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  #251  
Old 05-27-2017, 10:56 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
Let's be clear -- he didn't come in here to tell us his life has no meaning. He came to tell us that none of our lives have meaning and none of our future children's will, either. Because he knows THE TRUTH and we are all just deluding ourselves.

There may be more than just clinical depression going on here. He seems to think that whether or not life has meaning, or is worth living, is based on some kind of objective criteria. This in itself seems like magical thinking to me. As if the code can be cracked through logic, as if life can be breathed into meaningfulness with some well-reasoned argument. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings, and our orientation toward existence is largely emotional. That is true even if you reject the mental illness paradigm. Logic is a useful tool, but it can't solve existential angst. There is no argument that will make Machinaforce happy because his position isn't based in reason.
Because so far the logic you pose doesn't address antinatalism. There have been like two posters here who know what it is and where I'm coming from.
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  #252  
Old 05-27-2017, 11:17 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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The fact is that antinatalism lists some hard truths out for people. That to be born into the world means you will suffer, perhaps great or small but in some way you will. Considering that there is no logical reason to reproduce it seems ill to visit a chance of great suffering on someone not yet born. We have no moral duty to bring in happy people into the world but we do have one to not bring in those who would suffer.

The other fact is that the people who are born into wealthy countries are lucky that they aren't subjected to the conditions present in less affluent societies. The majority of people live in poverty and our happiness is built on their backs. Everything we enjoy has to come from somewhere. It's truly a privilege to wonder what one wants to do with their life, as many don't get that choice. Additionally there is the fear of death that lurks in most people, never having been born would prevent that as well as much other suffering.

I believe the arguments are called assymetries. When one exists pain is bad and pleasure good, but in regards to potential individuals then the absence of pain is good while the absence of pleasure is not bad. It could also be argued that stopping breeding would prevent others from having to endure the struggle that is live, the pain of desires that don't always come true, and the fleeting nature of this existence.

There is a lot of bad in the world and it's quite easily inflicted, society shields us from a good deal of it but at a cost. Whether its other humans or living beings. The good that is enough to outweigh the bad is hard to find, if any do find it.

It seems like reason is on their side, which is what scares me. That what little that keeps me alive is nothing more than mere survival instinct. It's like you said, the will to live is mostly emotional.
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  #253  
Old 05-28-2017, 12:22 AM
mikecurtis mikecurtis is online now
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Not to throw fire on an already all consuming blaze, but. . .
Now Gloria Steinem is equating having children with climate change

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Listen, what causes climate deprivation is population. If we had not been systematically forcing women to have children they donít want or canít care for over the 500 years of patriarchy, we wouldnít have the climate problems that we have.
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  #254  
Old 05-28-2017, 12:46 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce
We have no moral duty to bring in happy people into the world but we do have one to not bring in those who would suffer.
This is an opinion, and not a fact. Do you understand that? I'm asking because as you construct your argument you're begging questions left and right.

Quote:
When one exists pain is bad and pleasure good, but in regards to potential individuals then the absence of pain is good while the absence of pleasure is not bad.
Begging the question. This might be an opinion you agree with, but it's hardly an unassailable premise. You're treating it as true because you agree with it, not because you're looking at it objectively.

Quote:
It could also be argued that stopping breeding would prevent others from having to endure the struggle that is live, the pain of desires that don't always come true, and the fleeting nature of this existence.
It could also be argued that all that stuff is worth the potential joy in life. Anything can be argued, and it is all subjective opinion. Your feelings about whether or not this is true are completely irrelevant to whether or not it is true (as are mine.)

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The good that is enough to outweigh the bad is hard to find, if any do find it.
You have absolutely no logical basis for drawing this conclusion. You've claimed that the majority opinion is irrelevant but you are appealing to it here, with no evidence.

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It seems like reason is on their side, which is what scares me. That what little that keeps me alive is nothing more than mere survival instinct. It's like you said, the will to live is mostly emotional.
Survival instinct is what keeps all of us alive. I'm sorry, but that's reality. You can't reason someone into wanting or not wanting to live. I sincerely do hope you get the help you need in learning to accept this cold, bleak reality about existence. Some of us manage to find a way through. Will to live, and all that.

As an aside, you've stated in past threads that you don't give a shit about other people. I'm curious why all the sudden you give a shit about people that don't even exist yet?
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  #255  
Old 05-28-2017, 01:11 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Honestly, I think the reason I keep beating my head against this brick wall is that some part of me gets it. I hate that there are no fucking answers. I hate it. It seems like maybe 2% of the people in the world are really preoccupied with this, and I've gotta be one of them. Most people only think about their mortality or life's inherent lack of meaning when they have some life-shattering experience. A lot of people keep that angst safely at bay via religion. (Which I did once too, I know all about it.)

I want very badly for there to be a single, unassailable truth that reveals what we are supposed to do with ourselves on this planet. And as I scream this fact into the void, the universe responds:

Tough shit.

We don't get our answers, except the ones we make. As my man wrote,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzsche
"Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him -- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us -- for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."
When I first read that quote, at the tender age of 18, it scared the shit out of me, but it also exhilarated me.

It's very simple, man, and very hard: We have to become our own gods.

The alternative is a bullet to the brain, and I'll tell you what's kept me alive more often than not: a sense of duty to other people. Not just the ones I love personally, but all the people, I won't fucking cop out on life and leave everyone else behind, with one less person who gives a shit. It's the same reason I won't move to Canada no matter how pear-shaped shit goes in the U.S.

So here's a benevolent argument for child-bearing: You raise kids who also carry that sense of duty, who will alleviate suffering. You make a future with better people in it. You come to that conclusion through a host of assertions about what is morally good, equally subjective as those of Machinaforce, no less true or false, because as far as universal truth goes, buddy, it's just not there.
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  #256  
Old 05-28-2017, 01:39 PM
QuickSilver QuickSilver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
It seems like reason is on their side, which is what scares me. That what little that keeps me alive is nothing more than mere survival instinct. It's like you said, the will to live is mostly emotional.
We all come from non-existence and end up in non-existence. No exceptions. Logic indicates that one tries to make the most of existence while one is able.

Dum vivimus, vivamus.
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