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  #51  
Old 07-21-2014, 06:16 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
Novelty Bobble:



It's not supposed to "fool" anyone. It's supposed to accomplish what we want without violating the laws that G-d laid out.
I agree with you so far.

Quote:
You seem to be under the impression that G-d said "Don't ride in an elevator." He didn't say that. He said "Refrain from (physically) creative work."
Disagree. That's not what he's quoted as writing to Moses.

Quote:
This work has a precise definition. Using an elevator in an ordinary manner (e.g., pressing the buttons which actively completes a circuit to achieve your deisres) is creative work. Using an elevator that is pre-set to stop on every floor does not consist of creative work. Far from "fooling G-d", we are obeying him and every round-about contrivance that puts our convenience in line with said obedience is an expression of how important G-d's word is, to us.
That's what the rabbis have decided the Lord meant, not what the Lord said.
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  #52  
Old 07-21-2014, 07:32 PM
sqweels sqweels is offline
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I've heard it argued among Jews that "God deliberately put those loopholes in the law for us to exploit", but that seems like obvious BS.
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  #53  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:03 PM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
Novelty Bobble:



It's not supposed to "fool" anyone. It's supposed to accomplish what we want without violating the laws that G-d laid out.

You seem to be under the impression that G-d said "Don't ride in an elevator." He didn't say that. He said "Refrain from (physically) creative work." This work has a precise definition. Using an elevator in an ordinary manner (e.g., pressing the buttons which actively completes a circuit to achieve your deisres) is creative work. Using an elevator that is pre-set to stop on every floor does not consist of creative work. Far from "fooling G-d", we are obeying him and every round-about contrivance that puts our convenience in line with said obedience is an expression of how important G-d's word is, to us....
This contrasts greatly with what you see in Protestantism. Most Protestant traditions have few "rules" about this and that. Certainly there are no rules that go down to the specificity of Orthodox Jewish viewpoints on "work" on the Sabbath. Protestants, to the extent that they observe a sabbath, generally see the "do not work" prohibition not as something to pick apart and write dissertations analyzing different nuances of the rules and how to do what you want despite the rule, but as a strong message saying, "Hey! Take a break!". The point is to take a break, relax, spend time with family, spend time with church members, read the Bible, pray, etc. If your way to take a break is to pile the kids in the car, drive to Tennessee, and have a big bonfire and sing hymns, go for it.

Likewise, when Protestants say "do not murder", they mean don't murder people in a broad, moral sense. If you want someone dead, and try to approach the situation to try to find a way to somehow get them killed without violating the "do not murder" prohibition, you will have violated it anyway.

Also see Matthew 5:28. Saying, "I only kissed her!" (or only had oral sex, which isn't really sex anyway, or only did heavy petting, etc.) is no defense to the sin of adultery. The point is your attitude and intent, not the specifics of your behavior and whether you found a way to get around the rules.
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  #54  
Old 07-22-2014, 07:17 AM
eenerms eenerms is offline
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Having lived in the ME for over 16 years(Saudi Arabia and Qatar) I've lived through my share of Ramadans. There were some Muslims who took it to extremes, staying up all night etc. Saudi they hired non Muslims to take up the slack so to speak to finish the work days. There It was very very strict for non Muslims about eating drinking etc in public. (Qatar not so much, restaurants were open but eating areas curtained off)

I always thought that how a Muslim ,or anyone for that matter who has certain rules to follow , interprets the spirit of Ramadan , Lent, Shabbat etc . It's between them and their God.
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  #55  
Old 07-22-2014, 09:42 AM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals...

except the weasel.
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  #56  
Old 07-22-2014, 01:08 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Originally Posted by robert_columbia View Post
Also see Matthew 5:28.
So, in a discussion with an Orthodox Jew, about how God wants Jews to act... you cite the New Testament.

Good job. I'm sure that'll be super-effective.
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  #57  
Old 07-22-2014, 01:53 PM
cmkeller cmkeller is offline
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Monty:

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Disagree. That's not what he's quoted as writing to Moses.
What, do you want the quote in Hebrew? "Lo Sa-asu Kol Melakha" - translation, "Do not do any melakha", a word which has historically been loosely translated as "work" but is one of several Hebrew words which can translate to the English "work," and has a more precise definition than simply that. The phrase "physically creative work" is accurate to the various Biblical contexts that the word "melakha" is used in.

Quote:
That's what the rabbis have decided the Lord meant, not what the Lord said.
Look, I'm not going to tell you that there's some sort of objective proof that the Rabbinically-determined meaning is direct tradition from Moses on down. But I will say that you can't just discount that tradition either. The Rabbinic Jewish understanding of the Torah is really the only filter through which modern times has ever seen the Torah. You might disbelieve the institution of the Talmud and Rabbinate, and seek some sort of external clues as to an alternate meaning, but nothing changes the fact that the Torah as we know it is what we know from the teachings of Jewish Rabbis.
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  #58  
Old 07-22-2014, 02:51 PM
marshmallow marshmallow is offline
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Sounds about as legit as people giving up chocolate or coffee for lent. Such sacrifices!
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  #59  
Old 07-22-2014, 04:59 PM
Ann Hedonia Ann Hedonia is online now
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There is a woman that has worked for me - helping me out with housework 1 day a week - for about 15 years. She is an Eastern European Muslim and observes Ramadan.

Her and her family don't stay up all night but they do shift their schedules a little bit - eating a large meal daily at 1AM or so and they tend to sleep a little later than usual. It's more difficult in the summer - no water or liquids during the day is tougher in hot weather and sunset is much later which extends the fasting hours.

So I got this text from her Saturday night -- "YAY I can have coffee tomorrow, you know what I mean"
And I knew what she meant........... totally TMI but her period had started. And apparently there's an exception for menstruation. The next day over coffee and doughnuts we talked about how sometimes it was a good thing that her culture treated menstruation as an illness rather than a normal bodily function.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 07-22-2014 at 05:00 PM..
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  #60  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:40 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
Monty:



What, do you want the quote in Hebrew? "Lo Sa-asu Kol Melakha" - translation, "Do not do any melakha", a word which has historically been loosely translated as "work" but is one of several Hebrew words which can translate to the English "work," and has a more precise definition than simply that. The phrase "physically creative work" is accurate to the various Biblical contexts that the word "melakha" is used in.



Look, I'm not going to tell you that there's some sort of objective proof that the Rabbinically-determined meaning is direct tradition from Moses on down. But I will say that you can't just discount that tradition either. The Rabbinic Jewish understanding of the Torah is really the only filter through which modern times has ever seen the Torah. You might disbelieve the institution of the Talmud and Rabbinate, and seek some sort of external clues as to an alternate meaning, but nothing changes the fact that the Torah as we know it is what we know from the teachings of Jewish Rabbis.
I'm not discounting anything. I'm merely pointing out that the rabbis interpreted the wording as, you say, with a filter (IIRC, some have called it a fence).

Last edited by Monty; 07-22-2014 at 05:43 PM..
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  #61  
Old 07-22-2014, 08:33 PM
Bozuit Bozuit is offline
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
So, in a discussion with an Orthodox Jew, about how God wants Jews to act... you cite the New Testament.

Good job. I'm sure that'll be super-effective.
You left out the key detail where the citation was contained within a post about how Protestants interpret the will of God. Considering that this thread is about Ramadan, I don't see how introducing Matthew is any crazier than Shabbat.
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  #62  
Old 07-23-2014, 04:56 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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You know, it's kind of like rich Catholics going out on Fridays during Lent and having a big fancy lobster and shrimp dinner. You're paying a fortune, and eating all this fancy food, but hey, you're not eating meat! Wouldn't it be better to stay home and eat leftover meatloaf? (I hate meatloaf)

Fish fries are one thing -- a lot of them are run by the churches, so they make money for the parishes. And the fish is really good, but it's not like, gourmet restaurant good. It's not fancy food, just good old-fashioned church lady type stuff. But going out for these big shindigs -- that's one of those WWJD moments.
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  #63  
Old 07-23-2014, 06:05 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozuit View Post
You left out the key detail where the citation was contained within a post about how Protestants interpret the will of God.
I thought about pointing out that, too, but I was afraid it would just come across as mean.
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  #64  
Old 07-23-2014, 06:47 PM
Bozuit Bozuit is offline
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Am I missing something here?
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  #65  
Old 07-23-2014, 07:01 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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I'm saying that the "key detail" you said I left out is demonstrating exactly the same error as the part I quoted.
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  #66  
Old 07-23-2014, 07:06 PM
Bozuit Bozuit is offline
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The "error" being what? Going mildly off-topic?
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  #67  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:31 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
You know, it's kind of like rich Catholics going out on Fridays during Lent and having a big fancy lobster and shrimp dinner.
Yeah, and they get all lazy and slack off....



Loaf and the fishes, right? I don't know Christian stuff....
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  #68  
Old 07-24-2014, 09:36 AM
Bozuit Bozuit is offline
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The "fish on Friday" thing isn't related to the stories "Feeding of the 5000" or the "Feeding of the 4000", both of which involved loaves and fish. It's just a somewhat arbitrary fasting thing that evolved from Jewish tradition. Friday was chosen because that's the day Jesus was supposed to have been crucified, I believe.

ETA: As far as I know, Lent is a separate issue and is to do with a story of Jesus going into the desert and fasting for 40 days.

Last edited by Bozuit; 07-24-2014 at 09:39 AM..
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  #69  
Old 07-24-2014, 09:37 AM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
I know many Muslims who feel the same way the OP does about people not really embracing the spirit of Ramadan. It's kind of like Christians who feel too many people don't embrace the true spirit of Christmas. As has been pointed out, not all Muslims behave the way you describe.
This is one of the best analogies I've seen.

Whenever you have a religious practice, you are going to have some people who really get into the spirit of it and truly want to follow the principles and meanings of it. Some people don't really care for it and make the minimum amount of sacrifice necessary to not face social or familial censure.

Last edited by robert_columbia; 07-24-2014 at 09:38 AM..
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  #70  
Old 07-24-2014, 09:39 AM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Originally Posted by eenerms View Post
...I always thought that how a Muslim ,or anyone for that matter who has certain rules to follow , interprets the spirit of Ramadan , Lent, Shabbat etc . It's between them and their God.
This.
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