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  #151  
Old 04-12-2017, 03:12 PM
Skara_Brae Skara_Brae is offline
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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
I understand the point you're making, but acknowledging that people around you have formed an opinion about you without knowing anything about you and just dealing with it is, literally, submitting to prejudice. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers and possibly make things even worse for himself, but it is what he's doing.
The man in question is not doing anything different. He is continuing to freely walk down the street. The only thing he is not doing is becoming offended when women avoid him. What is the alternative? Should he walk around bristling with rage and yelling nasty comments at people?
  #152  
Old 04-12-2017, 03:13 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Cool story. I see nothing in it about a baby. Just absentmindedly forgetting stuff that is demonstrably NOT an infant baby.
  #153  
Old 04-12-2017, 04:25 PM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Cool story. I see nothing in it about a baby. Just absentmindedly forgetting stuff that is demonstrably NOT an infant baby.
Let me help you, apparently you skipped this paragraph when you read the article several times:
Quote:
“Some people think, ‘Okay, I can see forgetting a child for two minutes, but not eight hours.’ What they don’t understand is that the parent in his or her mind has dropped off the baby at day care and thinks the baby is happy and well taken care of. Once that’s in your brain, there is no reason to worry or check on the baby for the rest of the day.”
Those people are not manson1972, however, who checks on his children every three seconds whether they are being cared for or not. So they are negligent.
  #154  
Old 04-12-2017, 04:30 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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sorry, I meant the new story posted today. I forgot to quote it and another post snuck in before mine.

Please reread and then re-comment.
  #155  
Old 04-12-2017, 04:38 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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And since you went through the trouble of posting:

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Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
Let me help you, apparently you skipped this paragraph when you read the article several times:
“Some people think, ‘Okay, I can see forgetting a child for two minutes, but not eight hours.’ What they don’t understand is that the parent in his or her mind has dropped off the baby at day care and thinks the baby is happy and well taken care of. Once that’s in your brain, there is no reason to worry or check on the baby for the rest of the day.”

Yes, and those parents are stupid. "There is no reason to worry or check on the baby FOR THE REST OF THE DAY!"

Really? When your baby is in daycare, NOBODY thinks "Hmmm, wonder what junior is doing right now? Hope he is not crying too much."?? You just put your baby out of your mind for 8 hours? Not a single thought?

Guess those parents getting nanny cams are just over-worrying parents. I mean, worrying or checking in on their baby while the nanny is watching them? That's just preposterous! Those are hours that the parents could NOT be worrying or checking in on their baby!

Stupid, just plain stupid parents.
  #156  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:38 AM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
And since you went through the trouble of posting:



“Some people think, ‘Okay, I can see forgetting a child for two minutes, but not eight hours.’ What they don’t understand is that the parent in his or her mind has dropped off the baby at day care and thinks the baby is happy and well taken care of. Once that’s in your brain, there is no reason to worry or check on the baby for the rest of the day.”

Yes, and those parents are stupid. "There is no reason to worry or check on the baby FOR THE REST OF THE DAY!"

Really? When your baby is in daycare, NOBODY thinks "Hmmm, wonder what junior is doing right now? Hope he is not crying too much."?? You just put your baby out of your mind for 8 hours? Not a single thought?

Guess those parents getting nanny cams are just over-worrying parents. I mean, worrying or checking in on their baby while the nanny is watching them? That's just preposterous! Those are hours that the parents could NOT be worrying or checking in on their baby!

Stupid, just plain stupid parents.
Okay, so you haven't actually read the article, and now I doubt that you're actually a parent. Yes, when you truly believe that, for example, the other parent has taken care of Junior, you relax. Otherwise, what sort of manic distrustful marriage do you have?

If every parent called every daycare every hour, caregivers wouldn't have any time to watch the kids. I pity the daycare that would have to look after your fictional children.

One thing I can tell you from my own upbringing: I have been forgotten, somewhere, by each and every member of my own family. My own mother, who drove me to and from school every day, drove all the way home one day while I was waiting for her to pick me up. Thirty minutes, and it never occurred to her that I wasn't with her, the way I always was. She had to drive another 30 minutes back to get me, and another 30 home. So I know it happens, and not out of malice or extreme inattention. She had been out of her routine for a few days, and the first day back, she just plain forgot. It happens. Especially when all of your safeguards against forgetting happen to fail on the same day, like they did for Lyn Balfour.

Read the damn story. Read it again and again until you can rewrite it in your own words. And then pray it never happens to anyone you know.
  #157  
Old 04-13-2017, 01:10 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
Okay, so you haven't actually read the article, and now I doubt that you're actually a parent. Yes, when you truly believe that, for example, the other parent has taken care of Junior, you relax.

If every parent called every daycare every hour, caregivers wouldn't have any time to watch the kids. I pity the daycare that would have to look after your fictional children.
Yes, I have read the article, and yes I am a parent. The quote I posted did NOT say call every hour. It said that parents should not even worry or think about their infant children for 8 straight hours. You HONESTLY believe that there is a parent that doesn't think or worry about their infant child for 8 hours (assuming they are not asleep)?? You must, since you seem to believe that leaving an infant child in a car to die is something that could happen to anyone. Maybe it only happens to people who have the ability to not worry or think about their infant children for long stretches of time.

Quote:
One thing I can tell you from my own upbringing: I have been forgotten, somewhere, by each and every member of my own family. My own mother, who drove me to and from school every day, drove all the way home one day while I was waiting for her to pick me up. Thirty minutes, and it never occurred to her that I wasn't with her, the way I always was. She had to drive another 30 minutes back to get me, and another 30 home. So I know it happens, and not out of malice or extreme inattention. She had been out of her routine for a few days, and the first day back, she just plain forgot. It happens. Especially when all of your safeguards against forgetting happen to fail on the same day, like they did for Lyn Balfour.
Wow! You went to school when you were an infant? Did they have a car seat in the school bus? If not, then I don't see what your cool story about your forgetful mother has to do with leaving an infant child in a hot car to die.
  #158  
Old 04-13-2017, 02:18 PM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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I'm just going to address every point with a quote from the Washington Post article from here on out.

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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Yes, I have read the article, and yes I am a parent. The quote I posted did NOT say call every hour. It said that parents should not even worry or think about their infant children for 8 straight hours. You HONESTLY believe that there is a parent that doesn't think or worry about their infant child for 8 hours (assuming they are not asleep)??
"Several people -- including Mary Parks of Blacksburg -- have driven from their workplace to the day-care center to pick up the child they’d thought they’d dropped off, never noticing the corpse in the back seat."

Quote:
You must, since you seem to believe that leaving an infant child in a car to die is something that could happen to anyone.
"What kind of person forgets a baby?

The wealthy do, it turns out. And the poor, and the middle class. Parents of all ages and ethnicities do it. Mothers are just as likely to do it as fathers. It happens to the chronically absent-minded and to the fanatically organized, to the college-educated and to the marginally literate. In the last 10 years, it has happened to a dentist. A postal clerk. A social worker. A police officer. An accountant. A soldier. A paralegal. An electrician. A Protestant clergyman. A rabbinical student. A nurse. A construction worker. An assistant principal. It happened to a mental health counselor, a college professor and a pizza chef. It happened to a pediatrician. It happened to a rocket scientist."

Quote:
Maybe it only happens to people who have the ability to not worry or think about their infant children for long stretches of time.
"“Memory is a machine,” [David Diamond] says, “and it is not flawless. Our conscious mind prioritizes things by importance, but on a cellular level, our memory does not. If you’re capable of forgetting your cellphone, you are potentially capable of forgetting your child.”"

Quote:
Wow! You went to school when you were an infant? Did they have a car seat in the school bus? If not, then I don't see what your cool story about your forgetful mother has to do with leaving an infant child in a hot car to die.
"It was “a big doggone accident,” [James Schlothauer, foreman of the jury that acquitted Lyn Balfour] says, that might have happened to anyone.

To anyone?

Schlothauer hesitates.

“Well, it happened to me.”

The results were not catastrophic, Schlothauer says, but the underlying malfunction was similar: Busy and stressed, he and his wife once got their responsibilities confused, and neither stopped at day care for their daughter at the end of the day.

“We both got home, and it was, ‘Wait, where’s Lily?’ ‘I thought you got her!’ ‘I thought you got her!’ “

What if that mix-up had happened at the beginning of the day?

“To anyone,” Schlothauer says."
  #159  
Old 04-13-2017, 03:01 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
I'm just going to address every point with a quote from the Washington Post article from here on out.
I'll just address a couple points:


Quote:
"Several people -- including Mary Parks of Blacksburg -- have driven from their workplace to the day-care center to pick up the child they’d thought they’d dropped off, never noticing the corpse in the back seat."
Several. SEVERAL! Several people have not noticed the corpse of their baby in the back seat. SEVERAL PEOPLE! As opposed to the millions upon millions of people who did NOT do that. But somehow, instead of there being something wrong with those SEVERAL people, millions upon millions of other people must be capable of doing the same thing those SEVERAL stupid people did??

Quote:
"It was “a big doggone accident,” [James Schlothauer, foreman of the jury that acquitted Lyn Balfour] says, that might have happened to anyone.

“To anyone,” Schlothauer says."
Well, I guess that since one foreman of a jury and A GUY WHO FORGOT HIS KID AT DAYCARE say it could happen to anyone, then they must be right! A guy who forgot his kid at daycare couldn't POSSIBLY be biased on who is capable of forgetting their kid at daycare.
  #160  
Old 04-13-2017, 04:14 PM
Strassia Strassia is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Yes, I have read the article, and yes I am a parent. The quote I posted did NOT say call every hour. It said that parents should not even worry or think about their infant children for 8 straight hours. You HONESTLY believe that there is a parent that doesn't think or worry about their infant child for 8 hours (assuming they are not asleep)?? You must, since you seem to believe that leaving an infant child in a car to die is something that could happen to anyone. Maybe it only happens to people who have the ability to not worry or think about their infant children for long stretches of time.
I have two kids. Both went to daycare and preschool. sure I probably thought about them multiple times each day. What does that have to do with this situation? Does anyone pick up the phone and call to check on their child everytime they think about them? I probably reached out to contact the school or daycare center to check up on my kids a couple of times a year, not a couple of times a day. Because unless I thought they might be getting sick or have some other unusual situation, I trusted my day care provider. Otherwise, my kids would not be there in the first place.
  #161  
Old 04-13-2017, 04:39 PM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I'll just address a couple points:




Several. SEVERAL! Several people have not noticed the corpse of their baby in the back seat. SEVERAL PEOPLE! As opposed to the millions upon millions of people who did NOT do that. But somehow, instead of there being something wrong with those SEVERAL people, millions upon millions of other people must be capable of doing the same thing those SEVERAL stupid people did??



Well, I guess that since one foreman of a jury and A GUY WHO FORGOT HIS KID AT DAYCARE say it could happen to anyone, then they must be right! A guy who forgot his kid at daycare couldn't POSSIBLY be biased on who is capable of forgetting their kid at daycare.
"In 2000, Chris Edwards, Terry Mack and Edward Modlin began to work on just such a product after one of their colleagues, Kevin Shelton, accidentally left his 9-month-old son to die in the parking lot of NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va. The inventors patented a device with weight sensors and a keychain alarm. Based on aerospace technology, it was easy to use; it was relatively cheap, and it worked.

Janette Fennell had high hopes for this product: The dramatic narrative behind it, she felt, and the fact that it came from NASA, created a likelihood of widespread publicity and public acceptance.

That was five years ago. The device still isn’t on the shelves. The inventors could not find a commercial partner willing to manufacture it. One big problem was liability. If you made it, you could face enormous lawsuits if it malfunctioned and a child died. But another big problem was psychological: Marketing studies suggested it wouldn’t sell well.

The problem is this simple: People think this could never happen to them."
  #162  
Old 04-13-2017, 05:29 PM
The King of Soup The King of Soup is offline
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May as well give up. If there were a single instance of a baby waking up from its nap and crawling into the Amana, manson1972 would be claiming s/he defrosts the freezer every ten minutes. If one kid escaped from day care and crawled into the gondola of a hot-air balloon that later became untethered, manson1972's parental routine would have always included regular calls to the FAA.

God knows why, but you are not going to convince him/her that an event can be both rare and random. In an unfunny version of the old joke, s/he thinks it's the banana in her ear that keeps the tigers away.
  #163  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:49 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by The King of Soup View Post
May as well give up. If there were a single instance of a baby waking up from its nap and crawling into the Amana, manson1972 would be claiming s/he defrosts the freezer every ten minutes. If one kid escaped from day care and crawled into the gondola of a hot-air balloon that later became untethered, manson1972's parental routine would have always included regular calls to the FAA.
This is pretty funny

Quote:
God knows why, but you are not going to convince him/her that an event can be both rare and random
What? I agree that an event can be both rare and random.

What I don't agree with is parents, who were so inattentive/stupid to leave their infant child in a car, somehow have credibility when they say "Well, it could happen to anyone!" No, it cannot. It happens to stupid people who do stupid things in the course of paying more attention to things besides their infant children. And in your rush to feel sorry for stupid people who left their child to die, you somehow find it abnormal for parents to worry about their infant children throughout a day. And further, you ascribe situations that a very few stupid people have brought upon themselves as "something that could happen to anyone" and even go so far as to compare cell phones, glasses, and keys to a human infant. Good luck with that.
  #164  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:53 PM
Human Action Human Action is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
And further, you ascribe situations that a very few stupid people have brought upon themselves as "something that could happen to anyone" and even go so far as to compare cell phones, glasses, and keys to a human infant. Good luck with that.
Ah, so the neuroscientist says that on an unconscious, cellular level, our memory can't prioritize things by importance, but you know he's wrong.

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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Several. SEVERAL! Several people have not noticed the corpse of their baby in the back seat. SEVERAL PEOPLE! As opposed to the millions upon millions of people who did NOT do that. But somehow, instead of there being something wrong with those SEVERAL people, millions upon millions of other people must be capable of doing the same thing those SEVERAL stupid people did??
I'm sure if you put those several people in an MRI, they'd have lazy brains that didn't love their children enough. It's just good science.
  #165  
Old 04-14-2017, 04:13 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Ah, so the neuroscientist says that on an unconscious, cellular level, our memory can't prioritize things by importance, but you know he's wrong
I didn't say he was wrong. I just don't care what happens at an unconscious level, since I make a conscious decision to know where my infant child is located.

Quote:
I'm sure if you put those several people in an MRI, they'd have lazy brains that didn't love their children enough. It's just good science.
Who knows? Did they try it?

Do you honestly doubt that there are people in the world who are more absent-minded then the rest of the people? You don't think there are people who are more forgetful than others? I guess everyone on the planet is the exact same when it comes to priorities, attentiveness, awareness, or ability to pay attention.
  #166  
Old 04-15-2017, 09:57 PM
Human Action Human Action is offline
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I didn't say he was wrong. I just don't care what happens at an unconscious level, since I make a conscious decision to know where my infant child is located.
As the neuroscientist in the Washington Post article explains, under a combination of stress and routine activity, the conscious mind can be overwritten by the basal ganglia. You can't choose for this not to occur.

Quote:
Who knows? Did they try it?
I was mocking your attempt to moralize brain function, but mockery requires self-awareness from the subject to be effective. Oh well.

Quote:
Do you honestly doubt that there are people in the world who are more absent-minded then the rest of the people? You don't think there are people who are more forgetful than others? I guess everyone on the planet is the exact same when it comes to priorities, attentiveness, awareness, or ability to pay attention.
I know that people who've closely studied this particular phenomenon haven't found a correlation with general absent-mindedness. The correlating factors are "stress, emotion, lack of sleep and change in routine".
  #167  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:57 PM
The King of Soup The King of Soup is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972
What? I agree that an event can be both rare and random.
No, you don't, and here's where your ability to judge yourself begins to collapse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
Several. SEVERAL! Several people have not noticed the corpse of their baby in the back seat. SEVERAL PEOPLE! As opposed to the millions upon millions of people who did NOT do that. But somehow, instead of there being something wrong with those SEVERAL people, millions upon millions of other people must be capable of doing the same thing those SEVERAL stupid people did??
There's you, claiming rarity is evidence of negligence, i.e., not random. But you said you could grasp that concept! It's almost as if your brain doesn't always behave the way you think it does.

Relax. It is very unlikely that your hypothetical children will be harmed by being left in a car...because it is very unlikely that any child, even the child of the worst parents you can imagine, even worse than you, will be harmed in that way. If you don't manage to kill your kids that way, in other words, it ain't because you are in any way special.

You are, however, arrogantly self-regarding to the extent that no reasonable person would believe your mind is on your hypothetical child even a small fraction of the time.
  #168  
Old 04-17-2017, 09:35 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by The King of Soup View Post
No, you don't, and here's where your ability to judge yourself begins to collapse.

There's you, claiming rarity is evidence of negligence, i.e., not random. But you said you could grasp that concept! It's almost as if your brain doesn't always behave the way you think it does.
Perhaps you don't know how to read? I said I agree that AN event can be rare and random. I didn't say that the event you quoted was one of them.

Quote:
Relax.
I am relaxed. Knowing that I didn't leave my infant child in a car to die. Perhaps you should relax? Maybe you left your kid in your car and are now trying to say that ANYONE can do it, instead of taking responsibility for the fact that you are stupid?
  #169  
Old 04-19-2017, 01:24 PM
Maurie Maurie is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
When I wake up in the morning, I don't think "Hmmm...wonder where my wallet is?" or "Hey, I'll make a mental note to go to the grocery store" But I damn sure think to myself "Where is my child, and is he safe?"

And if I'm in the car with them, I constantly think "Hmmm....check my rear-view mirror. check my side mirrors. Check my child. Check my speed. Check my child"

And If I'm in the store its "Get the cereal. check my child. Grab some eggs. Check my child"

And If I'm on the phone with my boss yelling at me its "Man, this is brutal. check my child. "ok, i'll be right in" Check my child"
I think you’re misunderstanding how the blip works.

It isn’t "Hmmm....check my rear-view mirror. Check my child. Check my side mirrors. *blip* Completely forget about baby’s existence. Check my speed. Go into work leaving my forgotten-about child to die."

It’s "Hmmm....check my rear-view mirror. Check my child. Check my side mirrors. *blip* Think about child who is safe at daycare. Check my speed. Go into work while child is safe at daycare."

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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
When your baby is in daycare, NOBODY thinks "Hmmm, wonder what junior is doing right now? Hope he is not crying too much."?? You just put your baby out of your mind for 8 hours? Not a single thought?
That’s the part you aren’t getting. Nobody is saying that the parents didn’t think about their child for 8 hours. The baby isn’t forgotten, that isn’t the point at all. What has happened is, the parent believes the child is at daycare and goes about thinking of them just as they, and you, would while they actually are at daycare. Do you go check your car every 20 minutes while at work to make sure the baby is really at daycare? That confidence you have when your baby is elsewhere is the same confidence these parents had that their baby was elsewhere.
  #170  
Old 04-19-2017, 03:23 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Maurie View Post
IThat confidence you have when your baby is elsewhere is the same confidence these parents had that their baby was elsewhere.
Yes, and those parents were stupid. So what? Trying to shift blame by saying "could happen to anyone" instead of just saying those particular parents were stupid is appalling to me.
  #171  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:46 AM
Maurie Maurie is offline
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Oh. I see.
  #172  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:36 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post

What I don't agree with is parents, who were so inattentive/stupid to leave their infant child in a car, somehow have credibility when they say "Well, it could happen to anyone!" No, it cannot. It happens to stupid people who do stupid things in the course of paying more attention to things besides their infant children.
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Do you honestly doubt that there are people in the world who are more absent-minded then the rest of the people? You don't think there are people who are more forgetful than others? I guess everyone on the planet is the exact same when it comes to priorities, attentiveness, awareness, or ability to pay attention.
Some people just have a tolerance for sloppiness. Other people do not.

Sully couldn't leave a kid in a car. Chuck Yeager couldn't leave a kid in a car.

My oldest and best friend of nearly 50 years could not leave a kid in a car. Some people are just different. This guy (a former airline pilot) is so mentally disciplined and focused in this thought process, that, if he had kids, I can say with 100% surety he could not ever leave them in a car. Call it anal, obsessive, crazy or whatever, but it is a mental discipline that few people have.

Further, he wouldn't allow himself to get into a situation that would cause other, less disciplined or careless folks to let a kid die in a car.

So, I reject the notion "that it could happen to anybody".
  #173  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:41 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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But I also got to say, this guy is NO FUN to go boating with!
  #174  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:27 PM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Some people just have a tolerance for sloppiness. Other people do not.

Sully couldn't leave a kid in a car. Chuck Yeager couldn't leave a kid in a car.

My oldest and best friend of nearly 50 years could not leave a kid in a car. Some people are just different. This guy (a former airline pilot) is so mentally disciplined and focused in this thought process, that, if he had kids, I can say with 100% surety he could not ever leave them in a car. Call it anal, obsessive, crazy or whatever, but it is a mental discipline that few people have.

Further, he wouldn't allow himself to get into a situation that would cause other, less disciplined or careless folks to let a kid die in a car.

So, I reject the notion "that it could happen to anybody".
"On the day Balfour forgot Bryce in the car, she had been up much of the night, first babysitting for a friend who had to take her dog to an emergency vet clinic, then caring for Bryce, who was cranky with a cold. Because the baby was also tired, he uncharacteristically dozed in the car, so he made no noise. Because Balfour was planning to bring Bryce’s usual car seat to the fire station to be professionally installed, Bryce was positioned in a different car seat that day, not behind the passenger but behind the driver, and was thus not visible in the rear-view mirror. Because the family’s second car was on loan to a relative, Balfour drove her husband to work that day, meaning the diaper bag was in the back, not on the passenger seat, as usual, where she could see it. Because of a phone conversation with a young relative in trouble, and another with her boss about a crisis at work, Balfour spent most of the trip on her cell, stressed, solving other people’s problems. Because the babysitter had a new phone, it didn’t yet contain Balfour’s office phone number, only her cell number, meaning that when the sitter phoned to wonder why Balfour hadn’t dropped Bryce off that morning, it rang unheard in Balfour’s pocketbook.

The holes, all of them, aligned."
  #175  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:33 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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The excuses, all of them, aligned.
  #176  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:06 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
Because of a phone conversation with a young relative in trouble, and another with her boss about a crisis at work, Balfour spent most of the trip on her cell
I particularly like this part of that tragic narrative. She just HAD to be on her cell phone while driving around with her infant child in the car. Could happen to anyone!

They should pass some laws against driving while on a cell phone. Maybe this tragedy could be prevented. Or, we could just say it's not her fault because it could happen to ANYBODY!
  #177  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:22 AM
Human Action Human Action is offline
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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Some people just have a tolerance for sloppiness. Other people do not.

Sully couldn't leave a kid in a car. Chuck Yeager couldn't leave a kid in a car.

My oldest and best friend of nearly 50 years could not leave a kid in a car. Some people are just different. This guy (a former airline pilot) is so mentally disciplined and focused in this thought process, that, if he had kids, I can say with 100% surety he could not ever leave them in a car. Call it anal, obsessive, crazy or whatever, but it is a mental discipline that few people have.

Further, he wouldn't allow himself to get into a situation that would cause other, less disciplined or careless folks to let a kid die in a car.

So, I reject the notion "that it could happen to anybody".
This is a joke, right?
  #178  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:52 PM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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So, I reject the notion "that it could happen to anybody".
"It happens to the chronically absent-minded and to the fanatically organized, to the college-educated and to the marginally literate. "
  #179  
Old 05-02-2017, 03:10 PM
constanze constanze is offline
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Just for example: an Air Marshal - not who you'd expect to be unorganized - forgot a gun in an airplane bathroom.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/21/po...lane-bathroom/

About 10 years ago (or more) a spy from MI5 forgot a very important laptop with secret spy stuff on it in the subway. Not who you expect to be badly organized.

Because moralizing doesn't change biological facts, that the human brain can only hold 8 items at the same time, and new facts push out other items regardless of their emotional importance. It' like trying to pour 1 gallon of water into a 1 pint container: it will spill, and you can't influence which part spills by colouring it "important".
  #180  
Old 05-02-2017, 03:19 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Just for example: an Air Marshal - not who you'd expect to be unorganized - forgot a gun in an airplane bathroom.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/21/po...lane-bathroom/

About 10 years ago (or more) a spy from MI5 forgot a very important laptop with secret spy stuff on it in the subway. Not who you expect to be badly organized.

Because moralizing doesn't change biological facts, that the human brain can only hold 8 items at the same time, and new facts push out other items regardless of their emotional importance. It' like trying to pour 1 gallon of water into a 1 pint container: it will spill, and you can't influence which part spills by colouring it "important".
Yes, because a gun or a laptop is as important as a human infant
  #181  
Old 05-02-2017, 04:07 PM
constanze constanze is offline
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Yes, because a gun or a laptop is as important as a human infant
To a spy without a baby, a laptop is at least as important, probably more, because the information on the laptop can affect thousands of people, can in the wrong hands start a war that kills ten thousands of people.

Also: the air marshal might have been sleep-deprived - like many parents.
  #182  
Old 05-04-2017, 10:09 AM
Human Action Human Action is offline
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Yes, because a gun or a laptop is as important as a human infant
"Memory is a machine,” [David Diamond] says, “and it is not flawless. Our conscious mind prioritizes things by importance, but on a cellular level, our memory does not. If you’re capable of forgetting your cellphone, you are potentially capable of forgetting your child.”

I'm sorry that the human brain doesn't work the way you want it to, but them's the breaks.
  #183  
Old 05-04-2017, 12:36 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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"Memory is a machine,” [David Diamond] says, “and it is not flawless. Our conscious mind prioritizes things by importance, but on a cellular level, our memory does not. If you’re capable of forgetting your cellphone, you are potentially capable of forgetting your child.”

I'm sorry that the human brain doesn't work the way you want it to, but them's the breaks.
I'm sorry YOUR brain doesn't work like others do, but them's the breaks. Mine functions fine.
  #184  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:02 PM
constanze constanze is offline
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I'm sorry YOUR brain doesn't work like others do, but them's the breaks. Mine functions fine.
If you do have children, then I see a high possibility that you will severely damage them. Not in a physical way, if they are older than babies, but:

you refuse to accept biological facts about the human body, as found by scientists, which means you will likely not accept other facts about the human body

you assign moral issues to biological functions

you have no empathy at all or patience with people who make mistakes or errors

you refuse to accept the biological and historical proven fact that humans - all humans - are not 100% perfect all the time, but rather make errors both intentionally and unintentionally (because of biological factors)

and you are blind to the fact that you make errors.

So what happens when your child(ren) make errors? When they have uncomfortable biological functions (e.g. boys having nightly emissions during puberty, or getting a stiffie when looking at Grandma?) What happens when one of your children points out that you made a mistake, or told something that he heard an opposite fact elsewhere?

The demand to be always perfect; the inability to accept facts; the inability to reflect on oneself (therefore, instead of recognizing errors and fixing them, continually making mistakes over and over again) in an adult responsible for children is damaging to their psyche and creates likely terrible adults.

Last edited by constanze; 05-04-2017 at 05:03 PM.
  #185  
Old 05-04-2017, 06:44 PM
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I'm sorry YOUR brain doesn't work like others do, but them's the breaks. Mine functions fine.
I would have to disagree. Considering the idiocy you've displayed in this thread, and the intransigent clinging to a delusional interpretation of the article over in the climate change thread, as well as equally delusional interpretations of examples that other posters have patiently provided over there to try to explain things to you, I take major issue with your self-evaluation as having a well functioning brain. What I think we have is a classic display of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
  #186  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:34 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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you refuse to accept biological facts about the human body, as found by scientists, which means you will likely not accept other facts about the human body
Do I? Please point out a study that says memory functions exactly the same for every single human being on the planet. A reporter's opinion doesn't count.

Quote:
you assign moral issues to biological functions
Do I? I'm not aware of doing that. Please point it out.

Quote:
you have no empathy at all or patience with people who make mistakes or errors
I have no empathy that's true. I have no patience with people who make mistakes and try to blame other factors.

Quote:
you refuse to accept the biological and historical proven fact that humans - all humans - are not 100% perfect all the time, but rather make errors both intentionally and unintentionally (because of biological factors)
I accept the fact that humans make mistakes, sometimes even unintentionally. I just don't accept that forgetting your keys is the same as forgetting your infant child. Sorry, I just place more importance on my children then I do on my keys. And I alter my behavior based on that importance.

Quote:
and you are blind to the fact that you make errors
No I'm not. But I own up to them and don't blame others for errors I make.

Quote:
So what happens when your child(ren) make errors? When they have uncomfortable biological functions (e.g. boys having nightly emissions during puberty, or getting a stiffie when looking at Grandma?) What happens when one of your children points out that you made a mistake, or told something that he heard an opposite fact elsewhere
Really? If my children said "Hey I read that something is different than what you said" I would ask them where they read it and if a legitimate source, change my knowledge of that subject. I don't lie to my children, and give them the best information I have. If I am mistaken, then I tell them that. Don't you?

Quote:
The demand to be always perfect; the inability to accept facts; the inability to reflect on oneself (therefore, instead of recognizing errors and fixing them, continually making mistakes over and over again) in an adult responsible for children is damaging to their psyche and creates likely terrible adults.
The only "fact" in this thread that I refuse to accept is that because some people are idiotic enough to leave their kids in their car, that means we all are susceptible to leaving our kids in the car. And I disagree, despite that a reporter says "it could happen to anybody"
  #187  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:36 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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I would have to disagree. Considering the idiocy you've displayed in this thread
It just kills me that knowing I wouldn't leave my children in a hot car to die is "idiocy"

The fact that you think anyone could do that is moronic in my view.

Wow, insulting people is fun!
  #188  
Old 05-04-2017, 09:04 PM
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No, the idiocy is in the vast and pompous assumptions you make about people and circumstances that you know nothing about. I can just picture you as an accident investigator for the NTSB: "Obviously the guy was an idiot. Everyone should be smart like me. Next!"

Rulings would certainly be quick. And, most of the time, fact-free, wrong and useless.
  #189  
Old 05-04-2017, 09:09 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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No, the idiocy is in the vast and pompous assumptions you make about people and circumstances that you know nothing about. I can just picture you as an accident investigator for the NTSB: "Obviously the guy was an idiot. Everyone should be smart like me. Next!"

Rulings would certainly be quick. And, most of the time, fact-free, wrong and useless.
Yes, "it could happen to anyone" is a standard we should use for all accidents.

"That guy fell asleep and plowed into a busload of nuns and orphans. But, you know, falling asleep at the wheel could happen to anyone. He was tired from working all day, so he's not responsible"

"That guy didn't look for cars in his blind spot and he swerved into a carload of puppies going to the vet. He was tired from talking on the phone all night because his company might fold. It could happen to anyone!"

  #190  
Old 05-06-2017, 10:26 AM
SciFiSam SciFiSam is offline
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"There but for the grace of God"--no, I don't think so.

Yes, I have made some parenting mistakes, even including almost roasting a kid in a hot car, not because I left him there--I was in the car too--but because I didn't realize what effect it was having on him. I realize that most people would not do this.

But leaving a tiny child in the car and forgetting they were ever there? No.

I do think these people are fundamentally different from me.

Some of you have likened this to misplacing your glasses. I have to conclude that you don't really, REALLY need those glasses. I have to say, during 60-some years of wearing glasses I have never once misplaced them, because they are always within my reach, because without them I can't see. So they're important to me. This is not to say I haven't dropped a contact lens down the sink, but that's different (and also rare). I don't actually understand that one either, how do you misplace your glasses?

However strongly my specs were important to me is NOTHING compared to the way I felt about my children. This is pretty much why I can't visualize myself ever leaving them in the car. A screw-up as to who's gonna pick up which kid at which place, okay, I'll cop to that. But--forgetting the kid is in the car with me? And just going off and leaving him there? Unthinkable.

Now I read the article, and I guess I admit that some busy and absent-minded parent might do this, innocently, and for those (thankfully extremely rare) times, I do feel for the parent. Except for the guy whose car alarm went off multiple times while his dying infant tried its best to make its presence known and he fucking ignored it. I don't know how that guy lives with himself. I actually can't imagine any of my children, especially when they were babies, being that far out of my mind.

I do think the punishment they give themselves for this callous disregard is enough and they shouldn't go to jail. Even that one guy.
It's possible these people genuinely are fundamentally different to you - that you're far more vigilant than average. That makes you the outlier, not them. Some people really are hyper-vigilant and hyper-organised and good for you that you're one of them. Most people aren't.

Like someone else said, you have an alarm system for your glasses in that you can't see without them. But can you go to work without your children if you don't usually take them to work? Don't you do that every day?

And when it comes to importance, I absolutely need my asthma inhaler everywhere I go and it's an extremely rare occasion that I don't remember to take it with me. The few occasions when I have not taken my inhaler with me were when my routine changed, usually due to changing clothes and bags when the seasons change and not realising that the bag I'm using does not have the usual inhaler in it. It's a rare occasion for me to be out for more than a very short trip and not need to use my inhaler, and asthma attacks are unpredictable - usually I get some warning and there's a gradual escalation, but occasionally it's gone straight to the stage where I can't speak at all, see everything through a haze of blue and can't lift the inhaler myself, then need to puff half of it into me before I can start to recover (bear in mind that the usual emergency asthma inhalers use the same drug they use at hospitals, just in lower doses - it's a more powerful drug than its commonplace use would lead you to believe).

Without an inhaler available then I would die. Even emergency services might not get there in time. I know people who've died of asthma attacks. And I know all this and I don't want to die. But still I have forgotten my inhaler a handful of times over my 41 years, usually because I was using a different handbag. It's pure luck that I haven't had one of those sudden bad attacks coincide with one of the rare occasions I don't have an inhaler to hand.

Your kids are usually more important to you than your own life, but still, if you can forget something that's important to you actually being able to breathe then you can forget your child too. Perhaps you would never ever forget that either, but you'd be unusual in that respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Yes, "it could happen to anyone" is a standard we should use for all accidents.

"That guy fell asleep and plowed into a busload of nuns and orphans. But, you know, falling asleep at the wheel could happen to anyone. He was tired from working all day, so he's not responsible"

"That guy didn't look for cars in his blind spot and he swerved into a carload of puppies going to the vet. He was tired from talking on the phone all night because his company might fold. It could happen to anyone!"

Well, both of those - the falling asleep at the wheel and the not looking for blind spots due to tiredness - do happen to lots of people. That's why there are laws against driving while over-tired and laws against making employees work hours where this is likely to happen, like truck drivers needing rest stops. It's recognised that tiredness can cause accidents. Unfortunately when there's little parental leave and the parents still need to go to work to pay for their child's upkeep they sometimes have to function on less sleep than they should. Truck drivers get mandatory rest breaks but parents of babies don't. It's not an excuse, but it is a mitigating circumstance especially when the parent has already suffered by the loss of their child.
  #191  
Old 05-08-2017, 09:50 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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It's not an excuse, but it is a mitigating circumstance especially when the parent has already suffered by the loss of their child.
A mitigating circumstance I would agree. Deflecting blame to "It could happen to anyone" is not something I agree with.
  #192  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:30 AM
Human Action Human Action is offline
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I'm sorry YOUR brain doesn't work like others do, but them's the breaks. Mine functions fine.
Of course, you have a superbrain that, on a cellular level, categorizes things by importance to you. Why not? manson1972 1, neurology 0.

Lots of people believe lots of stupid things, you're just one more on the pile.
  #193  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:34 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Of course, you have a superbrain that, on a cellular level, categorizes things by importance to you
Can I use this quote as my signature block?
  #194  
Old 05-09-2017, 02:23 PM
Hilarity N. Suze Hilarity N. Suze is offline
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Of course, you have a superbrain that, on a cellular level, categorizes things by importance to you. Why not? manson1972 1, neurology 0.

Lots of people believe lots of stupid things, you're just one more on the pile.
You seem to be saying that unless you have some kind of "superbrain" you might, for instance, sit down at the bridge table and after a few tricks forget you're playing bridge and think you're playing poker? Because that seems like the same kind of thing we're talking about here.

Last edited by Hilarity N. Suze; 05-09-2017 at 02:24 PM.
  #195  
Old 05-09-2017, 02:36 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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You seem to be saying that unless you have some kind of "superbrain" you might, for instance, sit down at the bridge table and after a few tricks forget you're playing bridge and think you're playing poker? Because that seems like the same kind of thing we're talking about here.
I believe the answer you will get here is along the lines of "You get constant feedback that you are playing bridge, therefore you wouldn't forget and start playing poker. When a sleeping baby is in your backseat, there is no constant feedback, so you, or anybody really, could forget you have the baby in the backseat and leave it in there to die."

Of course this misses the point of "I know that I have an infant child. That knowledge is constant feedback alerting me that I should know where my infant child is. Like non-stupid people would do"
  #196  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:26 PM
Human Action Human Action is offline
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Can I use this quote as my signature block?
Go nuts. Some people believe crystals cure cancer, or in physic surgery. You have your own nutty beliefs. No shame in it, either make peace with it or try to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilarity N. Suze View Post
You seem to be saying that unless you have some kind of "superbrain" you might, for instance, sit down at the bridge table and after a few tricks forget you're playing bridge and think you're playing poker? Because that seems like the same kind of thing we're talking about here.
Here's a crazy thought: if you're wondering how the brain remembers things, instead of coming up with daffy analogies, ask an expert, someone who studies how the brain remembers things.
Memory is a machine,” [Diamond] says, “and it is not flawless. Our conscious mind prioritizes things by importance, but on a cellular level, our memory does not. If you’re capable of forgetting your cellphone, you are potentially capable of forgetting your child.”

...

The human brain, he says, is a magnificent but jury-rigged device in which newer and more sophisticated structures sit atop a junk heap of prototype brains still used by lower species. At the top of the device are the smartest and most nimble parts: the prefrontal cortex, which thinks and analyzes, and the hippocampus, which makes and holds on to our immediate memories. At the bottom is the basal ganglia, nearly identical to the brains of lizards, controlling voluntary but barely conscious actions.

Diamond says that in situations involving familiar, routine motor skills, the human animal presses the basal ganglia into service as a sort of auxiliary autopilot. When our prefrontal cortex and hippocampus are planning our day on the way to work, the ignorant but efficient basal ganglia is operating the car; that’s why you’ll sometimes find yourself having driven from point A to point B without a clear recollection of the route you took, the turns you made or the scenery you saw.

Ordinarily, says Diamond, this delegation of duty “works beautifully, like a symphony. But sometimes, it turns into the ‘1812 Overture.’ The cannons take over and overwhelm.”

By experimentally exposing rats to the presence of cats, and then recording electrochemical changes in the rodents’ brains, Diamond has found that stress -- either sudden or chronic -- can weaken the brain’s higher-functioning centers, making them more susceptible to bullying from the basal ganglia. He’s seen the same sort of thing play out in cases he’s followed involving infant deaths in cars.
Look, I get it. People like to believe that their mind is some separate thing (and have for a loooong, loooooong time), a part of their soul or whatever. They don't like the idea that their mind is the product of their brain, and their brain is just a bodily organ, that messily evolved over aeons, and has a vast array of flaws and quirks. That's how you get to the nonsensical beliefs of manson, who, when confronted with the knowledge that the basal ganglia can override the conscious mind, refuses to even consider that it might be true.

The truth sucks sometimes, and the truth is that your brain is a glitchy biological computer.

Making up a fairy tale wherein your mind isn't subject to the basal ganglia's influence, or your brain cells remember your child differently than your keys, or whatever nonsense manson apparently believes, is comforting, like all folk myths. It's also horseshit.

That's all I have to say on the matter. Read The Ghost in the Machine if you want a basic introduction to this topic, and are willing to be a grownup and face uncomfortable truths.

Last edited by Human Action; 05-09-2017 at 03:27 PM.
  #197  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:40 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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It couldn't happen to "anyone".

Not everybody has kids. Not everybody has cars. Ha ha! Case closed! I win!
  #198  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:49 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
It couldn't happen to "anyone".

Not everybody has kids. Not everybody has cars. Ha ha! Case closed! I win!
You've clearly forgotten that you have kids, AND a car, AND that you drove to work today with kids in the car and you've left them there to walk home (because you forgot you had a car at work) to post your winning ways on this message board!

Take that, basal ganglia!
  #199  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:51 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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That's all I have to say on the matter
Thank God. I'm tired of parsing through your nonsensical, blame everyone but the parents, idiotic attitude.
  #200  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:54 PM
constanze constanze is offline
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I have no empathy that's true.
And that's why you should stay away from children and all other living things (and never be allowed to make rules for anything).

We used to call people with lack of empathy sociopaths and psychopaths, because we thought that 1% of the population had some damaged wiring in the frontal cortex where in normal humans empathy is located.

But then it turned out that some people are born with this brain defect - they can not on an emotional level feel deep empathy with other humans - but recognize that this is wrong, and train themselves to feel empathy, and act like normal humans.
And people born with normal brains have meanwhile trained themselves out of empathy.

So now we call people who lack empathy and don't understand why that is wrong "Jerks"; and people who have neurological problems but try hard not to be jerks we call "people".

Quote:
I have no patience with people who make mistakes and try to blame other factors.
If you have no patience, you should not be near children or living things.

And patience is different from empathy (though both can be connected).
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