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  #401  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Raza View Post

I have played Fallout 4 for 100 hours and I've probably experienced less than half of what is out there. And when I have, there is incredible mod support for all kinds of new experiences.

NMS has none - absolutely none - of the depth of FO4, but they're the same price, and probably came with similar hype. I've paid $60 for a game that has perhaps 20 hours of gameplay life, if that.
I've got FO4, played it for a few hours, didn't like it much. I've played NMS sky more.

From an hours of gameplay perspective NMS wins.
  #402  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:45 PM
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So, when a developer says "You're going to be able to...", all that really means is "hey, wouldn't it be cool if you could..."?
  #403  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:51 PM
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So, when a developer says "You're going to be able to...", all that really means is "hey, wouldn't it be cool if you could..."?
That is very often what I understand them to mean.

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  #404  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:55 PM
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Well I'm not a monster. I have empathy. If anyone here spent $60 and had a miserable experience, I'm sorry. I hope you got your money back.
  #405  
Old 08-30-2016, 10:05 PM
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In that case, buy my game! It's going to have ten trillion planets, each of them carefully hand-crafted by professional artists, and all populated with creatures developed by running a molecular-level evolution simulation for four billion years. It'll all be in 150,000 by 100,000 pixel full-3D VR that can run on an ordinary monitor without needing goggles, and will contain plans to build your own actual FTL starship for $15.73 worth of materials. And hey, even if it doesn't contain any of that, well, it's not like I ever told you that it would, but it would be really cool if it did, right?
  #406  
Old 08-30-2016, 10:57 PM
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In that case, buy my game!
Sure if you spend money on pre-rendered videos made using Maya / 3D Studio Max, claim they are rendered in game, and convince a publishing company to promote you at E3-CES you'll get plenty of people lining up to buy your game. If you don't deliver then yeah you'll piss off a lot of people, but you still might make money.
  #407  
Old 08-30-2016, 11:40 PM
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In that case, buy my game! It's going to have ten trillion planets, each of them carefully hand-crafted by professional artists, and all populated with creatures developed by running a molecular-level evolution simulation for four billion years. It'll all be in 150,000 by 100,000 pixel full-3D VR that can run on an ordinary monitor without needing goggles, and will contain plans to build your own actual FTL starship for $15.73 worth of materials. And hey, even if it doesn't contain any of that, well, it's not like I ever told you that it would, but it would be really cool if it did, right?
I am defeated.
  #408  
Old 08-30-2016, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by coremelt View Post
Sure if you spend money on pre-rendered videos made using Maya / 3D Studio Max, claim they are rendered in game, and convince a publishing company to promote you at E3-CES you'll get plenty of people lining up to buy your game. If you don't deliver then yeah you'll piss off a lot of people, but you still might make money.
Remember to add a 121 minute unskippable cutscene at the start of the "game" to defeat Steam's refund policy.
  #409  
Old 08-31-2016, 08:05 AM
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My point in my first reply to you was that it is fairly clear that your post contained inaccuracies about the game. I'm not talking about personal preferences, I'm talking about whether people even actually understand what the game was supposed to be like according to official marketing and what it's actually like. The two are not nearly so different as many (such as yourself) seem to think. And where they do differ, judgments that people "lied" etc are not supported. NOthing at all about personal preferences is relevant to any of this--I didn't bring that up.
You failed to actually demonstrate that my post contained inaccuracies about the game. In some cases you tried to argue with subjective terms, but disagreeing about whether something is enjoyable or not doesn't constitute an inaccuracy about the game. The problem here is not whether 'people' understood what the game is supposed to be like, the problem is (as you said explicitly to SenorBeef) that you have decided that most of what the developers said would be in the game and showed in gameplay trailers just doesn't count. The idea that people would expect features discussed in interviews to be in the game to be in the game is foreign to you, apparently you think features only count as being promised if the developers use some specific phrasing like 'this will really, really actually be in the game for sure we promise for sure, pinky swear', but that's not how the rest of us operate.

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I read each word, and what you interpreted as "pedantry" was in fact the very evidence that I was listening--I went through each point you made (and your sentences, being complex, made more than one point each, hence the breaking-up--it's a standard mode of discussion on the internet and at the SDMB specifically) and responded to it substantively.
It's not a standard mode of discussion on the internet and at the SDMB specifically, it's a thing some people do when they want to be absurdly pedantic and win an argument by making it too cumbersome to reply. The vast majority of posts on this board do not break a simple sentence into two-word fragments and argue with two words at a time.
  #410  
Old 08-31-2016, 08:29 AM
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Pissing contests over wording in posts about whether a feature was promised or just sort-of promised seem to be skipping over the objective fact that an unprecedented number of buyers are demanding refunds. I cannot think of any video game launch in recent history where so many gamers are demanding their money back. Even "Spore" wasn't this bad.

Now, we all have a right to our own opinions but the fact is that there is way more opinion along the lines of "This game is a scam to such a degree that I will go to the trouble of getting my money back" than is normally the case with video games. So one of two things is going on here:

1. People who play video games suddenly became insanely irrational and picky the day "No Man's Sky" was released, or

2. There is, in fact, something wrong with the game.

I find Option 2 a lot more likely.
  #411  
Old 08-31-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
That's why I don't understand the preorder mentality. If a game is good, great, you can still get it after reading some reviews and not lose anything, but if a game is bad then you're playing into their exact gambit of trying to make you buy their product before you can find out its bad. Why anyone volunteers to buy into that gambit I honesty have no idea. It's not like you have to wait long - you waited months or years for the game, but you can't wait a few hours to see if the game is a disappointment before committing your money to it?
Yeah, it's not like they are going to run out of digital downloads.
  #412  
Old 08-31-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post



It's not a standard mode of discussion on the internet and at the SDMB specifically, it's a thing some people do when they want to be absurdly pedantic and win an argument by making it too cumbersome to reply. The vast majority of posts on this board do not break a simple sentence into two-word fragments and argue with two words at a time.
Here is your sentence:

Quote:
There were supposed to be interesting animals interacting on different worlds, instead you get color-shifted creatures whose physiques don't make sense sparsely distributed on their color-shifted planets.
That sentence contains four separate claims. I responded to each of those four claims in a separate paragraph. To indicate which claim each paragraph was responding to, I quoted the relevant portion of your sentence.

Again, this is SOP.
  #413  
Old 08-31-2016, 09:36 AM
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Other than Minecraft, I kind of feel like the quest to make the "ultimate open world sandbox survival PvP build shit procedurally generate universe simulator" has produced mixed results at best.
  #414  
Old 08-31-2016, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
disagreeing about whether something is enjoyable or not
BTW earlier when you said I wasn't listening, that was projection on your part. This now makes the second post where it is clear that, though you probably physically read the words I wrote, you weren't actually reading them. The above has zero to do with anything relevant to anything I've said to you in this thread. Same goes for much else that you wrote.

Enjoy the rest of your day!

I SAID GOOD DAY
  #415  
Old 08-31-2016, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
Here is your sentence:



That sentence contains four separate claims. I responded to each of those four claims in a separate paragraph. To indicate which claim each paragraph was responding to, I quoted the relevant portion of your sentence.

Again, this is SOP.
Six claims actually--I didn't even break it down as much as I could sensibly have done.
  #416  
Old 08-31-2016, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
PSo one of two things is going on here:

1. People who play video games suddenly became insanely irrational and picky the day "No Man's Sky" was released, or

2. There is, in fact, something wrong with the game.

I find Option 2 a lot more likely.
Or 3 -- most likely of all -- the over-reaction of a few early players on social media took on a life of its own and produced a bandwagon effect really having nothing to do with the quality or lack of same of the game. Many of these "list of 30 biggest lies in NMS" articles appeared within hours of the game's release, before folks could even have played it long enough to realize that 20 of them were about things that were actually in the game.

My feeds are currently full of "OMG NMS Sucks!" and "it's not enough that I don't like this game, no one else can like it either!" articles. What's most telling is the comments sections, which are full of "what the heck are you talking about, I'm loving this game?" folks. These are being slammed (sort of like here) with the sort of passionate white-hot hatred usually reserved for Obama and toilet-paper-roll-direction discussions. I can find little evidence that this is about the game at all any more, it's become religion.

Last edited by TimeWinder; 08-31-2016 at 10:59 AM.
  #417  
Old 08-31-2016, 12:25 PM
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Or 3 -- most likely of all -- the over-reaction of a few early players on social media took on a life of its own and produced a bandwagon effect really having nothing to do with the quality or lack of same of the game.
That's just a snarkier version of RickJay's No. 1. No. 2 is still the overwhelming consensus.

Quote:
Many of these "list of 30 biggest lies in NMS" articles appeared within hours of the game's release, before folks could even have played it long enough to realize that 20 of them were about things that were actually in the game.
Care to share?

Last edited by Knorf; 08-31-2016 at 12:26 PM.
  #418  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:33 PM
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BTW earlier when you said I wasn't listening, that was projection on your part. This now makes the second post where it is clear that, though you probably physically read the words I wrote, you weren't actually reading them. The above has zero to do with anything relevant to anything I've said to you in this thread. Same goes for much else that you wrote.
No, it's perfectly clear that you weren't actually listening to what I said, I wasn't projecting anything, merely observing your response. And it's also becoming clear that you don't have some weird difficulty parsing ordinary English, since you used the same idiom above with your 'weren't actually reading them' comment - so you know that 'isn't even listening' doesn't have only the barest literal meaning. It's pretty clear that you're trying to 'win' the conversation with some kind of word game combined with bold declarations that you didn't say stuff that's clearly said on the previous page.

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Again, this is SOP.
If it's really SOP, point to a few examples of someone other than you breaking down a single sentence into at least four quotes, some as short as two words and writing replies to each part of the sentence individually instead of to the whole sentence, and the other person responding to that and continuing the conversation somewhere in the eight pages of this discussion.

Last edited by Pantastic; 08-31-2016 at 01:35 PM.
  #419  
Old 08-31-2016, 02:12 PM
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- so you know that 'isn't even listening' doesn't have only the barest literal meaning. bold declarations that you didn't say stuff that's clearly said on the previous page.

I seriously, honest to god, no lie, genuinely and actually do not know what you are referring to here.

I have not, on this page or the previous page, even once referred to the issue of whether the game is enjoyable. Nowhere do I find that I've done so as I review the pages, and in no way do I recall doing so, and I cannot make sense of the idea that I've done so given what my point has been.

This is not me trying to win a conversation (nor has it been, throughout our conversation), this is me explaining to you where I'm coming from. You're saying I said things, which so far as I can tell, I have not said, not even in paraphrasistically.

So.... can you tell me, please? What am I missing here?
  #420  
Old 08-31-2016, 03:25 PM
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Meh, I pre-ordered Spore, I've learned my lesson about handing money over to advance hype.

I bought NMS after reading all of the various rants and reviews, as an informed purchase. I'm about 20 hours in, have got my money's worth by this point, and will soon be on to the next game. At this point, I've played it more and enjoyed it more than Diablo 3 or Borderlands Prequel, which I also bought at full price.
  #421  
Old 09-01-2016, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Or 3 -- most likely of all -- the over-reaction of a few early players on social media took on a life of its own and produced a bandwagon effect really having nothing to do with the quality or lack of same of the game.
Sure I'll sometimes join a pile-on on social media, but I won't stop playing a good game that I am enjoying because of what bored ppl are posting on facebook. People are stopping playing NMS in droves though, herds even, so I suspect it does have something to do with lack of quality.
  #422  
Old 09-01-2016, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Or 3 -- most likely of all -- the over-reaction of a few early players on social media took on a life of its own and produced a bandwagon effect really having nothing to do with the quality or lack of same of the game. Many of these "list of 30 biggest lies in NMS" articles appeared within hours of the game's release, before folks could even have played it long enough to realize that 20 of them were about things that were actually in the game.
As has been pointed out, this is simply a variation of my possibility #1.

If in fact this is true, why it is so much more true of this particular game than any other game? If in fact No Man's Sky is NOT a flawed game that was sold on the basis of features it doesn't possess, then why is it the gaming community chose this game to rip apart, unique among all games in the last few years? If the reason is not elements of the game, then what is the reason?
  #423  
Old 09-02-2016, 02:21 AM
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I forgot to address this post. Here goes.

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Originally Posted by Richard Pearse View Post
Have you played it? It's certainly not "really bad".
I haven't played it. I've watched twitch streams and read what other people who've played it have to say. I would say that it's pretty bad. The fundamental gameplay loop is boring and unchallenging. The world building isn't that strong - there's not enough wonder and feeling of a live universe to really feel like you're a part of something big. There's just not a whole lot there. I don't know what I could get by playing the game that I wouldn't get by watching a twitch stream.

And it's clear that only a very few people are having fun with it. The game peaked at under 7500 people yesterday. That's losing almost 97% of the player base in less than 3 weeks. There are massive reports of refunds. If that's not bad, I don't know what is.

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To me, it's a bit like Minecraft, a pretty game that I enjoy playing but is not deep enough to hold my attention for any length of time.
I mean, other people have addressed this - I'm not going to question your subjective experience, but minecraft is way deeper. Obviously most gamers feel the same way, since Minecraft is possibly the biggest game ever, and NMS can't hold onto 4% of its player base.

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If no one bought games day one and always waited for reviews they would soon discover that just because something reviews well doesn't mean they will enjoy playing it. They will then go back to buying games that look like they might interest them without relying on reviews. I mean really, why base your spending on whether another person likes something or not? Isn't the important point whether YOU like it?
Oh come on. I can't believe you're trying to defend the position of "no, I'd rather not know how the game turned out, it's better to throw my money in blind"

You don't like following review scores? Okay, well actually read the review and see what they're telling you and make your decisions about that, even if the reviewer didn't like it. Don't like reviews at all? Fine, fire up twitch or youtube and watch someone else play the game.

I can't believe I actually have to defend the position here that knowing more about the game is better than paying your money blind. And I'm not even talking about waiting weeks or even days. Streams will be up within minutes of the game's release.

This is lunacy. "No, I'm not gonna learn my lesson, it's better if you buy games blind even if they're crap. If you're waiting for a game for 3 years, you just can't wait 3 hours after it comes out! You have to charge in there and just buy it! That's the best way"

This feels like the marshmallow experiment/instant gratification failure combined with choice-supportive bias where once you've made your decision you're going to warp your reality around supporting that decision. I can't believe that people make the decision to blindly preorder with no benefit, and then even when it blows up in their face, they somehow become even more convinced they made the right move and need to do it again. You gain no advantages by doing this, only disadvantages.
  #424  
Old 09-02-2016, 02:45 AM
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Senor Beef is right about this. NMS is now a cautionary tale. For all those gamers inclined to pre-order games, with digital downloads being the norm nowadays, pre-ordering is just not that brilliant an idea.
  #425  
Old 09-02-2016, 03:01 AM
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I'm curious, having not played at all bt looked at a few videos, is there any point to space combat if you don't want to be a space-dick? Do you actually get attacked in space for no reason?
  #426  
Old 09-02-2016, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I haven't played it. I've watched twitch streams and read what other people who've played it have to say. I would say that it's pretty bad.
Wait, you're carrying negatively on at length in a nearly 10-page long thread about a game you haven't even played??? Come on man, that's... one of the reasons people think gamers as a group are entitled whiners.

I know you love gaming, but seriously, do you not see that being this opinionated on a game you haven't played is pretty much the textbook example of an internet stereotype?
  #427  
Old 09-02-2016, 03:17 AM
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Why do you feel the need to make personal attacks? What does it matter if I've played it? Am I saying anything that's incorrect? Can you contest my arguments?

What is whining or entitled about anything I'm saying? Entitled to what? A world where publishers care about the quality of their product? A world where people actually see what they're buying before they buy it?
  #428  
Old 09-02-2016, 04:13 AM
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Wait, you're carrying negatively on at length in a nearly 10-page long thread about a game you haven't even played??? Come on man, that's... one of the reasons people think gamers as a group are entitled whiners.

I know you love gaming, but seriously, do you not see that being this opinionated on a game you haven't played is pretty much the textbook example of an internet stereotype?
I just find it a bit weird, as I posted about earlier.
  #429  
Old 09-02-2016, 04:14 AM
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Do you actually get attacked in space for no reason?
Yes. Although the reason may be that you are carrying valuable cargo. Let's just say I've been attacked and died.
  #430  
Old 09-02-2016, 06:49 AM
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I forgot to address this post. Here goes.



I haven't played it.
OK then. I really don't understand why you are so invested in all of this. Take a chill pill and let people buy what they want to buy without being so patronising.





Quote:
Oh come on. I can't believe you're trying to defend the position of "no, I'd rather not know how the game turned out, it's better to throw my money in blind"
The position is, "the only person who knows if I will enjoy the game is me, not some stranger living half way around the world."

Quote:
You don't like following review scores? Okay, well actually read the review and see what they're telling you and make your decisions about that, even if the reviewer didn't like it. Don't like reviews at all? Fine, fire up twitch or youtube and watch someone else play the game.
Why?

I can't think of anything more boring than watching someone else play a video game.
  #431  
Old 09-02-2016, 06:53 AM
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No, the only person who knows if you did enjoy the game is you. You don't know for sure if you will enjoy it. But you can get a better idea by reading reviews and watching gameplay videos.
  #432  
Old 09-02-2016, 07:17 AM
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No, the only person who knows if you did enjoy the game is you. You don't know for sure if you will enjoy it. But you can get a better idea by reading reviews and watching gameplay videos.
How typically pedantic.

I honestly have no interest in watching game play videos, the idea sounds batshit boring, but mainly if I'm going to play a game I'd like to go in fresh without having seen anything. Reviews have their uses but I'm not about to hold off on buying a game I like the concept of just because someone else might not like it.

Edit: It's not like I have a bad track record with buying games. I have very few dud games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Beef
What is whining or entitled about anything I'm saying? Entitled to what? A world where publishers care about the quality of their product? A world where people actually see what they're buying before they buy it?
It's like you really really care about this, but see, I don't give a shit about it. I don't care what people spend their money on or when they spend it. I don't care if a million people buy a bad game. So when you seem to really really care about it, it just seems weird, especially for a game you haven't played. This is the entertainment industry, little bits of fluff to keep us amused briefly. I don't get your fervour.

What I care a little bit about, is someone I don't know questioning me on my spending habits, which is why I keep replying, against my better judgement.

Last edited by Richard Pearse; 09-02-2016 at 07:18 AM.
  #433  
Old 09-02-2016, 07:28 AM
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The world building isn't that strong - there's not enough wonder and feeling of a live universe to really feel like you're a part of something big.
With all the text-heaviness and the odd sparseness of the game that you're talking about here, I tend to assimilate the experience more to a game like The Witness than to Elite Dangerous. It's not a live universe, it's a carefully crafted, message-laden experience.

That, yes okay, kind of advertised itself as a live universe OKAY?!
  #434  
Old 09-02-2016, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Quoth Richard Pearse:

Reviews have their uses but I'm not about to hold off on buying a game I like the concept of just because someone else might not like it.
But that at least requires you to know what the concept of the game is, and the actual concept of NMS isn't quite what it was advertised to be.
  #435  
Old 09-02-2016, 10:02 AM
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I don't care if a million people buy a bad game.
I do, though, because they use sales figures as a reason to justify their next project, and if they can get away with it once, they'll try again.
  #436  
Old 09-02-2016, 10:44 AM
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I don't need to speak for him, but I can understand why SenorBeef is talking about this: NMS is hardly a business-as-usual game release. It has been a remarkable failure, the most striking in years. It may have a long-lasting effect on both gamers and the industry. It may change the nature of game marketing and pre-orders. It's therefore absolutely worth discussing, whether or not you're someone who has played the game.

(Senor Beef, I notice, has not personally attacked anyone for liking NMS.)

Last edited by Knorf; 09-02-2016 at 10:45 AM.
  #437  
Old 09-02-2016, 11:02 AM
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It's interesting to talk about. The personal anger over it, from either side, seems unnecessary. I definitely appreciate threads that discuss games, as they're one of the main ways I find new games to play, or decide which games to avoid. I don't appreciate folks that get personal about it.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 09-02-2016 at 11:03 AM.
  #438  
Old 09-02-2016, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Teuton View Post
I do, though, because they use sales figures as a reason to justify their next project, and if they can get away with it once, they'll try again.
And they'll get skewered. As an independent developer spending a lot of personal time promoting the game, Sean Murray and Grant Duncan are forever linked to No Man's Sky, and the gross over-promising and under-delivering attached. As the head guy in a such a massive flop, a large portion of gaming sites and such will immediately recall THESE GUYS as the ones who were in charge of THAT GAME. That stigma is gonna follow them for years. I don't think they intended to put out a bad game (and I still enjoy it), but they let the hype get out of control, got caught up in it, and ended up putting out wishes as guarantees, which led to MORE hype, and then incredible disappointment.

For reference, my two most-played games are DOTA 2 (same basic idea and gameplay since the original launched in 2003), and Dwarf Fortress (a.k.a. "Masochism Extreme"). NMS is a good time waster that doesn't require much thought, reflexes, skill, or worry. You can't permanently lose/die, there's no competition for resources, no win/lose scenario, and no BIG SURPRISES (like Minecraft's creepers or Subnautica's reaper leviathans). I can piddle around when I get bored, explore, name random things how I like, and then wander off to do something else.
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:59 PM
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And they'll get skewered.
Yeah, this is sort of my point, backing up SenorBeef. People in this thread are asking why people are being so anti the game, when it's a decent game for them regardless of the hype or promises made. But I don't think we can let the hype machine get away with such utter blatant lies.

And, as has been pointed out with the plummeting player figures (24 hour peak of 7436!) and reports of mass refunding, they have not got away with it.
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Old 09-02-2016, 02:08 PM
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And, as has been pointed out with the plummeting player figures (24 hour peak of 7436!) and reports of mass refunding, they have not got away with it.
They did make a ton of money before the backlash started. I really doubt the majority of buyers got a refund, most people probably played 5-8 hours, realized it's not going to get better and just gave up. Whether it was all worth it for them is hard to say but at least money-wise I imagine they made profit.
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Old 09-02-2016, 03:00 PM
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The couple of guys who actually made this game might end up stigmatized by it, but they're not the only, or probably even primary, ones to blame. Because the next time, it won't be them again: Sony or some other big publisher will latch onto some other indie developer, and hype their game into the stratosphere, and push them to release before it's ready, for too high a price, and people will probably go out and pre-order that game, too. That's the sort of repeat performance folks like SenorBeef are trying to avoid.
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Old 09-02-2016, 03:30 PM
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I, for one, am grateful to threads like this, and to the attention being called to these issues. I was on board the hype train, ready to dive in on day one. In fact, I'm fairly glad the PC release was delayed a few days, as I got to find out what a massive turd this turned out to be. I have limited game-purchasing dollars, and if I had blown that on something that turned out to be a mile wide (kajillions of planets and life forms!) and an inch deep (they are all essentially the same!), despite what was promised, I would have been livid.

I also find the player base statistics to be interesting, almost a population study. We are getting raw numbers, that we can combine with the general feelings of anger about marketing deception prevalent on the web, and see the actual impact of a failed game release play out in real time.

I know that there are those who are enjoying it, but do you honestly think that this dropoff in players is just the result of anti-hype on the internet? If that was the case, Nickelback would be relegated to the dumpster for all of the internet-hate they get, but it hasn't stopped them from selling 50-million+ records. Instead, in the real world, there is something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with the game that is causing MOST of the players to drop it like a hot potato.
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Old 09-02-2016, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
The couple of guys who actually made this game might end up stigmatized by it, but they're not the only, or probably even primary, ones to blame. Because the next time, it won't be them again: Sony or some other big publisher will latch onto some other indie developer, and hype their game into the stratosphere, and push them to release before it's ready, for too high a price, and people will probably go out and pre-order that game, too. That's the sort of repeat performance folks like SenorBeef are trying to avoid.
Are there specific steps that might plausibly lead to this not happening again?

As I see it, there's a risk-reward system in place that's pretty self-regulating. Some folks are willing to take the risk to buy a game based on pre-release buzz. They're going to pay a lot of money, take a big risk; their reward is that they get to play a game as soon as it's released, and sometimes they get to be part of a super-exciting conversation among those early adopters.

Other folks, like me, rarely buy a game until it's been out for a few months (or even several years). We get to buy games for cheap, and we get to screen games based on reviews from professionals and from Dopers. In exchange, we give up the ability to join in that exciting new-game conversation; by the time I'm talking about a game, most folks have moved on past it.

I don't expect we'll ever reach the point where we're past games being overhyped.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:04 PM
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It's interesting to talk about. The personal anger over it, from either side, seems unnecessary. I definitely appreciate threads that discuss games, as they're one of the main ways I find new games to play, or decide which games to avoid. I don't appreciate folks that get personal about it.
I also find it interesting to talk about. If one poster in this thread had said "gee that turned out to be a flop, it's disappointing to see the hype machine working like this", I'd probably agree with him and move on, but thats not how he goes about it, he's obnoxious.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post

As I see it, there's a risk-reward system in place that's pretty self-regulating. Some folks are willing to take the risk to buy a game based on pre-release buzz. They're going to pay a lot of money, take a big risk; their reward is that they get to play a game as soon as it's released, and sometimes they get to be part of a super-exciting conversation among those early adopters.
.
I don't see any risk/reward. If you pre-order and don't like it, you return the game for a refund, no risk.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:21 PM
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What's the point of pre-order these days? I could see if the game were only available on disc and your local game store might sell out, but if you can dl the game, why pre-order?
  #447  
Old 09-02-2016, 06:25 PM
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I also find it interesting to talk about. If one poster in this thread had said "gee that turned out to be a flop, it's disappointing to see the hype machine working like this", I'd probably agree with him and move on, but thats not how he goes about it, he's obnoxious.
That's pretty much exactly what I've done. I've said that this game was a product of hype delivering preorders and then failing to deliver on the promises. I'm not getting personal with people. I'm not saying "you're an idiot because you like this game" - but I am arguing against things I perceive to be simply incorrect like "oh we got everything we were promised, so there's nothing to be disappointed about"

What I did notice is that while the majority of people thought the game was crap and stopped playing it, a core group seemed to be so invested in their hype that they actually sort of doubled down and become cult-like. There's more of that on the NMS subreddit and other forums than here, but there is some of that here - for example, your insistence that making sure you don't expose yourself to anything about the game - no reviews, no word of mouth, no footage - just throw your money in and go in blind, that's the best way - seems to me like rather than admitting it's a poor decision to throw $60 at an overpromised game from a company with no track record but rather than admit that, you've decided to double down and say that's the best way to try to experience something. It's pretty bizarre.

There's also an issue where people don't think "this is a product I like", but rather "I'm the sort of person who likes this product" - it's not specific to this game, it's the weird tendency of people to become over-identified with their preferences. So people take criticism of something personally, because they're not taking it as criticism of the product, but criticism of their identity.

I honestly would've preferred this game to be 80% as good as it could be, to deliver on most of its promises - or hell, even exceed them, because it's a game I would've liked to have played. But the marketing and hype for this game was way out of control. People got insanely overhyped for an overly ambitious game with a small team with absolutely no track record which is hard to believe could've delivered on it. As a $60 AAA game, it somehow outsold the vast majority of games that ever come out - day one sales in the millions - entirely based on people getting overhyped and commiting their money before they saw if it was actually good.

So if it was going to fail, I want it to fail catastrophically. I want to put an end towards publishers thinking a marketing push, hype, a review embargo, and an assload of day one sales can make failures profitable. I want to stop consumers from rewarding that sort of behavior. I want them to start caring if the games they make are good or are ready for release. So if this game is an utter catastrophic failure - which it is, undoubtedly, even if you personally manage to like it - that has the highest chance of making people step back and ask themselves if they really want to do this same thing next time. The bigger and more stark the failure, the more likely this is to occur.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 09-02-2016 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:37 PM
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Does Hamlet know he's up? I want to say we may have to shrink to an 8 hour rule for the rest of the draft, but that's rough if the picks happen to line up between like midnight and 8am, a plausible time for someone to be sleeping the whole way. But we are really dragging ass and no one is sending pre-picks to Varlos.
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:23 PM
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Pissing contests over wording in posts about whether a feature was promised or just sort-of promised seem to be skipping over the objective fact that an unprecedented number of buyers are demanding refunds. I cannot think of any video game launch in recent history where so many gamers are demanding their money back. Even "Spore" wasn't this bad.

Now, we all have a right to our own opinions but the fact is that there is way more opinion along the lines of "This game is a scam to such a degree that I will go to the trouble of getting my money back" than is normally the case with video games. So one of two things is going on here:

1. People who play video games suddenly became insanely irrational and picky the day "No Man's Sky" was released, or

2. There is, in fact, something wrong with the game.

I find Option 2 a lot more likely.
I think it's a combination of points one and two, personally. Gamers as a group are legendary for being irrational and picky (crossing over to entitled in many instances) and while we like to say "No, that's just an unpleasant stereotype" we all know it's one with a pretty solid basis in reality.

However, the contents of the game aren't completely what was alluded to either, so people being disappointed in the game isn't an unreasonable response - but having actually played the game, I can say it's not terrible, it's a perfectly decent game and really isn't hugely different in many respects to most of the other open-world survival games on the market at the moment.

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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
What's the point of pre-order these days? I could see if the game were only available on disc and your local game store might sell out, but if you can dl the game, why pre-order?
This was addressed earlier in the thread.

Last edited by Martini Enfield; 09-02-2016 at 07:24 PM.
  #450  
Old 09-02-2016, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
your insistence that making sure you don't expose yourself to anything about the game - no reviews, no word of mouth, no footage - just throw your money in and go in blind, that's the best way - seems to me like rather than admitting it's a poor decision to throw $60 at an overpromised game from a company with no track record but rather than admit that, you've decided to double down and say that's the best way to try to experience something. It's pretty bizarre.
I haven't said other people should do that. All I've said is that I knew I was buying the game because I liked the concept, so I put the order in for it. I read a little of the hype but I don't really like reading marketing hype so I generally stayed clear. I don't watch videos of people playing games because it is dead boring and doesn't tell me anything about whether I would like the game, it also takes away from the experience of playing a good game for the first time. If I was to read/watch a review it would have been the Zero Punctuation one, and I don't think that would have stopped me from buying it, Yahtzee was quite fair on the game.

I read reviews when I have limited funds and am choosing between a number of games, in this case my funds were not limited and I could afford to buy on a whim.

I don't see how it is a poor decision to put $60 into an over promised game when, as you have gleefully pointed out, you can always get a refund if you don't like it. There's no risk in pre-ordering a game. If anything, massive pre-ordering and day one sales followed by massive refunds is better for your cause than if people were more cautious and didn't buy until someone has told them it was ok to. In that scenario a bad game will go largely unnoticed and the developers will probably blame it on poor marketing rather than people just not liking it.

Finally, I don't actually dislike the game, so I certainly don't feel like my money was wasted anymore than when I have bought any other game.



Quote:
So if it was going to fail, I want it to fail catastrophically. I want to put an end towards publishers thinking a marketing push, hype, a review embargo, and an assload of day one sales can make failures profitable. I want to stop consumers from rewarding that sort of behavior. I want them to start caring if the games they make are good or are ready for release. So if this game is an utter catastrophic failure - which it is, undoubtedly, even if you personally manage to like it - that has the highest chance of making people step back and ask themselves if they really want to do this same thing next time. The bigger and more stark the failure, the more likely this is to occur.
But it won't do that so why get so worked up about it?

I think your opinions on marketing and hype are largely valid, but the way you are so strident about it grates. You need to gain some perspective. It is just a game.
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