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  #151  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:11 AM
Inner Stickler Inner Stickler is online now
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
It reminds me of the bike riding thread where the rider fell off, and got some hot, about a big wad of gum, some kid spit into the roadway, and it stuck to his tire and threw him from his bike. Had to go to emerg for his scrapes and get prescription drugs! Anyone else remember that one? It was very amusing too!
How could anyone forget about Stan Shmenge and the Wad of Chewing Gum?
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  #152  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:55 AM
bucketybuck bucketybuck is offline
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I am curious about a question asked earlier.

To the OP, were you wearing a helmet?
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  #153  
Old 07-03-2012, 06:48 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is online now
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And were you drinking at the Pink Pony?
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  #154  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:08 AM
MoonMoon MoonMoon is offline
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Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
Oh I'm sure you and lots of others do too I'm well aware of that. I'm just trying to put an end to it. I'm done defending myself and my opinions to everyone. Fine I'm wrong...whatever...I got my bike and got what I and I alone think I should have gotten in the first place. The ordeal is done, and I got to learn that it's, for the most part, illegal to ride on the sidwalk...so neat.



I do have my license and have been driving for almost ten years now. Aside from the fact that I would have looked in the first place I would have immediately offered to get a new bike right then and there because that's the decent and right thing to do. Apparently I'm wrong in that sentiment but that's what I would have done.
Not "for the most part," unless you're a child. For me, the biggest issue here is that you were riding against traffic. Drivers look left and glance right to make a right turn. That's fine, when they're dealing with pedestrians, because pedestrians are slow. Bikes are faster than pedestrians. No one expects a bike to come sailing up a sidewalk (or across a crosswalk) especially against the flow of traffic. That's how accidents happen, as you're well aware now.

Ride WITH traffic, run/jog AGAINST traffic. I see people getting this backward every single day.
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  #155  
Old 07-03-2012, 09:01 AM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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Originally Posted by bucketybuck View Post
I am curious about a question asked earlier.

To the OP, were you wearing a helmet?
Sorry must have missed the question, and I always wear a helmet.

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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
And were you drinking at the Pink Pony?
Good question! Nope I wasn't...not much of a drinker.

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Originally Posted by MoonMoon View Post
Not "for the most part," unless you're a child.
By "for the most part" I meant the legality of it in the states. It seems to be illegal in most states, but not in all.
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  #156  
Old 07-03-2012, 09:15 AM
elbows elbows is online now
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How have you still not figured out that it only matters if it's legal in the state you were doing it in?

I'm certain the fellow felt awful for hitting you, even though you were, at the very least, partly to blame. And I say that as someone who ride the sidewalk all the time. The difference is that I don't pull in front of vehicles pulling out unless I make eye contact with the driver. Because I'm more interested in being alive than being technically right.

I'm of the opinion that you took advantage, of his good nature in having him foot the entire bill for your bike, when it's clear you were in part at fault. You probably can't see it just now, because you're so invested in being 'right', but I'd wager in the future you will and you will feel chagrin for the part you played in causing this accident and especially the advantage you took of this man's good spirit.

Glad to hear you were wearing a helmet.
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  #157  
Old 07-03-2012, 09:29 AM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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Originally Posted by tdn View Post
No, it's still the driver's fault. It was his obligation to look where he was going.

The only thing that Sir T-Cups did wrong was not anticipating that the driver was going to be an idiot.
In a comparative negligence jurisdiction I'll bet it's at least 50/50. But for T-Cup not paying much attention, and illegally riding on the sidewalk, would this accident have happened?

The good news, bikes can be fixed, people not so easy. Thankfully, T-Cup is okay.
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  #158  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:14 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is online now
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Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
Good question! Nope I wasn't...not much of a drinker.
Just had to ask. Now for the tougher question: what kind of bar calls itself the Pink Pony and doesn't have a sign outside that says "Girls! Girls! Girls!"
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  #159  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:15 AM
johnpost johnpost is online now
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both vehicle operators would likely get a citation for a moving violation.

the damages either to a civil court or to insurance would be a different issue.
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  #160  
Old 07-03-2012, 11:37 AM
Rick Rick is online now
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Originally Posted by johnpost View Post
both vehicle operators would likely get a citation for a moving violation.

the damages either to a civil court or to insurance would be a different issue.
As I mentioned up thread this exact scenario happened to a buddy of mine while he was driving a company car. The cyclist was cited at the scene by the local police, my buddy was not. This was in Texas BTW.
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  #161  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:22 PM
johnpost johnpost is online now
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Originally Posted by Rick View Post
As I mentioned up thread this exact scenario happened to a buddy of mine while he was driving a company car. The cyclist was cited at the scene by the local police, my buddy was not. This was in Texas BTW.
in any situation police will do what they do. i do think that someone in a motorized vehicle in a driveway has to yield to anything on the sidewalk or street.
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  #162  
Old 07-03-2012, 01:25 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
I know that I was technically (God I'm starting to hate that word) a motorist because I was on my bike. But I was on a sidewalk where pedestrians are supposed to be and without the safety of a giant metal frame around me like a car has. In my eyes if you're not in a car you are a pedestrian and have the right of way.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm gonna get places a lot faster if I start riding my motorcycle on the sidewalk, especially since I'll be able to get the rights normally given to a pedestrian.

(Come to think of it, I once saw someone do that. A guy on moped needed to make a left turn, so he rode up on the sidewalk, then down a crosswalk whereby everyone had to yield for (and just about kill) him.
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  #163  
Old 07-03-2012, 02:34 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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FYI, Sir T-cups, in the interest of keeping your informed and safe, I encourage you to check out your state's bicycle advocacy organization which provides cyclists and motorists with a very informative website. You'll notice at the top of the page a photo of a cyclist, on a street not unlike the one you were on, obeying the relevant statutes set forth by the Alabama vehicular code, to which Alabama Bike Coalition has also helpfully provided links.

Further, you can find another useful link to bicycle commuter's guide that has reprinted some very reasonable tips for safe cycling:

Quote:
Vehicular Cycling involves "Five Rules for Traffic Cycling". Excerpted from the book Effective Cycling by John Forester, published by the M.I.T. Press. Copyright John Forester. (There is also a video by the same name.)
  1. Drive on the right side of the road, never on the left and never on the sidewalk.
  2. When you reach a more important or larger road than the one you are on, yield to crossing traffic. Here, yielding means looking to each side and waiting until no traffic is coming.
  3. When you intend to change lanes or to move laterally on the roadway, yield to traffic in the new lane or line of travel. Here, yielding means looking forward and backward until you see that no traffic is coming.
  4. When approaching an intersection, position yourself with respect to your destination direction -- on the right near the curb if you want to turn right, on the left near the centerline if you want to turn left, and between those positions if you want to go straight.
  5. Between intersections position yourself according to your speed relative to other traffic; slower traffic is nearer the curb and faster traffic is near the centerline.
See Rule #1? Read it again until you fully understand it. If you don't get it, read the entire article again. Ask more experienced cyclists to help you understand safe cycling. There are quite a few on this board more than willing to help you. Know your state's vehicular code. Be predictable (that's also covered in the article) so that other drivers are always aware of, and able to react in a manner safe for all to, your presence.

Knowing what you know now, ask yourself if you were: a) acting in accordance with the vehicular laws of your state, b) acting in a predictable manner that other drivers informed of the laws would expect, and c) if there is anything you could have done differently to avoid the accident. Hopefully, you come up with a more reasonable answer than this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhendo
Have you read Muffin's citation of the relevant Alabama code? Does it change your mind at all about this incident?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir T-cups
Not even a little.
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  #164  
Old 07-03-2012, 03:26 PM
Mr. Miskatonic Mr. Miskatonic is offline
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Careful, Brown Eyed Girl, Forester's rules are actually considered by some to be illegal in certain states .
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  #165  
Old 07-03-2012, 06:16 PM
Gangster Octopus Gangster Octopus is offline
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Mmmmm, potato skins!!! That's all I got out of it.
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  #166  
Old 07-03-2012, 07:27 PM
elbows elbows is online now
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I just know it's a titty bar, from the name!
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  #167  
Old 07-03-2012, 08:38 PM
Rick Rick is online now
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Originally Posted by johnpost View Post
in any situation police will do what they do. i do think that someone in a motorized vehicle in a driveway has to yield to anything on the sidewalk or street.
So what color is the sky on your planet? On this planet when an officer writes a citation it includes the code section that was violated. Now because of
A) the cite was written
And
B) to the best of my knowledge there is no vehicle code section entitled police will do what they do
I am going to say you are wrong.
However if you can cite the relevant code section for will do what they do I'm willing to change my mind.
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  #168  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:00 AM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Miskatonic View Post
Careful, Brown Eyed Girl, Forester's rules are actually considered by some to be illegal in certain states .
Covered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
Know your state's vehicular code.
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  #169  
Old 07-04-2012, 06:57 PM
Cheshire Human Cheshire Human is offline
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
Am I the only one who found it amusing to click on "Right here is exactly where it happened" and get a map of North America?
No, but he later gave a slightly better (but not much) link. I'm still laughing about that. Idiot wants us to care. No, it ain't going to happen. Idiot just going to idiot....
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  #170  
Old 07-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is online now
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
I just know it's a titty bar, from the name!
I looked it up. It isn't. This should overshadow all the discussion about bikes and right of way: how on earth is a place called the Pink Pony just a run of the mill sports pub sort of place? The mind wobbles.
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  #171  
Old 07-05-2012, 12:22 PM
Frosty Camel Frosty Camel is offline
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There are many people in this thread that are claiming it's safer to ride on the road rather than use the sidewalk. Could someone please explain this to me? I ride 30 miles every day. I am well aware and have been for years that it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk in my state. However, my concern when riding is for my personal safety, not what's legal.

On the main road through town I always ride on the sidewalk. About 4 years ago I decided to ignore the law because I was tired of almost getting run over. For what it's worth, I've never been given a ticket or warned. My own experience tells me it's much safer. The road is four narrow lanes with no median and no shoulder.

Close calls while riding on the road: Way to many to even begin to estimate.

Close calls while riding on the sidewalk: Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Of course wherever there is an entrance to a business or a side road I will always stop and make absolutely certain it is safe to cross. Also the sidewalk is mostly unused. In the rare case there is a pedestrian on the sidewalk I will stop and let them pass since they do have the right of way.

So could someone please explain to me the logic in saying the street is safer to ride on? My experience says otherwise.
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  #172  
Old 07-05-2012, 12:45 PM
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I'm with you Frosty Camel, 100%. Been riding my bike safely on the sidewalk, without incident for 20+ yrs.

The real problem is people like the OP, who wants to ride his bike on the sidewalk, like he's riding on a road.

Riding on the sidewalk, in a world clearly carcentric, where you can see there is no one using them for two blocks, just makes sense to me. In my city the downtown streets were put in over 100 yrs ago. Most are so thin, buses have to take the left lane to make a right hand turn.

It's not that hard to ride safely on the sidewalk. But you can't just play like you're on the road, going fast. You have to go slower, and stop more often. You have to be aware at every hedge or blind spot that there may be a drive there, with a vehicle pulling out the driver correctly looking toward traffic, not you. The onus is on you to notice him, he already looked and didn't see you, cause you weren't there yet.

The very silliest thing about the OP for me, as you will appreciate, I'm sure, is that there is nothing easier when you're riding on the sidewalk, to see if the driver of any pulling out vehicle can see you or not. Can you see his eyes? But the Op was going too fast to stop in time, (Wrong!), and didn't care that the driver clearly couldn't see him (Stupid!), because he felt he had the right of way, by being on the sidewalk! (Wrong!)

If you want to safely ride on sidewalks to you have to use the less foot traveled routes, always cede the sidewalk to pedestrians, (going onto the grass, or getting off your bike, shifting onto the roadway for half a block, etc.). You have to obey all the stops signs and red lights. And you have to go slow enough to stop suddenly should someone come running out of their house or drive and into the sidewalk. Also it's kind of nice to ding your horn when you're coming up behind people, not so they will step aside, (I'm going up on the grass anyway!), just so as not to startle them.

I am often riding in my hubby's car watching 1st year uni students try to navigate buses and trucks on ill designed, unfamiliar street, while, for three blocks in either direction, both sides of the street the sidewalks are totally empty.
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  #173  
Old 07-05-2012, 12:55 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
I'm with you Frosty Camel, 100%. Been riding my bike safely on the sidewalk, without incident for 20+ yrs.

The real problem is people like the OP, who wants to ride his bike on the sidewalk, like he's riding on a road.
Right.

Despite the fact that i've been piling on the OP in this thread, i haven't been doing merely because he rode on the sidewalk. Even when doing it is illegal, i don't really have too much trouble with cyclists riding on the sidewalk if they feel safer there. I understand that some roads are really shitty for cyclists, and i also understand that some cyclists aren't very confident riders and prefer to be away from the cars. Similarly, i don't care very much when pedestrians jaywalk.

But, if you're going to ride on the sidewalk, it's up to you to be extra careful, and to be aware of all of the ways that it's different from riding on the road. It means that you don't barrel along on narrow sidewalks; it means that you don't ride within inches of pedestrians; it means that you get off and walk your bike if necessary; and it means that you also understand that plenty of people, including drivers exiting properties, won't expect you to be there. Similarly, jaywalking pedestrians have a responsibility to make sure they don't impede traffic, and that they watch where the fuck they're going.

And, if you get into an accident when you're riding on the sidewalk in violation of the law, you need to man up and admit that at least part of the blame rests with you.

Edit:

Also, as someone who has been a pedestrian in quite a lot of large and mid-sized and small American cities, i have had FAR more close calls with cyclists than i have with cars. If i have a prejudice against cyclists who ride on the sidewalk, it's because too many of them act like assholes while doing it.

Last edited by mhendo; 07-05-2012 at 12:57 PM..
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  #174  
Old 07-05-2012, 01:01 PM
elbows elbows is online now
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Holy crap on a cracker!

Three posts in a row, with people expressing you can safely ride on a sidewalk if you take special care and accommodate drives and pedestrians. I rarely express this opinion anymore as the board is so rabidly against it.

Never thought I'd see the day. Colour me impressed.
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  #175  
Old 07-05-2012, 01:08 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
Holy crap on a cracker!

Three posts in a row, with people expressing you can safely ride on a sidewalk if you take special care and accommodate drives and pedestrians. I rarely express this opinion anymore as the board is so rabidly against it.

Never thought I'd see the day. Colour me impressed.
For me, it's partly about resignation.

I'd prefer that people ride on the road. I'd also like it if drivers were considerate enough of cyclists that all cyclists actually felt safe riding on the road. But i realize that, no matter how many laws are made, and no matter how much people rail against it, some cyclists will always ride on the sidewalk. If that's going to happen, then they should, at the very least, try not to ride like fucking douchebags while doing it.
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  #176  
Old 07-05-2012, 01:50 PM
EmAnJ EmAnJ is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
For me, it's partly about resignation.

I'd prefer that people ride on the road. I'd also like it if drivers were considerate enough of cyclists that all cyclists actually felt safe riding on the road. But i realize that, no matter how many laws are made, and no matter how much people rail against it, some cyclists will always ride on the sidewalk. If that's going to happen, then they should, at the very least, try not to ride like fucking douchebags while doing it.
This is how I feel too. It's illegal to ride on the sidewalk here, but many people do it. I ride on the road, like I'm supposed to, but I ride a road bike and ride fast. If someone is riding a little cruiser bike with three gears at 5 kms/hr through some neighborhood and taking care around driveways and pedestrians, fine. But in situations where the sidewalks are crowded (i.e. downtown Calgary) or there is poor visibility around driveways, get off and walk your bike or ride on the road like you're supposed to. If you ride fast, get on the road. Basically, if you are riding faster than someone running/jogging on the sidewalk, get off the sidewalk.

Oh, and wear a helmut.

Last edited by EmAnJ; 07-05-2012 at 01:51 PM..
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  #177  
Old 07-05-2012, 02:03 PM
elbows elbows is online now
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Jeeze, where were all you reasonable people the last time this was discussed? Suddenly I feel bad for having judged the community as being totally one sided on the issue. I misjudged you all, apologies!
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  #178  
Old 07-05-2012, 02:40 PM
Hbns Hbns is offline
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It is the sidewalk. If you want to be there with your bicycle, get off and walk it. Now a multi-use trail is a different animal, but also designed to better accommodate different types of traffic at different relative velocities.
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  #179  
Old 07-05-2012, 07:09 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Originally Posted by Frosty Camel View Post
There are many people in this thread that are claiming it's safer to ride on the road rather than use the sidewalk. Could someone please explain this to me? I ride 30 miles every day. I am well aware and have been for years that it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk in my state. However, my concern when riding is for my personal safety, not what's legal.
This study [PDF] indicates that cycling on the sidewalk results in greater numbers of injuries than road cycling.

Quote:
Nonsidewalk cyclists in both cities have lower rates per travel distance for all four events on the road. Even on paths, sidewalk cyclists have higher rates for falls, injuries, and major injuries. Note that these rates take into account the fact that sidewalk cyclists might travel less on the road.

...

The most significant result of the analysis is that sidewalk cyclists have higher event rates on roads than nonsidewalk cyclists. The most interesting result of the analysis was the finding that sidewalk cyclists have higher event rates on roads than nonsidewalk cyclists. Although sidewalk cyclists’ road event rates were greater in both cities, they were statistically significant only for Ottawa. However, this result still has implications for education and countermeasure development for the high event rates found on sidewalks. Although average event rates on sidewalks may be higher than similar event rates on roads or paths, simply educating cyclists to stop cycling on sidewalks may not be prudent as these cyclists have higher
event rates on roads than nonsidewalk cyclists.
So, according to this study, the lack of cycling skill found more prevalent in sidewalk cyclists means if you aren't skilled enough to cycle in the road where you belong, you are probably safer on the sidewalk, although you're probably more likely to experience a fall or injury on the sidewalk than a road cyclist will on the road.

Maybe the lesson here is to learn how to ride a bike like an adult.

Last edited by Brown Eyed Girl; 07-05-2012 at 07:10 PM..
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  #180  
Old 07-05-2012, 07:20 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Originally Posted by EmAnJ View Post
Oh, and wear a helmut.
This one is probably not a good idea because it could get caught in the drivetrain, but this one is cute!
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  #181  
Old 07-05-2012, 07:51 PM
Frosty Camel Frosty Camel is offline
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Originally Posted by Brown Eyed Girl View Post
This study [PDF] indicates that cycling on the sidewalk results in greater numbers of injuries than road cycling.



So, according to this study, the lack of cycling skill found more prevalent in sidewalk cyclists means if you aren't skilled enough to cycle in the road where you belong, you are probably safer on the sidewalk, although you're probably more likely to experience a fall or injury on the sidewalk than a road cyclist will on the road.

Maybe the lesson here is to learn how to ride a bike like an adult.
So explain to me how its possible that in all the years I was OBEYING the law and riding on the road I had one close call after another. I view riding on the particular stretch of road I'm talking about as suicidal. What made up my mind was getting clipped. I was able to recover so I didn't fall, but after that I said "to hell with the law" and began riding on the sidewalk. Not a single close call in the four years since then.

As far as skill, let me emphasize that I got clipped! By a pickup truck! A pickup truck that was moving at about 60 MPH! I recovered and didn't fall. I think that says volumes about my cycling skill.

Oh, and to me riding like an adult would mean that I'm open minded enough to modify what I believe (you're supposed to ride on the road) and start doing something else (riding on the sidewalk) when the situation calls for it in order to stay alive and live to cycle another day.

Note the I said "When the situation calls for it." The sidewalk in question is, except a few rare times, unused. There are usually no pedestrians at all.

Last edited by Frosty Camel; 07-05-2012 at 07:55 PM..
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  #182  
Old 07-05-2012, 10:24 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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A. You are a more skilled cyclist than most sidewalk cyclists given your experience road cycling.
B. You are an outlier.
C. The study didn't count "close calls."
D. All of the above.
E. God is your handlebar bitch.
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  #183  
Old 07-06-2012, 03:34 AM
Floater Floater is offline
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Originally Posted by Frosty Camel View Post
There are many people in this thread that are claiming it's safer to ride on the road rather than use the sidewalk. Could someone please explain this to me? I ride 30 miles every day. I am well aware and have been for years that it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk in my state. However, my concern when riding is for my personal safety, not what's legal.
It's not so much about your personal safety but the safety of those you endanger by recklessly cycling on the sidewalk.
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  #184  
Old 07-06-2012, 12:42 PM
Skywatcher Skywatcher is offline
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
Holy crap on a cracker!

Three posts in a row, with people expressing you can safely ride on a sidewalk if you take special care and accommodate drives and pedestrians. I rarely express this opinion anymore as the board is so rabidly against it.

Never thought I'd see the day. Colour me impressed.
I live in a county which has officially designated some sidewalks as bicycle trails so I share the same opinion as well.

ETA: those sidewalks are either asphalt with a yellow center line or extra-wide concrete.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 07-06-2012 at 12:46 PM..
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  #185  
Old 07-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Frosty Camel Frosty Camel is offline
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Originally Posted by Floater View Post
It's not so much about your personal safety but the safety of those you endanger by recklessly cycling on the sidewalk.
I think you missed this part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty Camel View Post
Of course wherever there is an entrance to a business or a side road I will always stop and make absolutely certain it is safe to cross. Also the sidewalk is mostly unused. In the rare case there is a pedestrian on the sidewalk I will stop and let them pass since they do have the right of way.
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  #186  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:01 AM
misterW misterW is offline
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Originally Posted by CatherineZeta View Post
Sorry if I'm being redundant, but riding in the street is MUCH safer because a bike technically speaking is a vehicle- the only difference between a bicycle and say a scooter or a motorcycle is you're powering it with your legs, not an engine.
I'm not saying the best place for bicycles is the sidewalk, but that ^ is a ridiculous statement. It is certainly safer for pedestrians if bikers are on the street, I'll give you that. But there is no way you are safer with your back to traffic, leaving your safety completely in the hands of drivers who text as they whiz past you with inches to spare. There are some places that are just dangerous to ride a bike. No cars on the sidewalk that I know of. Yes, when you approach driveways and cross streets, you need to be careful, but that is easily done, and in no way compares to the risk you would face on a dangerous street. Again, I'm not saying that people should ride on the sidewalk -- I can think of many reasons why that is a bad idea -- but to pretend that it is more dangerous to do so as well is a bit much.
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