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  #201  
Old 09-16-2019, 06:52 PM
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The Positive abortion news and experiences thread was closed, but the decision was appealed and the thread has been re-opened.

That thread has simply fallen off the front page (depending on your browser settings of course). I suspect the thread is going to be inherently low traffic.

An actual defensive gun use is likely to be a traumatic experience for the people directly involved (however legally and morally justifiable their decision to use a firearm was), but pretty often a DGU is also newsworthy, allowing the rest of us (who weren't directly involved) to re-post and comment on their stories. The decision to have an abortion is a private medical decision, and you rarely get items in the local or national news media about private medical decisions. The number of people willing to share their very personal experiences in a "Positive abortion news and experiences" thread is likely going to be small (and let's face it, the total pool of people who could share such stories isn't very big to begin with; alas, there just aren't that many active Straight Dopers around anymore).
There are a lot of red sports cars out there because people like their sports cars colored red. It’s not because the powers-that-be are preventing sports car manufacturers from making as many sports cars in other colors. A lack of diversity does not automatically mean a suppression of said diversity.

In other words, as you said that topic by its very nature is likely to draw a lot of responses and examples, while other (politically different) topics might not. It doesn’t mean those other topics are getting squelched.

Last edited by Atamasama; 09-16-2019 at 06:54 PM.
  #202  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:57 PM
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We are not taking sides, one way or the other. All we are doing is asking people to actually stick to the topic of a thread.
I'm good with that. More below.
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If that thread upsets you, and you don't even want it to exist, well, you know where the Pit is. Just because it is an upsetting thread doesn't mean that anyone gets a chance to derail or intentionally corrupt it.
I'm fine with its existing. I'll be honest that I'm less than keen on its placement in MPSIMS, which is largely a forum for fun and games - ok, not games, we've got other fora for those now, but it used to be a forum where one could get away from the issues that divide us. Not so much anymore.
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The "no threadshitting" rule applies to all threads. This isn't unique to the gun thread. We are not making special rules for that thread.
In other threads, "no threadshitting" has a different meaning. In a football thread, it's not threadshitting to have heated disagreements about football, but it would be threadshitting for me to go into such a thread and talk about why nobody should watch football on account of CTE.

In the Positive Gun News thread, the disagreement itself is out of bounds. (ETA: I can't argue, for instance, that a particular DGU isn't positive gun news, even if I were to argue that from the POV of legitimacy of gun ownership.) It's a place for presenting supporting evidence for exactly one side of a Great Debate. Other than the 'breaking news' threads, this is the only thread where that's been the case. And those threads are ephemeral, they're there for a few days, then drop down the main forum page and disappear.
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You can start a thread on any focused topic. If you want to explore only the positive aspects of labor rights, then feel free to start such a thread. Just be clear about exactly what point of view your thread is from (pro-union, I assume), so that it is clear exactly what is considered "positive" and not, and be clear that you are not looking for a debate on the topic. Anyone who posts something "positive" from an anti-union point of view or trying to engage in any sort of labor debate would be off-topic and those types of posts would be moderated. And, of course, those with opposing views are free to create threads of their own, if they so desire.
This has not been clear to me, so thanks for clarifying. While I'm still uncomfortable with the notion of such a thread, I may do exactly that. (Is MPSIMS the specific forum where such threads belong, btw, or could one be in IMHO or some other forum?)

Last edited by RTFirefly; 09-16-2019 at 07:59 PM.
  #203  
Old 09-16-2019, 10:46 PM
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In the Positive Gun News thread, the disagreement itself is out of bounds. (ETA: I can't argue, for instance, that a particular DGU isn't positive gun news, even if I were to argue that from the POV of legitimacy of gun ownership.)
Actually, you can, and people do. You do have to keep in mind the POV of the thread. But yeah, if you don't think something is really "positive" from the POV of the thread, you can certainly say so in the thread. Just keep in mind that it's MPSIMS, not Great Debates.

The posts that are getting moderated are the posts that are anti-gun, which is not the POV of the thread. Because these off-topic posts are being moderated, some people are saying that you can't post anything that isn't "YAY GUNS!" That's not true. If you look at what has actually been moderated, Fear Itself posted about Kroger taking a pro-gun control stance, and called that "positive". In a pro-gun POV thread, gun control is both off-topic and completely contrary to the intent of the thread, and is clearly not "positive" by the intent of the thread.

Prior to that, there was a warning for personal insults, and before that, manson1972 continued his quest to completely subvert the thread by intentionally posting things that, from the POV of the thread, were clearly not positive.

Actual discussions about whether or not something was positive, like some questions by aceplace57 and others, have not been moderated, because they are on-topic.

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(Is MPSIMS the specific forum where such threads belong, btw, or could one be in IMHO or some other forum?)
Positive news threads aren't necessarily looking for opinions, they are just sharing news that those from the same point of view thinks is "positive". So MPSIMS is the best place.

If you actually want opinions, or a debate, then IMHO or Great Debates is the better choice, and you'll probably want to give your thread a title other than "Positive X news of the day".

Last edited by engineer_comp_geek; 09-16-2019 at 10:46 PM.
  #204  
Old 09-17-2019, 05:09 AM
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Thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail, ECG. You've clarified things a great deal for me.
  #205  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek View Post
Prior to that, there was a warning for personal insults, and before that, manson1972 continued his quest to completely subvert the thread by intentionally posting things that, from the POV of the thread, were clearly not positive.
Thanks for the shout out, but come on, that was 10 months ago!
  #206  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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Thanks for the shout out, but come on, that was 10 months ago!
I believe there have been a number of posters suspended or banned recently at least in part for warnings given longer ago than that.
  #207  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:04 PM
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I believe there have been a number of posters suspended or banned recently at least in part for warnings given longer ago than that.
Yeah, so?
  #208  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:17 PM
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This is great news. If I ever want to talk about something I'm all-for and want no negative contributions whatsoever (read debate), I will open a thread entitled "Positive News about X", and that will keep the nay-sayers out.
Fantastic. I'm glad I poked my head in this thread.
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  #209  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:18 PM
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If you're arguing that MPSIMS should have the same rules and play as IMHO, then what would make MPSIMS different than IMHO? It would just be a more trivial version of IMHO. It's fair for different forums to have different rules and flavor/style.
I am not arguing anything. I was responding to a query about why anyone would find the thread disturbing. People are used to a different type of interaction on SDMB.

Also, the "rules" that have been discussed here have been tacit in the past. It is commonly understood that you can't threadshit, but it is not commonly understood, or stated in writing, that the OP has the last word about what is or is not appropriate to post to a thread. I am not arguing that idea is wrong, I'm saying that nobody ever said it was a rule before.

Last edited by CookingWithGas; 09-17-2019 at 03:18 PM.
  #210  
Old 09-17-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BwanaBob View Post
This is great news. If I ever want to talk about something I'm all-for and want no negative contributions whatsoever (read debate), I will open a thread entitled "Positive News about X", and that will keep the nay-sayers out.
Fantastic. I'm glad I poked my head in this thread.
At least in MPSIMS. In Great Debates or the BBQ Pit, expect some nay-saying.
  #211  
Old 09-18-2019, 06:38 AM
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If you're arguing that MPSIMS should have the same rules and play as IMHO, then what would make MPSIMS different than IMHO? It would just be a more trivial version of IMHO. It's fair for different forums to have different rules and flavor/style.
I agree with this, which is why I think such threads as we're discussing here really ought to be somewhere else. Their very presence in MPSIMS changes the character of the forum, and not for the better IMHO.
  #212  
Old 09-18-2019, 06:43 AM
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This is great news. If I ever want to talk about something I'm all-for and want no negative contributions whatsoever (read debate), I will open a thread entitled "Positive News about X", and that will keep the nay-sayers out.
This is why no one was ever allowed to contradict Professor Farnsworth.
  #213  
Old 09-18-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BwanaBob View Post
This is great news. If I ever want to talk about something I'm all-for and want no negative contributions whatsoever (read debate), I will open a thread entitled "Positive News about X", and that will keep the nay-sayers out.
Fantastic. I'm glad I poked my head in this thread.
I suggest a "Positive Donald Trump News" thread.
  #214  
Old 09-18-2019, 07:43 AM
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I agree with this, which is why I think such threads as we're discussing here really ought to be somewhere else. Their very presence in MPSIMS changes the character of the forum, and not for the better IMHO.
Aye; that thread is clearly not about something "mundane"; it's about something that is extremely important to the OP and others. It isn't "pointless"; there's a definite point that's trying to be made.

OTOH, it can't go in IMHO because it specifically rejects opinions that don't coincide with the OP.
  #215  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:01 AM
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Aye; that thread is clearly not about something "mundane"; it's about something that is extremely important to the OP and others. It isn't "pointless"; there's a definite point that's trying to be made.

OTOH, it can't go in IMHO because it specifically rejects opinions that don't coincide with the OP.
True - there's no forum that it really fits in. If there are going to be threads such as this, they're going to have to be an exception regardless of which forum they're placed in.

My suggestion would be to put such threads in GD and have a linked 'debate about the Positive ____ News' thread to sound off in, if one is so inclined.
  #216  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:04 PM
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Also, the "rules" that have been discussed here have been tacit in the past. It is commonly understood that you can't threadshit, but it is not commonly understood, or stated in writing, that the OP has the last word about what is or is not appropriate to post to a thread. I am not arguing that idea is wrong, I'm saying that nobody ever said it was a rule before.
The OP doesn't own the thread, but they do get to pick the topic. For example, if you want to discuss Border Collies, and only Border Collies, posts about other dog breeds in that thread would be off-topic. It's the same basic thing here.

People think that the gun thread is unique. It's not.

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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
I agree with this, which is why I think such threads as we're discussing here really ought to be somewhere else. Their very presence in MPSIMS changes the character of the forum, and not for the better IMHO.
While MPSIMS is generally light-hearted, it is not always so. For example, that is where posts about serious illnesses and deaths also get posted.
  #217  
Old 09-19-2019, 01:20 PM
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While MPSIMS is generally light-hearted, it is not always so. For example, that is where posts about serious illnesses and deaths also get posted.
Yeah, but those don't get anyone's tempers boiling.
  #218  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:00 PM
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Sorry to be late to the party.

I really don't see, and didn't see the last time around, why this is so complicated.

Guns is a controversial topic that has political implications.

PGNotD thread declares that stories of the violent use and proliferation of guns is good news, and does not allow any disagreement on the matter, even though that is not a position held by many if not most posters on this board.

It would be like if we a started "Positive Political News of the Day.", and only allowed stories that were favorable to Democrats, and stories favorable to republicans are not allowed.

If it were named, "Stories of defensive gun use." Then there would be virtually no push back on the thread. It is only because of the declarative title that people find it objectionable. When someone used the same formulation to broach a topic *you* disagreed with, you immediately took it as trolling. It was only after you went through all that with the warnings and the thread closure that I realized that you were not entirely incorrect*, that declaring your side of a controversial subject as "positive" is a form of trolling, even if unintentional, and the PGNofD thread, even if was not created with the intent of riling up anyone and everyone who does not find stories of people being shot and killed to be positive news, it still has that effect.



Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek View Post
The OP doesn't own the thread, but they do get to pick the topic. For example, if you want to discuss Border Collies, and only Border Collies, posts about other dog breeds in that thread would be off-topic. It's the same basic thing here.
A better analogy would be a thread called ,"Who's a good Boy?"

And in the OP, declare that only Border Collies are good boys.


*If PANofD had been made in a vacuum, then I would actually consider it to be trolling. As it was made by inspiration of this thread that it would be a place where people could talk about their personal experiences with it, without having to worry about being attacked by pro-lifers, it is far less trolling than PGNofD is, and as that has been declared to be acceptable, a similar formation should be by precedent as acceptable and protected by moderation as well.
  #219  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:06 PM
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Sorry to be late to the party.

I really don't see, and didn't see the last time around, why this is so complicated.

Guns is a controversial topic that has political implications.

PGNotD thread declares that stories of the violent use and proliferation of guns is good news, and does not allow any disagreement on the matter, even though that is not a position held by many if not most posters on this board.

It would be like if we a started "Positive Political News of the Day.", and only allowed stories that were favorable to Democrats, and stories favorable to republicans are not allowed.

If it were named, "Stories of defensive gun use." Then there would be virtually no push back on the thread. It is only because of the declarative title that people find it objectionable. When someone used the same formulation to broach a topic *you* disagreed with, you immediately took it as trolling. It was only after you went through all that with the warnings and the thread closure that I realized that you were not entirely incorrect*, that declaring your side of a controversial subject as "positive" is a form of trolling, even if unintentional, and the PGNofD thread, even if was not created with the intent of riling up anyone and everyone who does not find stories of people being shot and killed to be positive news, it still has that effect.

A better analogy would be a thread called ,"Who's a good Boy?"

And in the OP, declare that only Border Collies are good boys.


*If PANofD had been made in a vacuum, then I would actually consider it to be trolling. As it was made by inspiration of this thread that it would be a place where people could talk about their personal experiences with it, without having to worry about being attacked by pro-lifers, it is far less trolling than PGNofD is, and as that has been declared to be acceptable, a similar formation should be by precedent as acceptable and protected by moderation as well.

I don't think this analogy fits. Again, take the thread called "Positive Abortion News of the Day" (which you already allude to.) Should we allow any and all news on abortion to be included in that thread, whether it's a thread about someone's positive experience with abortion, or an abortion gone disastrously wrong? To allow pro-lifers to jump in like that would make a mockery of the thread. It would no longer be "positive" abortion stories; it would be "omnibus abortion stories for everything."

Or what if someone had a thread called "positive Obama news" back in the days of his presidency, and even a post like "House Republicans vote to impeach Obama!" was considered "positive" Obama news because, well, someone finds that positive?

Last edited by Velocity; 09-27-2019 at 02:08 PM.
  #220  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:07 PM
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IMO that's prolly the best post in this thread; good job, k9bfriender!
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If it were named, "Stories of defensive gun use." Then there would be virtually no push back on the thread. It is only because of the declarative title that people find it objectionable.
That's the crux of the biscuit right there.
  #221  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:19 PM
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I don't think this analogy fits. Again, take the thread called "Positive Abortion News of the Day" (which you already allude to.) Should we allow any and all news on abortion to be included in that thread, whether it's a thread about someone's positive experience with abortion, or an abortion gone disastrously wrong? To allow pro-lifers to jump in like that would make a mockery of the thread. It would no longer be "positive" abortion stories; it would be "omnibus abortion stories for everything."
Would you consider "The stripper I accidently got pregnant decided to have an abortion, so yay! No child support for me" to be Positive Abortion News?
  #222  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:24 PM
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Would you consider "The stripper I accidently got pregnant decided to have an abortion, so yay! No child support for me" to be Positive Abortion News?
I donít see why not, you avoided what would likely be a significant and long-term financial burden.
  #223  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:25 PM
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Would you consider "The stripper I accidently got pregnant decided to have an abortion, so yay! No child support for me" to be Positive Abortion News?
If it's a Positive Abortion News thread, then yes, that would fit the parameters of the thread.


For it to not qualify, it would have to be a story like, "My stripper girlfriend wanted to get an abortion, but the laws here in Mississippi prevented her from doing so, yay"
  #224  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:31 PM
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I don't think this analogy fits. Again, take the thread called "Positive Abortion News of the Day" (which you already allude to.) Should we allow any and all news on abortion to be included in that thread, whether it's a thread about someone's positive experience with abortion, or an abortion gone disastrously wrong?
You do realize that k9bfriender said that he would have considered the PANotD thread to be trolling if it wasn't created in the wake of vociferous moderator defense of the PGNotD thread.

Of course allowing anti-abortion arguments in the "positive" thread would make a mockery of the thread, the point is that the very concept of the thread is a problem.

It's a deliberately constructed echo chamber for divisive political views. It's a weird concept on a website dedicated to fighting ignorance, setting aside a place where alternate viewpoints are simply not allowed.
  #225  
Old 09-27-2019, 07:14 PM
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(..)
It's a deliberately constructed echo chamber for divisive political views. It's a weird concept on a website dedicated to fighting ignorance, setting aside a place where alternate viewpoints are simply not allowed.
The crux of the matter, well formulated.
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  #226  
Old 09-28-2019, 12:04 AM
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...
It's a deliberately constructed echo chamber for divisive political views. It's a weird concept on a website dedicated to fighting ignorance, setting aside a place where alternate viewpoints are simply not allowed.
This is a common occurrence. In a thread eulogizing some celebrity, it is threadshitting to come in and call that person horrible names. "What's your favorite Harry Potter Book" - and "I hate all of them, I never even bothered to read them, populist garbage" will get you a well deserved Warning for threadshitting. "Who is your favorite Raiders Player?" and "Those asshole traitors, I spit on their shadow"- will also get you dinged.

This has been explained to you guys over and over and over. There are no special rules for that thread. It just has "No threadshitting" just like every other thread does.

Apparently, you want, desperately to be able to threadshit in this odd thread. Why?

There's arent lots of other gun related threads? There isnt one devoted to stupid gun news?

Last edited by DrDeth; 09-28-2019 at 12:06 AM.
  #227  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:58 AM
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This is a common occurrence. In a thread eulogizing some celebrity, it is threadshitting to come in and call that person horrible names. "What's your favorite Harry Potter Book" - and "I hate all of them, I never even bothered to read them, populist garbage" will get you a well deserved Warning for threadshitting. "Who is your favorite Raiders Player?" and "Those asshole traitors, I spit on their shadow"- will also get you dinged.

This has been explained to you guys over and over and over. There are no special rules for that thread. It just has "No threadshitting" just like every other thread does.

Apparently, you want, desperately to be able to threadshit in this odd thread. Why?

There's arent lots of other gun related threads? There isnt one devoted to stupid gun news?
You are conflating a thread about the latest Harry Potter with a long running thread about one of the most divisive subjects in American politics. And you are calling others desparate?

Really?
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  #228  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:04 AM
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And you (and others here) keep trying to appropriatie the term "Threadshitting" to suit your needs.

In the context of the SDMB this:

Quote:
Threadshitting is belittling the topic or the people discussing it. It typically takes the form of a dismissive comment, like "Who cares?" or "This is stupid!" or similar. The implication of the threadshitter is that discussion of such a topic is beneath them, and should be beneath everybody else. If you really do think that a discussion is inane or pointless, the appropriate thing to do is to not participate in it. And, of course, if you see someone threadshitting, please do not respond with personal insults or accusations: instead, REPORT the post to a Moderator.
is threadshitting, passionately arguing that someone is wrong is not threadshitting.
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Last edited by The Librarian; 09-28-2019 at 04:04 AM.
  #229  
Old 09-28-2019, 06:22 AM
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Those who are opposed to the Positive Gun News thread are clearly not going to be happy until we allow them to trash that thread, and since that's not going to happen, the endless discussion here is getting rather pointless.

So, that's enough. If you still feel that you must vent, you know where the Pit is. This is closed.
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