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  #201  
Old 04-25-2017, 02:21 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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So what you're saying is that I can't have any ethnocultural pride at all, since I don't have any dominant ethnicity. I'm going to ignore that, and continue to be proud of my Northern European heritage.
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  #202  
Old 04-25-2017, 02:36 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
So what you're saying is that I can't have any ethnocultural pride at all, since I don't have any dominant ethnicity. I'm going to ignore that, and continue to be proud of my Northern European heritage.
Why would you want to? The concept of racial/ethnic pride for majority populations has an absolutely horrific history. What good comes from it?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-25-2017 at 02:37 PM..
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  #203  
Old 04-25-2017, 02:52 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Why would you want to? The concept of racial/ethnic pride for majority populations has an absolutely horrific history. What good comes from it?
Yeah, it is little different from rooting for laundry.
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  #204  
Old 04-25-2017, 04:19 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Why would you want to? The concept of racial/ethnic pride for majority populations has an absolutely horrific history. What good comes from it?
Then don't feel ethnic pride. I want to, and I don't think there's any harm in it, as long as it's not applied to those horrific ends. Just like it's OK to enjoy Wagner, as long as you are not going to cook up a Final Solution while humming along.

You do hint however at an interesting and unspoken premise that many hold but I do not. The admittedly oversimplified version goes something like this:

For a few centuries now, the various nationalities of the earth have been playing a kind of global game of Risk. (Before that there were regional games.) Under this version of the rules, whichever group grabs the most territory and resources before nuclear weapons are invented is the winner. (After that the board is mostly frozen in place, with a little tinkering here and there.) Northern Europeans clearly won (although East Asians held their own). So the idea you have, which many other people share, is that people of Northern European heritage are being poor sports if we take pride in that heritage. We are supposed to refrain from this because we won the game. Right?
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  #205  
Old 04-25-2017, 04:25 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Which northern European nation scored higher than China?

And you can still feel ethnic pride, if you want. In fact, you can feel pride for a bunch of different ethnicities. I mean, heck, the ethnicity I most identify with is Irish, even though I'm less than a quarter Irish. So go ahead, be proud of your Viking ancestors, and of your French ancestors, and so on. Just recognize that they weren't all the same ancestors.
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  #206  
Old 04-25-2017, 04:37 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Which northern European nation scored higher than China?
Britain. Russia. Maybe even France.
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  #207  
Old 04-25-2017, 04:59 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Then don't feel ethnic pride. I want to, and I don't think there's any harm in it, as long as it's not applied to those horrific ends. Just like it's OK to enjoy Wagner, as long as you are not going to cook up a Final Solution while humming along.
I think such pride can increase the likelihood of these horrific ends -- ethnic pride, in fact, is one of the necessary ingredients for certain types of atrocities. You might be smart enough to not buy into such rhetoric, if it sprang up in your community... but what about all the others you celebrated and encouraged ethnic pride with? They might be more susceptible than you. Are you really not worried at all if your dumb-ass neighbor expresses ethnic pride? You don't think that has any chance of increasing the likelihood that he does something terrible? Is there anything to balance the scales on the "good side" that requires ethnic pride? I can't think of anything. It seems almost wholly negative, especially when it's a majority and unoppressed group.

Quote:
You do hint however at an interesting and unspoken premise that many hold but I do not. The admittedly oversimplified version goes something like this:

For a few centuries now, the various nationalities of the earth have been playing a kind of global game of Risk. (Before that there were regional games.) Under this version of the rules, whichever group grabs the most territory and resources before nuclear weapons are invented is the winner. (After that the board is mostly frozen in place, with a little tinkering here and there.) Northern Europeans clearly won (although East Asians held their own). So the idea you have, which many other people share, is that people of Northern European heritage are being poor sports if we take pride in that heritage. We are supposed to refrain from this because we won the game. Right?
I don't hold this premise at all -- it's kind of horrifying. It implies that bloody competition and conflict is/was absolutely necessary rather than usually manufactured in some way.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-25-2017 at 05:01 PM..
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  #208  
Old 04-25-2017, 05:10 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Interesting subject, but getting pretty off topic for this thread. Start a new thread and PM me the link, and I will be happy to engage.
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  #209  
Old 04-25-2017, 08:30 PM
TYphoonSignal8 TYphoonSignal8 is offline
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Yes: off to Great Debates with half of this thread, I'd suggest.

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There is a difference between changing the race/gender/sexuality of characters and the legacies, sure. But some people want to discuss when it's okay to change a character's race.

I don't think being a main character is the limit. The issue is simply whether or not they could believably have the same story. Peter Parker? Yeah, he basically could. Bruce Wayne? Not really. You might be able to pull it off if the Waynes adopt him, but then there'd be legitimacy problems that Bruce Wayne would need to deal with--is he really their kid? If you change his parents' race, though, then the context of their shooting changes.

Superman needs to crash in a podunk town in the middle of the whiter part of America, and be adopted without anyone batting an eye. Yeah, he probably has to stay white. You change it, and Clark Kent is different. (Also, the more modern you make Superman, the less that origin works.)

I'd argue Dick Grayson could be pretty much any race, though. I don't think you can make him female, as that would make Batgirl seem weird. (You can make Robin female, as we all know.)

My point is that the line is really just "what would work with the character that's been established in the public consciousness?" Yes, that makes secondary characters easier, since they may not have established much in the public consciousness. But there are others that can be changed, too.

Of course, reality with the racial problems in Hollywood means there's no reason whitewash. The goal is more diversity, not less.
Clark Kent in the Marvel Universe is essentially a purple-skinned alien. Have a good look at Gladiator's uniform and chest symbol. The character obviously was not rocketed to Earth from a dying planet, however, and I agree that a key essence of the Superman mythos is the ability to hide amongst humans unrecognised, seemingly the most innocuous and harmless of them.

Warren Ellis' Simon Spector is essentially Bruce Wayne, but black (and, like Sherlock Holmes, on some life-sapping drugs).
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  #210  
Old 04-25-2017, 09:25 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
So what you're saying is that I can't have any ethnocultural pride at all, since I don't have any dominant ethnicity. I'm going to ignore that, and continue to be proud of my Northern European heritage.
As we keep trying to point out, northern Europe is the home of a hundred ethnicities with nothing in common except that they've been at war with one another for the past thousand years.

And white skin. They all have white skin.

So the only thing you are actually proud of is having white skin.

No matter how you try to spin it, there it sits, glaring at us through all the obfuscation.
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  #211  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:19 PM
bmoak bmoak is offline
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Originally Posted by TYphoonSignal8 View Post
Yes: off to Great Debates with half of this thread, I'd suggest.



Clark Kent in the Marvel Universe is essentially a purple-skinned alien. Have a good look at Gladiator's uniform and chest symbol. The character obviously was not rocketed to Earth from a dying planet, however, and I agree that a key essence of the Superman mythos is the ability to hide amongst humans unrecognised, seemingly the most innocuous and harmless of them.
Gladiator was explicitly created to be a Superman/Superboy analog, just as the rest of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard were one-for-one analogs of the the Legion of Super-Heroes. New X-Men artist Dave Cockrum had come to Marvel from DC, where he had been the Legion artist. The Imperial Guard was basically created to do an X-Men vs Legion story.

Hyperion of the Squadron Supreme/Squadron Sinister is an even closer Marvel Universe Superman, but I believe both versions came to earth as an adult.

DC's Milestone imprint, best remembered for Static Shock, had the Dwayne McDuffie-created Icon, who was basically a black Superman. His alien lifepod changed his infantappearance to conform with the first sentient lifeform to open the pod, which landed in a sharecropper's field in the Deep South.
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  #212  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:33 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Gladiator was explicitly created to be a Superman/Superboy analog, just as the rest of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard were one-for-one analogs of the the Legion of Super-Heroes. New X-Men artist Dave Cockrum had come to Marvel from DC, where he had been the Legion artist.
I was gonna say...those costumes are so similar! I wanted to ask if Marvel can really get away with that, but I guess they did.

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Hyperion of the Squadron Supreme/Squadron Sinister is an even closer Marvel Universe Superman, but I believe both versions came to earth as an adult.
Another really shady move I'm amazed they got away with. According to Wikipedia, he was a baby when he came to Earth.

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Originally Posted by bmoak View Post
DC's Milestone imprint, best remembered for Static Shock, had the Dwayne McDuffie-created Icon, who was basically a black Superman. His alien lifepod changed his infantappearance to conform with the first sentient lifeform to open the pod, which landed in a sharecropper's field in the Deep South.
What a cool idea. Was he even humanoid before that?
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  #213  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:51 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Hijack on ethnic pride moved here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...php?p=20163690
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  #214  
Old 04-26-2017, 07:01 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Yeah, that's a neat resolution to the question of why an alien should look exactly like a human. One assumes that infants of that species lose that plasticity as they age, so it wouldn't be possible to change an adult's appearance that way (otherwise, you've got yet one more superpower to deal with).
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  #215  
Old 04-26-2017, 11:44 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yeah, that's a neat resolution to the question of why an alien should look exactly like a human. One assumes that infants of that species lose that plasticity as they age, so it wouldn't be possible to change an adult's appearance that way (otherwise, you've got yet one more superpower to deal with).
I really hate the shapeshifters who not only can replicate external shape but voice and mannerisms, and most especially, clothing.
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  #216  
Old 04-26-2017, 03:10 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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I really hate the shapeshifters who not only can replicate external shape but voice and mannerisms, and most especially, clothing.
Yeah, relatedly it was kind of weird in the recent TV series Legion that one character, who lived inside her brother most of the time, came out of him not only with clothes on but even one time carrying a baseball bat with spikes on it. Like, is there a wardrobe and arsenal in there? LOL
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  #217  
Old 04-26-2017, 04:00 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Another really shady move I'm amazed they got away with.
Just as Gladiator and the Shi'ar Imperial Guard were a riff on Legion of Superheroes, Squadron Supreme was originally a very explicit riff on the Justice League; each member of the Squadron was clearly an analogue to a JLA member (Hyperion = Superman, Nighthawk = Batman, Power Princess = Wonder Woman, Doctor Spectrum = Green Lantern, Whizzer = Flash, etc.)
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  #218  
Old 04-26-2017, 07:32 PM
bmoak bmoak is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I was gonna say...those costumes are so similar! I wanted to ask if Marvel can really get away with that, but I guess they did.
Back in the 60s and 70s, DC and Marvel were more casual about unofficial crossovers and cameos. I guess it wasn't anticipated that a lot of these supposedly one-off pastiches would grow to have a life of their own.

I used to be able to list all the Imperial Guard and their Legion counterparts (Fang=Timber Wolf, Oracle=Dream Girl, Hobgoblin=Chameleon Boy, etc.). Later appearances of the Imperial Guard that added new members moved away from the IG=Legion template.

Speaking of Fang, in the IG's first appearance, Wolverine beat him, stripped him, and took his orange-and-brown duds to get within striking distance of other Guard members. While Dave Cockrum didn't create Timber Wolf, he did re-design him to give him a more "feral appearance", including a distinctive hairstyle with a peak in front and upswept sides.



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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Another really shady move I'm amazed they got away with. According to Wikipedia, he was a baby when he came to Earth.
See below. While the Avengers were fighting the Squadron Sinister, the JLA was fighting the Champions of Angor.


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What a cool idea. Was he even humanoid before that?
Not sure.
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  #219  
Old 04-26-2017, 07:49 PM
bmoak bmoak is offline
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Just as Gladiator and the Shi'ar Imperial Guard were a riff on Legion of Superheroes, Squadron Supreme was originally a very explicit riff on the Justice League; each member of the Squadron was clearly an analogue to a JLA member (Hyperion = Superman, Nighthawk = Batman, Power Princess = Wonder Woman, Doctor Spectrum = Green Lantern, Whizzer = Flash, etc.)
In their original appearance, it was just Hyperion, Nighthawk, Dr. Spectrum, and the Whizzer and they were the Squadron Sinister, pawns that the Grandmaster manipulated in one of his games versus the Avengers. It was later revealed that the Grandmaster had modeled them after the Squadron Supreme, heroes from another dimension. Each time the Squadron Supreme appeared, they had new members that were obvious copies of Justice Leaguers. Do I really need to spell out who, say, Cap'n Hawk, Amphibion, Golden Archer, Lady Lark, and Arcanna were modeled after?

In case you feel bad for DC because Marvel was ripping them off, at around the same time the Avengers were battling the Squadron, the JLA was battling the Champions of Angor, who were the sole survivors of their planet in another dimension and manipulated into blaming the JLA for their loss. The team consisted of:

Wandjina: Super-strength, plus control of lightning and thunder.
Blue Jay: Flight and shrinking.
Silver Sorceress: Powerful but unpredictable mystical powers.
Jack B. Quick: Superspeed, plus a stylish light-blue and silver costume.
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  #220  
Old 04-26-2017, 08:59 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by bmoak View Post
In case you feel bad for DC because Marvel was ripping them off, at around the same time the Avengers were battling the Squadron, the JLA was battling the Champions of Angor, who were the sole survivors of their planet in another dimension and manipulated into blaming the JLA for their loss. The team consisted of:

Wandjina: Super-strength, plus control of lightning and thunder.
Blue Jay: Flight and shrinking.
Silver Sorceress: Powerful but unpredictable mystical powers.
Jack B. Quick: Superspeed, plus a stylish light-blue and silver costume.
Bahahaha! What a joke. (But wait: no "Lieutenant U.S.A.?")

ETA: I found a pic--but you forgot Hawk--er, "the Bowman"!

Last edited by SlackerInc; 04-26-2017 at 09:02 PM..
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  #221  
Old 04-26-2017, 10:07 PM
bmoak bmoak is offline
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Those were the original four. Later appearances by the team added more characters in flashbacks. Blue Jay and Silver Sorceress actually ended up joining the Justice League at one point.
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  #222  
Old Today, 02:14 AM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
You do hint however at an interesting and unspoken premise that many hold but I do not. The admittedly oversimplified version goes something like this:

For a few centuries now, the various nationalities of the earth have been playing a kind of global game of Risk. (Before that there were regional games.) Under this version of the rules, whichever group grabs the most territory and resources before nuclear weapons are invented is the winner. (After that the board is mostly frozen in place, with a little tinkering here and there.) Northern Europeans clearly won (although East Asians held their own). So the idea you have, which many other people share, is that people of Northern European heritage are being poor sports if we take pride in that heritage. We are supposed to refrain from this because we won the game. Right?
No.

We are supposed to stop thinking that the point of life is to win at Risk. That way lies children on fire.

Last edited by foolsguinea; Today at 02:14 AM..
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