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  #301  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:08 PM
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Fairfax is saying that the Post's investigation is to be trusted. So the accuser must be mistaken, or lying, or confused. So apparently not all women can be believed when they make these kinds of accusations. Go figure.
The only puzzling thing here is that you apparently thought anyone would disagree with the statement. This may be an occasion of your misunderstanding the arguments you disagree with.

Go figure.
  #302  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:15 PM
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Having spending a couple of milliseconds figuring, I have figured out that there's at least some possibility that his enemies are using the reprehensible strategy of appropriating and subverting the valid message of the #MeToo movement.
Nah, couldn't possibly.

I know that all the right-leaning folks who are ready to give credence to this accusation against Justin Fairfax are absolutely outraged that Mr. Grab-Em-By-The-Pussy hasn't been forced to resign.
  #303  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:19 PM
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I dunno. Considering they pitched, greenlit, and distributed a mainstream hollywood movie who's entire premise was about a guy doing blackface to get into college, two years after this yearbook photo came out,...
I snipped the rest and do not want to hijack this discussion but what movie was this? My brain vaguely recalls the plot as you described it but I'll be darned if I can place the movie's name.
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  #304  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:21 PM
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He's just can't be rehabilitated as governor. Because that job is not all about him, it's about what the people of Virginia need from the person who represents their interests in a position of great power.
People voted for him based on who he is and what he said in speeches, debates, interviews, and ads. Why is he any less qualified now than he was at election time? All of us did dumbass cringeworthy stuff in our youth, maybe not blackface bad, but still. That was 35 years ago.
  #305  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:23 PM
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If we forgive former drug addicts and convicted felons, why not an elected official?
Because no one has the right to serve as an elected official.
  #306  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:26 PM
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FWIW, here's what the WaPo has to say about the story:
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The woman and Fairfax first met in Boston at the 2004 Democratic national convention.

During a conversation, the two realized they had a mutual friend. It was that commonality, she recalled, that put her at ease enough that on the afternoon Fairfax asked her to walk with him to his hotel room to pick up some papers, she thought nothing of joining him.

Fairfax and the woman told different versions of what happened in the hotel room with no one else present. The Washington Post could not find anyone who could corroborate either version. The Post did not find “significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegations,” as the Fairfax statement incorrectly said.

Fairfax (D), who was not married at the time, has denied her account through his attorneys and described the encounter as consensual.

The woman described a sexual encounter that began with consensual kissing and ended with a forced act that left her crying and shaken. She said Fairfax guided her to the bed, where they continued kissing, and then at one point she realized she could not move her neck. She said Fairfax used his strength to force her to perform oral sex.

The Washington Post, in phone calls to people who knew Fairfax from college, law school and through political circles, found no similar complaints of sexual misconduct against him. Without that, or the ability to corroborate the woman’s account — in part because she had not told anyone what happened — The Washington Post did not run a story.
I would be uncomfortable with giving someone the boot on the basis of an anonymous, unsupported accusation.

But I'll make this prediction: if the woman does come forward, she may get some flak. But it'll be just a tiny fraction of what Christine Blasey Ford has endured. Because while there are assholes on both sides of the political spectrum, the left, by and large, doesn't believe in ruining the lives of people just for being inconveniently on the wrong side.
  #307  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:27 PM
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People voted for him based on who he is and what he said in speeches, debates, interviews, and ads. Why is he any less qualified now than he was at election time? All of us did dumbass cringeworthy stuff in our youth, maybe not blackface bad, but still. That was 35 years ago.
There are some lines that decent people don't cross. Ever.
  #308  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:28 PM
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I snipped the rest and do not want to hijack this discussion but what movie was this? My brain vaguely recalls the plot as you described it but I'll be darned if I can place the movie's name.
Soul Man.
  #309  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:29 PM
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People voted for him based on who he is and what he said in speeches, debates, interviews, and ads. Why is he any less qualified now than he was at election time? All of us did dumbass cringeworthy stuff in our youth, maybe not blackface bad, but still. That was 35 years ago.
[my bold]

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, they didn't know about this when they voted for him.

Last edited by Riemann; 02-04-2019 at 01:32 PM.
  #310  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:29 PM
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I never saw it, but I think the movie being referred to was Soul Man.
  #311  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:58 PM
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There isn't much condoning going on right now, is there?
There wasn't in Denver about Hancock at the start. It was a lot of "OMG the City Council needs to remove him". When the Council said that removing the Mayor required a recall vote it turned into "nevermind then" and now it's not even heard of as he's starting his re-election campaign.

Give it time and if Northam doesn't resign see if Virginians demand a recall election statute.
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  #312  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:45 PM
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Passing a recall statute that doesn't grandfather in the current officeholder sets a really bad precedent.
  #313  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:50 PM
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Give it time and if Northam doesn't resign see if Virginians demand a recall election statute.
There is a statute, I posted details here:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=132
  #314  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:57 PM
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FWIW, here's what the WaPo has to say about the story:
I would be uncomfortable with giving someone the boot on the basis of an anonymous, unsupported accusation.
Give the name to Dianne Feinstein and it won't be anonymous for long.
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The Post did not find “significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegations,” as the Fairfax statement incorrectly said.
So Fairfax lied? Hmm.
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Originally Posted by Shodan
Fairfax is saying that the Post's investigation is to be trusted. So the accuser must be mistaken, or lying, or confused. So apparently not all women can be believed when they make these kinds of accusations. Go figure.
The only puzzling thing here is that you apparently thought anyone would disagree with the statement.
So we shouldn't believe unsubstantiated accusations? Fair enough. Is that before, or after, the FBI investigations?

Regards,
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  #315  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:02 PM
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So we shouldn't believe unsubstantiated accusations? Fair enough. Is that before, or after, the FBI investigations?
What is your opinion on sexual assault allegations against powerful men? I think they should be fully investigated, regardless of political (or other) consequences.
  #316  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:02 PM
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So we shouldn't believe unsubstantiated accusations? Fair enough.
It's super cool how, even when someone points out that you can't paraphrase an opponent's argument, you respond by misparaphrasing what they said.

Edit: wait, I just realized it's even cooler than that. When someone AGREES with something you say, you misparaphrase YOURSELF in an effort to make them look dumb for agreeing with you. That's downright impressive.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 02-04-2019 at 03:04 PM.
  #317  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:04 PM
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Don't you get it? We have to have ironclad evidence before there's an investigation.
  #318  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:26 PM
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Don't you get it? We have to have ironclad evidence before there's an investigation.
You need to think of this as a job interview - the people of Virginia are deciding if the lieutenant governor should become the governor.

Unsubstantiated allegations where nobody else was present can be dismissed. Unsubstantiated allegations, where the accuser says there are multiple witnesses but none of the witnesses back her up - then you got something, and the FBI needs to investigate and the Dems should find somebody else who hasn't been accused and so forth.

Regards,
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  #319  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:39 PM
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Fairfax will get his chance 2021 when he can run for Governor of Virginia, after the current governor's term ends. Northham isn't stepping down.
  #320  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:51 PM
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You need to think of this as a job interview
Is that what you thought of the Kavanaugh hearings?
  #321  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:16 PM
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Some sort of "Kavanaugh Rules" for FBI investigations? Alrighty, then, the FBI:
  • Cannot interview anybody in the picture;
  • Cannot interview the photographer;
  • Can only talk to friends or acquaintances that back Northam's retcon;
  • Needs to wrap up and report by Wednesday close of business.

We should be able to conclude afterwards that Northam wasn't there, that there was no picture actually taken, and that Northam really likes beer.
  #322  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:34 PM
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There are some lines that decent people don't cross. Ever.
So nobody ever reflects on past behavior and commits to a permanent change in attitude and action. Redemption is a myth, and introspection nothing more than a charade put on by people who only seek to escape accountability. Am I misreading you, or is that more or less what you mean?
  #323  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:39 PM
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I just read an oddly disturbing article which suggests that from Northham’s own perspective, his best choice is to stick to his guns and not resign. Using game theory. Basically it comes down this: If he resigns his career is ruined for sure. If he doesn’t resign there’s a 50% chance he might get out of it, based on the experience of other politicians who have got into scandals.
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  #324  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:46 PM
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I just read an oddly disturbing article which suggests that from Northham’s own perspective, his best choice is to stick to his guns and not resign.
Makes sense to me. From his own point of view, what does he have to gain by resigning?
  #325  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:47 PM
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The Fairfax/Kavanaugh stuff is out of line in this thread. Take it to a new one if you must. This one’s about Northam.
  #326  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:56 PM
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if he quits he can join Palin , McGreevey, and Spitzer and form the short term governors club

Last edited by Bijou Drains; 02-04-2019 at 04:58 PM.
  #327  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:00 PM
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The Fairfax/Kavanaugh stuff is out of line in this thread. Take it to a new one if you must. This one’s about Northam.
Kavanaugh, sure. But all aspects of talking about Fairfax? I mean, he's the guy who would replace Northam, and they are both under attack - it seems like he is very much part of the Northam debate.

Last edited by Riemann; 02-04-2019 at 05:03 PM.
  #328  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:01 PM
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So nobody ever reflects on past behavior and commits to a permanent change in attitude and action. Redemption is a myth, and introspection nothing more than a charade put on by people who only seek to escape accountability. Am I misreading you, or is that more or less what you mean?
I believe people can change. In this case, I’d need to be convinced he’s figured it out. The decision to dress that way and publish a photo is far over the line and I’m flabbergasted someone in the mid 1980s wouldn’t know that.
  #329  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:51 PM
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I believe people can change. In this case, I’d need to be convinced he’s figured it out. The decision to dress that way and publish a photo is far over the line and I’m flabbergasted someone in the mid 1980s wouldn’t know that.
1) he's had 30 years of work since the picture. What do you think of what you've seen? 2) over the line by today's standards, sure. From the little I've seen of Southern racism I can see a pre-internet world being largely ignorant of who is irritated by what. Look at film and pop music from the time and you'll note some very uncomfortable stereotypes advanced as Perfectly Normal. It is totally within the realm of possibility this photo was nothing more evil than, "You know what would be a shocking pair at a costume party?" A healthy helping of ignorance, perhaps, in not realizing the full impact of blackface and KKK costumes. But in a still-segregated pre-internet world I don't know how one race would be meant to know the full extent of what the other was offended by--blacks & whites sitting down over drinks and calmly discussing their preferences wasn't exactly a thing. Still isn't as far as I know.

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  #330  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:57 PM
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I doubt Gov. Northam grew up in a time and place where he needed to think a great deal about how his forays into blackface would hurt others.

It looks like his behavior somewhere in the past 35 years has changed as you might hope. He has a responsibility to do the job he was given by the people of Virginia and I hope he doesn't let them down because a bunch of Democrats wants the cheap high ground while they campaign for office.
  #331  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:09 PM
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1) he's had 30 years of work since the picture. What do you think of what you've seen? 2) over the line by today's standards, sure. From the little I've seen of Southern racism I can see a pre-internet world being largely ignorant of who is irritated by what. Look at film and pop music from the time and you'll note some very uncomfortable stereotypes advanced as Perfectly Normal. It is totally within the realm of possibility this photo was nothing more evil than, "You know what would be a shocking pair at a costume party?" A healthy helping of ignorance, perhaps, in not realizing the full impact of blackface and KKK costumes. But in a still-segregated pre-internet world I don't know how one race would be meant to know the full extent of what the other was offended by--blacks & whites sitting down over drinks and calmly discussing their preferences wasn't exactly a thing. Still isn't as far as I know.
He's about my age. I grew up in neighboring Maryland. There's just no way he could not "realize the full impact of blackface and KKK costumes." KKK outfits were not funny, even in 1984. In fact, I saw my first KKK rally in real life around 1982, it was sobering and disgusting. This is so far beyond "uncomfortable stereotypes."

Now, I'm willing to accept he did something really offensive a long time ago and learned from it. We called that consciousness raising in the 80s. But, that would require an acknowledgement that he realized now that this was a terrible idea even then, and that he can see what all the fuss is about.
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Old 02-04-2019, 06:14 PM
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It is totally within the realm of possibility this photo was nothing more evil than, "You know what would be a shocking pair at a costume party?" A healthy helping of ignorance, perhaps, in not realizing the full impact of blackface and KKK costumes.
I figured the gag was, he loved beer. So, his yearbook quote: having another beer; that, and this segue from old doctors to old drunks. How terrific is beer? So great that even these two guys here would cheerfully drink to that! Heh, what an odd couple that’d be! But even they’d put aside their differences to agree on beer!

And that’s . . . maybe where the thought process ended. Like, literally no next thought; just that, and nothing else besides.
  #333  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:22 PM
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I think I've got this all figured out. It's not that lots of politicians have done stupid things in the past. It's that lots of people who do stupid things tend to become politicians.
  #334  
Old 02-04-2019, 07:36 PM
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...I hope he doesn't let them down because a bunch of Democrats wants the cheap high ground while they campaign for office.
I'd argue that particular slice of high ground is not at all cheap.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:08 PM
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Sure, redemption is possible. But the first step in redemption is always, always, admitting that you've done wrong, apologizing for it, and showing contrition. And while it's not strictly necessary, contrition usually involves some measure of self-sacrifice.

After he resigns, then we can start talking about redemption.
  #336  
Old 02-04-2019, 10:32 PM
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"True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you.

Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone."

Redemption.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:45 PM
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I'd argue that particular slice of high ground is not at all cheap.
Care to elaborate? I view it as cheap because it doesn't take much to say "Resign!", to join the mob, while never mentioning anything about one's own transgressions. Do you really believe all these American politicians never said or did a single thing against a minority group in all their lives? In other words, how many of them never took advantage of the various privileges their birth gave them over some other group their whole lives? It's all just more dishonesty and nothing good will come of it.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:53 PM
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Care to elaborate? I view it as cheap because it doesn't take much to say "Resign!", to join the mob...
Well, if you view "joining the mob" instead as an indication of consistent Dem policy, then the high ground isn't cheap if it means Dems are consistently held to a higher standard.
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:24 AM
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I would consider it a relatively expensive stance that loses the party Al Franken and puts Virginia back into play. Worth it, but hardly cheap.
  #340  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:05 AM
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Northam’s medical school banned yearbooks in 2013 — after students posed in Confederate garb
https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...295_story.html

So the school had a long tradition in this area.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:26 AM
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Pushing out Northam when the next two in line for his seat are Democrats isn't really much of a test of one's moral high ground.
  #342  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:39 AM
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Pushing out Northam when the next two in line for his seat are Democrats isn't really much of a test of one's moral high ground.
And yet, in the last few years, the Democrats keep passing these moral "tests", while the Republicans keep failing.

It used to be that both parties were equally eager to sweep accusations of racism or misogyny out of sight. But now, the parties have changed -- the Democrats actually hold their own accountable, while the Republicans harden support and even celebrate their own when they are accused of racist or misogynystic actions or words.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:10 AM
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I see Democrats, having been accused, attempt to own up to their behavior. Then they are pushed out of office. They are replaced by a Democrat.

I see elections overturned without any process followed other than what a mob of Democratic partisans asks for.

I doubt there's any real analysis that can connect this "morality" to Democratic victories or better legislation.

This morality won't do anything to address the actual problems of growing up in America and not learning how to respectfully treat others.

I guess I am not a Democrat, I've never been very excited by religious hypocrites. Maybe this means I'll stop getting called all the fucking time asking for donations.
  #344  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:18 AM
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Well, if you view "joining the mob" instead as an indication of consistent Dem policy, then the high ground isn't cheap if it means Dems are consistently held to a higher standard.
True enough, it would be a glorious thing if the wisdom was, "Them Democrats may have their heads in the clouds sometimes, but at least they're honest, good people." But knowing people, I think the best that will ever be said is, "Wow, they never get caught anymore!" Because all punishment really deters is getting caught, and only those with the cunning and intense disregard for history will take the necessary measures to clean up their past before jumping into the limelight. Whitewashed. Better, says I, to say, "Yeah, I done that. Seemed like a good idea at the time but then I got some life and grew up. That ain't me now--take a look." Which, to be fair, Northam almost did, and then backtracked. The guy IS verbally clumsy--that's definitely problematic for a governor.
  #345  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:27 AM
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This morality won't do anything to address the actual problems of growing up in America and not learning how to respectfully treat others.
One part of the way to change this in the country is to show that there actually are real and significant consequences for this sort of bad behavior, whether it's related to racism, misogyny, or something else.
  #346  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:34 AM
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I see Democrats, having been accused, attempt to own up to their behavior. Then they are pushed out of office. They are replaced by a Democrat.

I see elections overturned without any process followed other than what a mob of Democratic partisans asks for.
So what you're saying, then, is that Democrats are acting quite unfairly towards Democrats. Not sure why you're concerned about that.

And if your concern is for the voters that the Dems might be pre-empting, well, we got polls.

In January, Northam's fav-unfav among Virginia voters was 48-26; now it's 29-48. From +22 to -19 - that's one hell of a swing. So it seems like the voters are ready to see him gone.
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Old 02-05-2019, 09:53 AM
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The consequence Northam would face is he won't be elected to any position after his governorship and his political career has ended as of 2021. He's not going to become senator like Kaine. He'll fade into nothingness and be denied the opportunity to do what he identifies with, which is to serve the electorate.

His resignation isn't going to teach young men and women to think respectfully of African-Americans, Caucasians, Asians, or homosexuals or people with various handicaps. A 25-year-old grown up sheltered from this sort of disrespect isn't worried about losing their job 35 years later, they're worried if their buddies think they're funny.

Poll results aren't more important than the rule of law and respecting the outcomes of fair elections. It's not just about one group turning one of its own.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Inbred Mm domesticus View Post
The consequence Northam would face is he won't be elected to any position after his governorship and his political career has ended as of 2021. He's not going to become senator like Kaine. He'll fade into nothingness and be denied the opportunity to do what he identifies with, which is to serve the electorate.
Again, the overriding imperative here is not that we must bend of backwards to be "fair" to Northam. It is to be fair to the people of Virginia, and what they need and expect - beyond any reasonable doubt - from a governor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbred Mm domesticus View Post
His resignation isn't going to teach young men and women to think respectfully of African-Americans, Caucasians, Asians, or homosexuals or people with various handicaps.
Asserted without any evidence whatsoever, and contrary to common sense. The obvious message here is that making a fancy dress "joke" out of our horrific past is (at best) grossly offensive and disrespectful and carries serious consequences.

Last edited by Riemann; 02-05-2019 at 10:09 AM.
  #349  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:16 AM
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Location: Santa Fe, NM, USA
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Originally Posted by Inbred Mm domesticus View Post
Poll results aren't more important than the rule of law and respecting the outcomes of fair elections.
This might apply if people were advocating assassination, but otherwise it's utter nonsense. Who has claimed that recent discoveries invalidate the result of the election? Are people who express an opinion that he is unfit for office violating any law?
  #350  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Inbred Mm domesticus View Post
His resignation isn't going to teach young men and women to think respectfully of African-Americans, Caucasians, Asians, or homosexuals or people with various handicaps. A 25-year-old grown up sheltered from this sort of disrespect isn't worried about losing their job 35 years later, they're worried if their buddies think they're funny.
Giving him a pass absolutely sends a message to young men and women that they have no need of thinking respectfully of African-Americans, Caucasians, Asians, or homosexuals or people with various handicaps.

Sure, dress up with blackface and a Klan robe, put it in your yearbook, not a problem, you can still be governor.
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