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  #201  
Old 04-09-2019, 10:10 AM
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I'm pretty sure it would depress African-American and Latino turnout, especially among the more-reliable 35+ crowd. The evangelical whites (those who might have a problem with a gay man) aren't voting for a Democrat anyway, but those Latino and AA voters who identify as either evangelical or very religious are Dem voters, but I don't think they'd come out in very large numbers for a gay man. I think you'd lose a significant number of Latino and AA voters (who just wouldn't show up) with Pete as the nominee.

I also don't think a gay man on top of the ticket would do well in union halls Dems need in the industrial midwest.

I understand the importance of being able to look past a person's gender/sex/color/etc, especially as Democrats, and in many ways we're getting there, but I just don't think 2020 is the year we want to test out if we're woke enough as a nation to elect a gay man.

I think Mayor Pete is great, by the way, and could absolutely see him being president someday. I just don't think he's the right choice to win back the industrial midwest and fire up Latino and AA voters. I think a white man at the top of the Dem ticket needs to be able to really, really connect with minority voters, and the gay mayor of South Bend, IN, is probably gonna struggle with that.

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  #202  
Old 04-09-2019, 10:25 AM
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Precisely. And when it happened, it turned out that 'a lot' was in fact a very small minority and that that issue was dwarfed by policy and character issues.
I came to the opposite conclusion. I do agree that the amount of swing based on Obama's societally-constructed race was less than the worst predictions, but the 2008 election seemed to mark an upsurge in blatantly racist rhetoric, organization, and memes, which hasn't stopped yet. There's so much blatant racism out there for everyone to see, and who know how much out there that we don't see, that I would think it would refute the idea that the real problem with America is insufficiently-woke liberals, but the adherents of that idea seem to have doubled down instead.
  #203  
Old 04-09-2019, 10:35 AM
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I point out again that in Chicago Lightfoot being gay didn’t hurt her with Black or Latinx voters.

Chasing religiously conservative Hispanic voters is not the path to victory.
  #204  
Old 04-09-2019, 10:43 AM
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I would also point out the Mayor Pete is deeply religious, and while he might not be the type to grab the evangelicals, I think his attempt to reclaim the "Religious Left" is on point.
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  #205  
Old 04-09-2019, 10:56 AM
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I would point out that Chicago is not representative of America as a whole. And also that I just don't think we should test this out at the presidential level against Trump with a white gay man. People running for mayor of Chicago aren't subject to right-wing smear campaigns like people running for president are. You know how easy it would be to target black and Latino voters with ads pointing out Pete's homosexuality, hammering home the fact that he is married to a man, ultimately chipping away at their support for him in the general?

And it's one thing to appeal to the religious left, of which I am a member, but they're already ok with gay people. Religious blacks and latinos don't neatly fit into that category of "religious left." Socially they're a lot more conservative, and fall a lot closer to the white evangelical view of homosexuality.
  #206  
Old 04-09-2019, 12:05 PM
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I’m not going to draw too many conclusions from the Lightfoot win. First, Chicago has a huge LGBT community, the Pride Parade draws a million people and forces the Chicago Cubs to not schedule a home game that day. When we the last time you ever heard of pro sports taking a back seat to anyone?

Second, the Lightfoot election was a bit of an oddity. She and Toni Preckwinkle got the most votes in a plurality in a massive field of candidates. If you read the mayoral thread, you’ll see most of us agreed that Preckwinkle only had the support of the unions and was despised because of an ill fated soda tax rammed through 2 days after the shock of the Trump win.

I really like Mayor Pete, so let’s see if he can continue his ascent. Quite frankly, it’s going to a rough road to win in 2020 as I think brain drain has made the upper Midwest less blue. At least there are unlikely to be many votes for 3rd party spoilers in 2020.
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  #207  
Old 04-09-2019, 02:27 PM
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... Socially they're a lot more conservative, and fall a lot closer to the white evangelical view of homosexuality.
I do not disagree with that but I think their issue is with policies not the individuals or the identity pee se. A straight Hispanic who is strong for gay marriage trans rights and such will be no better to worse off than a fairly centrist white married gay man.

Yes Preckwinkle was a horrible candidate. But clearly gay was not disqualifying.
  #208  
Old 04-09-2019, 02:36 PM
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Fox News claimed that Buttigieg attacked Mike Pence "for no reason".
https://www.newsweek.com/pete-buttig...riends-1390308
  #209  
Old 04-09-2019, 07:41 PM
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The funny thing is--and I'm not even sure I can explain it to myself--that although I've made no secret of my opposition to Buttigieg, and even though I'm an atheist, I still really loved what he said about Pence for some reason:

Quote:
"If me being gay was a choice, it was a choice that was made far, far above my pay grade. And that's the thing I wish the Mike Pences of the world would understand. That if you got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me -- your quarrel, sir, is with my creator."
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  #210  
Old 04-09-2019, 11:29 PM
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Along with what Happy Lendervedder said, there are many Asian Christian voters in the US who also lean left on many issues but are quite stalwart when it comes to being pro-traditional marriage. I think the D's are really underestimating how deep-rooted opposition to LGBT is across many voting demographics in the US, even if aforementioned voting blocs don't dare say so out loud anymore.

Last edited by Velocity; 04-09-2019 at 11:30 PM.
  #211  
Old 04-10-2019, 01:15 AM
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I would point out that Chicago is not representative of America as a whole. ...
Pertinent to the question at hand though it shouldn't be. The question is if Black and Hispanic voters would decline to vote for someone who is gay on the basis of their disapproval of homosexuality. Specifically we care about those of those voters in the critical states of PA, MI, and WI.

Are Blacks and Hispanic voters very dissimilar to those who share their demographic label in those states? I don't think so.

We do not care if a white Georgian will vote against a gay candidate due to their being gay. It's not a change of their vote.

Velocity actually no there are not so many Asian Christian voters in the US who otherwise lean left except for "pro-traditional marriage" ... not enough in any key state as to be a group worth thinking about pandering to.
  #212  
Old 04-10-2019, 08:06 AM
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Wait; there is a politician named PRECKWINKLE?!

I'm all in for a Biden/Buttigieg ticket (though I'd like to hear more from Beto).

Listening to Mayor Pete speak on TV was like coming out of the Trumpian Dark Ages to an articulate Enlightenment.

And while I am fully cognizant of the historically crucial nature of the 2020 election and the vital need for a Democratic victory, I find it dismaying for any Democrat to try to calibrate the possibility of said victory by catering to biases within our Party's usual demographics.

Last edited by LennieB; 04-10-2019 at 08:07 AM.
  #213  
Old 04-10-2019, 08:09 AM
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Wait; there is a politician named PRECKWINKLE?!
Toni Preckwinkle

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And while I am fully cognizant of the historically crucial nature of the 2020 election and the vital need for a Democratic victory, I find it dismaying for any Democrat to try to calibrate the possibility of said victory by catering to biases within our Party's usual demographics.
One needs to account and prepare for those biases, which is not necessarily the same thing as catering to them.
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:58 AM
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I long ago made peace with the fact that an outspoken atheist like myself should not be the Democratic nominee, since I don't believe elections should be just about demonstrating our virtue and lack of bias, but should involve utilitarian compromises to be able to ultimately do the most good for the most people. So if we think someone who is not gay, but has good policy positions on gay rights, is much more likely to be able to beat Trump, we should choose them instead--even if on some fundamental level it is unfair.
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  #215  
Old 04-11-2019, 02:39 AM
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I'm all in for a Biden/Buttigieg ticket (though I'd like to hear more from Beto).

Listening to Mayor Pete speak on TV was like coming out of the Trumpian Dark Ages to an articulate Enlightenment.

I'm going for a totally "non-establishment" (by which I mean not the larger profiles of the Biden/Sanders/Warren/Harris camp) ticket of O'Rourke/Buttigieg.

Yeah noooooooo shit PG was a lucid breath of fresh air (when I first saw him i-viewed by Judy Woodruff about two months ago).

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The funny thing is--and I'm not even sure I can explain it to myself--that although I've made no secret of my opposition to Buttigieg, and even though I'm an atheist, I still really loved what he said about Pence for some reason:
Not an atheist, but neither do I hold a whole lotta stock in religion, but have to agree what an excellent statement that was, brilliantly throwing religion back in God-boy Pence's face to skewer his homophobia, and quite smartly differentiates (here, on Maher) how both parties approach religion, with the left focussing more on "protecting the downtrodden, standing up for the immigrant, and being skeptical of authority sometimes..." I'm sure this would resonate well even among most socially conservative church-followers who would otherwise have issues with him being gay.

I have no problem with his appearances on Fox - a good way to win converts by going right into the belly of the beast. Yes, he has his work cut out for him with such a task, obviously, however I'm sure he has gained traction with at least some of those viewers. I see this as an effective strategy.

I really hope the mayor gains traction over the coming 19 months - lotsa time. Oodles! Other than Biden, he's about the only dem who could stand up to президент Trump, optically, in a one-on-one debate, and come out looking like (to most viewers) that he freaking trounced Don.
  #216  
Old 04-11-2019, 02:16 PM
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Pete Buttigieg isn't really a Christian, because ... he's Episcopalian.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-...real-christian
  #217  
Old 04-11-2019, 03:09 PM
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Who is Pete Buttigieg?
The reincarnation of Mr. Ruda Duda.

  #218  
Old 04-14-2019, 04:28 PM
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I just watched his formal announcement from South Bend that he's officially running.

After hearing his speech, I'm going to be donating money to his campaign and volunteering.
  #219  
Old 04-14-2019, 04:35 PM
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Me too. He's just what this country needs.
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:41 PM
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I happened to catch that live on Youtube. It's nice to have a candidate that is positive and optimistic compared to the mire of the last few years. The live stream also featured live comments. The homophobia is strong with those opposed who were commenting. (They didn't exactly come across as Democratic voters anyway, but sheesh.)
  #221  
Old 04-14-2019, 06:18 PM
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Mayor Pete is the only candidate actively, vociferously, "reclaiming Democratic time" with the values of patriotism, morality, freedom, and democracy.

He will out-Christian the self-righteous hypocrite; out-soldier the bellicose coward; and out-smart the ignorant authoritarian.
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Old 04-15-2019, 05:23 AM
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I can't find the quote, but Beto gave a positive and supportive response to Pete's announcement - and Mayor of Austin Steve Adler choosing to endorse fellow mayor Pete rather than fellow Texan Beto. Mind you, it was probably said through gritted teeth but that's politics for you.
  #223  
Old 04-15-2019, 06:28 AM
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I happened to catch that live on Youtube. It's nice to have a candidate that is positive and optimistic compared to the mire of the last few years.
Yes. He's channelling Obama's positive attitude.

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Mayor Pete is the only candidate actively, vociferously, "reclaiming Democratic time" with the values of patriotism, morality, freedom, and democracy.
I do hope the others follow suit.
  #224  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:52 AM
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I only saw parts of his speech, but he has something there. Hope, optimism, love. You can feel that he's genuine. Up until yesterday, I thought yes he's a good guy but some people won't vote for a gay man, we need to run someone who can win. Now I say, fuck the bigots. This guy is the real deal, he can win and if people aren't okay with his sexual preference, we don't need their votes.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:26 PM
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The BBC has a new article on him here.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:37 PM
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Personally, I try not to discuss individual candidates - espec this early on. But among the mostly older, white, liberal-ish, suburban, midwestern folk I've socialized w/ lately, Pet's name is the primary one I've heard people mentioning.

Last Fri when someone brought this up, I asked, "What reason is there to pay interest/develop a preference at this stage?" He responded, "If you find you like someone, you can contribute to them." Made sense.

I've often said we need someone younger than Trump - or Biden/Warren/Sanders... Having said that - 37 sounds AWFULLY young! But I think the right person could be as ready at 37 as at 47 or 57. My wife thinks a white male has the best chances. But a gay white male? We'll see how strong the anti-gay bias is...

Harvard/Oxford... And McKinsey don't hire dummies. I MISS having an intelligent president...

Age and military experience will be a nice contrast to Trump. Religion will help out with folk who value that - and a SANE religion will be a good counter to Pence. Coming out of a red state...

I'm interested. But SO hard to see the point, with so much time to go, and with so few states in play.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:14 PM
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Personally, I try not to discuss individual candidates - espec this early on. But among the mostly older, white, liberal-ish, suburban, midwestern folk I've socialized w/ lately, Pet's name is the primary one I've heard people mentioning.

Last Fri when someone brought this up, I asked, "What reason is there to pay interest/develop a preference at this stage?" He responded, "If you find you like someone, you can contribute to them." Made sense.

I've often said we need someone younger than Trump - or Biden/Warren/Sanders... Having said that - 37 sounds AWFULLY young! But I think the right person could be as ready at 37 as at 47 or 57. My wife thinks a white male has the best chances. But a gay white male? We'll see how strong the anti-gay bias is...

Harvard/Oxford... And McKinsey don't hire dummies. I MISS having an intelligent president...

Age and military experience will be a nice contrast to Trump. Religion will help out with folk who value that - and a SANE religion will be a good counter to Pence. Coming out of a red state...

I'm interested. But SO hard to see the point, with so much time to go, and with so few states in play.
I would say that he overlaps with Obama on a lot of qualities (and checks a few more boxes), so for many voters I think he captures that vibe.

What I need to see from him are few more gears. Obama suffered from trying to compromise and bring people to the table, whereas McConnell took advantage of that and pissed all over him. I am concerned that Mayor Pete may not have the tools in his kit to deal with the snakes and bastards. It's not enough to be right, and positive and intelligent and all those things, one also needs to have the ability to subdue an opponent (whatEVER that may mean).
  #228  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:49 PM
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What I need to see from him are few more gears. Obama suffered from trying to compromise and bring people to the table, whereas McConnell took advantage of that and pissed all over him. I am concerned that Mayor Pete may not have the tools in his kit to deal with the snakes and bastards. It's not enough to be right, and positive and intelligent and all those things, one also needs to have the ability to subdue an opponent (whatEVER that may mean).
Interesting observation. I also was disappointed at the results of Obama's attempts to compromise. But I wonder if Obama's experience was sufficient for an intelligent person to not repeat it. President is - in large part - a manager. I think A LOT can be accomplished by surrounding oneself with the right people. A Veep and advisors comprised (in part) of legislative veterans and insiders - AND LISTENING TO THOSE ADVISORS - can go a long way.
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  #229  
Old 04-16-2019, 07:43 AM
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I'm pretty sure it would depress African-American and Latino turnout, especially among the more-reliable 35+ crowd. The evangelical whites (those who might have a problem with a gay man) aren't voting for a Democrat anyway, but those Latino and AA voters who identify as either evangelical or very religious are Dem voters, but I don't think they'd come out in very large numbers for a gay man. I think you'd lose a significant number of Latino and AA voters (who just wouldn't show up) with Pete as the nominee.

I also don't think a gay man on top of the ticket would do well in union halls Dems need in the industrial midwest.

I understand the importance of being able to look past a person's gender/sex/color/etc, especially as Democrats, and in many ways we're getting there, but I just don't think 2020 is the year we want to test out if we're woke enough as a nation to elect a gay man.

I think Mayor Pete is great, by the way, and could absolutely see him being president someday. I just don't think he's the right choice to win back the industrial midwest and fire up Latino and AA voters. I think a white man at the top of the Dem ticket needs to be able to really, really connect with minority voters, and the gay mayor of South Bend, IN, is probably gonna struggle with that.
Obama had a strong Latino turnout and Latinos tend to not react kindly to AAs. There's also many AAs within that minority who would see someone like Obama as "White" because he wasn't black enough for them. And this is ignoring the blatant fact that homosexuality is common in these minority groups. Just not as outwardly expressed as in whites due to social problems that may arise.


The fact Peter is polling and spoken about in 2nd and third place so far is surprising me. From what little I've gathered about him, I like some of his rough goals. At the end of the day, Biden, Buttigieg or Harris will get donations from me.

I think Bernie's heart is in the right place, but some of his ideas don't toe nicely with my field and well, can't vote that joker in.

Last edited by SOJA; 04-16-2019 at 07:45 AM.
  #230  
Old 04-16-2019, 11:46 AM
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I would say that he overlaps with Obama on a lot of qualities (and checks a few more boxes), so for many voters I think he captures that vibe.



What I need to see from him are few more gears. Obama suffered from trying to compromise and bring people to the table, whereas McConnell took advantage of that and pissed all over him. I am concerned that Mayor Pete may not have the tools in his kit to deal with the snakes and bastards. It's not enough to be right, and positive and intelligent and all those things, one also needs to have the ability to subdue an opponent (whatEVER that may mean).


I’m really hoping McConnell retires in 2020. While there certainly are snakes and bastards in the rest of the GOP caucus, McConnell took obstruction and breaking precedent to a new level. Plus, he’s shown a remarkable ability to keep his caucus together. I hate the man, but his stubbornness with ramming Kavanaugh through was an act of political genius.

Bill Clinton fumbled around his first couple years as President even with a good VEEP and a strong cabinet. Mayor Pete had better make a lot of private phone calls to him if he gets elected.
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  #231  
Old 04-16-2019, 06:06 PM
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I'm not sure US politics are mature enough to have a candidate whose name includes the word "butt", especially one who is homosexual. I'm not making a joke. A debate between Pete and Trump would be embarrassing for humanity.

As Chronos says, he's probably angling for a cabinet/governor/senator route to what will hopefully lead to his presidency.
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:43 PM
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I only saw parts of his speech, but he has something there. Hope, optimism, love. You can feel that he's genuine. Up until yesterday, I thought yes he's a good guy but some people won't vote for a gay man, we need to run someone who can win. Now I say, fuck the bigots. This guy is the real deal, he can win and if people aren't okay with his sexual preference, we don't need their votes.
Urgh, this is the problem.

I don't understand why people are cheering this guy, all I get is that all the other establishment candidates aren't really making a dent against Sanders, so CNN and the likes keep trying to showboat establishment candidates with a veneer of progressive values 'Oh look here's Beto, Latinos' love him' or 'Here's Buttigieg, he's Gay and a Rhodes scholar' or 'Kamala Harris, she's the female candidate who's gonna get Trump' Get ready for Biden next with 'Biden comes to the rescue'

So out of Biden, Beto, Buttgieg, Harris, Booker, how many of them supported and then walked back their previous commitment to free healthcare at the point of use?

This guy is nothing special, and you should be focusing more on wanting to overhaul the system of inequality than just trying to replace Trump with someone more respectable, in fact, you can do both.

Buttigieg is the Democrats' flavour of the month. Just don't ask what he stands for
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:02 PM
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I'm not sure US politics are mature enough to have a candidate whose name includes the word "butt", especially one who is homosexual. I'm not making a joke. A debate between Pete and Trump would be embarrassing for humanity.
I really don't think Donald would go down that road. I believe he is savvy enough to know that it would backfire. It would be a different story if he were making innuendoes about someone who was supposedly straight, but was the subject of rumors about being possibly gay or bisexual. He would definitely do something like that. What I don't believe he would do, is try to make political hay of someone who was openly gay. For the same reason he loves to bait Elizabeth Warren with the "Pocohontas" thing, but I believe he would never do the same thing if Warren were ACTUALLY and OBVIOUSLY a Native American.

Would his campaign have various surrogates and propaganda emphasizing the fact that Buttegieg is gay, to the Bible Belt demographic? YES, he would. Would Trump himself talk about it directly - even jokingly? I doubt it.

But say he did. Say during a debate, he made some kind of crack about it....I don't know, something like "Pete definitely knows how to find the best men for the job", or just pronounced his name like "butt" or "booty." Let's say he did it.

Pete has one of the most confident, authoritative, composed, "together" personas I have ever witnessed from any politician, let alone a younger one. I was astonished to hear it when I first heard an interview with him: I was expecting Pete Campbell, I got Don Draper, for those of you hip to Mad Men references. He has a baritone voice that would be right at home narrating a car commercial or doing color commentary on a football game. He has A+ body language, posture, and facial expressions. And it's not a facade. The guy is fucking SMART.

I do not believe he would brook any bullshit from Trump, who is 1/100th the man he is in terms of personal character, in a debate. I think Trump would be the one who wound up embarrassed...very, very embarrassed. Pete would knock him out of the park in a debate.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:38 PM
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Lamoral,

I hope you're right and the US gets President Buttigieg.

What's good about his body language, posture and facial expressions? Why does he give the impression of being smart?
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:01 PM
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He just has it. Either you have it or you don't, and he does. As to why he gives the impression of being smart? Seriously? The guy is a Rhodes scholar, Naval Intelligence officer, and speaks multiple languages. You don't get to do those things unless you're smart. But even if I knew NOTHING about his background and just heard him talk about some unrelated topic - he's articulate, he's sharp, you can just tell!
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:07 PM
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Lamoral,

I hope you're right and the US gets President Buttigieg.

What's good about his body language, posture and facial expressions? Why does he give the impression of being smart?
Not answering for Lamoral, but I did see Pete's speech when he threw his hat in the ring.

He's CONFIDENT. I think his 'body language' showed that he was very comfortable speaking to the crowd. It shows honesty, he speaks well. He doesn't trip over his own tongue. He knows that he doesn't have all the answers, but want's to work to find them. He is very much like Obama, but a little bit more down home and folksy.

Trump is confident too, but lacks every other thing. Trump is confident because he has a bunch of screaming morons supporting him that don't give a shit if he can string two sentences together.

Trump will be advised to not attack Buttigieg for his homosexuality. But Trump is just a 10 year old school yard bully. I doubt he will be able to help himself.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:14 PM
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I honestly also think he has sex appeal - mainly because of his voice. And the fact that he's gay is not going to make any difference to the thousands of women who will find the tone of his voice sexy. I'm not saying women (or gay men) would just mindlessly vote for someone based on that, but it's just another asset. (I heard numerous people say that Obama's voice was also sexy.)

Someone's speaking voice is really, really important. Like REALLY important, to attaining popularity and attention and getting people to listen to your message. And he has the right voice.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:20 PM
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Trump will be advised to not attack Buttigieg for his homosexuality. But Trump is just a 10 year old school yard bully. I doubt he will be able to help himself.
I agree. It would be nice to see Donald's Charge, the modern equivalent of Pickett's charge: An attack that was tried because it would have been effective in the past but now utterly fails because war/politics has changed.

I do think he's a like Obama in being folksy/charismatic and not just in being a minority it would be nice to have as president. Having Bill, Barack and Buttigieg together would be nice.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:23 PM
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I don't think Buttigieg is "folksy." (I hate that term - I know you're trying to use it positively, but George W. Bush ruined it forever with the constant use of that word to describe him.) There's nothing about the way he talks that says "small-town guy" or "middle-America guy". That may be how he's perceived, because of where he's from and possibly because of his youthful appearance, but when I hear Pete speak I hear "big time" and "A-list", not "folksy."
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:39 PM
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I don't think Buttigieg is "folksy." (I hate that term - I know you're trying to use it positively, but George W. Bush ruined it forever with the constant use of that word to describe him.) There's nothing about the way he talks that says "small-town guy" or "middle-America guy". That may be how he's perceived, because of where he's from and possibly because of his youthful appearance, but when I hear Pete speak I hear "big time" and "A-list", not "folksy."
Perhaps a wrong word to use. But seems like a guy you could sit down and have a beer with. Much like Obama. It was a relatively small crowd. And he seemed to connect pretty well.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:41 PM
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I don't think Buttigieg is "folksy." (I hate that term - I know you're trying to use it positively, but George W. Bush ruined it forever with the constant use of that word to describe him.) There's nothing about the way he talks that says "small-town guy" or "middle-America guy". That may be how he's perceived, because of where he's from and possibly because of his youthful appearance, but when I hear Pete speak I hear "big time" and "A-list", not "folksy."
Perhaps "approachable" or "unpretentious" (as much as you can be unpretentious running for President of the United States) would fit better?


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I honestly also think he has sex appeal - mainly because of his voice. And the fact that he's gay is not going to make any difference to the thousands of women who will find the tone of his voice sexy. I'm not saying women (or gay men) would just mindlessly vote for someone based on that, but it's just another asset. (I heard numerous people say that Obama's voice was also sexy.)
I remember losing a debate in another thread where I kept harping on about Democrat candidates needing to be the kind of person who'd do well in a singles bar, or a jazz joint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRatTuWdT_Q

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  #242  
Old 04-16-2019, 08:46 PM
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Perhaps "approachable" or "unpretentious" (as much as you can be unpretentious running for President of the United States) would fit better?
Much better than 'folksy'.
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Last edited by enipla; 04-16-2019 at 08:49 PM. Reason: messed up quote code
  #243  
Old 04-16-2019, 09:57 PM
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The funny thing is--and I'm not even sure I can explain it to myself--that although I've made no secret of my opposition to Buttigieg, and even though I'm an atheist, I still really loved what he said about Pence for some reason:
I'd love to love it. I have a much different reaction though. If Pence as VP hasn't done much of anything to affect gay people negatively, even in a complicit way, this might be a miscalculation, though I am understanding of why it would come up. Pence is brilliant politically at not overplaying his hand when people come at him. Buttigieg is kind of personalizing the issue and I know growing up as I did in a conservative Christian faith that personal feelings are neither here nor there as far as the true believer is concerned. It's nothing for the converted to fret about, as the distinction between God making a perfect creation and permitting his creation to fall into sin is understood.

Buttigieg has apparently been comparing Pence to a Pharisee, which I feel is more pertinent on a constant basis, and a lot of us feel a long-stewing anger inside of us where we'd like the idea of the piss being taken out of him for his brazen hypocrisy.

Religious texts are open to interpretation. It just feels shaky for a religious politician to make deductions rather than speak of religion in a way that is a little more open ended. There's something I'm really burned out on with quotes I see on social media relating religion to current events in a condensed, tidily packaged format that serves one side. See examples below (conservatives do this as well, of course). I guess I'm exhausted from them regardless of how much truth I might see. Oh well. I'm otherwise pleased with Pete. Neener neener.

"What Jesus never said: 'Feed the hungry only if they have papers.' 'Clothe the naked only if they're from your country.' 'Welcome the stranger only if there's zero risk.' 'Help the poor only if it's convenient.' 'Love your neighbor only if they look like you.'" - James Martin, S.J.

"If your church romanticises the Hondurans they reach out to on short term mission trips, but demonizes the Hondurans seeking asylum in a refugee caravan, it might be time to re-examine what mission is really all about." - Craig Greenfield

"In the Bible, religious people ended up abandoning God and mindlessly worshiping a golden calf. It isn't surprising, that so many of them are now bowing down to an orange jackass." - John Pavlovitz

"Everything you need to know about American Evangelicals: They pass one object of idolatry (Bibles) to be blessed by another object of idolatry (Trump) even though first object of idolatry (Bible) bans idolatry and every single thing the second object of idolatry (Trump) does." - Betty Bowers
  #244  
Old 04-17-2019, 08:44 AM
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I'd love to love it. I have a much different reaction though. If Pence as VP hasn't done much of anything to affect gay people negatively, even in a complicit way, this might be a miscalculation, though I am understanding of why it would come up. Pence is brilliant politically at not overplaying his hand when people come at him. Buttigieg is kind of personalizing the issue and I know growing up as I did in a conservative Christian faith that personal feelings are neither here nor there as far as the true believer is concerned. It's nothing for the converted to fret about, as the distinction between God making a perfect creation and permitting his creation to fall into sin is understood.

Buttigieg has apparently been comparing Pence to a Pharisee, which I feel is more pertinent on a constant basis, and a lot of us feel a long-stewing anger inside of us where we'd like the idea of the piss being taken out of him for his brazen hypocrisy.
A couple of points - It's worth remembering that Pence was Governor of Indiana (2013 - 2017) during a portion of Buttigieg's tenure as Mayor of South Bend (2012 -). So, they have a political history together locally. Pete has likely worked these very rhetorical disputes with Pence previously.

At the national campaign level, the VPs role is always as a loyal attack dog against the opposition. For Pence he is playing to the evangelical base, and considers it a win even if Pete had a decent come-back. And at this point the attacks are trial balloons to see what sticks and what energizes the base. As time goes on, the attacks will become more refined. If something looks like it is working, it will become amplified and repeated for potency. If they can turn it into a bumper-sticker style chant then that's a big win. Expect Pence to continue to hone this attack up until the point when Pete inevitably drops out of the race.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:55 AM
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Urgh, this is the problem.

I don't understand why people are cheering this guy, all I get is that all the other establishment candidates aren't really making a dent against Sanders, so CNN and the likes keep trying to showboat establishment candidates with a veneer of progressive values 'Oh look here's Beto, Latinos' love him' or 'Here's Buttigieg, he's Gay and a Rhodes scholar' or 'Kamala Harris, she's the female candidate who's gonna get Trump' Get ready for Biden next with 'Biden comes to the rescue'

So out of Biden, Beto, Buttgieg, Harris, Booker, how many of them supported and then walked back their previous commitment to free healthcare at the point of use?

This guy is nothing special, and you should be focusing more on wanting to overhaul the system of inequality than just trying to replace Trump with someone more respectable, in fact, you can do both.

Buttigieg is the Democrats' flavour of the month. Just don't ask what he stands for
What we learned in 2016 is that the voters don't care about policy. Donald could walk into a room full of MAGA hat wearers, say "I'm going to cut your Social Security! I'm going to cut your Medicare! I'm going to pollute your water! I'm going to raise your taxes and use the money to give more to the rich!" and the room would explode in applause.

The trouble with stating your policies is that you just give the other side ammunition. Why bother doing so when there is no reward?
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:10 PM
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At least he attracts entertaining protesters.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:46 PM
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What we learned in 2016 is that the voters don't care about policy. Donald could walk into a room full of MAGA hat wearers, say "I'm going to cut your Social Security! I'm going to cut your Medicare! I'm going to pollute your water! I'm going to raise your taxes and use the money to give more to the rich!" and the room would explode in applause.

The trouble with stating your policies is that you just give the other side ammunition. Why bother doing so when there is no reward?
Wrong, they do care about policy, you forget the reasons as to why Trump was voted in, because a large section of the American population felt like they were not listened too, and that their concerns were not being addressed and that they were being left behind. There's a reason why Michael Moore compared Trump to a Molotov cocktail to the establishment, it's also a reason why Bernie is so popular with Trump voters.

The vibe I get is that he's somehow a sensation because of him being the first Gay
candidate, which is great, but what's more important are his policies such as medicare, which he has already walked back on.
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  #248  
Old 04-17-2019, 05:51 PM
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The vibe I get is that he's somehow a sensation because of him being the first Gay
candidate, which is great, but what's more important are his policies such as medicare, which he has already walked back on.
I could not disagree more. His sexual orientation is barely talked about when I hear people talk about Pete. I mean it's seriously barely EVER mentioned at all.

He's a "sensation" - that part is true - because:

He's erudite, articulate, sounds intelligent without sounding like a know-it-all;

He has a phenomenal speaking voice, juxtaposed with a youthful boyish appearance;

He is a veteran - that actually means something to a lot of people, at a time when it feels like the folks who have "been there and done that" are less represented in politics than ever. I mean, shit, look at the gigantic field of candidates (mostly Republicans) in 2016, where were the veterans? NOWHERE, is where. Jim Webb didn't last one debate, and even among the God-n'-Guns GOP challengers, only nonentity Lindsey Graham had any time in uniform.

The fact that he is gay is really far down on the list of reasons why Pete has garnered so much attention and support.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:06 PM
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I could not disagree more. His sexual orientation is barely talked about when I hear people talk about Pete. I mean it's seriously barely EVER mentioned at all.

He's a "sensation" - that part is true - because:

He's erudite, articulate, sounds intelligent without sounding like a know-it-all;

He has a phenomenal speaking voice, juxtaposed with a youthful boyish appearance;

He is a veteran - that actually means something to a lot of people, at a time when it feels like the folks who have "been there and done that" are less represented in politics than ever. I mean, shit, look at the gigantic field of candidates (mostly Republicans) in 2016, where were the veterans? NOWHERE, is where. Jim Webb didn't last one debate, and even among the God-n'-Guns GOP challengers, only nonentity Lindsey Graham had any time in uniform.

The fact that he is gay is really far down on the list of reasons why Pete has garnered so much attention and support.
You don't get it do you? This isn't 2008 anymore, people don't care too much about that, they care about how long they're going to put up with a shitty quality of life and if they don't get it, which candidate would be best to blow up the system.

This 'Sensation' Walked back his commitment to medicare for all, and watered it down to a transistional phase. Wouldn't get that with Bernie.

He has also been in a number of undisclosed dinners with Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Terry McAuliffe organised by long term donor Bernard Schwartz which leads me to believe that the mainstream Democratic leadership is more concerned about a potential leaders pliability and ability to be controlled. Not so easy with Bernie Sanders.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:48 PM
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It hasn't completely soured me, but I'm very very unimpressed by this turd of a "national service" idea. He danced around whether it would be mandatory or enforced merely through economic discrimination against the losers who choose not to dig and refill potholes for Uncle Sam, but either idea sounds pretty terrible, both for the unwilling national servants and the people who would do those jobs for market wages and benefits but now have to compete with a bunch of temps.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 04-17-2019 at 08:53 PM.
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