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  #51  
Old 01-17-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
They should feel neutral. Nothing wrong with being a feminine man or a masculine woman.
What if they don't like being considered a feminine man or a masculine woman?

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Masculine and feminine aren't necessarily only biological. Characteristics that are purely sociological that are associated more with one gender than the other in 2019 are still gendered. A tomboy is a girl or woman that has more masculine traits than the average woman in the US.
Yes, that's the premise of any conversation about masculinity or femininity.

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Nothing wrong with that.
Ask Filbert's friend whether there was anything wrong with being treated as a girly-man.
  #52  
Old 01-17-2019, 03:56 PM
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I'm not arguing that you are wrong in your observation that power tools are "blokey" things. I'm arguing that making any assumptions or decisions based on that observation is in fact an act of upholding "toxic masculinity".

Or to put it another way, any time you say "well, men are just like X," you are promoting a paradigm that accepts that men cannot help but be inclined to act in certain ways because of their biology.
Are you saying that though because you don't agree that there are such things are traits or preferences very much more often expressed in one sex than the other, or because you're concerned about our society's predilection for pushing people into assigned gender boxes that they don't fit in?

If it's the former, I disagree with you - if the latter then I agree that this is a problem, but I don't think that "lets not define things as masculine" is the solution to it.

Lets take aggression. Men are, on average, more aggressive than women. I actually think that's true, statistically. Aggression can be toxic - when it's used to dominate people - but it can be channeled into useful directions like jobs with lots of physical activity - firefighters, carpenters, mountain rescuers - or where to be successful you need to win against opposition (trial lawyers). It would be useful if we had a term like "aggression" that encompassed these not-necessarily-toxic aspects of the trait - the determination to fuckin-well-WIN at whatever cost - while leaving behind the definitely toxic aspects of it (not caring whose bodies you tread on on the way up)

So then when somebody - probably a male somebody - notices 'wow, I have a shit-ton of aggression in me', instead of saying 'Be less aggressive! Aggression is part of toxic masculinity!' we can be saying 'Here's the template for non-toxic masculinity. This aggress-ish kind of behaviour that still has all the useful determined-to-win stuff, but misses out on the toxic bullying stuff'. If you label that as 'a part of masculinity' then you increase the chance that guys are willing to go down that path. Being "masculine" is actually important to some guys. I don't particularly identify with how that feels personally - being feminine is exceedingly UNimportant to me - but I see that it is so. I think it's easier to define a "non-toxic masculinity" that's actually attractive to people who find masculinity important, rather than to totally stamp out the concept of masculinity altogether - because people who find masculinity important will resist that.

All this, combined with a healthy dose of "letting people do their own thing" rather than whacking them over the head with gender roles that they actually don't care particularly about. I support having the concept of masculinity as an option that people can choose, not as a compulsory straightjacket associated with having a penis.
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  #53  
Old 01-17-2019, 04:48 PM
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I'm a straight female. As such, I appreciate masculinity as a quality. It isn't just sexy, it is vital. A feminine-inspired human culture has many wonderful (and very under-explored) aspects, but also lacks something essential. What is that essential thing, I am wondering.

I'm also a feminist, and it is very clear to me that as a culture, maybe as a species, many facets of what we shelter under the umbrella of that word are causing an enormous amount of suffering, for women, children, men themselves, and the planet as a whole, really.

This thread is hopefully about the positive sides of masculinity. What do you see as a really GOOD thing about masculinity that femininity doesn't traditionally have?

I would ask that this please please not devolve into woman-bashing, however subtle -- just don't mention us is a good strategy -- and that we agree that violence is a bad thing, for the purposes of this thread.

Women and men tend to be good at different things. If you disagree, please stop reading now as you might be offended. Some things women seem to be better at, other things men. Together we make a great team!

For whatever reason men have shaped the world the way it is. Religion, Science, Math, Music, Art, ect.. Given this is factual, but not without some exceptions, being born male gave the world something femininity doesn't traditionally have.
  #54  
Old 01-17-2019, 04:53 PM
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Women and men tend to be good at different things. If you disagree, please stop reading now as you might be offended. Some things women seem to be better at, other things men. Together we make a great team!

For whatever reason men have shaped the world the way it is. Religion, Science, Math, Music, Art, ect.. Given this is factual, but not without some exceptions, being born male gave the world something femininity doesn't traditionally have.
It's been my experience that outside of stuff like "producing sperm", when men tend to be better at something than women it's just because the culture has been pushing men towards the thing and women away from it. As a result of that, calling such things "masculine" seems like a lie. For example, it's my understanding that math and science tend to be male-dominated fields. Calling math and science masculine is a lie.
  #55  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:10 PM
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For whatever reason men have shaped the world the way it is. Religion, Science, Math, Music, Art, ect.. Given this is factual, but not without some exceptions, being born male gave the world something femininity doesn't traditionally have.
I believe that something is called privilege.
  #56  
Old 01-17-2019, 06:13 PM
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Still pretty toxic in some circumstances I'm afraid. If you're not physically stronger than women, by that definition, you can't be a gentleman. No muscle? Not a real man.
While it doesn't quite fit with Shodan's definition, I think that's not necessarily true, and a pretty small tweak allows the weak to be chivalrous.

It's not necessary to be stronger than an innocent/weak party to defend them chivalrously. It's simply necessary for their assailant to be stronger.

Non-toxic masculinity is embracing the fact that when the ship goes down, you get the women and children onto lifeboats first. You don't have to be a physically strong man to do that. You just have to stand down. You don't have to be stronger than the ocean to save people from it.
  #57  
Old 01-17-2019, 06:41 PM
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  #58  
Old 01-17-2019, 06:53 PM
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It's been my experience that outside of stuff like "producing sperm", when men tend to be better at something than women it's just because the culture has been pushing men towards the thing and women away from it. As a result of that, calling such things "masculine" seems like a lie. For example, it's my understanding that math and science tend to be male-dominated fields. Calling math and science masculine is a lie.
You can argue 1+1 = 3, and water doesn't start to boil at 212 degrees Fahrenheit if you wish. Nothing I wrote was false. Blaming culture which has changed over the years just doesn't wash.
  #59  
Old 01-17-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
Non-toxic masculinity is embracing the fact that when the ship goes down, you get the women and children onto lifeboats first. You don't have to be a physically strong man to do that. You just have to stand down. You don't have to be stronger than the ocean to save people from it.
I would argue that non-toxic masculinity doesn't conflate women with children.
  #60  
Old 01-17-2019, 07:14 PM
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What if they don't like being considered a feminine man or a masculine woman?
Then that's unfortunate.

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Yes, that's the premise of any conversation about masculinity or femininity.
What?

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Ask Filbert's friend whether there was anything wrong with being treated as a girly-man.
What?
  #61  
Old 01-17-2019, 07:39 PM
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So far, a lot of posters seem to be saying that there is no such thing as masculinity at all. Am I reading that correctly?
If masculinity and femininity don't exist, trans and genderqueer are nonsense.
  #62  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ancient Erudite View Post
Women and men tend to be good at different things. If you disagree, please stop reading now as you might be offended. Some things women seem to be better at, other things men. Together we make a great team!

For whatever reason men have shaped the world the way it is. Religion, Science, Math, Music, Art, ect.. Given this is factual, but not without some exceptions, being born male gave the world something femininity doesn't traditionally have.
Precisely.
Nothing wrong with being either. Just different.
  #63  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:56 PM
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I believe that something is called privilege.
If so who granted it?

Oh nobody, men took it because on the whole, they were naturally more aggressive.
Perhaps naturally more interested in some of those things as well.

Arguing that there aren't masculine or feminine traits is nonsense. The words exist and are able to be understood because the vast majority of people agree about what they mean.

Otherwise I might as well ask what are some non toxic glipglorbian traits.
  #64  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:03 PM
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To answer the OP, I fully agree with those who said something along the lines of;
Toxic depends on dosage.

So be it feminine or masculine traits too much is toxic.
They are like water, we need them both to live but too much is toxic and way too much will just drown someone.

So take whatever traits you think are masculine ,dial them down to just a little more than you think you are comfortable with ( because if you are feminine your tendency will be to dial them too far down) and there you go.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-17-2019 at 09:03 PM.
  #65  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:28 PM
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Positive and negative masculine traits can very well be the same thing. Some women will adore, want and expect their partner to act all protective at all times. Others will hate this paternalistic jerk and the way he constantly infantilises them, for instance. And people can't really change their attitude by 180° depending on who they're involved with. So, some masculine attitudes will be highly sought after by some while being classified as "toxic masculinity" by others.

The mistake, in my opinion, is the assumption that there's some ideal way of "being a man" that would be an objective improvement and satisfying for all women. That's this erroneous idea that leads many women to accuse feminism of actively trying to "castrate" men. They want their males in version 1.1 and resent being told that they're internalizing paternalism by not wanting the new 2.3 version.

The wording of the OP, who assumes the existence of specifically masculine characteristics (she thinks that a "feminine inspired" culture would be strikingly different) that she perceives as non just desirable but needed leads me to believe that she belongs to this category of women who aspire to differentiated (and somewhat traditional) gender roles.

It would be ample time in my opinion, in an era where divergences from the norm are more and more considered as acceptable, that people stop assuming that their personal preferences (on this subject like on many others) should naturally be everybody else's preference too and that anybody disagreeing must be flawed in some way. There's no "ideal masculinity" and there will never be.



By the way, I noticed that many people asked : "but why would this peculiar trait be considered specifically masculine?" . There's an unfounded assumption here too, IMO. Which is that most traits (including masculine traits in this case) are determined by culture and would just change if only the culture evolved. This idea being driven as much by current trendy beliefs about the omnipotence of culture as by traditional beliefs about free will. But as I wrote recently, we have no fucking idea of what is determined by biology and what is determined by environment, and to which extent. We know pretty much nothing about the human brain, and most statements made about this topic aren't even hypothesis but wild guesses based mostly on the person expressing them's idea of how things should ideally be, and in support of their preferred narrative. It is totally possible that some traits, even some extremely specific ones, considered as "masculine" are indeed driven by biology and will be "naturally" present in most men. It's not at all a given that gender roles are purely cultural constructs.
I agree with you. Aggression, stoicism, assertiveness can be good or bad depending on degree and most importantly context.
Thing is, posters like the OP, see every male action as toxic. They have a fundamental failure to appreciate the point about degree and context.

Trying to pick up girls at a bar: fine
Trying to pick up girls at a funeral: bad
Not meekly walking away when getting a negative: Fine
Persisting when it should be obvious it won't Change: Not fine

Unfortunately, these things have to be learned. Degrees and context is not something which are always obvious. Figuring them out requires experience and maturity. The OP, and most posters here, seem to think that is something which comes imprinted from birth.

I feel for the young males nearing adulthood today. It’s a difficult enough time, but these days, when pretty much every thing they do can be and is labelled “toxic”...
  #66  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:30 PM
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Thing is, posters like the OP, see every male action as toxic.
Well, there's a sentence that describes literally nobody in this thread.
  #67  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:36 PM
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It's been my experience that outside of stuff like "producing sperm", when men tend to be better at something than women it's just because the culture has been pushing men towards the thing and women away from it. As a result of that, calling such things "masculine" seems like a lie. For example, it's my understanding that math and science tend to be male-dominated fields. Calling math and science masculine is a lie.
If I were to cite all the studies that prove this wrong we would have pages upon pages of just the cites showing the natural abilities of men and women differ.

Many of those differences pre-dispose each gender to excel in different things.

A great many are simply biological and can't even remotely possibly have anything to do with culture.

For example, RCA labs accidentally discovered while developing TV remotes that birthing age women can hear a frequency nobody else can.
Accidentally repeatedly startling a young woman working in the lab. Further studies found this range is abundant in a babies cry.

Men tend to better at long distance general navigation, women tend to be better at short distance specific navigation.

Women can easily identify more shades and hues of colors.

So women tend to be better at some things and men tend to be better at other things.

There is no doubt that biological differences influence psychological differences.

What modern life and culture has done is heavily diminish the importance of advantages of traits on either side to the point it is now often trivial whether you are masculine or feminine.

Still, teamwork makes the dream work.
  #68  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:46 PM
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I think the op can really only be answered by the straight women here.

What are the characteristics of men as men that you find attractive romantically, that are part of why you are romantically attracted to men and not women, that are not physical characteristics?
  #69  
Old 01-17-2019, 09:52 PM
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Not that I'm saying people should be forced into social roles they do not want, but I'd label them as:

Toxic Masculinity: selfish, greedy, cruel, unable to express or process emotions, homophobic, sexist, indifferent to the well being of others, dark triad, etc.

Positive Masculinity: competent, wise, self-sacrificing, helpful, leadership skills, nurturing the next generation, protective, resilient.
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  #70  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:01 PM
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I hope this doesn't come across as a threadshit, as it's really not intended to be, but I think the concept of "non-toxic" masculinity is a bit of a red herring.

There is no way to encourage gender-specific behavior that is not toxic in some way. Any example of truly non-toxic masculinity I've seen is just "how any person, male or not, should behave."
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I tend to find male people physically attractive, and the physical traits I tend to find attractive in them are those I'm unlikely to see in a female person. But that's maleness, not masculinity.


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I think the op can really only be answered by the straight women here.

What are the characteristics of men as men that you find attractive romantically, that are part of why you are romantically attracted to men and not women, that are not physical characteristics?
None. Because while there are mental characteristics of a man that I find attractive, I find them attractive in a woman as well; they may be sexy-attractive or not, but that's got to do with my reaction to other stuff such as marital status and maleness. Being quick with a quip; being analytical; never ever ever starting a sentence with "boys/girls/men/women can't..." that's not directly related to biology... oh yeah, being capable of doing electrical work (I'll plumb, I'll mason, I'll assemble furniture, but I don't do sparky stuff)... being polite; knowing when it's ok to stop being polite...
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Last edited by Nava; 01-17-2019 at 10:06 PM.
  #71  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:09 PM
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Not that I'm saying people should be forced into social roles they do not want, but I'd label them as:

Toxic Masculinity: selfish, greedy, cruel, unable to express or process emotions, homophobic, sexist, indifferent to the well being of others, dark triad, etc.

Positive Masculinity: competent, wise, self-sacrificing, helpful, leadership skills, nurturing the next generation, protective, resilient.
And how are those not "positive" (are you sure?) female characteristics? Specially since several of them are part of the so-called "traditional female characteristics". Stuff such as "you're the daughter, therefore you'll leave your life aside to take care of your parents (or, depending on the culture, your in-laws)" is something many of us have been fighting our whole lives.

Last edited by Nava; 01-17-2019 at 10:10 PM.
  #72  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:30 PM
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And how are those not "positive" (are you sure?) female characteristics? .
Good point. I don't know.
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  #73  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:34 PM
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I won't go so far as to say there aren't any such women. I will go so far as to say there are very few such women, and that they are not anything like the average.
  • Most men are stronger than most women.
  • Some men are stronger than all women.
  • No women are stronger than all men.
  • Very few women are stronger than most men.
Can you explain what the ability to lift heavy things has to do with success? Or why lifting heavy things should be a factor in determining who should protect who?
  #74  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:49 PM
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Someone may have mentioned this already, and if so I apologize...

Whenever someone asks about non-toxic masculinity, I point them to this picture. It's Chris Hemsworth, Tom Hiddleston, and director Taika Waititi all taking a nap together in a big man-pile snuggle.

This picture is important to me, because when I was a child this kind of relationship was not permitted. If you so much as touched another man, even unintentionally, you risked being labelled as "gay." This meant: (A) Being 'gay' was literally the worst thing a man could possibly be. It may sound trivial now, but if you were labelled as 'gay' that meant you were a social pariah and others could attack you - or even murder you - with impunity. And also (B) it was possible for someone to identify you as 'gay' against your consent. This idea is so self-evidently bizarre that it is almost impossible to consider it now, but at the time being 'gay' was something other people decided you were.

Anyway, when I look at this picture of Chris Hemsworth, I think about two things:

(1) Why should a man be afraid of another man? Hemsworth and Hiddleston have worked together for almost a decade as co-stars. But if they're tired and they want to take a nap, it's like, 'Eww, no, don't touch me or someone will think we're gay.' (I want to say, "Really???" but remember that 'Friends' did a whole episode about how men aren't allowed to nap with other men.)

(2) Who gets to define what it means to be 'masculine?' Chris Hemsworth is fucking THOR. I'm pretty sure Thor gets to define what 'masculine' actually means. If someone was really confused about how to be 'masculine,' who else would they pick for a role model?
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Old 01-17-2019, 10:49 PM
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If you come up with a set of traits and label them masculine, how should a man who doesn't have some or all of those traits feels about being adjudged by implication "not masculine" or "feminine"? Or how should a woman who has some or all of those traits feel about being adjudged by implication "masculine" or "not feminine"?
In every primitive society, there was variation between expected behavior of men and women. Broadly speaking, men usually did all or most warfare, tribal leadership, fishing, hunting, and travel. Women did all or most child-rearing, food preparation, clothing-making. These roles were not exactly identical in all societies, but they were broadly similar. (See the list of human universals by anthropologist D.E. Brown). Thus, this cannot be socially constructed. Instead it's rooted in biology.

And it's enforced in various ways. In some primitive societies, people men could be killed if their behavior didn't conform to expectations for males, and women likewise if their behavior did not conform to expectations for females.

All in this country should give thanks that we don't live in primitive societies, but rather in the world's greatest civilization ever, which is modern western civilization. And in modern western civilization people have more individual freedom to shape their own lives than any other people anywhere have ever had. Among other choices, a man can choose to completely reject any behaviors widely viewed as masculine, and a women can choose to completely reject any behaviors widely viewed as feminine. You can even make a career and become famous for doing so, in some cases. (This not so true in most non-western countries.)

Nonetheless, because of biology, group differences between men and women remain in every western country and always will. Men are more likely to become soldiers, scientists, airline pilots, professional athletes, or world-class chess players. Women are more likely to become teachers (especially for younger children), artists, caretakers, or stay-at-home parents.

So what if you're a man who wants to wear a sparkly pink dress or be an elementary school teacher, or a woman who wants to fly fighter jets? Be grateful that you live in the one society in human history that allows you the full ability to choose such things and accept that it makes you different from the norm for your gender, because that won't change.
  #76  
Old 01-17-2019, 11:10 PM
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Thing is, posters like the OP, see every male action as toxic. They have a fundamental failure to appreciate the point about degree and context.
This is just so contrary to reality, that I have to repeat Miller's point.

No one, not the OP nor anyone else in this thread, has made this claim. In fact, this is the complete opposite of what is being said in this thread.

The OP asks for and clearly expects examples of non-toxic masculinity. Most of the answers have been about providing such. And a few posters say that it's the same thing as when non-men are non-toxic.

No one has at any point argued that all actions by men are toxic. Hell, a majority of the responders in this thread are men., and none of them have been accused of being toxic, nor do they likely think of themselves that way.

I'd call this a strawman, but I've seen it so often that I'm convinced you believe what you say. But why? No one has said anything like this. It doesn't follow rationally from anything anyone has said.

But you feel like your masculinity is under attack. And, if you can figure out why that is, I think you'd gain a much better understanding of the topics under discussion.

And for anyone who is offended by what I have to say: I can't think of any better way to say it.
  #77  
Old 01-17-2019, 11:24 PM
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Can you explain what the ability to lift heavy things has to do with success? Or why lifting heavy things should be a factor in determining who should protect who?
Do we really have to explain this to you? I mean, you do realize even among same-gender combatants, they are still divided into weight classes? Okay, I'll spell it out for you: The combatant who is stronger, faster, and larger will tend to win in MOST trials. The smaller, slower, weaker combatants will tend to lose MOST trials, unless they get unexpectedly lucky or they possess superior kung-fu skills that allow them to overcome their inherent disadvantages.

You may also be surprised to learn that most basketball players are exceedingly tall. I suppose there might be some short-statured basketball players whose superior talents and athleticism allow them to succeed, but if all other things are equal, the taller basketball player will be at an advantage.

So it occurs to me to be self-evident that if we have two genders, and one gender is TYPICALLY larger, faster, and stronger than the other, that gender would hold the greater advantage in combat. This is why mixed-gender boxing is not a thing. And from a purely anecdotal perspective, when conducting mixed-gender Army combatives training it has been my experience that the female combatant's best outcome is to merely survive until the end of the match.

So what's the point? TBH, I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but I'll take a stab at it.

The big problem with masculinity and toxic masculinity is that these are ideas we have inherited from earlier times in civilization. For 99.9% of human history, it has made perfect sense for the men to be combatants simply because the average female combatant could not compete with her male counterpart. And for 99.9% of human history, it was NECESSARY for a person to be prepared for violence on a daily basis. In most human societies, encountering someone who is not a member of your family was likely to be a fatal event. We are lucky to live in the modern age when (A) state governments generally hold a monopoly on violence, (B) we are accustomed to interacting with strangers without the threat of violence, and (C) technology has brought us closer to parity between combatants, such that physical superiority is not necessarily decisive.

The major problem is that the transition from primitive societies (in which warfare is the norm rather than the exception) to modern societies (in which most individuals will never encounter an act of violence) has been neither abrupt nor linear. Rather, we have the situation in which certain cultures or subcultures retain behaviors from earlier eras or different circumstances. The current disagreement is a step in the process of deciding which practices are still relevant and useful, and which may be safely discarded. The question of whether females should be permitted as soldiers (for example) is often framed as a matter of equality or opportunity, but a utilitarian might frame it as a question of whether modern technology and doctrine have reached the point where the biological imbalance between male and female is no longer relevant to the outcome of the combat.
  #78  
Old 01-17-2019, 11:35 PM
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And now to answer the OP's question.

Take anything that is considered "toxic masculinity." Now look at the underlying idea, without all the garbage. And then think about a way that idea could be useful and helpful to society. That's non-toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is not "toxic things men do" so much as it is "the idea of masculinity being used to do toxic things." Under the surface (often deep under the surface) is an idea that is actually good.

Why are they masculine? Because that's how society sees them. As society changes, it may change. Maybe gender is entirely a social construct, and gender identity is a reaction to that construct, and would go away if the social aspect went away. Or maybe there is something that is actually different--caused by our biology. Either way, this is about the here-and-now, not the future.

And, right now, aggression, honor culture, stoicism, resisting peer pressure, and, yes, protecting the less fortunate are all masculine traits. They can be wrong or right.

Trying to destroy the concept of masculinity is what "they" accuse us of doing, but it's not what we do. Who of the men posting here are willing to say "I am not a man?" Who is willing to give up every socially-assigned male pursuit? How many of you wear dresses and frills and makeup, and not when you are feeling feminine?

Who defines it? Like every other social concept: society. They define race just as much as they define gender.

This all probably sounds proud, like I'm "bigging up" men.

Good.
  #79  
Old 01-18-2019, 12:19 AM
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Do we really have to explain this to you? I mean, you do realize even among same-gender combatants, they are still divided into weight classes? Okay, I'll spell it out for you: The combatant who is stronger, faster, and larger will tend to win in MOST trials. The smaller, slower, weaker combatants will tend to lose MOST trials, unless they get unexpectedly lucky or they possess superior kung-fu skills that allow them to overcome their inherent disadvantages.
Yes, you do have to explain it to me. Who gives a shit about "combat"? You can be the meanest, strongest guy that ever lived, and I can easily just shoot you with the gun I have. Technology makes "strongest" or "fastest" meaningless. In today's day and age, "strongest" just means "I can lift more heavy weights than you". Who cares? Why is how much you can lift important to me?
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:02 AM
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Yes, you do have to explain it to me. Who gives a shit about "combat"? You can be the meanest, strongest guy that ever lived, and I can easily just shoot you with the gun I have. Technology makes "strongest" or "fastest" meaningless. In today's day and age, "strongest" just means "I can lift more heavy weights than you". Who cares? Why is how much you can lift important to me?

Good lord, did you even bother reading my post? I mean, clearly you must have stopped at the very first sentence. How about I quote you the remainder of my post, but this time I'll put the important parts in big, bold letters so you don't miss it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB99
The big problem with masculinity and toxic masculinity is that these are ideas we have inherited from earlier times in civilization. For 99.9% of human history, it has made perfect sense for the men to be combatants simply because the average female combatant could not compete with her male counterpart. And for 99.9% of human history, it was NECESSARY for a person to be prepared for violence on a daily basis. In most human societies, encountering someone who is not a member of your family was likely to be a fatal event. We are lucky to live in the modern age when (A) state governments generally hold a monopoly on violence, (B) we are accustomed to interacting with strangers without the threat of violence, and (C) technology has brought us closer to parity between combatants, such that physical superiority is not necessarily decisive.

The major problem is that the transition from primitive societies (in which warfare is the norm rather than the exception) to modern societies (in which most individuals will never encounter an act of violence) has been neither abrupt nor linear. Rather, we have the situation in which certain cultures or subcultures retain behaviors from earlier eras or different circumstances. The current disagreement is a step in the process of deciding which practices are still relevant and useful, and which may be safely discarded. The question of whether females should be permitted as soldiers (for example) is often framed as a matter of equality or opportunity, but a utilitarian might frame it as a question of whether modern technology and doctrine have reached the point where the biological imbalance between male and female is no longer relevant to the outcome of the combat.

HOLY JESUS FUCK! The exact thing you are bitching about is RIGHT GODDAMNED THERE in my post. I mean, I realize there are a lot of big words in the way so you might have gotten confused by the time you made it all the way to the end. Literacy is AMAZING, isn't it???

Last edited by JB99; 01-18-2019 at 02:03 AM.
  #81  
Old 01-18-2019, 02:02 AM
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Yes, you do have to explain it to me. Who gives a shit about "combat"? You can be the meanest, strongest guy that ever lived, and I can easily just shoot you with the gun I have. Technology makes "strongest" or "fastest" meaningless. In today's day and age, "strongest" just means "I can lift more heavy weights than you". Who cares? Why is how much you can lift important to me?
FYI,military strength and physical fitness requirements have only increased in the last few decades.
Modern soldiers regularly carry more than 50 kg.
  #82  
Old 01-18-2019, 02:34 AM
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I was watching a discussion between jordan petersen and josh rogan about dating and they were saying guys need to be more masculine because women like the alpha male.

This is possibly the worst possible advice you could give young men about dating, IMO, next only to "Don't bother to wash". Because so many young men try too hard to look masculine and at best come across as jerks.

And it made me realize that, IMO, masculinity, and "being a man" is tied up with a level of maturity and self-assurance. Anyone trying to appear masculine will seem boyish to me.
(This is not to imply women are not mature, very obviously. I don't believe positive traits of masculinity, and positive traits of femininity or people in general, are exclusive)
  #83  
Old 01-18-2019, 05:12 AM
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I was watching a discussion between jordan petersen and josh rogan about dating and they were saying guys need to be more masculine because women like the alpha male.

This is possibly the worst possible advice you could give young men about dating, IMO, next only to "Don't bother to wash". Because so many young men try too hard to look masculine and at best come across as jerks.
And it made me realize that, IMO, masculinity, and "being a man" is tied up with a level of maturity and self-assurance. Anyone trying to appear masculine will seem boyish to me.
(This is not to imply women are not mature, very obviously. I don't believe positive traits of masculinity, and positive traits of femininity or people in general, are exclusive)
It's complicated.
I've seen many guys display what would be considered "toxic-masculinity" traits, and yet they would attract women. Stereotypical nice guys finish last.
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:52 AM
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I was watching a discussion between jordan petersen and josh rogan about dating and they were saying guys need to be more masculine because women like the alpha male.

This is possibly the worst possible advice you could give young men about dating, IMO, next only to "Don't bother to wash". Because so many young men try too hard to look masculine and at best come across as jerks.

And it made me realize that, IMO, masculinity, and "being a man" is tied up with a level of maturity and self-assurance. Anyone trying to appear masculine will seem boyish to me.
(This is not to imply women are not mature, very obviously. I don't believe positive traits of masculinity, and positive traits of femininity or people in general, are exclusive)
Oh for fucks sake. Jordan Peterson? That charlatan is the arbiter of what is and is not appropriatiy masculine?
  #85  
Old 01-18-2019, 06:30 AM
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Can you explain what the ability to lift heavy things has to do with success? Or why lifting heavy things should be a factor in determining who should protect who?
Um you really can't make the correlation between having physical strength and the ability to protect?
  #86  
Old 01-18-2019, 06:43 AM
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You'd be surprised how often the idea is a deterrent.

Besides you can't just shoot someone Everytime they say "what are you gonna do about it" because they won't leave some girl alone.

You can't be a 90lb bouncer because hey you can just shoot people.

And if both people have guns than literally being the fastest makes you much more likely to win.
  #87  
Old 01-18-2019, 06:54 AM
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Folks should realize that anything can be toxic at high enough doses
Ooh, great point!
  #88  
Old 01-18-2019, 07:22 AM
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Because you are making the argument that the benevolent sexism claim that women are weak and need to be protected is a fundamental of nature without evidence and while claiming it is non-exploitative which is not true.
Asking for a cite that men, in general, are bigger and stronger than women is more than slightly preposterous. So is the idea that protection necessarily involves exploitation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
I'm not arguing that you are wrong in your observation that power tools are "blokey" things. I'm arguing that making any assumptions or decisions based on that observation is in fact an act of upholding "toxic masculinity".

Or to put it another way, any time you say "well, men are just like X," you are promoting a paradigm that accepts that men cannot help but be inclined to act in certain ways because of their biology.
Just the opposite is true.

We make the observation that men, on average, differ from women in various ways. Non-toxic masculinity, or chivalry, decides based on that observation how men should act. It does not assert that men cannot help what they do. It says very clearly and directly that they can help it, and should, and expects them to.

That's not an act of upholding "toxic masculinity". It's an act of upholding non-toxic masculinity, and it is doing quite the reverse of what you allege.

Men are not the helpless victims of their biology, and chivalry does not allege that they are.

Regards,
Shodan
  #89  
Old 01-18-2019, 08:13 AM
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“Every man I meet wants to protect me. I can't figure out what from.”

― Mae West


It's not that there's anything toxic about an individual male's chivalrous behavior (there isn't). It's at the collective level that it starts to look a bit like a protection racket. If there's a toxicity attached to the individual masculinity involved — according to the women who have discussed this with me w/regard to their personal experience thereof — it manifests in one of these forms:

• Guys trying to curtail her freedom and restrict her behavior for her own good, on the grounds that whatever she was about to do would put her in danger from Other Men;

• Guys expecting lots of gratitude and romantic delight at having a Hero defend her from those Other Men, and getting quite sour if she points out the protection-racket characteristics of the overall situation
  #90  
Old 01-18-2019, 08:38 AM
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I was watching a discussion between jordan petersen and josh rogan about dating and they were saying guys need to be more masculine because women like the alpha male.

This is possibly the worst possible advice you could give young men about dating, IMO, next only to "Don't bother to wash". Because so many young men try too hard to look masculine and at best come across as jerks.
Yep. So puff out your chest, take up more space in the room, deliberately forget to shave, and hock your dip into the nearest spitoon. Then when women aren't interested in you, the only possible explanation is that you aren't manly enough. So you can either admit that you are a pathetic loser who doesn't deserve to live, or you can double down on being even MORE stereotypically manly-er.

And then we get threads asking, "What is toxic masculinity?"
  #91  
Old 01-18-2019, 09:29 AM
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About Chivalry-There was this article I read last year titled Chivalry Isn't What You Think It Is! A Woman Explains. It is about the role of chivalry in modern times, both what it current is, and what it should be. One passage reads
Quote:
Because needing help is not week. And lending help is not a favor. There is a term for it-it is called humanity. In fact, being in a position where you can extend your meaningful help to someone is one of the greatest privileges of human existence, gender notwithstanding. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, to put it mildly, a douchebag.
  #92  
Old 01-18-2019, 09:36 AM
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I think there is also something here in the idea of who is defining the concept of what makes you masculine or feminine. When women post about how much work they have to put in to getting ready for work each day, the high cost (money, time and effort) involved in looking the way society expects them to look, I feel like they mostly mean that they don't want to be judged as un-feminine by their female peers. When men talk about not being able to show weakness, share feeling, touch their male friends, etc, they mean they don't want to be judged as un-masculine, mostly by other men. This isn't to say there aren't men and women judging the opposite sex, but I think a lot of the flack comes from folks of the same sex as the person being judged.
  #93  
Old 01-18-2019, 09:43 AM
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When women post about how much work they have to put in to getting ready for work each day, the high cost (money, time and effort) involved in looking the way society expects them to look, I feel like they mostly mean that they don't want to be judged as un-feminine by their female peers.
Is this true? I thought it was because of standards set by males, not females...but I'm a male myself. What say the females?
  #94  
Old 01-18-2019, 09:48 AM
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There's a great book called Buffalo for the Broken Heart, by a guy who decides to turn his cattle ranch into a buffalo ranch, which I would recommend to virtually anyone. In it there is a scene (before he tries out the buffalo) where he spends some months off the ranch leaving it to be managed by a local, telling him very specifically not to let the cattle overgraze the pastures. When he comes back, it's horribly overgrazed, pasture is ruined, and he's just standing there with his mouth open and the local comes out looking worried and sheepish, and the author without saying a word just slugs him in fury. He slugs him a few more times for good measure, and then helps him up, they go have a beer together. There was nothing to be done, and nothing needed to be said.

I will frankly tell you that women never do that, in my experience.

Maybe this is cultural, and it obviously doesn't have infinite application, but to me it was an example of an extremely masculine but perfectly appropriate response. On both sides.

Should point out that this interchange had nothing to do with women.

Side note: I think there is such a thing as masculinity, and femininity. Both have good and bad aspects, especially in their extremes. Men and women, as individuals, each have both masculine and feminine traits, and men nearly always have more masculine ones and vice versa. No men have no feminine traits, and vice versa.
If you think physical assault is an appropriate response to someone who didn't do what was asked (and that resulted in damage), I'd hate to be your employee. If I had the time I'd open a pit thread. Yikes.
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Last edited by BwanaBob; 01-18-2019 at 09:49 AM.
  #95  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mijin
I was watching a discussion between jordan petersen and josh rogan about dating and they were saying guys need to be more masculine because women like the alpha male.

This is possibly the worst possible advice you could give young men about dating, IMO, next only to "Don't bother to wash". Because so many young men try too hard to look masculine and at best come across as jerks.
I think the mistake made, both by incels and MGTOW types and PUAs and such, as well as (for lack of a better term) radfems and such on the other side, is not to understand that there is a difference between toxic masculinity, and non-toxic. They are not about the same things.

A gentleman does not behave chivalrously as a dominance display, nor does he do it to pick up chicks. He doesn't do it to prove that he is a man. He does it because he is a man.

A good deal of my thinking on issues like this is shaped by my experience in judo and jujitsu. Especially it is shaped by the example of my beloved sensei Tom, and his understanding of the senpai-kohai system. Like anything else, it can be abused, but when it works it means that lower ranks respect the experience of the upper ranks, and also that upper ranks respect the inexperience of the lower. It goes both ways - lower ranks trust in the authority of the upper, and upper ranks are responsible for making sure that the trust is well earned.

Sensei was an absolute bug on this kind of thing. As I grew up, I started to understand why it was so important. In that atmosphere of controlled violence, it is vital that everyone understood that and why they could trust each other. It doesn't mean we didn't beat the crap out of each other - we did. But there were lines that were never, ever crossed. In our dojo, if you are there to hurt somebody you won't be there for long.

I was on both sides of the divide. I started as a white belt, as we all do, and learned that the upper ranks would beat on me as hard as necessary - and no harder. And would take the time to show me things, and I figured out that when they said something, they deserved to be taken seriously. And then I moved up the rankings, and also figured out "OK, so you can beat a white belt. BFD - what do either of you learn from doing that? Practice something new, so he's got a chance. And show him some of the stuff you already know."

And now I am old, but the lessons remain with me. If you want to prove you're the strongest, take the most responsibility.

Regards,
Shodan
  #96  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:29 AM
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Then that's unfortunate.
And there's your toxicity, right there. If I believe myself to be male in character through and through, then it's unnecessarily damaging for other people to examine my traits and tell me that I'm actually feminine.


Quote:
What?
Your definition of what is a tomboy is something that we all in this thread know and take as a given when discussing the issue


Quote:
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filbert View Post
I've got a good friend and former workmate who, due to a collection of health conditions, is really thin and has a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Working together, we'd get 'jokes' like 'Hey, Filbert, shake him upside down, see if he's got [missing item] in his pockets!' and 'Just chuck him over here would you?'

He got so sensitive about it, if there was anything needed doing like moving something heavy, he'd jump to do it before me, clearly desperate to prove his strength. In the worst case, he insisted on moving a table for me, even when I could lift it with one hand and he could barely move the thing, because he'd just got out of hospital the night before after being on an intravenous drip for a week. But hey, got to be strong or you're not a man.
  #97  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:38 AM
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If you want to prove you're the strongest, take the most responsibility.
So you take responsibility just to prove something to yourself, and not to benefit others? Do you feel diminished, less masculine, when you are forced to ask for help?
  #98  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:45 AM
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It's not that there's anything toxic about an individual male's chivalrous behavior (there isn't). It's at the collective level that it starts to look a bit like a protection racket. If there's a toxicity attached to the individual masculinity involved — according to the women who have discussed this with me w/regard to their personal experience thereof — it manifests in one of these forms:

• Guys trying to curtail her freedom and restrict her behavior for her own good, on the grounds that whatever she was about to do would put her in danger from Other Men;

• Guys expecting lots of gratitude and romantic delight at having a Hero defend her from those Other Men, and getting quite sour if she points out the protection-racket characteristics of the overall situation
Yup to all of this. Calling it a protection racket is spot on because sometimes I feel like chivalrous men are in a conspiracy with bad guys to ensure they always have a woman to rescue.
  #99  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:56 AM
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You can argue 1+1 = 3, and water doesn't start to boil at 212 degrees Fahrenheit if you wish. Nothing I wrote was false. Blaming culture which has changed over the years just doesn't wash.
So, you're saying that your arguments are similar to a claim that water starts to boil at 212 degrees - only true at sea level, but totally wrong in most other conditions, such as at high altitude?
  #100  
Old 01-18-2019, 11:55 AM
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From the Onion:

Woman Didn’t Know Progress On Toxic Masculinity Would Turn Boyfriend Into Such A Weepy Little Pansy
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