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  #1  
Old 02-12-2012, 05:09 PM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Open the US/Canada border fully

Imagine that the US and Canada open the border completely, taking down all checkpoints and letting people move across freely, such as is possible in the Schengen area in Europe.

Would the world end in a blaze of explosions? Would anyone sit back and say "dernit, I wish they had never torn down this border, because all them Canadians can come over without passing through Customs and cause trouble."?
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:14 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I think it's a great idea. We might have to make a few adjustments to make it happen, but whatever those are, we should be doing them, now. I'm afraid the Canadians might not be too keen on what we'd ask them to do concerning border control for people entering from countries other than the US, though. I wouldn't blame them.

I'd go further and advocate for an Anglo-sphere free trading and travel block (including Australia, the UK and New Zealand). We did some thread on this a few years back.

Last edited by John Mace; 02-12-2012 at 05:15 PM.
  #3  
Old 02-12-2012, 05:33 PM
Omg a Black Conservative Omg a Black Conservative is offline
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I suspect there's some kind of underlying motive here as it relates to Mexico/Hispanic nations.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:37 PM
florez florez is offline
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Originally Posted by Omg a Black Conservative View Post
I suspect there's some kind of underlying motive here as it relates to Mexico/Hispanic nations.



OMG, Is it possible, we agree on something?
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:37 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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And that would be what, exactly?
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:38 PM
florez florez is offline
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Anglo-sphere free world trading?
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:39 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by Omg a Black Conservative View Post
I suspect there's some kind of underlying motive here as it relates to Mexico/Hispanic nations.
Well, let's wait until someone brings that up to worry about that.

I would not support opening the border with Mexico simply because our economies are so different. The issue of a language barrier is problematic, too, but of lesser concern.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:40 PM
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But opening the border would mean an end to ever so pleasurable government funded prostate massages.
  #9  
Old 02-12-2012, 05:57 PM
levdrakon levdrakon is offline
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I'd be all for it, but I have a feeling some of our Canadian Dopers won't be that keen on it. To be honest, I'd feel a little bad myself inflicting some of my neighbors on hapless Canadians.

I'd vote for it though.
  #10  
Old 02-12-2012, 06:12 PM
RickJay RickJay is online now
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The border is effectively open as it is. The truth is that Canada / USA border control is, for most people, nothing more than a huge hassle that holds them up from conducting peaceful and lawful business, and anyone who's serious and competent about conducting malfeasance can get around border controls with ridiculous ease.
  #11  
Old 02-12-2012, 06:40 PM
Terr Terr is offline
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If you open US/Canadian border completely, you lose control over what/who enters the US and under what conditions. For example see http://www.usitc.gov/tata/hts/bychapter/index.htm - let's say for some of these things Canadian rates are a lot lower. So you import into Canada then move it over to the US.
  #12  
Old 02-12-2012, 06:57 PM
orcenio orcenio is offline
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Any grand opening of the Canada-US would be seen by Canadians as a complete surrendering of our sovereignty (up here, we're obsessed with this issue). It'd also be the start of Canada's complete dissolution and the addition of eight new stars on the American flag. I say eight cuz, PEI would probably not be given statehood and if Canada did this, Quebec would be the province with the biggest bone to pick, why would they join such an "Anglo-sphere" creation?

Last edited by orcenio; 02-12-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:10 PM
jackdavinci jackdavinci is offline
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This was pretty much the norm until recently. Sure there were crosspoints but about all they did is ask if you had bad fruit on you. Or did you mean more of an EU sort of thing where one could also freely work and reside?
  #14  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:27 PM
RickJay RickJay is online now
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Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
Any grand opening of the Canada-US would be seen by Canadians as a complete surrendering of our sovereignty (up here, we're obsessed with this issue). It'd also be the start of Canada's complete dissolution and the addition of eight new stars on the American flag.
They said that about the 1988 Free Trade Agreement. They were wrong.

An open border is not a surrender of sovereignty; again, we have an open border as it is, and have for a century, at least. It's cost us no sovereignty.

Last edited by RickJay; 02-12-2012 at 07:27 PM.
  #15  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:38 PM
Ike Witt Ike Witt is offline
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I thought there was a push in the US to tighten the border with Canada. Like drones and cameras everywhere. It seems the US isn't a big fan of all the ecstasy and marijuana that is currently crossing the border.
  #16  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:00 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Would we have to start being really nice? Not sure that would go over very well.
  #17  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:03 PM
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Canadian's would not be happy to see guns flood into their country, which an open border would certainly cause. We're not keen to emulate your attitude to guns.

They'd never go for it, in my opinion.
  #18  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:16 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Why would guns flood over the border?
  #19  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:35 PM
orcenio orcenio is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
Why would guns flood over the border?
Osmosis? Seasonal migration?

Last edited by orcenio; 02-12-2012 at 08:38 PM.
  #20  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:43 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
Canadian's would not be happy to see guns flood into their country, which an open border would certainly cause. We're not keen to emulate your attitude to guns.

They'd never go for it, in my opinion.
Well, we have lots of guns already. I daresay the American attitude hasn't snuck across despite decades of being exposed to the television and movies, so I don't see why an open border might.
  #21  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:53 PM
Spoons Spoons is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
Why would guns flood over the border?
Because it is far easier to obtain a gun in the US than in Canada. Depending on the firearm desired, Canada requires courses to be taken, paperwork to be filled out, permits to be issued, memberships in gun clubs and recommendations from range officers, and similar hoops to jump through. The idea that Canadians could go to the US, buy a gun without all the above fuss, and bring it home; means that guns would flood across the border. Or, at the very least, end up in the hands of Canadians who perhaps ought not to have them.

As Bryan notes, we do have plenty of guns already, but I'd suggest that the controls that are in place keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them, and the misuse of firearms lower than in the US.
  #22  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:05 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Heh-heh-heh . . . Today the open border, tomorrow the Amero . . .
  #23  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:38 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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I have a few problems with the concept that "guns would flood over the border" due to "opening" the US/Canadian border. (Something I'm not in favor of, by the way.)

Firstly, I contest the notion that tons of Canadians who shouldn't have guns would suddenly have guns just because the border was opened. Right now it would be laughably easy for a Canadian to drive across the border, buy a gun, and drive it right back over. That's without doing anything to actively hide the gun. There is a substantial chance you could make that journey and not get caught at all.

If there were so many Canadians who shouldn't have guns who would suddenly be flooding into the U.S. to buy them and bring them back into Canada then Canada would have a massive market for black market guns. How big is the Canadian market for black market guns? I ask, because if you look down south we have another neighbor with restrictive gun control laws and a massive demand for black market guns. Such a scenario creates "profit incentive" for smuggling, and thus tons of very professional smugglers smuggle guns across the U.S.-Mexican border every year. Some get caught, but most do not, because the border is so large and impossible to patrol effectively. In Canada, where the border is even less secure, we don't have a lot of major gun smuggling operations (at least that I've ever heard.) That suggests to me Canada does not have the same demand for guns that Mexico does.

I've already touched on it, but assuming the demand was there and somehow the closed border stops Canada from being flooded with illegal guns just defies logic. The U.S.-Canadian border is not secure enough in its "not fully opened" state to protect Canada or the United States against substantial smuggling. Some smuggling does of course happen, and obviously the border is monitored and guarded but to such a lax degree as to be laughable. The current border situation does absolutely nothing to stop the flow of guns into Canada so I find it ludicrous that liberalizing the border controls would suddenly result in a massive influx of guns.

So basically: 1. I see no evidence of the demand for American guns, 2. No smuggling right now is really going on, 3. The border itself is not well guarded on either side so if smuggling was desired it'd be happening.
  #24  
Old 02-12-2012, 11:20 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Originally Posted by Ike Witt
It seems the US isn't a big fan of all the ecstasy and marijuana that is currently crossing the border.
Depends on who you ask.
  #25  
Old 02-12-2012, 11:36 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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So basically: 1. I see no evidence of the demand for American guns, 2. No smuggling right now is really going on, 3. The border itself is not well guarded on either side so if smuggling was desired it'd be happening.
Perhaps you should, you know, do some research? Googling "smuggling guns into Canada" brings up an RCMP report on this very topic: Current Trends in Firearms Trafficking and Smuggling into Canada, which has the following interesting information:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMP
The United States is the primary source for smuggled firearms or firearms parts into Canada -- due in part to its close proximity, differences in gun control legislation, and a large firearms manufacturing base. According to the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA), in 2006, 96 per cent of all firearms seized originated in or transited through the United States. The majority of these seizures occurred at land border ports of entry, and were from private and/or commercial vehicles of legitimate U.S. travelers, especially hunters and truckers, who failed to declare these firearms. In addition, in 2006 there were 32 firearms seized between ports of entry, as compared to 12 in 2005. CBSA also reported a small quantity of guns being smuggled into Canada from various other countries, including Belgium, Switzerland, Georgia and China and Hong Kong.
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Originally Posted by RCMP
There continues to be significant cross-border firearms movement, particularly in British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, and the Atlantic region, where many of the seizures are concentrated.
• In British Columbia, a large number of firearms originate in the United States, with a high proportion coming from Washington State.

•In Alberta, most of these firearms come from Washington State, Idaho and California.

•In Ontario, the I-75 corridor is the main supply vein for illegal firearms from Florida, Georgia, Ohio and Michigan.

•In Quebec, the following states are key sources for illegal firearms: Vermont, New Hampshire and Maryland.

•There is an increasing number of illegal firearms reported being smuggled across the New Brunswick-Maine border, entering the Atlantic region.
Most firearms smuggled from the United States are high quality, semi-automatic handguns. Handguns are reportedly commonly traded for narcotics on the street: the price of the handgun correlates with the current street price for the specific narcotic. “High end” handguns are presently selling on the street for three times the retail price. Fully automatic rifles are also highly sought after firearms. Recent seizures have seen a marked increase in assault rifles and fully automatic submachine guns.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:43 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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32 firearms? Gadzooks! We're being swamped!
  #27  
Old 02-13-2012, 12:09 AM
Kolak of Twilo Kolak of Twilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
32 firearms? Gadzooks! We're being swamped!
If you were to click the link and scroll down a bit you would see the chart that says the number of guns seized during the first three quarters of 2007 was 3851.
From the previous mentioned link:
Quote:
The majority of seizures occur at land border ports of entry where the firearms are either concealed in hidden compartments in personal vehicles or duct-taped to the body. However, the occasional seizure does take place in the postal system, which is commonly used by smugglers to ship disassembled firearms or firearms parts which are not considered under Canadian legislation as firearms.
The 32 guns you mention were seized between points of entry, just like the quote from Northern Piper says.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:21 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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I ain't got time to scroll.


But in any case, there's been no uptick in gun-related crime in Canada that I'm aware of, and the use of automatic weapons for crime is still vanishingly rare, so if these smuggled weapons are having any effect beyond the satisfaction of the people collecting them, I'm not sure what it is.
  #29  
Old 02-13-2012, 12:39 AM
Spoons Spoons is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
I've already touched on it, but assuming the demand was there and somehow the closed border stops Canada from being flooded with illegal guns just defies logic. The U.S.-Canadian border is not secure enough in its "not fully opened" state to protect Canada or the United States against substantial smuggling. Some smuggling does of course happen, and obviously the border is monitored and guarded but to such a lax degree as to be laughable. The current border situation does absolutely nothing to stop the flow of guns into Canada so I find it ludicrous that liberalizing the border controls would suddenly result in a massive influx of guns.
Let's look at a few examples from my neck of the woods:

Lethbridge Man Sentenced to Seven Years for Attempted Gun Smuggling

Lethbridge Woman Sentenced in Gun Smuggling Case

Former Lethbridge officer charged with gun-trafficking

And these were the ones who got caught here in southern Alberta, so the current border situation does something, contrary to your assertion. Note that I cannot speak for other parts of Canada. At any rate, there is obviously a demand for firearms that have not been sold through regular channels with all legalities observed.
  #30  
Old 02-13-2012, 07:20 AM
Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party is offline
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I'd go further and advocate for an Anglo-sphere free trading and travel block (including Australia, the UK and New Zealand). We did some thread on this a few years back.
I think that membership of the EU precludes the UK from agreeing to any other free trade agreements unilaterally. This is one of the biggest bones of contention of British euroskeptics who would want to see much closer integration between the UK and other Anglophone countries on trade, and which they see as an opportunity cost of being an EU member.
  #31  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:05 AM
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Is India an "Anglophone" nation? More people speak English there than just about anyplace else.
  #32  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:09 AM
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Come to think of it, this summer will be our 200th anniversary of the start of the last war we fought against each other.

Last edited by Muffin; 02-13-2012 at 10:09 AM.
  #33  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:09 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I think that membership of the EU precludes the UK from agreeing to any other free trade agreements unilaterally. This is one of the biggest bones of contention of British euroskeptics who would want to see much closer integration between the UK and other Anglophone countries on trade, and which they see as an opportunity cost of being an EU member.
Yeah, I know that and should have mentioned it. If we link up with the UK we effectively link up with every country in the EU. And I'm pretty sure Oz and NZ are economically linked to some small Pacific Island nations that we wouldn't be too keen on, either.

As fore India, it doesn't matter about the absolute number, but the percentage of English Speakers. And all the other economies I mentioned are developed economies. Mexico is more developed than India is, as a whole.
  #34  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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I don't think any of the stuff you guys just linked to disproves my assertions. A few thousand guns between a country of 300 million and a country of 30 million is honestly nothing. As one of the cites suggests there are probably far greater smuggling from hunters who forget or fail to declare (and the fact that they admit that pretty much shows it's not exactly 007 style subterfuge to get a gun across the Canadian border...professional smuggling operations using ATVs on back wood trails would be almost impossible to truly hinder.)

I honestly don't think you guys have made a compelling argument.

You've not shown that there is very significant smuggling now (a little under 4,000 guns.) The fact that some people have been arrested and some guns have been smuggled simply does not prove much of anything. Compare it to Mexico, where the number of smuggled guns is far higher (as are arrests), yet the border arrests on the U.S./Mexico border has done virtually nothing to limit the supply of guns in Mexico.

What is instead obvious to me is there aren't massive criminal operations or massive demand for black market firearms in Canada. If there was, smuggling would be far more prevalent. The far more draconian border patrols and check points on our southern border have not effectively stopped or even significantly hampered the flow of guns to Mexico, so pointing to a few arrests doesn't really convince me at all that if tons of people wanted guns in Canada they couldn't be getting them already.

I suspect this is because (luckily for Canada) you don't have massive criminal operations. The legitimate gun owners of Canada have means of getting them, and little desire or need to smuggle them in.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:21 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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I daresay the smuggling of untaxed cigarettes will be of greater concern than guns.
  #36  
Old 02-13-2012, 03:47 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Actually, on serious further reflection, my biggest concern about greater financial integration is that our stable reliable banking system could get fucked up by the Americans' wild-west version, which is prone (indeed eager) to destroy itself every 25 years. We could end up being the sane Germany to your spendthrift Greece, and we don't have nearly enough money to save you from yourselves.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:02 PM
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Hmm. So, how much money do you guys have? Just curious, mind....
  #38  
Old 02-13-2012, 04:12 PM
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Actually, on serious further reflection, my biggest concern about greater financial integration is that our stable reliable banking system could get fucked up by the Americans' wild-west version, which is prone (indeed eager) to destroy itself every 25 years. We could end up being the sane Germany to your spendthrift Greece, and we don't have nearly enough money to save you from yourselves.
Very well said.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:23 PM
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I suspect this is because (luckily for Canada) you don't have massive criminal operations.
Er, um, because we don't allow guns in the hands of every citizen, and we keep our border closed to an influx from the Land Of The Armed. The point is, our gun controls, a feature of Canadian living that Canadian's value very highly, would become next to useless will a fully open border.

Plus, what if we legalize marijuana? Still want that open border? How you gonna sell that in American politics?
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:31 PM
LionelHutz405 LionelHutz405 is offline
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Canadians would stock up on booze and smokes in the U.S. since they cost considerably less.
The Canadian government wouldn't be too keen on losing that tax revenue.
  #41  
Old 02-13-2012, 05:03 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Er, um, because we don't allow guns in the hands of every citizen, and we keep our border closed to an influx from the Land Of The Armed. The point is, our gun controls, a feature of Canadian living that Canadian's value very highly, would become next to useless will a fully open border.

Plus, what if we legalize marijuana? Still want that open border? How you gonna sell that in American politics?
"Still want that open border?" I actually said I don't want an open border. In fact, if you remember, it's the United States that has made the border as restrictive as it is today (which is more restrictive than it was before 9/11.) This is a "hypothetical discussion", I'm not sure any Americans here want a fully open border with Canada.

I want us to be on the same page here. When I said Canada does not have any massive criminal operations, I was talking about Mexican cartel-like organizations. The United States has nothing like that either, and we do let any of our citizens (just about) own firearms. So I find it very unlikely that the reason Canada doesn't have massive criminal organizations that essentially openly war with your military is because of your gun control laws, because America has very different gun control laws than Canada and we don't have anything like Mexican cartels here, either.

I guess I'm still really failing to follow your point. If what you're saying is true, and the only thing stopping Canadians bent on destruction from being armed to the teeth is your gun control laws then why aren't more of these dangerous Canadians buying black market guns or smuggling guns in from the U.S.?

I find it very strange from a Canadian, that you basically distrust your countrymen so much you think that your country would turn into Mexico if there was an open border because you'd suddenly be inundated with guns, and the presence of those guns would instantly make Canadians a more violent people. That just doesn't sound likely to me at all.

If there are really so many bad people in Canada, bad enough to commit gun crimes, I question what would stop such bad people from buying black market guns or just driving south and buying a gun at a gun show or gun store and driving back across the border (knowing the % chance of being caught is low.)

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 02-13-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:01 PM
Spoons Spoons is offline
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I want us to be on the same page here. When I said Canada does not have any massive criminal operations, I was talking about Mexican cartel-like organizations. The United States has nothing like that either, and we do let any of our citizens (just about) own firearms. So I find it very unlikely that the reason Canada doesn't have massive criminal organizations that essentially openly war with your military is because of your gun control laws, because America has very different gun control laws than Canada and we don't have anything like Mexican cartels here, either.
Thanks for clarifying that, Martin. I think we can agree on your point--we have no Mexican cartel-like organizations, nor are we likely to, even if the border was fully open.

I think the difference lies in Canadians' attitudes towards firearms. There are many Canadians who would like to see all guns made illegal, except for police and the military. But here's the kicker: there are also many Canadians--usually gun owners themselves--to whom guns are not weapons. They are sporting goods, used for hunting and target shooting. In rural areas, they may be used to defend livestock from predators; but generally speaking, to Canadian gun owners, a gun is used recreationally; and never to attack anybody or defend oneself.

Contrast this with what seems to be the prevalent attitude in the US: I need a gun to defend myself/my home/my family; with recreational and sporting purposes somewhere behind that. In honesty, we have a few folks who think that way here, but one of the most effective ways I've heard of to make sure that you will never be allowed to own a firearm is to tell the authorities that you need it for self-defense. This may be at total odds with your experience in the US, but it's the way things are here. To us legal and responsible gun owners in Canada, a gun is neither an offensive nor a defensive weapon.

I think what is worrying elbows about your assertion (and elbows, if I'm wrong, please correct me), is that if there was an open border, then Canadians would adopt the American attitude towards firearms, and we'd have a bunch of people obtaining firearms for self-defense, without observing the necessary legalities. There would be no checks to ensure safe storage, no checks to ensure that the prospective owner knew how the firearm worked, and no guarantees that children would be unable to get at a fully-loaded firearm. Who knows what else might happen? It would be a way to keep those pesky religious people off your doorstep, that's for sure. And little Johnny could take care of the schoolyard bully permanently. Note that I'm not saying that these things will happen, but they are the fear that keeps our controls such as they are.

Beyond that though, there are always those who, given the chance, might commit more, and more violent, crimes than they already do. Parking lot bar fights aren't uncommon hereabouts; and it's usually two guys beating each other up over some perceived slight. Now, if one of those guys had a gun in his pickup truck--purely for self-defense, of course--we might not have two guys when the police break up the fight. We'd have one guy and a corpse. Or somebody might seize the opportunity to knock over a liquor store, because now they have the firepower, where before they didn't. Again, these are the fears, not necessarily the reality; but we're not willing to test what the reality might be.

Don't get me wrong--it's not all roses and sunshine. We've had Columbine-like school shootings, and we've had gang wars where innocent kids get caught in the crossfire. I once watched (carefully) a bunch of Russian gangsters have a shootout in the parking lot of my apartment building, years ago. But we'd like to keep these and similar events, to a minimum. Hence, the controls we have.

Quote:
I guess I'm still really failing to follow your point. If what you're saying is true, and the only thing stopping Canadians bent on destruction from being armed to the teeth is your gun control laws then why aren't more of these dangerous Canadians buying black market guns or smuggling guns in from the U.S.?
Those who really want black-market firearms get them. Not always easily or inexpensively, but they get them. Thing is, it still isn't as easy as walking into a store and buying a candy bar; and I'd guess that the intricacies involved in getting a black-market gun are (ironically) as onerous as they are in getting a legal one. Except in the former case, there is no paper trail, no registration, no records of any kind--which is how the purchaser wants it, of course. But it would seem to me that if you don't have the right connections or know the right words to say, you're still not going to get what you want.

In short, we're not worried about Mexican drug cartel-like behaviour; but I'd suggest that we are worried about American-like behaviour. As I said above, firearms are not seen as weapons up here, they are never to be used for self-defense, and they are only to be used for recreational and sporting purposes. If there was an open border, then I can see where a concern would arise that we would become more like Americans in our regard to firearms and their uses.
  #43  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:20 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Spoons I'll be honest that was a decent post that essentially said absolutely nothing. You're essentially positing that the difference between a normal 60 second border stop as we have now for most people who go into Canada and a 0 second border stop in a truly open border would totally change Canadian society. I just find that ludicrous. You're not positing a material flow of arms but a behavioral shift in Canadian society, that is only prevented by brief, typically 60 second or less border stops.

Do you not think that sounds a bit...unlikely?

Or let me phrase it this way:

Is Canadian society so weak that all it would take to be totally altered is removing a few border guards that typically do cursory, sub-60 second, stop and greets of incoming Americans?

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 02-13-2012 at 08:21 PM.
  #44  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:07 PM
Hypnagogic Jerk Hypnagogic Jerk is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
You're essentially positing that the difference between a normal 60 second border stop as we have now for most people who go into Canada and a 0 second border stop in a truly open border would totally change Canadian society.
I don't think that's necessarily his personal opinion, but rather what he believes would be many Canadians' fear. I don't see either why easier access to guns would change Canadians' attitude to them so drastically. But it's true that many Canadians fear they could lose their identity if the barriers between both countries are weakened. This is an expression of this fear.
  #45  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:22 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Originally Posted by orcenio View Post
Any grand opening of the Canada-US would be seen by Canadians as a complete surrendering of our sovereignty (up here, we're obsessed with this issue).
So surrender, already. C'mon, we're two countries as ain't gettin' any younger. Your nights are cold and lonely up there . . . Everybody we know thinks we should . . . Well, 'cept for Gramma Britannia, but she'll adjust . . .

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 02-13-2012 at 09:24 PM.
  #46  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:26 PM
Spoons Spoons is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
Spoons I'll be honest that was a decent post that essentially said absolutely nothing.
Well, I'll admit I got a chuckle out of your reply here to it. Yes, I was rather long-winded about it, wasn't I? Anyway, thanks, Martin; I needed a smile.

Quote:
You're essentially positing that the difference between a normal 60 second border stop as we have now for most people who go into Canada and a 0 second border stop in a truly open border would totally change Canadian society. I just find that ludicrous. You're not positing a material flow of arms but a behavioral shift in Canadian society, that is only prevented by brief, typically 60 second or less border stops.

Do you not think that sounds a bit...unlikely?
If the issue was limited to just firearms, then yes; such a severe behavioral shift is unlikely. I still maintain, though, that there would be some sort of behavioral shift as regards firearms, and it may not be for the better. Like I said, we're not willing to test it.

But firearms are not the only thing that the current border slows down. Drugs, smuggled cigarettes, cheap booze, all manner of goods, and immigrants--yes, Canada is an immigrant destination for both Americans and others who want to come here through the USA. Returning Canadians who have purchased goods abroad that exceed their duty-free allowance and must pay tax on their purchases. And, of course, visiting Americans who have guns in their cars. These, and other things, are what we look for at the border.

The US is concerned about some of these--drugs, for example--but it is not so concerned about some of the others. It is concerned about some things that Canada doesn't have to worry so much about: a land border with a comparatively poorer nation, and people who are looking to wreak terror in the US in the name of a religion (though in fairness, we have had at least one group planning an attempt, cite). In short, your border concerns are not necessarily the same as our border concerns.

But one of our border concerns happens to be guns. No concern to you, but one of many concerns to us. You're right: we're unlikely to form Mexican-like drug cartels, or start shooting Jehovah's Witnesses because they show up on our doorstep. But there would likely be a shift in attitude towards firearms, and that just happens to be one of the number of things that would worry many of us about an open border.
  #47  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:30 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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I thought there was a push in the US to tighten the border with Canada. Like drones and cameras everywhere. It seems the US isn't a big fan of all the ecstasy and marijuana that is currently crossing the border.
Which way?
  #48  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:36 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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It's easy to keep saying the same thing over and over again, but you've offered no compelling reason that an open border would change the way Canadians think.

I can't think like a Canadian, but I can think like an American. I know that regardless of what came from the North in a hypothetical open border, it would not change my opinion on a single political issue.

Anyway, Americans are the ones who want tighter border controls, not Canadians. We are the ones who instituted passport requirements (you guys only instituted the same in response to our actions), because Canada for all its amazing border controls wasn't taking them very seriously in regards to keeping out Islamic terrorists. A bit of hyperbole? Maybe, but the fact is after 9/11 America isn't willing to let the Canadians be responsible for our homeland security, and that is the truth of the situation in any hypothetical open border situation with Canada, it essentially means American borders are only as secure as Canadian borders.

Canada is a fine country, but it's also a country whose military ran out of ammunition in recent years and who essentially embraces and houses Islamic extremists. That isn't a country I want an open border with, so don't be daft and act like Canadian concerns are why we don't have an open border. We'd still be going back and forth without passports if not for American shift in policy.

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 02-13-2012 at 09:36 PM.
  #49  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:40 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Originally Posted by Hypnagogic Jerk View Post
I don't think that's necessarily his personal opinion, but rather what he believes would be many Canadians' fear. I don't see either why easier access to guns would change Canadians' attitude to them so drastically. But it's true that many Canadians fear they could lose their identity if the barriers between both countries are weakened. This is an expression of this fear.
What do we actually mean by, "open borders" does that just mean unmanned border controls or does it mean unlimited two-way immigration.

I can guarantee you that neither country would want unlimited two-way immigration. For one, Canada is a very refugee friendly country, and I have serious concerns about the political ideology of many of those refugees. I worry about them wanting to immigrate to America solely to cause trouble.

I also worry about people from the third world using Canada as an easy means to sneak into the United States.

I don't have any 2011 statistics on immigration, but in 2007 10,000 Americans were accepted as immigrants to Canada while 23,000 Canadians were accepted as immigrants to America, so calling Canada an "immigrant destination" for Americans is only about half as true as the converse.

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 02-13-2012 at 09:41 PM.
  #50  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:42 PM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Which way?
Surprisingly (to me), more marijuana comes from Canada into the US than vice versa, at least as of 2004:

Quote:
Most marijuana trafficking activity is southbound, although it is smuggled in both directions across the border. While Canadian-produced marijuana accounts for only approximately 2% of overall U.S. marijuana seizures at its borders, the two governments are very concerned about an upward trend in seizures, which have increased 259% since 2001.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 02-13-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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