The game Minecraft took in almost one quarter of a billion dollars in 2012? WTF?

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by Airk

You REALLY need to stop with the whole "I have a hard time believing that you...<insert thing that people have absolutely no reason to lie about here>" thing.

I don't think you're lying, I just think you're wrong. This isn't something that's close - the number of mods coming out and the people involved in the modding community and the people using/playing the mods has changed by at least an order of magnitude. It isn't even close. If it were close, I might buy what you're saying, but since it isn't I just have to assume you weren't involved in the relevant stuff at that time period.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Airk

You REALLY need to stop with the whole "I have a hard time believing that you...<insert thing that people have absolutely no reason to lie about here>" thing.

Yes. I have been a "gamer" since like 1982. I have not stopped. I have never really cared about the size of the "modding community" however - if I see a cool mod come up for a game I play, I nab it, but I'm a picky bastard and most mods are absolutely not even worth my time to keep track of, then or now. Believe it or not, just because people were in the same enormous hobby as you during the same time period doesn't mean that they paid the same amount of attention to the same titles, or even if they have, that they come away feeling the same way about them.

It's really quite frustrating to be dimissed like this over stupid stuff.

Agreed absolutely.

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Agreed absolutely.

Agreed absolutely that you think the modding community is just as vibrant as it was 10 years ago, or that you dislike me and just want to +1 him?

I really hate having to do busywork to prove the obvious, but what do I have to do here? Go back to some mod site that catalogs mods and compare the number available then and now? Is it enough to prove that most of the popular games now aren't moddable but almost all back then were? Do I have to prove the average player bases playing total conversion mods then and now? What's the criteria here?

[Airk]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

I really hate having to do busywork to prove the obvious, but what do I have to do here? Go back to some mod site that catalogs mods and compare the number available then and now? Is it enough to prove that most of the popular games now aren't moddable but almost all back then were? Do I have to prove the average player bases playing total conversion mods then and now? What's the criteria here?

Neither; You just need to grasp that just because I'm not paying a "enough" attention to the amount of mods that come out now vs 1999, that I wasn't a "gamer" at some point. It's absurd and insulting.

Frankly, I will take your WORD for it if you really think there's that big a difference. I still won't SEE the difference, but I'm prepared to believe you if you'd stop being a jerk. -_-

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by Airk

Neither; You just need to grasp that just because I'm not paying a "enough" attention to the amount of mods that come out now vs 1999, that I wasn't a "gamer" at some point. It's absurd and insulting.

Frankly, I will take your WORD for it if you really think there's that big a difference. I still won't SEE the difference, but I'm prepared to believe you if you'd stop being a jerk. -_-

To make an analogy, it's as if I said "there's more passing in today's NFL than there was 30 years ago" and you said you didn't see a difference. My first reaction would be "are you sure you were watching the NFL back then to compare?" - it's incredulity rather than an attempt to be insulting. It's one of those things that seems so obvious to me that it seems hard to believe that reasonable people could disagree.

If it makes you feel better, I should've said "are you sure you were involved/aware of the modding community back then?" rather than saying "gamer"

[Trepa Mayfield]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

<snip>
In general, there are just fewer people playing these sorts of games on PC than in the past where PC was basically the sole platform for them, so with fewer people they're concentrated into fewer games, there are fewer people to try out new mods.

Consolization isn't the only factor - digital distribution has allowed indie developers to make a run at making a paid product rather than a mod, so some content that would've probably been a free mod 10 years ago now comes out as a $10-20 indie game.

There are still plenty of great mods available, but it's nowhere near the golden age. Not even in the same ballpark.

I wonder if some of that--and if so, how much--is people who would have put tons of effort into modding games instead making their own games from scratch and putting them out on the internet. It seems like there are a lot more indie game developers now than there were 10 years ago, especially if you account for free online 'flash' games.

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by Trepa Mayfield

I wonder if some of that--and if so, how much--is people who would have put tons of effort into modding games instead making their own games from scratch and putting them out on the internet. It seems like there are a lot more indie game developers now than there were 10 years ago, especially if you account for free online 'flash' games.

I do think that's a factor, and I mentioned that upthread. For example, 2 games I'm playing now: Natural Selection 2 is a $25 indie game, but Natural Selection the original was one of the great half life mods. Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is in the same boat - it's the sequel to a free Age of Chivalry mod.

So digital distribution has allowed more people to turn what would've been mod work into commercial products. But on the other hand, these were proven mod teams with proven products putting sequels into commercial production. An unknown first timer really has to build credibility first in the mod scene before taking a chance like that, and the amount of first timers have dried up.

And as I said, it's a lot more common for games to come without any sort of modding or mapmaking tools. It's either because they're lazy (they're going after the console market and don't really care about the pc version of their game, so they don't care if there's free extra content) or deliberate (could call of duty try to charge you $5 a map if there were hundreds of free good-quality maps out there?).

There are also just fewer people playing games on PC, so fewer people to become interested in modding, and fewer people to play them.

I'm not sure how much each factor plays a role, but it's pretty clear to me that user created content has been on a huge decline, so I objected to the previous poster's characterization that game designers are coming to realize that user created content is good. On the contrary, they've been trying to stamp it out if anything.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

Agreed absolutely that you think the modding community is just as vibrant as it was 10 years ago, or that you dislike me and just want to +1 him?

I really hate having to do busywork to prove the obvious, but what do I have to do here? Go back to some mod site that catalogs mods and compare the number available then and now? Is it enough to prove that most of the popular games now aren't moddable but almost all back then were? Do I have to prove the average player bases playing total conversion mods then and now? What's the criteria here?

Dude, calm down. I like you fine. I just think you get insulting when people disagree with you, and it's unnecessary.

As for what you have to do--sure, some cite would be nice. Decide exactly what you're claiming, and then provide evidence for the claim. I've been playing computer games since I had to program them myself into my Vic-20 and record the programs on cassette tapes, FWIW.

[SenorBeef]

I think you guys are reading me to be much more insulting than I'm actually intending. It may be spillover from the other thread, in which I actually was insulting and apologized, but I don't feel as if I've been insulting in this thread at all.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I genuinely don't know what other thread you're talking about. The only other Game thread I've been reading recently is the Battle for Wesnoth one.

[Merneith]

Honestly, the best modding community in the world today is the Elder Scrolls gang, who started with Morrowind. The Elder Scrolls modders make their own tools and they didn't even need to wait for the Skyrim Creation kit to come out before they'd modded their FO3 tools and started cranking out Skyrim stuff.

Modding itself is far more involved than it used to be, with the inclusion of 3d modelling, advanced lighting and scripting and more sophisticated and demanding audience. It's more complicated today than it's ever been and modders are rising to the challenge.

TL;DR - I'll see your Counterstrike and raise you the entire DOTA genre which is poised to become an eSport empire.

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by Merneith

Honestly, the best modding community in the world today is the Elder Scrolls gang, who started with Morrowind. The Elder Scrolls modders make their own tools and they didn't even need to wait for the Skyrim Creation kit to come out before they'd modded their FO3 tools and started cranking out Skyrim stuff.

The Bethesda community is still as strong as ever, I agree. It's one of the few exceptions I think I pointed out upthread. They've always given modders the proper tools, and there are still enough people playing those games on PC that you have a modding community that's the equal of the old modding communities. But the difference is that it's now the exception, rather than the rule.

Modding itself is far more involved than it used to be, with the inclusion of 3d modelling, advanced lighting and scripting and more sophisticated and demanding audience. It's more complicated today than it's ever been and modders are rising to the challenge.

This may be a factor.

TL;DR - I'll see your Counterstrike and raise you the entire DOTA genre which is poised to become an eSport empire.

DOTA/MOBA games aren't free mods, now, they're commercial products. They began as a free mod in warcraft 3 back in like 2002, so I think that supports my position if anything. There are fewer people working on creating something new via modding, so while we've got DOTA as a commercialized version of an early-2000s mod, no one is working on the next DOTA.

[Merneith]

No one's making free Counterstrike mods any more either. <shrug>

[Airk]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

To make an analogy, it's as if I said "there's more passing in today's NFL than there was 30 years ago" and you said you didn't see a difference. My first reaction would be "are you sure you were watching the NFL back then to compare?" - it's incredulity rather than an attempt to be insulting. It's one of those things that seems so obvious to me that it seems hard to believe that reasonable people could disagree.

Only there's absolutely nothing about playing games that requires people to be even remotely aware of the modding community. I suspect that's another issue - the size of the gaming 'body' has grown, but the number of people who care about mods probably hasn't increased anywhere near proportionally. To use your analogy, it's more like saying "There are more IBBs in baseball than there were 20 years ago." and then acting dumbfounded when people just weren't paying that much attention.

If it makes you feel better, I should've said "are you sure you were involved/aware of the modding community back then?" rather than saying "gamer"

I was definitely not "involved" in it in the sense of "following" any particular mods, which is the sense I get when you say "involved", even though, truthfully, very, very few people are "involved" in it in that way.

The closest I've ever been to "involved" in a mod was creating a mission for Freespace 2 (I won a T-shirt, go me) and screwing around with some custom AIs for Kohan 2 which never produced results I felt were worth keeping. Freespace 2 shipped with an excellent mission editor (Which, I should note, didn't help the game sell well even though it's popularly regarded as excellent), and my current space-sim-of-choice, Strike Suit Zero, is supposed to be shipping "mod tools" sometime in the not too far distant future, so that's a break even from my perspective, and I've never encountered another RTS game since Kohan that even understood the IDEA of "more than one AI" nevermind allowing anyone to tune them, so that, to me, is more of an example of a one-off event than any sort of trend. So maybe the REAL answer is "I mostly play games that are less mainstream than you, so I don't really have a finger on the pulse of how many big mods are coming out for the games that 'everyone plays'."

But when you get right down to, I think you're right about there probably being a decrease in the number of "mods" There's:

A) Very little financial incentive for a company to publish mod tools because it's extra work to make their dev tools remotely ready for "end users" (even the Freespace 2 mission editor had bits where the 'help' for a given function said something like "If you need to know what this does, ask Dave.") AND because making it easy for others to produce content for your game means that people are less likely to pay YOU to produce content for your game

AND

B) There's now financial incentive for people who once-upon-a-time would have been modders to say "Why should I make content for someone else's game when I can make my own game and sell it?" - it's easier than ever for people to get into the development business, which in a way is far, FAR better than having these talented people stuck making new maps for some RTS.

So I guess at the end of the day, I don't really think the decline in modding a problem.

[Stink Fish Pot]

Originally Posted by shijinn

you're thinking of building your own robot girl army aren't you?

I put autocorrect back on my editor, and this is the thanks I get. I still fat finger things, but now the computer just thinks it knows what I meant, and puts a word in there. There is no excuse. I should have proof-read my post, but holy cow, my post doesn't even make sense!

Originally Posted by dzeiger

Interactive, .
<big snip>

. issues.

Thank you for the great explanation!

[drewtwo99]

As a huge fan of minecraft, to me, it's about *way* more than just building or creating things. Most of the fun of the game for me comes from exploring new underground mines and caverns and strongholds and finding rare metals and diamonds and gems.

I love the enchantment system and building up experience to try and get the best enchantments possible to get awesome gear. I love playing with others, exploring and such together.

And yes, I do like building things too, but nothing all that monumental. I really love red stone circuitry and all the amazing things you can do with it. It's basically like simple programming, sending on/off signals (or 1's and 0's if you prefer) to get stuff done with all kinds of devices. I've built elevators and trap doors and such, it's just a lot of fun.

Mods open up even more amazing creativity which is essentially limitless!

So, there's way more to minecraft than just building houses and such. I immensely enjoy just wandering around, getting lost, fighting monsters, gathering hard-to-find items, collecting experience for enchantments, brewing awesome potions, etc, etc, etc. It's a game that just keeps getting better and better with time too. Each update adds more and keeps giving me a reason to come back and play.

And this is saying a LOT because above and beyond all other things, a great storyline is the MOST important quality in a game to me, and minecraft literally has none... and yet I still love it!