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  #101  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
I think that there is another nice guy besides the "I do nice things and therefore deserve sex" nice guy. There is also the guy who thinks that being polite and respectful means not making sexual advances or being flirtatious.

Absolutely, a man should respect a woman's right to say no. But it took me a while to understand that many women on a date do want the man to try something.
I more or less agree with this. I don't get how women can think that guys who hit on women feel entitled to sex any less than "nice guys" do. But the "nice guys" seem to feel that the woman should realize their interest and do something about it. The nastiness comes when she goes out with someone who really has done something to show he is interested.
From the self-narration of "nice guys" around here, and from some observation, the fear of offense begins long before sexual advances, more like going out as something more than buddies. Women don't seem to really comprehend the fear involved for some men. They seem to think that politely asking for a date will cause her to banish him forever. My wife certainly thinks that it is easier for men than women.
I think it was a bit easier when I was in high school, since there wasn't a lot of just hanging out, so if you wanted to see a girl after class you pretty much had to ask her out. if the concept of friend zone existed back then, I never heard of it.
  #102  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Martian Bigfoot View Post
You guys are calling it misogyny, but I don't actually think it's that at all: It's general misanthropy.
I think this is a really important point. The archetypal "nice guy" insults other men constantly by claiming that you can't be both "nice" and successful with women. And of course he insults women all the time.
  #103  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:42 PM
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I'd say that the only thing that guarantees romantic success is confidence. Being a nice person certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not enough by itself. Looking good and being in shape helps, but it's not enough either. Women always told me I had the second two qualities, but no one ever told me they liked how confident I was. If they had, they would have been lying. Once I was an adult I didn't blame anyone but myself. Quite possibly if I hadn't been in the right place at the right time I'd be the most pathetic person on this board.
  #104  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:51 PM
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I don't know about the nice guy thing but I do know I would rather establish that feelings are mutual whatever they happened to be before I advance to next levels. When I was younger and doing the ba thing it was pretty much a given that if you left the bar together you were going to get laid. When I got older and started doing the internet dating thing it became a lot more complicated. Some ladies really wanted relationships and would get their feeling hurt if they gave it up thinking you were falling for them. I was perfectly fine with a few dates before any sex.
  #105  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:56 PM
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I think this is a really important point. The archetypal "nice guy" insults other men constantly by claiming that you can't be both "nice" and successful with women. And of course he insults women all the time.
Exactly. It puts everyone on the defense.

If you're a guy who has a SO and/or you've never had a problem getting a date, then you must be some kind of "bad boy" or stereotypical macho man. Your name might as well be Chad.

If you're a woman who admits she is attracted to guys with some swagger, social competency, and certain physical attributes, then you must be superficial and probably think your shit don't stink.
  #106  
Old 05-25-2016, 08:13 PM
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I thought this was interesting on the subject of nice guys.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31...e-romanceless/
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I will have to use virginity statistics as a proxy for the harder-to-measure romancelessness statistics, but these are bad enough. In high school each extra IQ point above average increases chances of male virginity by about 3%. 35% of MIT grad students have never had sex, compared to only 20% of average nineteen year old men. Compared with virgins, men with more sexual experience are likely to drink more alcohol, attend church less, and have a criminal history. A Dr. Beaver (nominative determinism again!) was able to predict number of sexual partners pretty well using a scale with such delightful items as “have you been in a gang”, “have you used a weapon in a fight”, et cetera. An analysis of the psychometric Big Five consistently find that high levels of disagreeableness predict high sexual success in both men and women.

If you’re smart, don’t drink much, stay out of fights, display a friendly personality, and have no criminal history – then you are the population most at risk of being miserable and alone. “At risk” doesn’t mean “for sure”, any more than every single smoker gets lung cancer and every single nonsmoker lives to a ripe old age – but your odds get worse. In other words, everything that “nice guys” complain of is pretty darned accurate. But that shouldn’t be too hard to guess…
I'm not curious enough to actually wade through that blog entry to follow the source. But I am curious enough to wonder if this Dr. Beaver asked his subjects how frequently they 1) socialize and 2) approach women. I'm gonna take a wild-ass guess and wager that Choir Boys are less likely to put themselves out there than Bad Boys.

I'm also gonna guess that Bad Boys tend to have more non-sexual relationships for the same reason. If you're spending every weekend (barring Sunday's church service) studying for your exams, chances are your friend circle is much smaller than the guy's who spends his weekend hanging out at the beach with his bros. Does that mean that men don't like "nice guys"? Or is just that everyone likes people who are more extroverted?
  #107  
Old 05-25-2016, 08:41 PM
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I think this is a really important point. The archetypal "nice guy" insults other men constantly by claiming that you can't be both "nice" and successful with women. And of course he insults women all the time.
Does he insult women during the friends without benefits stage, or only after the woman has the nerve to not read his mind and jump on him?
  #108  
Old 05-25-2016, 09:08 PM
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From the self-narration of "nice guys" around here, and from some observation, the fear of offense begins long before sexual advances, more like going out as something more than buddies. Women don't seem to really comprehend the fear involved for some men. They seem to think that politely asking for a date will cause her to banish him forever.
I've noticed this with some men too. I honestly don't really understand where it comes from, but it is pretty extreme and unfortunately common. I've had a lot of conversations with fellow men that goes like this:

Nice Guy: I met a girl at the gym and I'm interested in her. What do you think I should do?

Fuzzy Dunlop: Why don't invite her to have dinner with you?

Nice Guy: Wooooooah! Are you serious? Don't you think that's coming on too strong??

Fuzzy Dunlop: On the contrary, I think it's literally just about the least you could do and still clearly convey your romantic interest. When I said dinner did you hear finger her in the locker room?
  #109  
Old 05-26-2016, 12:06 AM
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Also, have you read the site in question? Because they make it really clear that the people they're talking about are not actually nice at all, and I don't understand why anyone would want to self-identify as the whiny, sexist, manipulative, unkind person they describe.
Uh yeah, this. I wanted some brain-bleach after learning about "nice guys." I'm not at all surprised they have no success with women. They are the OPPOSITE of nice. I've met men like this (never realized they had a name before) but they are what we used to call jerks. It has nothing to do with sex, they are jerks in all aspects of their lives. They don't know how to relate to people. I don't know what name is being used to describe "nice guys" who happen to be women these days, but I'm sure there is something. Probably a name far more accurate than "nice."
  #110  
Old 05-26-2016, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop View Post
I've noticed this with some men too. I honestly don't really understand where it comes from, but it is pretty extreme and unfortunately common. I've had a lot of conversations with fellow men that goes like this:

Nice Guy: I met a girl at the gym and I'm interested in her. What do you think I should do?

Fuzzy Dunlop: Why don't invite her to have dinner with you?

Nice Guy: Wooooooah! Are you serious? Don't you think that's coming on too strong??

Fuzzy Dunlop: On the contrary, I think it's literally just about the least you could do and still clearly convey your romantic interest. When I said dinner did you hear finger her in the locker room?

You have just hit on something I've been theorizing for a while:

Nice guys have been conditioned into believing that women, on a fundamental level, don't like and don't want attention from men.

(Which isn't an unreasonable belief for them to arrive at, considering that many women do indeed complain about getting unwanted attention from men. Women usually want to be pursued by men that they like, and don't want to be pursued by men that they don't like - and even then, women usually only want to be pursued at certain times and circumstances - but a nice guy can easily conclude that women don't want to be pursued by men, at all, ever, period.)


So what does this mean? This means that a nice guy will, on a fundamental level, believe that approaching a woman requires subterfuge and subtlety - why? Because he is trying to get her to do something she doesn't want - namely, get into a relationship with him. Thus he fears "blowing his cover" - namely, making his intentions known.

This is the same attitude that some salesmen have - they believe that their potential customers would say "No" if they ask directly, so they have to do all sorts of leading-in with indirect questions and chitchat before they can slowly lure their customer into buying the product.

I would not be surprised one bit if it turns out that successful salesmen are the salesmen who believe that the customers want the product that they have to sell, and the unsuccessful salesmen are the ones who assume that the potential customers don't want it and that they have to find a way to get the balking, unwilling, customer to buy in.
  #111  
Old 05-26-2016, 09:58 AM
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Nice guys have been conditioned into believing that women, on a fundamental level, don't like and don't want attention from men.
Maybe, but I don't really think so. I mean, "nice guys" aren't stupid. They know that other men are having success by being assertive. They also know that other people are pairing off left, right and center, seemingly without any effort involved by either party.

But "nice guys" have a fundamentally low opinion of themselves. They believe, on a fundamental level, that women don't like and don't want attention from them in particular. Hence the perceived need to "trick" women into liking them.

Again, there isn't any confusion on this matter: "Nice guys" don't think they're doing what everyone else are doing, or what is expected or wanted of them. They certainly don't actually believe sneakiness and subterfuge is what women want. I mean, that doesn't even make any sense. They know that they're playing a game, and they know damned well that there's dishonesty involved on their own part.

What they do think is wanted of them, as you say, is for them to simply leave women the hell alone. But that's about them, specifically. I don't think they believe it applies to the world.
  #112  
Old 05-26-2016, 10:07 AM
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You have just hit on something I've been theorizing for a while:

Nice guys have been conditioned into believing that women, on a fundamental level, don't like and don't want attention from men.

(Which isn't an unreasonable belief for them to arrive at, considering that many women do indeed complain about getting unwanted attention from men. Women usually want to be pursued by men that they like, and don't want to be pursued by men that they don't like - and even then, women usually only want to be pursued at certain times and circumstances - but a nice guy can easily conclude that women don't want to be pursued by men, at all, ever, period.)


So what does this mean? This means that a nice guy will, on a fundamental level, believe that approaching a woman requires subterfuge and subtlety - why? Because he is trying to get her to do something she doesn't want - namely, get into a relationship with him. Thus he fears "blowing his cover" - namely, making his intentions known.

This is the same attitude that some salesmen have - they believe that their potential customers would say "No" if they ask directly, so they have to do all sorts of leading-in with indirect questions and chitchat before they can slowly lure their customer into buying the product.

I would not be surprised one bit if it turns out that successful salesmen are the salesmen who believe that the customers want the product that they have to sell, and the unsuccessful salesmen are the ones who assume that the potential customers don't want it and that they have to find a way to get the balking, unwilling, customer to buy in.
Thanks. I do agree with you that this cognitive mistake is a big part of Nice Guy's problems. It's not the part that makes other people dislike them so intensely or that causes us to call them misogynists, but I do believe it's a root cause of their romantic failure.

You might be right about the subterfuge and subtlety, but from my perspective it's always struck me as a man who has stagnated in a very primitive stage of emotional/romantic development. I say that because it reminds me very much of my approach to girls when I was first developing an interest in them - late elementary school or early middle school. It seemed like everyone was very coy about their romantic interests in those days. Most of us just grew out of it at a very young age.

A common trait I've noticed in Nice Guys is that they're extraordinarily lacking in self-awareness. To the extent that if you point out that other people may be seeing them very different than they see themselves, they'll angrily insist you are dead wrong. I think that plays a role in them seeing that women don't like men who won't take no for an answer, or who pursue them by making crude or sexual comments, and concluding that they can't even ask for a simple date. In truth, most Nice Guys couldn't possibly be that persistent in the face of rejection or sexually suggestive even if they tried to. But Instead they do nothing for weeks or months until the passive aggressive feelings boil over and they reveal themselves to secretly be jerks, angry that the target of their affection wasn't able to infer their interest.
  #113  
Old 05-26-2016, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
I think that there is another nice guy besides the "I do nice things and therefore deserve sex" nice guy. There is also the guy who thinks that being polite and respectful means not making sexual advances or being flirtatious.

Absolutely, a man should respect a woman's right to say no. But it took me a while to understand that many women on a date do want the man to try something.
One of the guys I... dated, if that's the right word (I mean, can you call it dating when one of the parties isn't sure if it's dates or bananas?), would
* insist on imposing these old-fashioned notions of etiquette on everything, for example freaking out if I ever happened to move so I was closer to the edge of the sidewalk than he was (dude, that there's tarmac, not mud!),
* jump away if I tried to touch him (uh, ok, so... he wants to be just friends?)
* seemed to want to be alone, yet if we were alone would keep his distance like a gay monk in the best little whorehouse in Texas, (juuuust friends, ok then I guess)
* and then managed to royally piss me off when, after a few weeks of that, he grabbed me, stuck his tongue in my ear and whispered "I am so dying to try that bed of yours" (an alabaster vase! where is an alabaster vase when you need one!)

He managed to combine too slow and too fast, and treating solidly-built me like I was some sort of china doll with that oh so delicate proposition. He wasn't a bad guy but sweet Jesus I sure do hope he'll have learned something since!

Last edited by Nava; 05-26-2016 at 10:11 AM.
  #114  
Old 05-27-2016, 11:12 AM
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I want to reply to more of what Martian Bigfoot wrote. He made me so mad I almost couldn't see straight, and I still don't care for the hostility and contempt I feel from his posts, but...

he's right about a couple things

and I owe a couple apologies so I'd like to make them at this point.

•as Martian Bigfoot explains, being indirect (he says "passive-aggressive") is not necessarily a more pleasant behavior to be on the receiving end of than the most direct and bluntly overt sexual aggression mode. and yes, I have made statements that imply otherwise, and so have Nice Guys™ in general. We do often make claims and otherwise behave as if our way of expressing sexuality is, well, "nicer", i.e., more admirable, better, however you want to express that. Yeah, OK -- he's right, that is bullshit.


and at least indirectly connected to that,

• we have also behaved and made statements to the effect that we think we are nicer people as a consequence of this "nicer" way of being sexual; we have blatantly presented ourselves as goody two-shoes characters who are just better people and we have been pretty damn hostile towards conventional mainstream sexually aggressive guys (Bad Boys™) and also towards the Nice Girls™ who prefer them to us. And, well, that's bullshit too.


Let's have this conversation, if you're willing to let me say "I'm sorry" and start over?

We're not better than anyone else and our way of being sexual isn't better than other people's either. Are we really not at all good people though, not as good, is our way of being sexual truly horrid and disgusting?

I don't think all of us are bad people. I try not to be.

This way of being sexual, that I've described, and which you've heard also described here in less compimentary terms? It's how I am. OK, maybe it's not morally superior and so forth, but it's what fits my character and personality. That's largely true of Nice Girls™, too. They get identified as such, defined as such, primarily by their approach to sexuality, as do their opposite number the Bad Girls™.


So, finally, there's the bit about us bringing up the subject. As Martian Bigfoot says, just by bringing it up (to complain that we get left out in the cold and that girls aren't picking us up and stuff) we're expressing interest in sexual matters. Here, I suspect, is where a lot of people would say "Oh, but you so-called Nice Guys™ are not just like the Nice Girls™, because THEY aren't bringing up the subject and practically demanding that someone come on to them in order to make the world fair". Right? Yeah, well, they don't have to, they do not generally need to bring it up in order for people to understand the kind of behaviors and scenarios they're likely to respond to.

But although we do have reason and need for expressing this stuff, explaining our existence, it is still true that, tactically speaking, it is counterproductive to us to make these public statements and to express these sentiments. Why? Well, because although there aren't too many female-bodied people going around taking the more bluntly sexually aggressive role towards guys and thus reversing the conventional flow of operations, there are some, but they like to feel like it was their idea, that they are making it happen. Walking around wearing shirts that say things like "Properly Chaste Until Chased Properly" makes a great political statement but it isn't going to get you pounced upon.

What we need to become skilled at is flirting — inoccuously enough that it doesn't really get noticed except by someone who was sort of looking for it, unintrusive and unobtrusive, formulated in such a way that no one is going to feel squirmy and creeped out, experiencing it as sexual pressure. Stuff that's easy to ignore for someone who doesn't find the signal alluring.

It's what works.

The Nice Guys you've heard about are mainly described from the outside, and the occasion of the described encounters are mostly us in Whine Mode, complaining about how being the way we are is very frustrating and things seem unfair to us.

We have said hateful things about normative traditional guys, and that's wrong. But please try to understand that their way of being in the world has been held out in front of us as the model we were suppsoed to emulate and aspire to, and that gets old, as does the attitude and expectation that we consider ourselves substandard when compared to guys like that. But yeah, understanding why we do it doesn't make it right. I don't want to be like you, you who are guys like that -- but I'm sorry I've been hostile about it. And yeah, it's been mutual, but after all I'm asking you guys to stop with the hostilities, so I need to do so as well.

Last edited by AHunter3; 05-27-2016 at 11:13 AM.
  #115  
Old 05-27-2016, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
You have just hit on something I've been theorizing for a while:

Nice guys have been conditioned into believing that women, on a fundamental level, don't like and don't want attention from men.

(Which isn't an unreasonable belief for them to arrive at, considering that many women do indeed complain about getting unwanted attention from men. Women usually want to be pursued by men that they like, and don't want to be pursued by men that they don't like - and even then, women usually only want to be pursued at certain times and circumstances - but a nice guy can easily conclude that women don't want to be pursued by men, at all, ever, period.)

This is me, me, oh so much me. Fuck, I need to get over this belief.

Now, I have been told by family members - so it may or may not be true - that I actually get interested looks from women all the time; I'm just too busy/foolish to look up and recognize it. In my case, there's no telling when I can ACTIVELY address this problem, however, because I am SO damn busy with university/work that takes up literally ALL of my time seven days a week. I also can't really pursue any women I go to school with because I live fifty miles away and most of them live either (a) down there or (b) up to fifty miles away in the OTHER direction.

FWIW, I once had a woman I was interested in call me a "nice person;" I knew right then that my chances with her were shot. YMMV of course.
  #116  
Old 05-27-2016, 11:56 AM
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We have said hateful things about normative traditional guys, and that's wrong. But please try to understand...
An actually nice person who realizes they're doing wrong tries to STOP DOING WRONG. Full Stop. No buts, no asking for understanding. And definitely no bargaining or blame shifting. This is a prime example of what people mean when they say that Nice Guys aren't actually nice people - you're trying to say that you're so nice it is part of the correct term for yourself, but you say hateful things about people. And they're not just 'I was angry so I said some BS off the cuff', you've made it clear that this simmering resentment is a constant, core feature of your personality.
  #117  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:09 PM
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What we need to become skilled at is flirting — inoccuously enough that it doesn't really get noticed except by someone who was sort of looking for it, unintrusive and unobtrusive, formulated in such a way that no one is going to feel squirmy and creeped out, experiencing it as sexual pressure. Stuff that's easy to ignore for someone who doesn't find the signal alluring.

It's what works.
NO!

Dear God, and I even though I had you on board for a while there.

Sorry. I'm really on your case, aren't I? I apologize. Really, I'm very, very sorry. But I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall. Please, stay with me for a moment.

Look, the first part of your post was wonderful. That was proper insight and understanding. It almost brought a tear to my eye. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it. It was literally moving.

But then this is your conclusion? What you're describing there is still standard "nice guy" behavior! It's the same thing, in practice, that you've been doing all along. It comes from the same place. It's all about hedging, being covert, maintaining plausible deniability. Maybe the intention is flipped around now, but the behavior, and the reaction we'll get, is exactly the same.

(Yes, I said "we". What, do you think I read about this shit in a book? This is about me, as much as it is about you.)

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inoccuously enough that it doesn't really get noticed except by someone who was sort of looking for it, unintrusive and unobtrusive
This slithery, slimy stuff, this hyper-subtle, coy, "unintrusive and unobtrusive" crap an is exactly why we creep people out. Can you seriously not see it?

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Stuff that's easy to ignore for someone who doesn't find the signal alluring.
You know what that is? That there is cowardly as shit. People who flirt successfully aren't actually all that coy about it. Certainly not compared to us. People are actually supposed to notice. There is risk-taking involved. It is putting yourself out there.

It's not about being able to slither right back into your shell when the girl notices what you're doing, and pretend that you were just minding your own business all along. Again, that is exactly what makes us come across as creepy.

Cowardly is not a good look. Scared doesn't turn anyone on. We need to grow some balls. Tiny, wrinkly, pathetic ones may be the best we can do. But we can't walk around like goddamned eunuchs when we're flirting. That's the highway right back to "nice guy" again.

*catches breath*

Anyway. I think we're half way there now.

What we actually need to learn is to be more honest. Or at least that's one thing.

Another thing I want to talk about (or maybe it's all part of the same thing): One problem I've had with being a "nice guy", and one that has been harmful to me, is about always being "on". Whenever I've been around someone I've liked, every interaction, every conversation, everything I say or do has tended to become part of the "nice guy program", Everything becomes instrumental: It's always about saying the right thing, doing the right things, in order to, as someone put it earlier, eventually make her legs spring open.

That's something I've been trying to get away from, and I've come to realize just how much mental energy it has drained from me in the past. Another thing is that it actually stops me from being able to really care about, or care for, the other person. Everything become about me.

I've tried to change that. Now, if I decide to flirt, I bloody well flirt. I take the risk. And if I decide not to, I don't. I stop second-guessing myself. I stop constantly worrying about projecting the right image while also simultaneously maintaining plausible deniability.

I try to either shit, or get off the pot. Not just sit and strain forever. And this is something that has been a massive relief for me in recent times, in my life. The best part of it? I can actually see other the person now. My dick isn't constantly blocking my view.
  #118  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:44 PM
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Are "Nice Guys" more passive in their play because they don't want to come across as jerks?

Or are they afraid of rejection?

Or is it both?

I can certainly understand both positions. Not all women want "male" attention, so guys do need to appreciate that direct propositioning may not be welcomed. And there is no rulebook that can help you figure out when you should be assertive and when you shouldn't.

And of course rejection hurts. Why wouldn't it?

But what advice would "Nice Guys" have folks give them that doesn't come across as accusatory or shaming? I guess that's the part I struggle with.

I once had a very negative experience with a Nice Guy. He befriended me, but never once let me know that he had feelings for me. And then when it became clear I wasn't going to make the first step, he became enraged--scaring the shit out of me--forever ruining our friendship. I've revisited this experience many times in my head, and for the life of me, I don't know what I did wrong other than being nice to him. Should I have given him a cold shoulder from the very beginning? I don't know.

Even when I was terrified of him, I was sad for him because it was clear his life was one of constant frustration. But I really don't know how that is my responsibility or the responsibility of anyone else. Knowing that he meant well and that he was fundamentally "good" doesn't make me any less wary of "Nice Guys". I don't think it's just a coincidence that I keep guys from befriending me now. I'm friendly towards them, but I don't want a re-play of what happened before. I don't know what that makes me. "Mean Woman", maybe?
  #119  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:50 PM
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Stuff that's easy to ignore for someone who doesn't find the signal alluring.
Christ, I'm not actually done yet...

It's not bloody easy to ignore! You know what is easy to ignore? A guy who is upfront, someone you can say a clear yes or no to, and who, if it's "no", drops the fucking subject and gets on with his life. The next day, you can forget about him. Heck, even if he works at your office, you can forget about that interaction, as long as he's not a dick in general.

What is not easy to ignore is the guy who is constantly breathing down your neck, but when you turn around, he has had the time to run off and hide behind the nearest tree. And then he may, or may not, be following you home, and hiding in the bushes. You're not entirely sure.

That shit is pretty much exactly the opposite of easy to ignore. Whatever you call that behavior, "easy to ignore" is just completely backwards.

You want to come across as not showing sexual interest? Don't show sexual interest. Or do it properly, and then leave it the fuck alone the rest of the time.
  #120  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:53 PM
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Are "Nice Guys" more passive in their play because they don't want to come across as jerks?

Or are they afraid of rejection?

Or is it both?
A little of both, plus a lot of a factor you don't seem to be getting: some of us just don't mesh with the aggressive-overt role, it isn't how we are. Not only do we not wish to come across as jerks, we're also snobbish and do not wish to beg for sex.


I just said I don't see this as a "genuinely nicer" way of being in the world, or being sexual, than any other. But I don't see it as bad or wrongful either.


And by the way, if it is wrong, it is wrong for anyone and everyone regardless of sex.

Last edited by AHunter3; 05-27-2016 at 12:55 PM.
  #121  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:08 PM
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Are "Nice Guys" more passive in their play because they don't want to come across as jerks?

Or are they afraid of rejection?
Oh, it's fear of rejection.

Well, it's also not wanting to come across as jerks, but only in the secondary sense that coming across as jerks might get them rejected.

Which, BTW, is understandable. One thing they don't tell you at player-school, is that rejection fucking sucks. Dear God, it's awful. "The worst thing that can happen is that you'll get rejected." Yeah? You make it sound easy. You failed to mention that it's completely soul-crushing. Frankly, I'd rather have my balls crushed in a revolving door any day of the week.

So, yeah, there is that. That's one problem I haven't sorted out yet. I have no idea how other people deal with it. At the moment, I just suck it up when it happens. But yeah, it's not good. I hope it gets better eventually, or I will have to rethink this "up front" stuff at least somewhat.

So... sticking a pin in that particular subject. May need some work.
  #122  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:20 PM
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them
Sorry, I need to say "us". The cat is out of the bag.
  #123  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:26 PM
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Oh, it's fear of rejection.

Well, it's also not wanting to come across as jerks, but only in the secondary sense that coming across as jerks might get them rejected.

Which, BTW, is understandable. One thing they don't tell you at player-school, is that rejection fucking sucks. Dear God, it's awful. "The worst thing that can happen is that you'll get rejected." Yeah? You make it sound easy. You failed to mention that it's completely soul-crushing. Frankly, I'd rather have my balls crushed in a revolving door any day of the week.

So, yeah, there is that. That's one problem I haven't sorted out yet. I have no idea how other people deal with it. At the moment, I just suck it up when it happens. But yeah, it's not good. I hope it gets better eventually, or I will have to rethink this "up front" stuff at least somewhat.

So... sticking a pin in that particular subject. May need some work.
For me, rejection is easy. The more you've been rejected, the easier it gets. Plus you also have the satisfaction of knowing you had the balls to put yourself out there. And you no longer have to drive yourself crazy wondering what could have been.

That's the problem with NGs. They're so afraid of rejection they avoid it at all costs. Unfortunately, the down side to this is they never grow a thick skin towards rejection. So yeah, I think it would behoove some guys to grow a pair and just put yourself out there.

Last edited by Grrr!; 05-27-2016 at 01:26 PM.
  #124  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:27 PM
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I've revisited this experience many times in my head, and for the life of me, I don't know what I did wrong other than being nice to him.
You didn't do anything wrong. Why on earth would you assume that you were to blame?

Anyway, you weren't. It's not your fault.
  #125  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:30 PM
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A little of both, plus a lot of a factor you don't seem to be getting: some of us just don't mesh with the aggressive-overt role, it isn't how we are. Not only do we not wish to come across as jerks, we're also snobbish and do not wish to beg for sex.


I just said I don't see this as a "genuinely nicer" way of being in the world, or being sexual, than any other. But I don't see it as bad or wrongful either.


And by the way, if it is wrong, it is wrong for anyone and everyone regardless of sex.
Do you think telling someone, "I'm about to confess to something. I really like you. A lot. Would you like to go on a date some time?" is "aggressive-overt?

Because as someone who doesn't like when men approach me, I think this is 100% okay.

I think there is a big zone between "passive" and "aggressive." Expressing your intentions honestly but in a diplomatic, respectful way is NEVER aggressive. It may be inappropriate for the time and place. Doesn't mean you won't rub SOMEONE the wrong way. But that doesn't make you the "bad guy" in the interaction. It just makes you someone who is confident enough to say what you mean.

I really don't know how to respond to your last two comments, since I haven't labeled anything as "bad" or "wrong". But I will say that if you aren't getting the results you want to get, then your approach isn't working. That doesn't make it objectively bad, but perhaps bad for whatever you're aiming for. It's really up to you to decide whether it's worth it to modify your interpersonal style so you can get what you want. Personally, I think being the person you want to be is worth a lot more than nookie and all the heartache that comes with it. But I realize that's an unpopular position.
  #126  
Old 05-27-2016, 01:51 PM
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You didn't do anything wrong. Why on earth would you assume that you were to blame?

Anyway, you weren't. It's not your fault.

Intellectually, I know I'm not to blame.

But whenever this topic comes up, I flashback to that guy in my past. He fit the Nice Guy stereotype so well that it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

I think he assumed that I was more socially and emotionally competent than he was, and so OF COURSE I would intuit that he had feelings for me and pick up the ball for him. When really, I am just as inept, but perhaps better at faking. So I do kinda blame myself for not having been the type of woman who can pick up "signals". He was certainly throwing them out because others noticed them (but didn't think to clue a sista in).

It would have made things weird for me if he had asked me out on a date and confessed his feelings, since we were coworkers and I don't like rejecting people. But it would have been a tolerable awkwardness that would have faded quickly, especially when compared to the weirdness I felt when he called me evil and heartless.
  #127  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:05 PM
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But what advice would "Nice Guys" have folks give them that doesn't come across as accusatory or shaming?
They don't want advice, they want to get laid.

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evil and heartless.
Of course you were evil and heartless. You didn't fuck him. Now you have to feel guilty, and fuck him out of sympathy.

Yeah, it is that ugly. These people are that ugly. It really, really isn't your fault. You can't spray for that kind of thing. How could you possibly?
  #128  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:16 PM
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A little of both, plus a lot of a factor you don't seem to be getting: some of us just don't mesh with the aggressive-overt role, it isn't how we are. Not only do we not wish to come across as jerks, we're also snobbish and do not wish to beg for sex.
I don't even really understand where this is coming from, but I've never begged for sex. I guess it's a pretty private thing so I wouldn't really know if any other men I know have to beg for sex, but I'm definitely not following why you would assume we do.
  #129  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:20 PM
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Which, BTW, is understandable. One thing they don't tell you at player-school, is that rejection fucking sucks. Dear God, it's awful. "The worst thing that can happen is that you'll get rejected." Yeah? You make it sound easy. You failed to mention that it's completely soul-crushing. Frankly, I'd rather have my balls crushed in a revolving door any day of the week.
If you have that level of worry about rejection, you need to see a therapist. Having your balls crushed in a revolving door is the kind of injury that would leave extreme pain for weeks, probably require some therapy to learn to walk again, and would forver impair your sexual functioning. Going to a therapist and getting some anxiety meds, talking about your issues and/or getting some things to work on is much simpler and less expensive than the treatment you'd need to do for what you say you'd rather have happen. Those 'assholes' who get laid all the time typically get rejected more often in a weekend than you have your entire life, they are just better adjusted and don't dwell on it.

Or you can just be bitter and blame women and 'assholes' for the serious psychological issues in your head that you refuse to treat, that seems to be the standard Nice Guy plan.
  #130  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:22 PM
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Not only do we not wish to come across as jerks, we're also snobbish and do not wish to beg for sex.

I just said I don't see this as a "genuinely nicer" way of being in the world,
When you characterize guys who are actually successfully socially interacting of begging for sex, it's pretty obvious that you think there is something wrong with what they do.
  #131  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:27 PM
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If you have that level of worry about rejection, you need to see a therapist. Having your balls crushed in a revolving door is the kind of injury that would leave extreme pain for weeks, probably require some therapy to learn to walk again, and would forver impair your sexual functioning.
Um... well, I didn't mean it literally. If we're being strictly factual here, I would obviously rather be rejected a bazillion times over, by everyone I've ever met including all the kittens, before I put my actual balls anywhere in the general proximity of the business end of an actual revolving door. I'm not totally crazy.

It was just, you know, exaggeration for attempted comedic effect. My apologies if that wasn't clear.

But, yeah, I don't find rejection to be a picnic.

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Or you can just be bitter and blame women and 'assholes' for the serious psychological issues in your head that you refuse to treat, that seems to be the standard Nice Guy plan.
Um, not to get all defensive here, but dude, context? Have you read my other contributions to this thread, at all?

Last edited by Don't Panic; 05-27-2016 at 02:30 PM.
  #132  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:38 PM
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Are "Nice Guys" more passive in their play because they don't want to come across as jerks?

Or are they afraid of rejection?

Or is it both?
My experience with frustrated Nice Guys is that they're profoundly bad at predicting how other people see them. I'm not really sure why - I don't think it's clear why that would intrinsically go along with the rest of the Nice Guy pathology. It's just something I've observed to be nearly universally true when talking to them.

So I'd say they probably do have wildly inaccurate ideas about what would be perceived as being a jerk.

That works both ways, by the way. They're overly passive because they have the incorrect notion that a respectful romantic gesture will be perceived as jerky, but then they'll turn around and be as freakish as the guy you mentioned, oblivious to how they're being perceived.
  #133  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:41 PM
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Do you think telling someone, "I'm about to confess to something. I really like you. A lot. Would you like to go on a date some time?" is "aggressive-overt?

Because as someone who doesn't like when men approach me, I think this is 100% okay.

I think there is a big zone between "passive" and "aggressive." Expressing your intentions honestly but in a diplomatic, respectful way is NEVER aggressive. It may be inappropriate for the time and place. Doesn't mean you won't rub SOMEONE the wrong way. But that doesn't make you the "bad guy" in the interaction. It just makes you someone who is confident enough to say what you mean.

I really don't know how to respond to your last two comments, since I haven't labeled anything as "bad" or "wrong". But I will say that if you aren't getting the results you want to get, then your approach isn't working.
In my case, I am getting the results I want so my approach IS working. But let's do a rewind. There was time when things were not working for me. The conventional wisdom of the time was that I should... let's see, how was it expressed upthread? "man up and be assertive". But that would not have been good advice for me.

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Personally, I think being the person you want to be is worth a lot more than nookie and all the heartache that comes with it. But I realize that's an unpopular position.
Not with me I agree completely.


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I don't even really understand where this is coming from, but I've never begged for sex. I guess it's a pretty private thing so I wouldn't really know if any other men I know have to beg for sex, but I'm definitely not following why you would assume we do.
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When you characterize guys who are actually successfully socially interacting of begging for sex, it's pretty obvious that you think there is something wrong with what they do.
Hmm, complicated. If a girl from the high school you attended had engaged in the behavior that, when you engage in it, or that successfully socially interacting guys engage in it, is not "begging for sex" when they do it, would she be seen, either in her own eyes or in the opinions of other people attending that same high school, as "begging for sex"?

There is behavior that I am already now on record as saying it is not morally wrong behavior per se, that it is not "less good behavior"... but it is not right for me. It would make me feel as if I were begging for sex, and also in the process making a bothersome nuisance of myself, and because it would make me feel that way, it is wrong behavior for me. That same behavior is likely to be behavior that I welcome with gladness when it is manifested by women, for reasons that should appear obvious at this point. So I do not mean to be condemning the behavior itself as "begging for sex" or anything of the sort.
  #134  
Old 05-27-2016, 02:54 PM
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Hmm, complicated. If a girl from the high school you attended had engaged in the behavior that, when you engage in it, or that successfully socially interacting guys engage in it, is not "begging for sex" when they do it, would she be seen, either in her own eyes or in the opinions of other people attending that same high school, as "begging for sex"?
I think I'm meeting you way more than halfway parsing that sentence, but I'll answer no, it would not. Are you very young by any chance? I'll grant you that high school boys are a lot more likely to beg for sex than any grown man is. I'm not quite sure why you bring up high school.

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There is behavior that I am already now on record as saying it is not morally wrong behavior per se, that it is not "less good behavior"... but it is not right for me. It would make me feel as if I were begging for sex, and also in the process making a bothersome nuisance of myself, and because it would make me feel that way, it is wrong behavior for me. That same behavior is likely to be behavior that I welcome with gladness when it is manifested by women, for reasons that should appear obvious at this point. So I do not mean to be condemning the behavior itself as "begging for sex" or anything of the sort.
I don't doubt that you already described this behavior, but since I don't believe it was specifically in the context of how it constitutes begging for sex, could you give us maybe 3 examples?
  #135  
Old 05-27-2016, 03:12 PM
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Are "Nice Guys" more passive in their play because they don't want to come across as jerks?

Or are they afraid of rejection?

Or is it both?
Actually, one more thing on this:

It's not just fear of rejection. It's also the calculated chance of rejection. Which is probably, in many cases, correctly estimated at very close to or equivalent to 100%. I mean, let's be honest: In many cases, "nice guys" never have a chance with the women they want in the first place.

The problem is that this estimate is then combined with the belief that a certain kind of consistent "nice guy" type behavior will improve the odds, over time, until the legs of the woman in question magically spring open. Which is the part that is deluded six ways from Sunday.

This is relevant to something that was touched upon earlier. As mentioned early in the thread, "nice guys" will persist in their, um, pursuit, for lack of a better word, even with women they actually don't have a snowball's chance in Haiti of actually getting anywhere with. And they know the odds, they've done the math, and the math checks out. At that point, the sane thing to do would be to abandon the project. But they think that by doing X, Y and Z long enough, the odds will change.

I suppose this is part of the whole Nice Guy Complex of Horror: In part because of this, they can be really, really crap at picking the right women to crush on.

Last edited by Don't Panic; 05-27-2016 at 03:16 PM.
  #136  
Old 05-27-2016, 03:15 PM
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I think he assumed that I was more socially and emotionally competent than he was, and so OF COURSE I would intuit that he had feelings for me and pick up the ball for him. When really, I am just as inept, but perhaps better at faking. So I do kinda blame myself for not having been the type of woman who can pick up "signals". He was certainly throwing them out because others noticed them (but didn't think to clue a sista in).
It wouldn't have helped if you were clued in. What could you have done? Avoid him? Heartless bitch! Rejected him without a move? Heartless conceited bitch! Gone on as it was? You saw how that worked out.
  #137  
Old 05-27-2016, 03:59 PM
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Hmm, complicated. If a girl from the high school you attended had engaged in the behavior that, when you engage in it, or that successfully socially interacting guys engage in it, is not "begging for sex" when they do it, would she be seen, either in her own eyes or in the opinions of other people attending that same high school, as "begging for sex"?
I've been out of high school longer than the WWW has existed, so I don't base anything in my life around what some high schooler from the last millennium might have thought about whether an activity is socially acceptable for which gender. Even with less of a gap, if you're not still in high school, why do you give a crap what high schoolers think about social activities? That's not a rhetorical question, is there any reason that the hypothetical opinions of some kids back at the start of the 90s are relevant to anything happening now?

(From what I've seen, an obsession with High School is pretty common among Nice Guys and a lot of other people who don't do well dating. And it's not a healthy thing at all.)
  #138  
Old 05-27-2016, 04:23 PM
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(From what I've seen, an obsession with High School is pretty common among Nice Guys and a lot of other people who don't do well dating. And it's not a healthy thing at all.)
Well, when it's the last time you had any action, you gotta work with the reference points you have.
  #139  
Old 05-27-2016, 04:57 PM
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Well, when it's the last time you had any action, you gotta work with the reference points you have.
I'm not totally sure if you're joking or serious, but just in case you're serious that is definitely not wise or prudent. If you want to be successful you need to figure out what is expected of you at your current age and behave accordingly.

If a man were married at 18 and divorced 30 years later, would you try to date like a teenager did in the mid 80s, or would you awkwardly figure out how middle aged divorcees date in 2016? The latter is the correct answer.
  #140  
Old 05-27-2016, 05:12 PM
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I'm not totally sure if you're joking or serious, but just in case you're serious that is definitely not wise or prudent.
You're nut sure? WFT? First it was Pantastic upthread, and now you? What is this, "take MB's obvious jokes at face value" week? I don't recall normally having this problem.

Yes, I'm joking! I'm joking!

BTW, here's a rule of thumb: If in doubt, I'm joking.
  #141  
Old 05-27-2016, 05:19 PM
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Is it fair to say that there are many reasons people of all genders can have problems attracting romantic partners?
In my case it was mostly extreme social anxiety and inability to read signals. I misread signal both ways, thinking there was interest when there wasn't and not seeing it when there was. When there was interest on my part I'm sure I usually looked like a deer in the headlights. Attractive, huh? I'm not a bad looking guy, but not good looking enough to make up for that. When my wife and I met it happened so fast I didn't have time to think about it.

The idea of thinking I'm owed sex is foreign to me. I guess there are "what's wrong with them" Nice Guys and "what's wrong with me" nice guys. I certainly identified as one of the latter. I'm not saying I always treated people with as much respect as I should have. I'm sure I fell short sometimes. I definitely got to the "what's the point of even trying" stage. Within a year of getting there I was married. Of course being a good spouse and parent carries a whole new set of challenges; definitely harder, but also fulilling.
  #142  
Old 05-27-2016, 05:31 PM
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It wouldn't have helped if you were clued in. What could you have done? Avoid him? Heartless bitch! Rejected him without a move? Heartless conceited bitch! Gone on as it was? You saw how that worked out.
You're probably right, but I guess this is what I'm trying to figure out: Is the problem completely self-inflicted? Or do social norms really make it difficult for Nice Guys?

And if there is even just a teeny sliver truth in the latter, what can be done about it?

I know that the glib answer is that it's the Nice Guys don't want anything to be done except for women to start saying "yes" to their non-advances. But I'm guessing a lot of guys just want women to be more assertive with their own sexuality and stop waiting for the man do all the work. I don't think this is going to happen on a widespread basis any time soon. But is it an unreasonable desire?

AHunter has helped me understand just a little bit better. I think that if I were a guy, I'd resent the idea that I must be the one who initiates or else I'm less of a man. I'd understand intellectually that them's the rules, but it would still engender a certain bitterness in me and perhaps a desire to rally against the rules and those who perpetuate them.

Perhaps as gender roles continue to evolve, passive guys won't be at such a disadvantage and it will be those more assertive guys who start being all bitchy and moany. I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking things.
  #143  
Old 05-27-2016, 06:03 PM
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I have trouble resenting what exists by nature. It's not going to change anytime soon. You deal with it and adapt.

It's really not rocket science. There are successful methods, and if you want to succeed, you figure out what they are in some way and make appropriate changes. Otherwise you can rationalize it all you want, but you're still not getting any, or having a chance at finding a real relationship.
  #144  
Old 05-27-2016, 06:10 PM
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You're probably right, but I guess this is what I'm trying to figure out: Is the problem completely self-inflicted? Or do social norms really make it difficult for Nice Guys?

And if there is even just a teeny sliver truth in the latter, what can be done about it?

I know that the glib answer is that it's the Nice Guys don't want anything to be done except for women to start saying "yes" to their non-advances. But I'm guessing a lot of guys just want women to be more assertive with their own sexuality and stop waiting for the man do all the work. I don't think this is going to happen on a widespread basis any time soon. But is it an unreasonable desire?

AHunter has helped me understand just a little bit better. I think that if I were a guy, I'd resent the idea that I must be the one who initiates or else I'm less of a man. I'd understand intellectually that them's the rules, but it would still engender a certain bitterness in me and perhaps a desire to rally against the rules and those who perpetuate them.

Perhaps as gender roles continue to evolve, passive guys won't be at such a disadvantage and it will be those more assertive guys who start being all bitchy and moany. I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking things.
If a woman hadn't initiated something with me many years ago I might be a whiney, dateless old man. I always thought it was unfair that I was expected to make the first move, but life ain't always fair. Also, how many women who are willing to make the first move are going to make it with a guy who has no confidence? In my experience, the number was one. Lucky for me, that was enougn. I'm sure it helped that we were both established career wise and looking to get married and settle down.

Our kids both experience social anxiety, and are getting therapy to help them deal with it. I grew up in an era when most parents wouldn't think of making sure their kids got help for that kind of thing.
  #145  
Old 05-27-2016, 06:39 PM
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You're nut sure? WFT? First it was Pantastic upthread, and now you? What is this, "take MB's obvious jokes at face value" week? I don't recall normally having this problem.

Yes, I'm joking! I'm joking!

BTW, here's a rule of thumb: If in doubt, I'm joking.
Well now that you've admitted to being a secret Nice Guy, we all have to assume you're pretty clueless when it comes to women.

Seriously though, you've made plenty of really smart posts in this thread, but what you posted as a joke is not at all out of line with things unhappy men have posted on Internet discussion forums.

For example: just a couple hours ago AHunter3 brought up high school girls, which started this whole digression. I agree with Pantastic. Maybe AHunter3 happens to be 19 years old. We don't know. But barring that it strikes me as truly strange to even bring up what anyone would think of a high school girl.
  #146  
Old 05-27-2016, 06:49 PM
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Maybe AHunter3 happens to be 19 years old. We don't know.
Good grief, I sure hope not. I've been tearing him a new asshole for days now. I don't like to think that I've been picking on someone that much smaller than my own size.

Even if it is for his own good, dammit.
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Old 05-27-2016, 07:09 PM
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AHunter has helped me understand just a little bit better. I think that if I were a guy, I'd resent the idea that I must be the one who initiates or else I'm less of a man. I'd understand intellectually that them's the rules, but it would still engender a certain bitterness in me and perhaps a desire to rally against the rules and those who perpetuate them.

Perhaps as gender roles continue to evolve, passive guys won't be at such a disadvantage and it will be those more assertive guys who start being all bitchy and moany. I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking things.
I think passive people are at a disadvantage, and always have been. If you're waiting for someone else to make moves, some of the people who never make moves are people you wish would, and vice versa. Tends to be true in any other pursuit as well.

But yes, I do think some of the very strict boundaries are falling apart. Some of that has to do with younger people simply not dating the same way.
  #148  
Old 05-27-2016, 07:54 PM
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The idea of thinking I'm owed sex is foreign to me. I guess there are "what's wrong with them" Nice Guys and "what's wrong with me" nice guys. I certainly identified as one of the latter. I'm not saying I always treated people with as much respect as I should have. I'm sure I fell short sometimes.
Jeez, dude... you're only human. We all fall short sometimes.

You don't sound like a "nice guy", in the sense we're using the term (as in manipulative, passive-aggressive with occasional sudden forays into downright aggressive, whiny, misanthropic ... did I forget anything? ... and not actually nice). You just sound like a timid, you know, actually nice guy. This isn't really about beating up on all timid, shy guys. I mean, most of them could probably use some manning up, the little twits, but I don't hate them, in general.

As for the "owed sex" thing, when it comes to "nice guys" (just to make a general comment on that, since you happened to mention it)... it can be a bit indirect. The "nice guy" probably hasn't formulated the sentence "I am owed sex" in his mind. If you ask him straight up: "Do you feel that you are owed sex?", he'll probably vehemently deny it, and even believe his own denial.

But when you go off the deep end, and call someone evil and heartless (and I have called a couple of people similar things, and worse, in a loud and angry voice), simply because they didn't fuck you... that's thinking you're owed sex. Or at least that's the only reasonable interpretation, as far as I can tell.

And yes, it is about the fucking. I'm sure the "nice guy" would love to have a deep and meaningful relationship with his lady friend, as well. He's a deep thinker and a sensitive chap. But the fucking part is very important, so she'd better make sure to do that first, and not forget. And if the fucking is all he gets, yeah, he'll settle just fine for that, no problemo.

Last edited by Don't Panic; 05-27-2016 at 07:56 PM.
  #149  
Old 05-27-2016, 08:36 PM
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It's too bad that "Nice" guys have completely poisoned this type of topic and discussion on the Internet.

There are many genuinely nice guys who, for some reason - be they autistic, shy, nervous, had a harsh upbringing, had some trauma, are socially inept, physically unattractive, etc. - who genuinely have difficulty in the area of romance or relationships. They're not misogynist, entitled, or undercover Elliot Rodgers.


But because of "nice" guys who are all of those malicious/negative attributes, this results in many genuinely nice guys getting smeared and viciously attacked on the Internet. I'm sure many genuinely nice guys ask for such advice on the Internet and then unexpectedly get hammered by people who think they're one of the repulsive "nice" guys.


It's really quite unfortunate. The discussion is thoroughly poisoned.
  #150  
Old 05-27-2016, 08:55 PM
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It's really quite unfortunate. The discussion is thoroughly poisoned.
This is true. Or the discussion is at least confused. We really need to make it clear that we're talking about two very different things.

OK, let's look at terminology. How about we start with nuking the terms "nice guy" (in quotes), Nice Guy (capitalized), Nice Guy TM (trademark sign), etc, and just replace those with "shithead"? Then, we'll reserve the term nice guy for actually nice guys?

'Cause I'm noticing that I'm having a hard time being precise here.
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