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  #201  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:42 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I don't think there's much in that....I don't see anything for him to gain in releasing them.
(Post shortened with ellipses because that's how the smart guys do it...)

He's not the one who needs to be reassured, we are. Presumably, he already knows, and he'd prefer we didn't. Won't even tell us why. Perhaps it's modesty. Doesn't want to seem like someone flaunting his success. Ya think?

Last edited by elucidator; 03-21-2017 at 01:42 AM.. Reason: Malform follows malfunction
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  #202  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:20 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by HeweyLogan View Post
So do you, right? There's no bases in fact that Trump has lied, misled, or exaggerated his tax returns, are there?

Yet you want to believe.

And regarding Obama and his book promotion.... seriously? Someone's promoting your work as coming from a person born in Kenya and as the author of the book you don't say anything to correct it?

Come now.
Trump had been spreading the birther lie for years, with zero evidence, before someone found that booklet and publicized it. There's no evidence Obama even knew that it existed before that. There was, on the other hand, a mountain of evidence Obama was born in Hawaii.

Trump spread this lie for years with no evidence. Was he so stupid that he believed something with no evidence, or so cynical that he didn't care about spreading a lie?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-21-2017 at 03:21 AM..
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  #203  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:30 AM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Trump spread this lie for years with no evidence. Was he so stupid that he believed something with no evidence, or so cynical that he didn't care about spreading a lie?
Yes.
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  #204  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:12 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
There isn't any uncertainty. The idea that Trump cheated on his taxes is faith-based, and not subject to falsification.

It's the standard approach.
  • Assume that Trump (or Romney, back in 2012) cheated on his taxes.
  • If Trump (or Romney) doesn't prove he didn't, that proves he's guilty of cheating on his taxes.
  • Maddow gets hold of an illegally obtained copy of one of Trump's returns.
  • MS/NBC schedules a whole news program wherein she proves pretty clearly that Trump didn't cheat on his taxes.
  • Repeat the assumption that Trump cheated on his other tax returns, and try again.
This is like a conspiracy theory. The lack of evidence proves there really is a conspiracy. Therefore, the more evidence that is discredited, the more that proves the conspiracy.

Regards,
Shodan
There were very specific suspicions wrt Romney's tax returns.

He released all of them except 2009. That was the year we offered amnesty to people who had been hiding money in swiss bank accounts if they handed over all the interest they earned on that account. Interest rates had been low for a long time.

What Romney was susceptible to was not the revelation that he cheated on his taxes, we had ample proof of his creative tax positions when he ended up with a IRA worth between 20 and 100 million as a result of his valuation of his carried interest in his hedge funds (the tax code does not really incorporate the black scholes model the way it does time value of money). He was susceptible because he might have had a shitload of money in swiss bank accounts.

I don't think Trump cheats on his taxes either. I think the primary revelation would be that he is not as rich as he makes out to be.
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  #205  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:14 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
I'm not sure where there was any claim of cheating on Trump's taxes. The larger concerns are where his income came from, and where he owes money. Without knowing whom he's beholden to, we can't predict where his conflicts lie.

Where'd the accusation of cheating come from?
Why would who you owe money to be on your tax return unless it is a mortgage or a business loan (which would be on his company's returns) how deoes a loan end up on a tax return and frankly if Trump owes you money, he is not the one with a problem.
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  #206  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:18 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by jshore View Post
Absolutely, I think it is entirely within the right...and in fact the obligation...of the press to consult with experts and discuss the various possible reasons why Donald Trump is not releasing his taxes and to continually remind the public of this incredible betrayal of the public trust and why it is so important. No action Donald Trump takes should be discussed without reference to what possible hidden motives he might have that we are not privy to.
Speculating without evidence is exactly the sort of shit that has undermined the credibility of the press. That would indeed be fake news.

If you saw a movie where a journalist started writing news about what somebody might be hiding by not telling the journalist everything they want to know, you would think that was a slimy journalist.

What betrayal? Not sharing his tax returns? Sure its been custom for a few decades now but its not really followed rigorously and it was never really an issue until Nixon got accused of cheating on his taxes.

Speculating on conspiracy theories is for tabloids not journalists.
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  #207  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:23 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by HeweyLogan View Post
I don't know if he, personally, ever said that, but his surrogates did.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...rs/booklet.asp.
I don't think you are using the term surrogate correctly.
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  #208  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:27 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by HeweyLogan View Post
You tell me. You apparently have a better grasp of the history of the United States. When did we first start paying taxes, and how does that jibe with what I said?
The income tax wasn't imposed until 1913.
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  #209  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:32 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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I don't know if there is anything interesting in Trump's tax returns. I do know he repeatedly promised to release them "when the audit was over." And then. after the election, he said that was all a lie. He's one lying motherfucker.

Quote:
“I don’t mind releasing,” he said during his first president debate with Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton. “I’m under a routine audit. And it’ll be released. And as soon as the audit’s finished, it will be released.”
Quote:
“He’s not going to release his tax returns. We litigated this all through the election. People didn’t care,” White House advisor Kellyanne Conway said on ABC, two days after Trump took the oath of office.
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  #210  
Old 03-21-2017, 11:25 AM
SingleMalt SingleMalt is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Why would who you owe money to be on your tax return unless it is a mortgage or a business loan (which would be on his company's returns) how deoes a loan end up on a tax return and frankly if Trump owes you money, he is not the one with a problem.
Since Trump's business is privately held, I have no problem with him submitting his business tax returns for review, as well.
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  #211  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:11 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by HeweyLogan View Post
Are you saying that Hillary is a credible source for ANYTHING?
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  #212  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:22 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
Since Trump's business is privately held, I have no problem with him submitting his business tax returns for review, as well.
Is THAT now customary? Or are we just piling on because... wtf why not?

Why not have him release all his medical records and the court transcripts of his divorces as well?

And wo gives a shit who he owes money to. Like I said, when Trump owes you money, then YOU have a problem, not him.
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  #213  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:37 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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Tax returns show much more than who you owe money to. No investigator would ever think of making a forensic investigation of someone's finances without the tax returns. It's just a basic condition you start with. One thing you don't do is decide what you are going to find before you start. This is true for apologists as well as conspiracists.
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  #214  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:44 PM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
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Originally Posted by HeweyLogan View Post
That's the metric? Tell us everything we want to know otherwise it's a lie?

We're right back to why Obama didn't release his full birth certificate.

No?
Amazing how it always turns back to "Well, Obama didn't release his long form birth certificate!" How does that bear ANY relation to forty years' worth of presidents having released their tax returns? Hint: absolutely nothing. But it's an attempted distraction.

Nice try, though. That whole conspiracy theory has been refuted for many years.

Quote:
Neither are yours, I'm afraid to say.
Really? Your 'fact' (you presented exactly one piece of theoretically supporting evidence) was directly refuted. Mine have been proven true.

If you're going to try to rewrite history, at least make it interesting. Or, barring that, repeat it. That'll convince me.

Last edited by Johnny Ace; 03-21-2017 at 12:47 PM..
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  #215  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:07 PM
SingleMalt SingleMalt is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Is THAT now customary? Or are we just piling on because... wtf why not?

Why not have him release all his medical records and the court transcripts of his divorces as well?

And wo gives a shit who he owes money to. Like I said, when Trump owes you money, then YOU have a problem, not him.
If any of those records have relevance to the possibility that the President can be influenced by foreign governments, or - in extreme cases - blackmailed by these same actors, then yes, they should be released.

As for giving a shit about whom he owes money to - I care, as do many others. Whom you're beholden to directly shows who has influence over you. Is that a position we can tolerate in our President?

Did Obama's long-form birth certificate provide additional relevant information beyond what the regular certificate showed? Or are you just jumping on the debunked "the short form is a fake" bandwagon?
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  #216  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:11 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
If any of those records have relevance to the possibility that the President can be influenced by foreign governments, or - in extreme cases - blackmailed by these same actors, then yes, they should be released.

As for giving a shit about whom he owes money to - I care, as do many others. Whom you're beholden to directly shows who has influence over you. Is that a position we can tolerate in our President?

Did Obama's long-form birth certificate provide additional relevant information beyond what the regular certificate showed? Or are you just jumping on the debunked "the short form is a fake" bandwagon?
The long form birth certificate showed that don the con can manipulate the media and the presidency. Apparently that was only an appetizer.
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  #217  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:11 PM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
If any of those records have relevance to the possibility that the President can be influenced by foreign governments, or - in extreme cases - blackmailed by these same actors, then yes, they should be released.
Plus, his businesses are probably set up as flow-throughs. I.e., his business income flows through to him, so his business returns are directly relevant.
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  #218  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:14 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
Plus, his businesses are probably set up as flow-throughs. I.e., his business income flows through to him, so his business returns are directly relevant.
Oh c'mon! you're joshing me! What would his business returns have to do with him? Why are you piling on man?
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  #219  
Old 03-21-2017, 02:03 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SingleMalt View Post
If any of those records have relevance to the possibility that the President can be influenced by foreign governments, or - in extreme cases - blackmailed by these same actors, then yes, they should be released.
So what record do you think exists in his tax returns that would show this sort of vulnerability to influence.

Quote:
As for giving a shit about whom he owes money to - I care, as do many others. Whom you're beholden to directly shows who has influence over you. Is that a position we can tolerate in our President?
his creditors have no "influence" over him. Are you one of those guys that think the Russian mob will break his knees if he doesn't pay his debts?

Quote:
Did Obama's long-form birth certificate provide additional relevant information beyond what the regular certificate showed? Or are you just jumping on the debunked "the short form is a fake" bandwagon?
WTF are you talking about? I never asked for a birth certificate. I thought birthers were basically racists.

What is it about my post that makes you think I m a birther? Or do you just assume anyone that disagrees with the notion that tax returns will provide evidence of treason is a birther?
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  #220  
Old 03-21-2017, 02:04 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
Plus, his businesses are probably set up as flow-throughs. I.e., his business income flows through to him, so his business returns are directly relevant.
Almost all of Romney's businesses were partnerships for tax purposes. Why didn't we ask for THOSE?
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  #221  
Old 03-21-2017, 02:05 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Oh c'mon! you're joshing me! What would his business returns have to do with him? Why are you piling on man?
Other than going on a fishing expedition, you have no reason to want to see any of this shit. You think you might find something that you can use against him.

I agree he should have released his tax return but mostly I think they'll just show he isn't as rich as he claims to be.
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  #222  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:15 PM
jshore jshore is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Speculating without evidence is exactly the sort of shit that has undermined the credibility of the press. That would indeed be fake news.

...

What betrayal? Not sharing his tax returns? Sure its been custom for a few decades now but its not really followed rigorously and it was never really an issue until Nixon got accused of cheating on his taxes.

Speculating on conspiracy theories is for tabloids not journalists.
Yes, it is a betrayal of the public trust. It actually ought to be a legal requirement that a Presidential candidate release this information. Probably the only reason it hasn't been made one is that convention seemed to be working fine up to this point.

And, the first duty of the press is to inform the public. It is in the proper purview of news analyses to discuss with experts what can be gleaned about a Presidential candidate from looking at their tax returns and what possible reasons a candidate might have for hiding these from the public. To do otherwise is to leave the public in complete ignorance.

I for one feel that I am pretty ignorant as to the questions of what we might learn from Donald Trump's tax returns and it was refreshing to have Maddow and David Cay Johnston at least fill us in a little bit. We shouldn't have to rely on the alternative press as the only means of dispelling our ignorance.
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  #223  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:44 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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Op Cit
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Tax returns show much more than who you owe money to. No investigator would ever think of making a forensic investigation of someone's finances without the tax returns. It's just a basic condition you start with. One thing you don't do is decide what you are going to find before you start. This is true for apologists as well as conspiracists.
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  #224  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:58 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by jshore View Post
Yes, it is a betrayal of the public trust. It actually ought to be a legal requirement that a Presidential candidate release this information. Probably the only reason it hasn't been made one is that convention seemed to be working fine up to this point.

And, the first duty of the press is to inform the public. It is in the proper purview of news analyses to discuss with experts what can be gleaned about a Presidential candidate from looking at their tax returns and what possible reasons a candidate might have for hiding these from the public. To do otherwise is to leave the public in complete ignorance.

I for one feel that I am pretty ignorant as to the questions of what we might learn from Donald Trump's tax returns and it was refreshing to have Maddow and David Cay Johnston at least fill us in a little bit. We shouldn't have to rely on the alternative press as the only means of dispelling our ignorance.
Here is a list of all the Presidents and major candidates that have released their tax returns back to FDR. You will notice some gaps.

Speculation is fine for talking heads, fox 'news" and talk shows. Presenting speculation as news is not ethical journalism. Its called yellow dog journalism.

OK, so what did Rachel Maddow and David Cay Johnston specyulate about Trump's tax returns? Unless you think he actually cheated on his taxes, the only thing you are likely to find is an embarrassingly low level of business income for someone who is supposed to be a multi billionaire. I think his Apprentice and licensing income might actually constitute a significant portion of his income and wealth. This puts him in the Kim Kardashian category but we sort of already knew that.
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  #225  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:02 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post

OK, so what did Rachel Maddow and David Cay Johnston specyulate about Trump's tax returns? Unless you think he actually cheated on his taxes, the only thing you are likely to find is an embarrassingly low level of business income for someone who is supposed to be a multi billionaire. t.
We also learned that the Alternative Minimum Tax personally cost him over twenty million dollars, which is interesting when evaluating his proposal to get rid of the Alternative Minimum Tax.
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  #226  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:08 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Op Cit
What position is that a cite for?

This tax return thing is worth making some political hay over because Trump is breaking with tradition but you are not going to find a smoking gun there. At best you are going to find embarrassing shit.

And once again, who gives a shit who he owes money to? how is that relevant to anything?

Lets say you are Russia and Trump owes you money and he gets elected POTUS. How does that give you leverage over him? You really think no one is willing to lend money to his projects right now? Do you really think he would have trouble refinancing anything right now?
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  #227  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:18 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
We also learned that the Alternative Minimum Tax personally cost him over twenty million dollars, which is interesting when evaluating his proposal to get rid of the Alternative Minimum Tax.
The funny thing is that it is mostly Democrats that want to get rid of the AMT because it hits hardest in states with high state and local taxes. So the majority of AMT income comes from places like California, DC and NYC.

I don't thin it is funny at all that he wants to get rid of the AMT. The problems associated with the AMT were largely addressed when we instituted the passive activity loss rules in the 1986. There might still be room for improvement but the AMT is probably the single most complicating aspect of the tax code that we have.
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  #228  
Old 03-22-2017, 12:09 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
What position is that a cite for?

This tax return thing is worth making some political hay over because Trump is breaking with tradition but you are not going to find a smoking gun there. At best you are going to find embarrassing shit.

And once again, who gives a shit who he owes money to? how is that relevant to anything?

Lets say you are Russia and Trump owes you money and he gets elected POTUS. How does that give you leverage over him? You really think no one is willing to lend money to his projects right now? Do you really think he would have trouble refinancing anything right now?
You pretty much don't read or care what anyone else says, right?

If you could say one thing that wouldn't also sound good from a russian twitterbot it would help the dialog.
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  #229  
Old 03-22-2017, 03:59 PM
Ca3799 Ca3799 is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I don't think there's much in that.

I myself don't share my tax forms and there's nothing illegal or shady in them. Just not any of anyone's business.

In Trump's case, I imagine it's even more than that. There's virtually nothing that Trump could possibly release that wouldn't just give rise to further speculation. His tax forms are undoubtedly extremely complicated, with all sorts of tantalizing bits of info such as might be found on a tax form, but without enough detail to conclusively settle anything about any of the myriad negative things people are speculating about. I don't see anything for him to gain in releasing them.
The difference between Trump's tax returns and your tax returns is that Trump is now a man of grave national importance whose primary obligation is now to promote the best interests of me and you, and not himself anymore.

You can tell a lot about someone from their return.

For example, from the two pages that David Cay Johnston found in his mailbox, Johnston was able to tell something about the 150 million Trump earned. Johnston said:

" ...the dividends he gets are primarily not what are called qualified dividends that suggest they come from not big companies like ExxonMobil but privately held enterprises.

They show almost no tax-exempt interest, about $49,000. That would imply
at the time maybe $900,000 of municipal bonds. Not much I mean, lots of
college professors out there my age who have $900,000 in municipal bonds..."


Now, I don't find how much Trump has in municipal bonds to be particularly interesting. I did find it interesting that without the alternative minimum tax, Trump's tax bill would have been on 3.5%.


But what I would find the most interesting would be the sources of Trump's income (and the details of his "negative income" of 103 million).

There are plenty of questions to be asked about from where Trump's income originates especially in light of all his ties to Russia. And would Trump's personal financial dependency on huge loans from foreign banks affect Trump's ability to work with these countries in good times or bad?


Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ald-trump-debt ) reported that Trump owes Deutch Bank over 350 million (and 100 million to Ladder Capitol on his Trump Tower, which he does not own).


Trump borrowed 640 million (in personal,not business, loans) from Deutch to finance his Chicago tower.

During the market crash of 2008, Trump was had a 40 million payment due on that loan that he couldn't pay. He tried to sue Deutch Bank to get out of the payment, blaming them for their role in the economic downturn that caused him to be unable to make the payment.

This is the same year when Dmitry Rybolovlev bought Trump's Palm Beach mansion. Trump paid $41.35 million for the property in 2004 and sold it for 95 million in 2008.
(Who has properties double in value in so short a time And during an global economic downturn?)

According to The Seattle Times (http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-w...beach-mansion/ ), Rybolovlev never made any effort to have the property inspected or valued, never lived in it, and denied the purchase and then tried to hide the property during his divorce in 2011. During the divorce procedings, Rybolovlev gave a variety of reasons for the purchase that included 'for the kids', 'for an investment', and for 'equestrian' use.


Rybolovlev is the same guy whose private plane just happened to land in cities where Trump just happened to be both during his campaign and into his presidency, but Trump says he's never met the guy.

I wonder if this guy that Trump has never met gave Trump any more money recently.
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