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  #1  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:45 AM
gvozd gvozd is offline
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All our mistakes and our life are %100 our responsibility and our choices?

Or other people interfere too much nowadays and it is no longer our choice and our life. Confused

Last edited by gvozd; 07-01-2012 at 11:46 AM.. Reason: dunno
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  #2  
Old 07-01-2012, 08:33 PM
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
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Everything that happens to me may not be directly caused by me, but in the end the buck stops here. Nobody is more responsible for my life than me, except maybe my mom until I was 6. I make choices and and I have to live with them. It's a waste of a life to spend it blaming things on other people.

There are lot of exceptions like people who are victims of war crimes or other horrible situations in which they are truly innocent.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:42 PM
grude grude is offline
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Encouraging people to take control of their own life is not the same thing as saying it is cool for outsiders to judge their choices. Or one thing doesn't follow from the other.
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  #4  
Old 07-01-2012, 09:00 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
Or other people interfere too much nowadays and it is no longer our choice and our life. Confused
Can I ask how old you are? 'Cause this sounds like the kind of conundrum I had when I was 15, when my mom would be a total biotch and make me stay in and do homework instead of go to a party. She'd be all like, "you have to make better choices", and I'd be all, "how can I make a choice when you're making it for me?!" (This was often followed by such gems of teenage constancy like: "Get out of my life! Can I borrow $10?")

For most people, the ideal is that they are 100% responsible...until they aren't. If they can't/don't take responsibility, and their lack of responsibility affects other people, then someone generally steps in to help/guide/coerce them into taking responsibility.

Last edited by WhyNot; 07-01-2012 at 09:00 PM..
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  #5  
Old 07-01-2012, 09:00 PM
PSXer PSXer is online now
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All my problems are society's fault
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  #6  
Old 07-01-2012, 09:07 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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You can make the right decision and have it still look like a major error because no one sees what might have happened had you made the other choice(s).
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2012, 09:10 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
All our mistakes and our life are %100 our responsibility and our choices?
No. There's also chance, acting on bad information, and being coerced by those more powerful than you are. We are neither omniscient or omnipotent, and therefore incapable of being fully responsible for everything in our lives.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:11 PM
grude grude is offline
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Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
You can make the right decision and have it still look like a major error because no one sees what might have happened had you made the other choice(s).
Or because they don't see the unique conditions you started from, or because they can't see the future outcomes of the supposedly wiser choice.

You can praise the guy who owns a house at 19, and not see him commiting suicide a decade later due to his stressful life.
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Bosstone Bosstone is offline
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All or nothing! Black or white! Left or right! 0 or 1! No in-between!
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  #10  
Old 07-01-2012, 10:06 PM
emacknight emacknight is offline
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Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
All our mistakes and our life are %100 our responsibility and our choices?
Nope, none of it. You have no control. If you were born rich you'll be rich. If you were born poor you'll be poor. Turns out the US has a caste system and you are powerless to resist it. It's all fate, luck, karma, and predetermined.

And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the tea leaves don't look good for you.
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  #11  
Old 07-02-2012, 01:17 AM
Sudden Kestrel Sudden Kestrel is offline
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Hell, I don't even understand the question. I obviously need more to drink.
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:43 PM
gvozd gvozd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emacknight View Post
Nope, none of it. You have no control. If you were born rich you'll be rich. If you were born poor you'll be poor. Turns out the US has a caste system and you are powerless to resist it. It's all fate, luck, karma, and predetermined.

And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the tea leaves don't look good for you.
I doubt that. Plus, I not sure about whether you mock me. If you mock, why? If you are not, could you be more specific?

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Originally Posted by emacknight View Post

And I hate to be the one to tell you this.
Why do you hate to be the one tell me this?

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Originally Posted by emacknight View Post
but the tea leaves don't look good for you.
What does it mean?

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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
All or nothing! Black or white! Left or right! 0 or 1! No in-between!
If you try to criticize me the way I ask the question, know that I was not able to be specific due to language barrier. And, I'd appreciate your real answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSXer View Post
All my problems are society's fault
You are probably trying to demoralize me, aren't you?

Last edited by gvozd; 07-02-2012 at 05:47 PM..
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  #13  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:50 PM
gvozd gvozd is offline
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Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
Can I ask how old you are?
Do you think you cannot ask me hold I am?

Sorry for double post, I could not edit. I was too late.
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  #14  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:56 PM
Bosstone Bosstone is offline
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Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
If you try to criticize me the way I ask the question, know that I was not able to be specific due to language barrier. And, I'd appreciate your real answer.
That was my real answer. It's not one or the other, but a mix of the two. There are things we can control and things we can't control that influence our lives.
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  #15  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:06 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
Do you think you cannot ask me hold I am?

Sorry for double post, I could not edit. I was too late.
Oh! I'm sorry, I did not know that English is not your first language. What languages do you speak?

"Can I ask how old you are?" is another way of saying, "Please tell me how old you are, if you are willing to tell me."

My whole post was probably too informal and hard for you to understand. Let me try again to answer your questions without all the slang:

I wonder how old you are. The questions in your post remind me of the way I thought when I was about 15. I got very frustrated when my mother would make a choice for me, but she'd also yell at me to make my own choices. Now that I'm older, and have my own children, I understand better what she was doing.

The answer to both of your questions is "yes". Yes, you are responsible for your own choices and your own life. Yes, sometimes people have to interfere and make choices for you.

People don't always make good choices. People don't always take responsibility for themselves. When the choices that a person makes start to hurt other people, then someone has to help. Sometimes that means teaching the person why their choices are hurting people, and teaching them what other choices they could be making instead (for example, making someone to go to classes to learn how to be a good parent instead of hurting their children). Sometimes that means making the choices for them (for example, a court ordering someone to pay child support because they won't take the responsibility to pay it on their own.)

Is that more clear? I hope so. Please, keep posting. This message board is an excellent place for you to practice your English! Lots of message boards have posters who don't use very good English, and you can learn lots of mistakes. This message board mostly has posters who use very good English, when we're not being too silly to be understood.

Last edited by WhyNot; 07-02-2012 at 06:08 PM..
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:53 PM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
That was my real answer. It's not one or the other, but a mix of the two. There are things we can control and things we can't control that influence our lives.
Hence the famous "Serenity Prayer":
Quote:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
The OP may wish to read up on the idea of "locus of control."

Last edited by Thudlow Boink; 07-02-2012 at 06:53 PM..
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  #17  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:03 PM
Trinopus Trinopus is offline
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I've actually met people who believe that "Everything that happens to you in this life is consensual." You get only what you accept.

Yeah, bullshit. And the rape victim was asking for it.

The fact is, sometimes someone else is stronger, or is in a position of authority, or has more money, or is more persuasive. Juries don't always make the right decision either. Life isn't fair....but I'd still rather live in a state of civilization than a state of nature.
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  #18  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:06 PM
Taomist Taomist is offline
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What happens to you is out of your control.
How you respond is 100% in your control.

Also, many decisions made are uninformed ones, and that information is not always within your ability to know. Hence why we tend to make more mistakes when young, 'cause sometimes, people learn from them. Some people never make mistakes and so never learn certain things; some people make mistakes their whole lives and never learn from them.

Last edited by Taomist; 07-02-2012 at 08:06 PM..
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  #19  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:24 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Mistakes are far better teachers than we tend to want to acknowledge.

But of course, we Humans have a near infinite capacity for self-deception and a willingness to ignore reality in favor of our desired fantasy.
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:21 AM
Machine Elf Machine Elf is offline
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Originally Posted by Trinopus View Post
I've actually met people who believe that "Everything that happens to you in this life is consensual." You get only what you accept.

Yeah, bullshit. And the rape victim was asking for it.
Maybe she wasn't asking for it (whatever that means), but if she had a sense of self-preservation, she would not have chosen to drink herself to unconsciousness at the frat party. That's like crossing the street without looking both ways first, even when you have the green light: yes, you had the right-of-way, you weren't asking to be raped or run over, but you still need to protect your own interests from other people's inattention, greed, or malice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinopus
The fact is, sometimes someone else is stronger, or is in a position of authority, or has more money, or is more persuasive.
True, sometimes you're going to get screwed despite your best efforts. But your goal, if you are acting in your own best interest, is to minimize the opportunties for the universe (and the people in it) to screw you. Lock your door, wear your seatbelt/helmet, don't drink to oblivion at frat parties, get flood insurance, etc.
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  #21  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:30 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is online now
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We have choices - and I think it's probably true we generally don't make the right choices often enough (even when the outcome is predictable).

But also, shit happens that we have no choice about (unless you want to argue that there is a still the choice to accept it, but often, accepting shit is functionally the same as rejecting it - it's still shit)
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:46 AM
Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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You're either a "victim" or you're not.
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:48 AM
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With the exception of true exploitation, no one interferes in your life without your consent. You always have the option to ignore them and follow your own path.

It's about owning your choices. You don't have to like all your choices, in fact you can regret them, recognize them as errors, etc. But you still have to own them.

When you rationalize your choices away, as being 'forced' by another's actions or responses, you are doing yourself a very, very harmful disservice. You are deluding yourself, and ignoring what you know, deep down to be the truth. You didn't have to swing at that guy, you didn't have to say that hurtful thing, you didn't have to look the other way, or keep quiet. All choices.

Once you begin to delude yourself, you will continue, no stops at just one. Pretty soon you've bent yourself into not being able to see reality, as it is anymore and there is very little hope for your future. I think we all know someone like this. It's pointless to even talk to them about anything, they literally cannot hear.

It's a hard reality, but in the end, you are not your intentions, you are your actions. Right or wrong, if you're willing to take ownership of them, especially the missteps, you'll probably turn into a gem of a person, in my experience.
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  #24  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:57 AM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
Do you think you cannot ask me hold I am?.
Siri?
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  #25  
Old 07-03-2012, 08:58 AM
Dogzilla Dogzilla is offline
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The only things you can control are your attitude and your reactions.

Our mistakes are generally the result of poor choices -- but sometimes we make the best choices we can based on limited or incorrect information. The beautiful thing about taking responsibility for our choices and owning up to our mistakes in life is that, quite often, we get a second chance. There are very few choices in your life that are irrevocable and that will ruin your entire life forever. Some choices really fuck things up and it's very difficult to "fix" your mistakes, but for the most part, when you own up to your shit, you are able to have some influence over the outcome, if not outright control. Control is mostly an illusion though, so be careful with that.
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  #26  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:48 AM
emacknight emacknight is offline
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Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
I doubt that. Plus, I not sure about whether you mock me. If you mock, why? If you are not, could you be more specific?
Not mocking you, but I am mocking the dozen or so people on this message board that believe what I wrote.

The problem with this question is that is has very significant political consequences. Once we establish that fate is in control our actions have no consequences. So a person that is poor had bad luck, it's not their fault. Likewise, a person that is rich is undeserving. Since it all comes down to luck it's not fair that some people are rich and some people are poor.

The only fair and just thing to do is have the government play karmic overlord. Take money from the rich and give it to the poor. Now everyone is the same as it should be.

If, on the other hand, there is even a shred of personal responsibility that policy quickly turns into a reward for poor choices and a punishment for good. Someone that was born into a good family that decides to work hard and get a medical degree find herself subsidizing the life of a person also born into a good family that opted for an over priced liberal arts degree.

I was part of a scholarship selection committee years ago and had the opportunity to watch the students progress. Each of them could be considered "lucky" enough to get a full ride. Some of them took that opportunity and made the most of it. Others drank them sells onto academic probation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
You are probably trying to demoralize me, aren't you?
It's the first step for many here. As I said, if we assume that our life is the result of the choices we make it's a lot harder to justify wealth redistribution.
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:57 AM
elbows elbows is online now
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Not when we see it as our responsibility to those less fortunate. Which is, wait for it...a choice.
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  #28  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:05 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emacknight View Post

It's the first step for many here. As I said, if we assume that our life is the result of the choices we make it's a lot harder to justify wealth redistribution.
I have a friend who was a bright, energetic, and hard working engineer. At 35 he came down with bone cancer. After 10 years of treatment he's still alive, but he's mentally and physically exhausted after two or three hours of work. His immune system is destroyed after multiple rounds of chemo and radiation, and he gets opportunistic infections constantly. He is incapable of holding down a full time job, and is pretty much permanently disabled.

This is clearly his fault, and he should have been tossed out in the gutter to die by any fair-minded society.
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2012, 02:45 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
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We all have choices. We don't all have all of the choices we'd like to have. Some of our choices are between equally or nearly equally terrible options, like do we decline the chemo and probably die in 3 months, or take the chemo and probably die in 6 months, but be sick from the chemo the whole time?

Even if someone has a gun to your head, you have a choice. You can choose to die rather than submit to what he wants you to do. It's not an easy choice. It's not a choice we want to make, but it's still a choice.


(That being said, I still have no freaking clue what this thread is actually about.)

Last edited by WhyNot; 07-03-2012 at 02:46 PM..
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  #30  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:04 PM
The Great Sun Jester The Great Sun Jester is offline
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Not sure just what the OP is on about, but it presents a false dichotomy.

I'm responsible for making my kids, for marrying their mother, for joining the Army, for my shitty grades my first two years in college and my fabulous ones the last two years. I'm not responsible for being born in the USA to a couple of people who wanted to live in a house rather than a trailer. All of that has made me who I am, but it's not all been my choice.

Now that's out of the way: preachy time! Learn to tell the difference between what you can control (attitude & reaction) and what you can't (someone else's attitude & reaction), and own your failures and triumphs equally. You are the composite of what you have done, right and wrong, and to deny any of it is to intentionally misinterpret yourself and your abilities. Once you start lying to yourself you begin to lose yourself, and that way lies madness. And spontaneous orgies.
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  #31  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:40 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emacknight View Post
Not mocking you, but I am mocking the dozen or so people on this message board that believe what I wrote.

The problem with this question is that is has very significant political consequences. Once we establish that fate is in control our actions have no consequences. So a person that is poor had bad luck, it's not their fault. Likewise, a person that is rich is undeserving. Since it all comes down to luck it's not fair that some people are rich and some people are poor.
While some well to do people become poor, and some poor people become rich, that is not the way to bet. Do you think the person who inherited money and can live on it is better than a poor person? Do you think a child who is born to a drunk mother and suffers from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome deserves it?
Bill Gates made a ton of money, and deserves it, but don't you think he was helped a lot by having a wealthy father and thus a safety net?

Quote:
It's the first step for many here. As I said, if we assume that our life is the result of the choices we make it's a lot harder to justify wealth redistribution.
Unless you have some way of proving that every person who needs help is that way because of poor choices, it is not hard at all.
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  #32  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:42 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
The only things you can control are your attitude and your reactions.

Our mistakes are generally the result of poor choices -- but sometimes we make the best choices we can based on limited or incorrect information. The beautiful thing about taking responsibility for our choices and owning up to our mistakes in life is that, quite often, we get a second chance. There are very few choices in your life that are irrevocable and that will ruin your entire life forever. Some choices really fuck things up and it's very difficult to "fix" your mistakes, but for the most part, when you own up to your shit, you are able to have some influence over the outcome, if not outright control. Control is mostly an illusion though, so be careful with that.
The one thing you can do to help with this is to think about plan B. If you never make a mistake you are not trying hard enough. However you can plan to minimize the effect of things going south.
That's why it is important to let kids make mistakes. If they never learn that things can go wrong, they never learn to plan for them to go wrong.
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  #33  
Old 07-05-2012, 09:57 AM
Staggerlee Staggerlee is offline
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A great deal of what we consider conscious choice is a rationalisation of our compulsive actions fabricated after the event.

We are all predetermined to live under the illusion of free-will.
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