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  #951  
Old 02-15-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I'm guessing that it was a goulash. It's standard practice here that if a hand is passed out the first time its played it gets re-dealt as a goulash.
Goulash gives you wild distribution not powerhouse hands.
  #952  
Old 02-15-2019, 10:41 AM
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My mention of Bridge at Berkeley brought back memories. There were some very top-notch players who played bridge for money on campus for several years.

Sometimes they played a goulash variation for money — every hand was goulashed. The rules:
* First player must open if he has 13 hcp.
* 2nd player must bid 4NT or higher.
* When the auction is over, high bidder selects whoever he wants to be his partner! If necessary this player will swap seats to get into the dummy position.
* If dealer opened the bidding and is selected to be dummy but has less than 13 hcp then, optionally, the hand is thrown in.
* The chosen dummy says "accept" or "reject." If he says "reject" dealer is playing for triple stakes! — against both defenders and dummy.
Does anyone else remember this variation of Goulash?

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Originally Posted by amarone View Post
Alas, hearts were 4-0 so down I went.
Did you table your hand and say "Down one" when RHO showed out on the first round of trumps? If so, you might have fallen for a ruse I witnessed in another money bridge game at the UCB student union. RHO, who showed out of trumps despite not being void and thereby scored Down One against a making slam is a name you might have heard of:
SPOILER:
He went on to become a highly respected (and well-liked I guess) world championship-winning player, and is now deceased. But at the time he played regularly in the UCB, he was a speed-freak, eating dozens of pills daily.
SPOILER:
No; I've decided not to post his name explicitly. But his name anagrammed is:

Kelly Snare

Last edited by septimus; 02-15-2019 at 10:42 AM.
  #953  
Old 02-15-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by K364 View Post
Goulie assumes that the hands are sorted into suits. The four hands are stacked together and cut. Then dealt three, three, three, four cards at a time. There are variants to this.
The variant used over here is fives then threes.

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Goulash gives you wild distribution not powerhouse hands.
But a wild distribution can lead to a powerhouse.
  #954  
Old 02-15-2019, 11:11 AM
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The variant used over here is fives then threes.



But a wild distribution can lead to a powerhouse.
Yes, a 10 count 7-6 distribution is very powerful. But the hand in question had 23 high card. I can't see how a passed out goulie is going to produce that.
  #955  
Old 02-15-2019, 11:43 AM
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Yes, a 10 count 7-6 distribution is very powerful. But the hand in question had 23 high card. I can't see how a passed out goulie is going to produce that.
Note that among 4-3-3-3 hands (from uniform random shuffles), a whopping 1 in 350 have 23 hcp or more.
Among 7-5-1-0 hands, only 1 in 5000 have 23 hcp or more. (Zero of them have 25 hcp or more!)

ETA: Yes I'd like to hear more from amarone about the "shuffling" at his duplicate club!

Last edited by septimus; 02-15-2019 at 11:46 AM.
  #956  
Old 02-15-2019, 11:51 AM
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Here's an interesting tidbit from last night's play. I accidentally called for a card from dummy and RHO immediately played. Dummy called, "You're in hand partner" a smidge too late. The director was called and because the opposition were deemed to have accepted the lead I did not have the option of correcting my play.
  #957  
Old 02-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by K364 View Post
I can't see how a passed out goulie is going to produce that.
It depends upon how the cards are sorted. Not everyone sorts them into SHDC order. Indeed, some players - at least one at my club - don't sort their cards into suits but into high card order.
  #958  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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In response to several people, it was dealt by dealing machine in the local club duplicate.
  #959  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:25 PM
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What a hand! How can 7H down one give a better score than 7D making?
It can't, of course. I was referring to the likely result, based on percentages, that you would get if you played the hand a gazillion times. Ignoring first trick ruffs, 7H is 90% and 7D 100% I looked at what was actually bid at all the tables in play. I took the actual matchpoints achieved by bidding 7H and 7D and multiplied by 10%, as that is the frequency of 7H down/7D make. Then I calculated the matchpoints each contract would score if 7H is making, and multiplied that by 90%. Then add the two together and that is the score you would expect on average on this hand by bidding 7H or 7D.
  #960  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:26 PM
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And how do you get to 7D? Would 2C - 2D - 2H - 2N - 3D - 5D - 7D be a reasonable sequence?
Yes.
  #961  
Old 02-15-2019, 06:02 PM
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And fresh from today's club game, dealt by the same dealing machine as the hand I posted earlier: void void AQJxxxx A10xxxx. Partner opens 1C (3+ clubs), RHO bids 2H, weak. Your call.
  #962  
Old 02-15-2019, 07:42 PM
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Someone's obviously having fun with the settings on the dealing machine.

1C is better minor, right? The danger is LHO will bid not 4H but 5H. So I'll bite the bullet and bid 5C. We may miss a slam but a direct raise of partner's suit is usually a weak bid so may induce LHO to pass.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:10 PM
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I'd get the diamonds off my chest early, so 3D. Not fond of a heart cue bid - misses a chance to show your very good diamond suit. And LHO could stick his nose in by raising hearts.

Partner's rebids:
3H - asking for a stopper?
3S - natural, most likely 4 card suit, though could be 5
3NT - heart stopper. So, a wasted honour.

Over all of these I bid 4C

Less likely rebids over my 3D:
4C - can't support diamonds and can't bid spades or NT. Five clubs or better.
4D - not interested in NT and having a diamond holding of Kx or better.

The problem with this hand is that you have first round controls in all four suits. How do you show that when the opponents are wasting bidding space? You can't. I think at some point you just bid 6C.

To get to 7C a scenario might be:

Code:
1C  2H  3D  4H
P   P   6C  P
P   6H  P*  P   
7C
* forcing pass

and partner bid 7C with:
S: Axxx
H: xxx
D: Kx,
C: KQJx
  #964  
Old 02-16-2019, 04:53 AM
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The problem there is that you are playing better minor and partner may have xxx in clubs. You are 7-6 in the minors and have a known 9 card fit. There's no way of letting partner know your diamonds suit is 7 long. So go for the 60% score.

And I'd open 1N on K364's putative hand.
  #965  
Old 02-17-2019, 05:26 PM
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At our table (I was the 2H bidder) responder chose 3H. I agree with K364 that he should bid 3D. Over 3H it went Pass - 3S - Pass - 4C all pass. Plus 3. Responder thought 4C was forcing, opener did not.

At another table responder bid 5NT, grand slam force, over 2H and partner bid 7C. He reckoned he had two chances - partner had KD or the finesse worked. I am not sure the finesse is too likely through the 2H bidder.

Quartz - bidding 5C gets you 29%

Opener had AJxx 109x Kxx KQx

Last edited by amarone; 02-17-2019 at 05:27 PM.
  #966  
Old 02-17-2019, 06:50 PM
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amarone I'm curious why your partner stayed out of the auction holding (presumably) four hearts. Unfavourable vulnerability? Anyway, turned out very well with the bone-head pass of 4C.
  #967  
Old 02-17-2019, 11:24 PM
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amarone I'm curious why your partner stayed out of the auction holding (presumably) four hearts. Unfavourable vulnerability? Anyway, turned out very well with the bone-head pass of 4C.
She held AJxx of hearts, nobody vulnerable. She normally bids aggressively, but thought on this hand that bidding might push them into a making slam.
  #968  
Old 02-18-2019, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
Quartz - bidding 5C gets you 29%
Remember that partner can bid on.

Quote:
Opener had AJxx 109x Kxx KQx
I'd open 1N on that, with the bidding going 1N - 3D - 3H - 5C (showing massive 2-suiter) - 6D - 7D
  #969  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:50 AM
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Remember that partner can bid on.
But is not going to with a 4333 minimum and no control of opponents' suit. Grand is cold opposite the right 6-count. You need to do more than just bid game.

Quote:
I'd open 1N on that, with the bidding going 1N - 3D - 3H - 5C (showing massive 2-suiter) - 6D - 7D
They play a 15-17 NT. A lot of people here play 1N - 3D as a game forcing minor 2-suiter, so that would be even better.
  #970  
Old 02-18-2019, 07:16 AM
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Hereabouts a jump in the minor over 1N is a slam exploration bid, because 3N is almost always preferable to a minor suit game.

Last edited by Quartz; 02-18-2019 at 07:17 AM.
  #971  
Old 02-19-2019, 07:22 AM
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Hereabouts a jump in the minor over 1N is a slam exploration bid, because 3N is almost always preferable to a minor suit game.
With my partners we would transfer to the minor first (2S = clubs, 2NT = diamonds).
  #972  
Old 02-19-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by amarone View Post
With my partners we would transfer to the minor first (2S = clubs, 2NT = diamonds).
With one of my partners we play 2S as a transfer to both minors with opener bidding 3C and then responder correcting. This is a weak bid. 2NT is normally an invitational bid for 3NT, so how do you end up in 2NT?
  #973  
Old 02-19-2019, 09:19 AM
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With one of my partners we play 2S as a transfer to both minors with opener bidding 3C and then responder correcting. This is a weak bid. 2NT is normally an invitational bid for 3NT, so how do you end up in 2NT?
A benefit of playing separate transfers is that there is room for opener to show whether they like the suit without boosting the level. So after 1NT - 2S, for example, you can play one of 2NT/3C as "I like clubs", and the other "I don't like clubs". If responder bids a suit after the transfer, it shows shortage in that suit.

We get to 2NT via Stayman. 1NT - 2C - 2D/S - 2NT = invitational, says nothing about majors. (1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT does deny spades as you bid 2S with an invitational hand with 4 spades).
  #974  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:59 AM
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New at this, wondering how I should have bid this hand: Qxx, AKJ, K, AQxxxx. I opened 1C, which says 2 or more. Partner answered 1H, promising 4, opponent jumped in with 2D. What do I say now?

I went 2H, everyone passed. Partner had 5 hearts and we made 11 tricks. We should have been in game but I don't know how to get there.
  #975  
Old 02-25-2019, 06:05 AM
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I'm torn between bidding 3C - showing your club suit to be genuine - and bidding 3D. If RHO had not bid I would have jumped to 3C.

But with 19 HCP and a good 6 card suit I would have opened 2C on that hand. I use the Devalued 2C system. Open 2C, rebid is 3C, indicating a strong 2 in clubs. So the bidding would have gone 2C - 2D (or 2H) - 3C - 3H - 4H. Then possibly Blackwood.

Last edited by Quartz; 02-25-2019 at 06:08 AM.
  #976  
Old 02-25-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Weedy View Post
New at this, wondering how I should have bid this hand: Qxx, AKJ, K, AQxxxx. I opened 1C, which says 2 or more. Partner answered 1H, promising 4, opponent jumped in with 2D. What do I say now?

I went 2H, everyone passed. Partner had 5 hearts and we made 11 tricks. We should have been in game but I don't know how to get there.
I play support doubles in which a double of opponents' suit by opener shows exactly 3-card support for responder's suit - perfect for this hand. Without that, I'm not exactly sure - either 3D or 3H. 3H would normally show 4 cards, but even if you end up in a 4-3 fit, you will be ruffing in the short hand and your trumps are so strong that even Q10xx in partner's hand gives you control of the suit.
  #977  
Old 02-25-2019, 03:45 PM
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Thanks, interesting. What would the the 3D bids mean?
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:42 PM
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3D would be a generic forcing bid - tell me more about your hand.
  #979  
Old 02-27-2019, 03:17 AM
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PIcked up a rock-crusher in a teams match last night -

AKQJxx
Kx
K
AKQx

Bidding opened 1H on your left, pass pass to you. How would you handle this beast? If you double it will go pass and then 2D by partner back to you.
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Old 02-27-2019, 04:16 AM
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Just bid 4S. You LHO can be expected to have 13 HCP and you have 25 HCP. That leaves 2 HCP for partner and RHO - no room for any aces.
  #981  
Old 02-27-2019, 05:32 AM
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Just bid 4S. You LHO can be expected to have 13 HCP and you have 25 HCP. That leaves 2 HCP for partner and RHO - no room for any aces.
LHO is not expected to have 13 HCP, he's a decent player who knows when to open a shapely ten count.
4S seems fine to me in duplicate, but a teams game I don't think you can give up on this hand so readily, could swing the match.
  #982  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
LHO is not expected to have 13 HCP, he's a decent player who knows when to open a shapely ten count.
So do I, but I used expected in the proper sense. And LHO could have all the remaining 15 HCP. Even if LHO opened on 10, that leaves a whole 5 points between the other two hands. Remember that for a slam to make not only do you need your partner to have an ace but you need some way of getting to it. The ace of hearts is no problem but what if it were the ace of diamonds?

Quote:
4S seems fine to me in duplicate, but a teams game I don't think you can give up on this hand so readily, could swing the match.
4S may well go one down.

After partner's diamond response to your double, a brave alternative would be 3N.
  #983  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:12 AM
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This hand is from the current Bronze level bidding contest:

♠ AK532
5
-
♣ AQT8643

You are not vulnerable and playing pairs.

The quiz asks a different question about this hand, but my question is, how would you open this hand? How would you plan the bidding?

I think I'd open 2C! Yes, despite only having 13 HCP: I cannot afford for partner to pass. Over a 2D or 2H or 2N response I rebid 3C, indicating the Devalued 2C. After a 2S or 3C response I bid 5D - Voidwood.
  #984  
Old 02-27-2019, 11:40 AM
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Has someone been tampering with all the shuffling machines? (Or maybe we really have passed through a membrane into an alternate reality.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
AKQJxx
Kx
K
AKQx

Bidding opened 1H on your left ...
I'll bid 2H if that's strong and artificial and then 3S over 3D if that's forcing. That you ask us makes me suspect partner did have an Ace, but how can I try for it without a big risk of playing 5S down 1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
♠ AK532
5
-
♣ AQT8643

... my question is, how would you open this hand? How would you plan the bidding?
With the opponents having high cards and distribution the risk of One Club being passed out is negligible. I bid Two Spades on the next round (and perhaps Three Spades next). Partner already has an idea what I have. If I make an artificial opening bid, we'll be at the 4-level with less clarity. The opponents are likely to have shapely hands and compete, making an artificial sequence even less informative.
  #985  
Old 02-27-2019, 01:09 PM
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If you open 1C you're likely to get overcalled and you may find yourself at the 4 or 5 level the next time you bid. E.g. 1C - 1H - P - 4H - now what? Are you going to bid 4S or 5C? An opening 2C bid may shut the opponents up.
  #986  
Old 02-27-2019, 02:42 PM
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I don't know what your 2C followed by 3C means. Does 2C show clubs?

I want to tell partner I have clubs and spades, and I want to do that ASAP. I'll start by bidding my longer suit naturally.

ETA: IIRC many pairs have a system for interfering over 2C (e.g. a system to show 2-suiters). Opening an artificial 2C encourages these pairs to obstruct.

Last edited by septimus; 02-27-2019 at 02:45 PM.
  #987  
Old 02-27-2019, 05:39 PM
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Has someone been tampering with all the shuffling machines? (Or maybe we really have passed through a membrane into an alternate reality.)
I'll bid 2H if that's strong and artificial and then 3S over 3D if that's forcing. That you ask us makes me suspect partner did have an Ace, but how can I try for it without a big risk of playing 5S down 1?
Partner had next to nowt - void - 4-5-4 [clubs meant 4S makes despite a 2-5 spade split].
That wasn't the problem, though - it was passing me out after 2D - 3S. I stood up to try and defenestrate him, but he's a big bloke and we were playing on the ground floor, so it hardly seemed worth it.
Looking at it with a calmer head I can see I've given him an unplatable choice but he can't pass there IMO after double and jump bid.

Only 6imps lost (non vuln) - wasn't the worst score of the night.
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Old 02-27-2019, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
PIcked up a rock-crusher in a teams match last night -

AKQJxx
Kx
K
AKQx

Bidding opened 1H on your left, pass pass to you. How would you handle this beast? If you double it will go pass and then 2D by partner back to you.
Double then bid 4S. This shows a mountain, as opposed to 4S immediately, which would be a ton of playing tricks but not so many values.

It is just about conceivable that you have slam on, if LHO has opened on 11 and partner has an ace, but a) that is very unlikely, b) if it is AD you need to get to it (10S?), and c) you still might have a club loser.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
This hand is from the current Bronze level bidding contest:

♠ AK532
5
-
♣ AQT8643

You are not vulnerable and playing pairs.

The quiz asks a different question about this hand, but my question is, how would you open this hand? How would you plan the bidding?
Open 1C and bid spades at my next turn, even if that means bidding 4S. 1C is not going to be passed out. Yes, opponents might preempt you but if you open 2C you preempt yourself. 2C - 2D - 3C - 3NT oops. Now we have to bid 4S to show our hand in an uncontested auction.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
Open 1C and bid spades at my next turn, even if that means bidding 4S. 1C is not going to be passed out. Yes, opponents might preempt you but if you open 2C you preempt yourself. 2C - 2D - 3C - 3NT oops. Now we have to bid 4S to show our hand in an uncontested auction.
If partner bids 3N we don't want to be in 4S. If partner has a poor hand she'll pass 3C (it's a Devalued 2C, remember, so passing is allowed).
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:20 PM
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And now for what could be a record. Has anyone else ever gone 7-down on the last board on two successive weeks?

Last Wednesday my partner opened 1S. I bid 4S, preemptive, with a weak hand with 5 spades. Nevertheless, he wheeled out RKCB. Disappointed with my 5D response (0 or 3 key cards), he decided we did not have slam on and... passed.

RHO declined my request to lead out of turn so I could choose the option of making partner play it. So I decided I did not want to play it out and offered 6 down. RHO refused so I upped (lowered?) the ante to 7 down and she accepted. A zero is a zero.

Today I held AQJ10xxx Axx Qx x. RHO opened 1D. I bid 1S, 2C from lefty, 2S from partner and 3C on my right. At this point a 3S bid is purely competitive but I wanted to make a game try - only 3D and 3H were available. I chose 3H to show where my values were and everybody passed. Partner had Kxx Qxxx xxx xxx. I tried for a heart layout of Kxx onside, in which case I would go down one and tie everyone in 4S. When they were 4-2 offside, opponents drew trumps and cashed out. Surprisingly, this was not a zero - we got 12% I could have held it to 4 down and got 25%
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
If partner bids 3N we don't want to be in 4S. If partner has a poor hand she'll pass 3C (it's a Devalued 2C, remember, so passing is allowed).
I have not heard of the Devalued 2C. I assume it was invented after I stopped playing in the UK (1986). I was answering as if 2C had the original Acol meaning or the strong 2C from Standard American/2 over 1.
  #993  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amarone View Post
Last Wednesday my partner opened 1S. I bid 4S, preemptive, with a weak hand with 5 spades. Nevertheless, he wheeled out RKCB. Disappointed with my 5D response (0 or 3 key cards), he decided we did not have slam on and... passed.
Ouch. I had something similar happen to me. I think I mentioned it upthread, but after my initial pass, partner opened 1 of a major and I splintered with 4C. She bid 4N and I bid 5C - no aces. She passed. We played in a 2-1 fit.

Quote:
Today I held AQJ10xxx Axx Qx x. RHO opened 1D. I bid 1S, 2C from lefty, 2S from partner and 3C on my right. At this point a 3S bid is purely competitive but I wanted to make a game try - only 3D and 3H were available. I chose 3H to show where my values were and everybody passed.
Oh dear, but this time partner can be said to be showing suit preference. Surely you can bid straight to 4 on that hand? You have seven spades and partner has shown three so you have ten between you.
  #994  
Old 02-27-2019, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Oh dear, but this time partner can be said to be showing suit preference. Surely you can bid straight to 4 on that hand? You have seven spades and partner has shown three so you have ten between you.
Assuming you are referring to the Law of Total Tricks, it tends to break down the higher you get. On this hand, if you bid 4S and they don't double, you get an average. If they double, you get a near bottom for -300. If you can stop in 3S, you get a near top.
  #995  
Old 02-27-2019, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
Ouch. I had something similar happen to me. I think I mentioned it upthread, but after my initial pass, partner opened 1 of a major and I splintered with 4C. She bid 4N and I bid 5C - no aces. She passed. We played in a 2-1 fit.
I've twice played in a 2-0 fit. Once was a Splinter to 4H after a 1S opening and partner passed. The other time was a pass of a 4H Texas Transfer. Ahh well.

The best thing that happened the other way was when I opened 2C (artificial strong) and partner responded 2H (controls showing one A or two Ks). I alerted and bid 4H. Even though I alerted partner said "failure to alert" and explained his bid. I chuckled and said, I did alert, but don't worry I have good support for your hearts. After the opening lead I put down

x
AKQJTxxx
xx
Ax

Best support of a trump suit I've ever put down
  #996  
Old 02-28-2019, 01:14 AM
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I've never thought doubling then jumping was a force. Especially if
(a) the double was in the balancing (pass-out) position;
(b) a strong cue-bid was available on the first round.
Doubler may bid on the assumption that partner has about 3 hcp. If partner has zero instead, he'll think 3S is already too high.

I've told my partner I don't want to play Michaels Q anymore. Instead I want to be able to bid without ambiguity on very big hands.
  #997  
Old 02-28-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by amarone View Post
I have not heard of the Devalued 2C.
Think of it as a limited form of Benji.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:17 AM
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I've never thought doubling then jumping was a force. Especially if
(a) the double was in the balancing (pass-out) position;
(b) a strong cue-bid was available on the first round.
Doubler may bid on the assumption that partner has about 3 hcp. If partner has zero instead, he'll think 3S is already too high.

I've told my partner I don't want to play Michaels Q anymore. Instead I want to be able to bid without ambiguity on very big hands.
Think Michaels (and a lot of other conventions) only works if you're in a partnership that is prepared to sit down and discuss detailed follow-ups. Certainly just agreeing something like Michaels, split range, and that's it will cause more problems than it solves.

That's a problem for me at the minute - my main partner has great fundamentals but basically no interest in detailed bidding agreements, but I do. So we may have to go our separate ways [not talking about a complex system, more a simple system that is very deeply understood]. It's not even about playing better bridge for me, more that I'd find it interesting and keeps the game fresh.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:27 AM
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I've never thought doubling then jumping was a force.
It isn't, generally. I say "generally" because of course you and your partner can agree whatever you want.
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Old 03-04-2019, 02:05 PM
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Since we seem to be talking about big hands, I ran into one today that was the biggest I've see in a while.

Second in hand, even vulnerability, you pick up S:AJx H:AKQJ D:KJxx C:AK
Unfortunately, just as you're contemplating your rebid after 2C-2D, dealer pre-empts with 3C. Now what?
(If you double, partner bids 3D)
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