Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:16 PM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,840

No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!)


Haberdash and Terr have been pushing this one lately. It's annoying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haberdash View Post
Two things left-wingers don't like in 2015: Jews, and saying anything negative about Muslims.
Oyyyyy.

I know that there's a lot of anti-Israeli stuff in the present international communist movement, but that's rooted in Israel's ties to Anglo-Saxon imperialism. Remember that Marx himself (and Maxim Litvinov, and lots of other early Communists) came from a Jewish background. Communism isn't intrinsically anti-Semitic, or against any race, really.

And once you get to the non-Marxist radical left, the center left, and the social justice movement, anti-Judaism starts having even bigger problems. Young USA commies may be leery of Bernie Sanders's Zionist biases, but it's not like he's much more Zionist than a center-right Christian politician would be in that country, and he's a lot closer to the left and its youth movements on...basically everything.

Now, obviously, Europe is not the USA, nor even the UK. Maybe a huge chunk of the European Left really is saying, "Oh, those shitty Jews!" I don't know.

But as a Yank, I find it disturbing that someone from the English-speaking world would accuse the Left in general of being anti-Jewish. You realize that a lot of the present heroes, leaders, and celebrities of the "Anglo-Saxon" left are Jews, yeah? At least in economics (which has a lot of members of the Tribe all along the left-right spectrum), Robert Reich, Joseph Stiglitz, & Paul Krugman are pretty big deals and broadly beloved. On television, you have popular centrists/center-leftists like Rachel Maddow and Jon Stewart.

Again, maybe a tiny bit less so in the UK.

But it's incredibly offensive to say, "The Right are the great Friends of the Jews unlike those filthy Leftists." Students of history remember what the Granddaddies of present billionaires and Bushes did in the 1930's. The Left may be weak, hypocritical, and confused, but it isn't Jew-hating in general.

Does that mean that leftists love orthodox Jews and religious Jewish subcultures? Oh, well, not necessarily. Are they spitting at secular society and slandering liberalism? Then we'll be annoyed with them as we would with Christians or Muslims who do such.

So, what's going on here?
  #2  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:18 PM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoke View Post
Yeah, could those of you who want to turn this into the 1000th Straight Dope thread on pernicious anti-Semitism please start a separate thread?
No, of course not. How else could we remind people that Bernie Sanders is a filthy, filthy Jew (not that we hate the Jewish people, no!) whose true loyalty is to the Zionist entity (although he denies it, & it's racist to even bring it up).

I'm bemused that it's apparently anti-Semitic to suggest that someone who lived in Israel might have Israeli citizenship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
She should have apologized immediately once Sanders corrected her. "Immediately" meaning the next words out of her mouth, not "But you're on some random list somewhere that must be accurate!".

And the anti-Semitism in the statement seems pretty clear to me. The implication of "You're an Israeli citizen..." is "...and you are therefore on the side of the Evil Jews". There's a reason that the list-maker only included politicians they don't like, and why they picked Israel as the nation to have the dual citizenship.
[sarcasm] So you admit that Israelis are by definition evil, and to have Israeli citizenship would make one an enemy of mankind. And--Josh Marshall backs this up--that this is not only your opinion, but that of all informed persons, and necessarily both Mrs Rehm's intention and Mr Sanders's interpretation. So the fact that she didn't immediately apologize for this horrible insult to Bernie Sanders makes her an enemy of all the good non-Israeli Jews [look, I don't entirely understand this train of thought] in America.

Good, glad we are clear on that. When do we bomb Tel Aviv? [/sarcasm]

It is possible that someone just assumed that someone who lived on a kibbutz back in the day had Israeli citizenship.
  #3  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:55 PM
D'Anconia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea
On television, you have popular centrists/center-leftists like Rachel Maddow and Jon Stewart.
By what measure is Rachel Maddow "popular"?

http://deadline.com/2015/03/msnbc-ra...nn-1201402274/
  #4  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:11 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 24,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post

It is possible that someone just assumed that someone who lived on a kibbutz back in the day had Israeli citizenship.
That's like assuming that people who spent their junior year abroad in France are automatically French citizens. Lots of people volunteered on kibbutzim at some point in their lives - from Jerry Seinfeld to Helen Mirren, from Sigourney Weaver to Bob Hoskins - but that doesn't mean that they immigrated to Israel. Israel doesn't just hand out citizenships like party favors. Like anywhere else, and more so than in most places, citizenship comes with a ton of rights and obligations, and is not something to be entered into lightly.
  #5  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:30 AM
Rune is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
That's like assuming that people who spent their junior year abroad in France are automatically French citizens. Lots of people volunteered on kibbutzim at some point in their lives - from Jerry Seinfeld to Helen Mirren, from Sigourney Weaver to Bob Hoskins - but that doesn't mean that they immigrated to Israel.
It used to be very common from ordinary Danes to take a year in kibbutz in Israel. Even until some times in the 90s. I don't think it happens much anymore.

Anyway, certainly a valid argument can be made that the leftwing is anti-Semitic. In the absurdly, disproportionate to size of problem and seriousness of transgressions and situation, continual condemnation of Israel over all the other problems of the world. I especially like how when people were fleeing from ISIS into Israel, they still found this to be somehow Israel's fault.

But by the same measure the rightwing would be Semitic-fetishists. So it appears the world is set upon by by the ills of (mainly European) leftwing anti-Semitics and (mainly US) rightwing Semitic-fetishists. The rest of us are in the middle saying WTF dudes?! Can't we just leave the fucking Jews outta it? I'm sure the fucking Jews have it the same way.
  #6  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:51 AM
up_the_junction is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: South London
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
No, the Left is not anti-Semitic (Good grief!)
LOL. I remember when anyone who disagreed with Ariel Sharron was anti-Semitic.

Treatment of the Palestinians reminds me of how the British state viewed the Irish for much of that abusive, murderous history.
  #7  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:59 AM
up_the_junction is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: South London
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post

Now, obviously, Europe is not the USA, nor even the UK. Maybe a huge chunk of the European Left really is saying, "Oh, those shitty Jews!" I don't know.
I think it's probably fair to say a large chunk of Europe has huge sympathies with a population that has been effectively stateless refugees for 70 years, and that is now collectively and fundamentally traumatised.
  #8  
Old 08-03-2015, 04:03 AM
Frank is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 20,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
I remember when anyone who disagreed with Ariel Sharron was anti-Semitic.
Now it seems to be that anyone who disagrees with Netanyahu is anti-Semitic. So I guess, along with the Left, that includes half his country.
  #9  
Old 08-03-2015, 04:18 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 24,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
Now it seems to be that anyone who disagrees with Netanyahu is anti-Semitic. So I guess, along with the Left, that includes half his country.
Yeah, some idiots always say that sort of thing. You just have to ignore them.

That doesn't mean that anti-Semitism doesn't actually exist. And while I'm pretty sure you won't find much of it in the left (at least compared to the right), the problem is that many leftists have allied themselves, whether officially or by association, with organizations that actually are anti-Semitic, while at the same time being in no way, shape or form left-wing. And that's the problem. I can be reasonably certain that the leftist opposing Israel isn't an anti-Semite, but seeing as the Hamas supporter protesting next to him probably is, how is there any effective difference?

In short, left-wingers aren't anti-Semitic, but all too often they serve as useful idiots for right-wingers who are.

Last edited by Alessan; 08-03-2015 at 04:19 AM.
  #10  
Old 08-03-2015, 05:50 AM
Captain Amazing is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 25,138
Just for the record, Rachel Maddow's not Jewish. Her paternal grandfather was, but none of the rest of her grandparents, and she was raised Catholic.
  #11  
Old 08-03-2015, 07:00 AM
chappachula is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
the problem is that many leftists have allied themselves with organizations that actually are anti-Semitic. I can be reasonably certain that the leftist opposing Israel isn't an anti-Semite, but seeing as the Hamas supporter protesting next to him probably is, how is there any effective difference?

left-wingers aren't anti-Semitic, but all too often they serve as useful idiots for right-wingers who are.
Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your post. If you have to ask "how is there any effective difference" between A and B, then A is the same as B.

Leftists who oppose Israel are often anti-semitic.
They just leave it to others to do the dirty work of actually killing the Jews, while they stand by and cheer from the sidelines.
A rough comparison is the attitude of many "nice" whites in the deep South in the 1930's...they didn't actually join the KKK, but they stood alongside and enjoyed watching the lynchings.

A leftist may not want to admit to himself that he's a bigot. But when he stands alongside Hamas, and enjoys watching terrorists shoot at Jewish nursery schools--- he's not just a useful idiot...he's an anti-semitic bigot.
  #12  
Old 08-03-2015, 07:00 AM
adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,896
As with any charges of bigotry, you have to define the term. What is anti-semitism? If you're against much of Israeli policy, you probably aren't. But, if you:

1) Don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist
2) Actively side with Israel's enemies
3) Believe that Israel is uniquely evil for its human rights abuses
4) Believe that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace
5) Use the word "Zionist" in ways indistinguishable from "Jews"
6) Want aid to Israel cut off but not aid to its neighbors

then you're probably anti-semetic.
  #13  
Old 08-03-2015, 09:44 AM
andros is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Dejagore
Posts: 10,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
As with any charges of bigotry, you have to define the term. What is anti-semitism? If you're against much of Israeli policy, you probably aren't. But, if you:

1) Don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist
2) Actively side with Israel's enemies
3) Believe that Israel is uniquely evil for its human rights abuses
4) Believe that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace
5) Use the word "Zionist" in ways indistinguishable from "Jews"
6) Want aid to Israel cut off but not aid to its neighbors

then you're probably anti-semetic.
Fair enough. I'd be willing to provisionally accept this if I thought you could then provide evidence that "the left," in aggregate, hold those positions.
  #14  
Old 08-03-2015, 09:48 AM
andros is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Dejagore
Posts: 10,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by chappachula View Post
Leftists who oppose Israel are often anti-semitic.
Great assertion, with no basis in fact.

Quote:
A leftist may not want to admit to himself that he's a bigot. But when he stands alongside Hamas, and enjoys watching terrorists shoot at Jewish nursery schools--- he's not just a useful idiot...he's an anti-semitic bigot.
Wow, that guy is a complete asshole. But..."a leftist?" Which one would that be? And you're somehow equating this supposed leftist to all leftists...I suppose you can back it up with actual evidence?

Oh, wait, no you can't. Because it's a stupid, stupid argument.
  #15  
Old 08-03-2015, 09:49 AM
Diceman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Suburbs of Detroit, MI
Posts: 9,859
It definitely seems to me that a large faction on the left sympathizes with the Palestinians, to the extent of being apologists for Hamas and their ilk. At the very least, they are anti-Semitic by association.
  #16  
Old 08-03-2015, 10:11 AM
andros is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Dejagore
Posts: 10,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diceman View Post
It definitely seems to me that a large faction on the left sympathizes with the Palestinians, to the extent of being apologists for Hamas and their ilk. At the very least, they are anti-Semitic by association.
Confirmation bias is a harsh mistress.

And I'm not sure you want to go down the rabbit hole of "if you support some group, in any way, you support everything that group does and says."
  #17  
Old 08-03-2015, 10:35 AM
Shayna is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: RedondObama Beach, CA
Posts: 9,807
As a Jewish Lefty who reads a lot of Left-Wing blogs, Facebook pages and news sites and folows about 2,700 people on Twitter, almost entirely Lefties, I can assure you the vitriolic hatred of Jews from the Left is very real and very disturbing. The filth that I have read, the lies, the propaganda, and the personal attacks spewed at me would leave you speechless. Sorry, but it's true.

Last edited by Shayna; 08-03-2015 at 10:36 AM. Reason: missed a spot.
  #18  
Old 08-03-2015, 10:49 AM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 40,761
The Left isn't immune to anti-Semitism, but that hardly makes it a distinguishing characteristic.

Last edited by TriPolar; 08-03-2015 at 10:54 AM. Reason: damnit! why is distingush spelled with a 'q'? and why didn't i write "isn't" the first time?
  #19  
Old 08-03-2015, 10:52 AM
andros is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Dejagore
Posts: 10,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
The Left isn't immune to anti-Semitism, but that hardly makes it a distinguishing characteristic.
This.

Shayna, I don't disagree at all. Hatred knows no ideology but its own, and Jew-hating scumbags are all too plentiful across the board.

But the idea that "the left" is essentially anti-Semitic is fucking absurd.
  #20  
Old 08-03-2015, 11:31 AM
up_the_junction is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: South London
Posts: 4,746
It's not hatred of Jews generally, it's hatred of Israeli state policies.

Some people might be confused about that distinction - on both sides, some even genuinely.
  #21  
Old 08-03-2015, 11:42 AM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
But as a Yank, I find it disturbing that someone from the English-speaking world would accuse the Left in general of being anti-Jewish. You realize that a lot of the present heroes, leaders, and celebrities of the "Anglo-Saxon" left are Jews, yeah? At least in economics (which has a lot of members of the Tribe all along the left-right spectrum), Robert Reich, Joseph Stiglitz, & Paul Krugman are pretty big deals and broadly beloved. On television, you have popular centrists/center-leftists like Rachel Maddow and Jon Stewart.
That's about as valid as denying Christian anti-Semitism by saying that a lot of Christian heroes/founders/saints were Jewish.
  #22  
Old 08-03-2015, 11:51 AM
MaxTheVool is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 11,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
That's about as valid as denying Christian anti-Semitism by saying that a lot of Christian heroes/founders/saints were Jewish.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Those "historical" figures started out as Jews, because they were born before the glorious word of Jesus could possibly have reached them, and then they SAW THE LIGHT AND CONVERTED.


As for this thread, it is exactly correct. I'm a liberal person living in a large vocal liberal family in a liberal community with liberal friends, and the amount of anti-semitism among all the people I encounter, and all of their friends-of-friends (as measured scientifically via Facebook) is close to absolute zero. In fact, there's far more complaining-about-people-criticizing-Israel than there is criticizing-Israel.
  #23  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:01 PM
YogSothoth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,000
I find it less than convincing that the right-winger's professed love of Israel ultimately comes from the expectation that they are being used as a channel to usher in Jesus's return. But hey, maybe they can prove me wrong. Maybe tomorrow a bunch of evangelical fundies will say that Jesus was a false prophet and we still have at least a few hundred years between now and when the real messiah shows up. Maybe they'll start converting to Judaism any second now
  #24  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:05 PM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
That's a ridiculous comparison. Those "historical" figures started out as Jews, because they were born before the glorious word of Jesus could possibly have reached them, and then they SAW THE LIGHT AND CONVERTED.
Did Jesus convert to Christianity?
  #25  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:08 PM
MaxTheVool is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 11,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Did Jesus convert to Christianity?
Kinda
  #26  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:22 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Plenty of people on the left are anti-Semitic. Plenty of people on the right are, as well. (Google "cuckservative" for a recent outpouring of anti-Semitic and racist sentiment on the right.) It's troubling when criticisms of Israel are tagged as "anti-Semitic," but it's also troubling when criticisms of Israel are anti-Semitic. Distinguishing the two can be quite difficult.
  #27  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:28 PM
Sitnam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
It's not hatred of Jews generally, it's hatred of Israeli state policies.

Some people might be confused about that distinction - on both sides, some even genuinely.
This.

A person with the bumper sticker "Wherever I stand. I stand with Israel." is someone I just know I'm going to have major disagreements with and it has fuck all to do with their ethnic or religious background.
  #28  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:29 PM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Plenty of people on the left are anti-Semitic. Plenty of people on the right are, as well. (Google "cuckservative" for a recent outpouring of anti-Semitic and racist sentiment on the right.) It's troubling when criticisms of Israel are tagged as "anti-Semitic," but it's also troubling when criticisms of Israel are anti-Semitic. Distinguishing the two can be quite difficult.

read that article from the British "Socialist Worker" newspaper.

If foolsguinea et al don't find that anti-Semitic, then there is a basic disagreement on what anti-Semitism is.
  #29  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:30 PM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 59,251
If leftists are antisemitic and Canada is a more leftist country than.the U.S., we'd expect to see more antisemitism on Canada than in the U.S.

Now, if the premise is actually that left wing Americans tend to be antisemitic, at least you're starting from a position that is less obviously wrong.
  #30  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:34 PM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
As for leftist anti-Zionism vs. anti-Semitism, it is best summed up by Nathan Weinstock, a leftist French activist who wrote the book "Zionism: False Messiah" in the 60s. This is what he thinks now:

"I have prohibited my publisher from reissuing Zionism - False Messiah. Let me add that, while I naively believed - an error of youth - that this book could fuel a constructive discussion leading to Israeli-Palestinian coexistence, I came to realise that this had been unforgivable naivety on my part: the book served only to salve the conscience of avowed and unconscious anti-Semites."
  #31  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:36 PM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
And of course, Benny Morris, the revisionist leftist historian whom leftists used to love:

"The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."
  #32  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:38 PM
marshmallow is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,764
A lot of American intellectuals are Jewish. When they attack Israel the right will accuse them of being self-hating Jews. Kinda funny.

I've read a decent amount of blogs from all over the political spectrum and I observe more obvious anti-semitism on the right. Most white nationalist communities either hate the Jews or see them as what's undermining the West. I rarely see such rhetoric from the left. Usually it's focused on Israel policies. Right political culture in general isn't a fan of Hollywood or New York.

Dog whistles:

- liberal Hollywood
- greedy Wall Street bankers (the left uses this more though)
- East coast elites
- Bolsheviks

The left allies themselves with Palestinians not to stick it to the Jews in particular but because they love being seen as helping oppressed groups and underdogs. Politics makes strange bed fellows though, when you see liberals who will one moment viciously attack fundamentalist Christianity but then rush to defend fundamentalist Muslims when they're doing worse things. It's understandable, you see, because they've suffered the slings and arrows of Western imperialism. You do see some noteworthy libs attacking Muslims as well, though they get a lot of pushback when they do.
  #33  
Old 08-03-2015, 01:32 PM
YogSothoth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,000
The general rule is that when liberals are impinging on someone's integrity, they don't tend to blame it on their race while conservatives do that by design. Charges of liberal antisemitism is silly and shows that some posters really really have a problem with seeing their own flaws in their opponents. "I do it, so liberals must do it too!" they think to themselves.
  #34  
Old 08-03-2015, 02:41 PM
Shayna is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: RedondObama Beach, CA
Posts: 9,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post

It's not hatred of Jews generally, it's hatred of Israeli state policies.

Some people might be confused about that distinction - on both sides, some even genuinely.
You can couch it all you want: It's antisemitism. Every time some propaganda arm of the Palestinian cause spreads a hateful lie about Israel, my Twitter feed and Facebook wall light up like a fucking Christmas tree, pun intended, with the most despicable filth about Jews you can even imagine. Not Israel, Jews. All from the Left. Just because one's extended family doesn't exhibit antisemitism doesn't mean it's only out there in small or fringe numbers. You probably don't notice it so much because you aren't Jewish so it doesn't really jump out at you off the screen or into your ears like it does for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
F
Plenty of people on the left are anti-Semitic. Plenty of people on the right are, as well. (Google "cuckservative" for a recent outpouring of anti-Semitic and racist sentiment on the right.) It's troubling when criticisms of Israel are tagged as "anti-Semitic," but it's also troubling when criticisms of Israel are anti-Semitic. Distinguishing the two can be quite difficult.
No. Stop equating Isreal as a country with its current fucked up leadership. That's like tarring all of America because Dick Cheney was an evil monster who temporarily had the reins.

Last edited by Shayna; 08-03-2015 at 02:43 PM.
  #35  
Old 08-03-2015, 02:52 PM
elucidator is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 60,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
And of course, Benny Morris, the revisionist leftist historian whom leftists used to love:

"The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."
Who the hell is Benny Morris, and when did I love him? Assuming, of course, that I pass muster for your definition of "leftist"?
  #36  
Old 08-03-2015, 02:58 PM
TriPolar is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rhode island
Posts: 40,761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
You can couch it all you want: It's antisemitism. Every time some propaganda arm of the Palestinian cause spreads a hateful lie about Israel, my Twitter feed and Facebook wall light up like a fucking Christmas tree, pun intended, with the most despicable filth about Jews you can even imagine. Not Israel, Jews. All from the Left. Just because one's extended family doesn't exhibit antisemitism doesn't mean it's only out there in small or fringe numbers. You probably don't notice it so much because you aren't Jewish so it doesn't really jump out at you off the screen or into your ears like it does for me.



No. Stop equating Isreal as a country with its current fucked up leadership. That's like tarring all of America because Dick Cheney was an evil monster who temporarily had the reins.
Yet you are tarring the entire Left based on the way some of them act.

I don't Twit or Face, how do these things light up? Why are people sending their hateful remarks to you?
  #37  
Old 08-03-2015, 02:59 PM
Sitnam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
You can couch it all you want: It's antisemitism.
No, it's not. If you believe anyone who criticises the nation of Israel is only doing it because they hate Jews you live a miserable fantasy of your own invention.
  #38  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:21 PM
Trinopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 22,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
. . . No. Stop equating Isreal as a country with its current fucked up leadership. That's like tarring all of America because Dick Cheney was an evil monster who temporarily had the reins.
This is a pretty important distinction, and a defense for many on the left. One can oppose some of Israel's national political policies and practices, without having any animosity toward Judaism, either as a theological or ethnic group.

Criticizing Israel is not always anti-Semitic, any more than criticizing the U.S. would be automatically anti-Christian or even anti-American. I love my country (U.S.) but it has done a lot of really bad things. The bad decisions made by the leadership of the governing political party of the U.S., Israel, or any other country may be completely independent of any religious or ethnic content.

(And, yeah, it might also be a horrible example of anti-Semitic bigotry. Both forms of criticism exist in large amounts.)
  #39  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:21 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
No. Stop equating Isreal as a country with its current fucked up leadership. That's like tarring all of America because Dick Cheney was an evil monster who temporarily had the reins.
Joe Schmoe: The US did some horrible things surrounding the Iraq war.

Joe Schmoe: Israel did some horrible things surrounding the Palestinian situation.

In the former case, I feel like no one thinks Joe is an unreasonable hater. In the latter case, I think it's often implied.

I do equate the actions of the leadership of a country with the country. The leadership controls what the country does. If the leadership of the US takes an action, the US has taken the action. If the leadership of Israel takes an action, Israel has taken the action.
  #40  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:29 PM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by chappachula View Post
A leftist may not want to admit to himself that he's a bigot. But when he stands alongside Hamas, and enjoys watching terrorists shoot at Jewish nursery schools--- he's not just a useful idiot...he's an anti-semitic bigot.
That's a sickening characterization, and kind of backwards.

See, I'm turned off by the Israeli mainstream because of seeing photos of young Israelis who enjoy watching Gaza get bombed, and hearing about young Israelis march through Jerusalem shouting "Death to all Arabs." I don't want to participate in or support anti-Arabism. Don't make me out to be someone who wants to kill Jewish babies.

Last edited by foolsguinea; 08-03-2015 at 03:30 PM.
  #41  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:32 PM
Sarahfeena's Avatar
Sarahfeena is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 8,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
You can couch it all you want: It's antisemitism. Every time some propaganda arm of the Palestinian cause spreads a hateful lie about Israel, my Twitter feed and Facebook wall light up like a fucking Christmas tree, pun intended, with the most despicable filth about Jews you can even imagine. Not Israel, Jews. All from the Left. Just because one's extended family doesn't exhibit antisemitism doesn't mean it's only out there in small or fringe numbers. You probably don't notice it so much because you aren't Jewish so it doesn't really jump out at you off the screen or into your ears like it does for me.
I'm not Jewish but I see it all the time and agree with you 100%. I'm a moderate who is liberal on social issues and since I don't align myself with a party I follow a lot of blogs and such on both sides of the aisle. The right by no means has any kind of a monopoly on antisemitism...the criticism of Israel always contains the same buzzwords you hear from any other anti-Semite, and they believe themselves to be justified because of their support of the Palestinians.
  #42  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:35 PM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
As with any charges of bigotry, you have to define the term. What is anti-semitism? If you're against much of Israeli policy, you probably aren't. But, if you:

1) Don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist
2) Actively side with Israel's enemies
3) Believe that Israel is uniquely evil for its human rights abuses
4) Believe that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace
5) Use the word "Zionist" in ways indistinguishable from "Jews"
6) Want aid to Israel cut off but not aid to its neighbors

then you're probably anti-semetic.
Wow, see I think #3-#6 are ridiculous anti-Jewish conspiracy theory ideas. (Well, #5 may just be mental sloppiness, but yeah, mostly.)

But I don't know what a "right to exist" even is. Does Kurdistan have a right to exist? Does whatever Lakota homeland the American Indian Movement wanted to build have a right to exist? Does Ukraine?

And "actively siding with Israel's enemies"? That's politics, adaher. If I actively side with Planned Parenthood over the Catholic bishops, that doesn't make me a an anti-Papist bigot. If I actively sided with Germany in WWI, that wouldn't make me anti-French, would it?
  #43  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:45 PM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
read that article from the British "Socialist Worker" newspaper.

If foolsguinea et al don't find that anti-Semitic, then there is a basic disagreement on what anti-Semitism is.
That is indeed pretty messed-up. The writer's perception is definitely stuck in a particular kind of Christian mythological lens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Did Jesus convert to Christianity?
That gets into a contentious argument that would be a hijack. But your point about Christianity becoming virulently anti-Jewish despite its Jewish roots is well-taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
Who the hell is Benny Morris, and when did I love him? Assuming, of course, that I pass muster for your definition of "leftist"?
I remember Garrett Morris (whom I love) and Benny Hill (whom I do not love). I don't remember Benny Morris.
  #44  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:52 PM
Shayna is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: RedondObama Beach, CA
Posts: 9,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Joe Schmoe: The US did some horrible things surrounding the Iraq war.

Joe Schmoe: Israel did some horrible things surrounding the Palestinian situation.

In the former case, I feel like no one thinks Joe is an unreasonable hater. In the latter case, I think it's often implied.

I do equate the actions of the leadership of a country with the country. The leadership controls what the country does. If the leadership of the US takes an action, the US has taken the action. If the leadership of Israel takes an action, Israel has taken the action.
You GROSSLY misrepresent the disgusting, filthy bile spewed about Israel and Jews. No one's walking around politely saying gee we don't agree with Israel's actions on that. That is utterly naive. No, they're spreading fake mutilated children images calling Jews filthy baby killers. Evil murderers commuting genocide (as if they even know what the fuck that word means).

I'm done with this conversation. You don't see it because you don't want to see it. Maybe because it doesn't affect you, I don't know. But I'm not going to go on repeating myself. I've said what I have to say on the matter. You can keep your head buried in the sand all you want but it won't change reality.

Just as the Right is filled to the brim with racists, so is the Left filled to the brim with antisemites.

Enjoy your day. I'm going to go get in the hot tub.
  #45  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:54 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
But I don't know what a "right to exist" even is. Does Kurdistan have a right to exist? Does whatever Lakota homeland the American Indian Movement wanted to build have a right to exist? Does Ukraine?
adaher's not alone in that one. I've encountered this shibboleth elsewhere, and not exclusively from extremists. I'd be curious to know whether it's been around since Israel's founding or whether it's a more recent purported test for antisemitism.
  #46  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:57 PM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Here's an example:

You know how the US left was howling about Israel's actions in the last Gaza conflict (even though US major military experts determined it was in compliance with international laws, and even though US military said that Israel went to "extraordinary lengths" to limit civilian casualties and sent a team to Israel to learn from Israelis their methods?

Today, US and allies are killing hundreds of civilians and children in Syria/Iraq strikes (and those are conservative estimates).

Do you see anything like the level of vitriol and hatred on the left that was directed at Israel then, directed at the US and its allies now? Demonstrations? US/Canadian/Turkish etc. flags burned? That kind of stuff?

No? What is the explanation? I see one - in one case it's the Jooooos. In the other it isn't.
  #47  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:57 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
You can couch it all you want: It's antisemitism. Every time some propaganda arm of the Palestinian cause spreads a hateful lie about Israel, my Twitter feed and Facebook wall light up like a fucking Christmas tree, pun intended, with the most despicable filth about Jews you can even imagine. Not Israel, Jews. All from the Left. Just because one's extended family doesn't exhibit antisemitism doesn't mean it's only out there in small or fringe numbers. You probably don't notice it so much because you aren't Jewish so it doesn't really jump out at you off the screen or into your ears like it does for me.
I guess you're counting here not knowing how Facebook and Twitter work? Because the only reason this is true is that you follow or have "friended" anti-Semites. It tells us nothing about how people generally think, but just about your online habits. (Maybe you want to keep an eye on the horrible people or something?)

I mean, I live in a place where most people are spreading lies about Obama, support the Confederate flag, and even have some definite racist attitudes. But none of that appears on my Facebook. At most, I have one person who will occasionally say political things, but I haven't silenced her because she's kinda refreshing in her lack of Republican groupthink. She hates all that stuff I mentioned, too.

The Internet often creates this artificial feeling that you are seeing the opinions of the general populace, when you really only see the opinions of the people whose opinions you want to see. Just 300 people can overwhelm our brains into thinking everyone thinks a certain way, but that's literally only a 1 in a million opinion (in the U.S.).

I'm also not sure what this has to do with the OP's point, that the Left itself is not anti-Semitic. It's like me saying the Right is racist. I'm sure Terr would love that.
  #48  
Old 08-03-2015, 04:06 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Here's an example:

You know how the US left was howling about Israel's actions in the last Gaza conflict (even though US major military experts determined it was in compliance with international laws, and even though US military said that Israel went to "extraordinary lengths" to limit civilian casualties and sent a team to Israel to learn from Israelis their methods?

Today, US and allies are killing hundreds of civilians and children in Syria/Iraq strikes (and those are conservative estimates).

Do you see anything like the level of vitriol and hatred on the left that was directed at Israel then, directed at the US and its allies now? Demonstrations? US/Canadian/Turkish etc. flags burned? That kind of stuff?

No? What is the explanation? I see one - in one case it's the Jooooos. In the other it isn't.
If I look up Airwars, the non-profit whose work your link is reporting concerning civilian casualties in Iraq and Syria, do you expect that I will find that they are right-wing or left-wing?
  #49  
Old 08-03-2015, 04:07 PM
wonky's Avatar
wonky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DC area
Posts: 30,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shayna View Post
You GROSSLY misrepresent the disgusting, filthy bile spewed about Israel and Jews. No one's walking around politely saying gee we don't agree with Israel's actions on that. That is utterly naive. No, they're spreading fake mutilated children images calling Jews filthy baby killers. Evil murderers commuting genocide (as if they even know what the fuck that word means).

I'm done with this conversation. You don't see it because you don't want to see it. Maybe because it doesn't affect you, I don't know. But I'm not going to go on repeating myself. I've said what I have to say on the matter. You can keep your head buried in the sand all you want but it won't change reality.
I very clearly said that I do see it. I also see that criticizing Israel in small ways can lead to accusations of anti-Semitism by people who are unwilling to try to distinguish between disagreement with a policy and hatred of Jews.

There is absolutely anti-Semitism on the left. There are also people on the left who just disagree with some of Israel's policies, but they get attacked.

As I also said, it can be hard to tell the difference, since anti-Semites will dog-whistle. That doesn't mean that it's a given that if someone says "I don't agree with Israel's current policy X" that they are anti-Semitic.

You used the analogy of Dick Cheney, but I do think Dick Cheney represented America and I do think we are all held accountable for him. His actions as a leader became our actions.

So, to repeat myself: The left definitely has anti-Semites. The left also has some people being called anti-Semitic because they disagree with some policies of Israel. Some people, especially those on the right, lump those both together. I don't see how that is a gross misrepresentation of anything.
  #50  
Old 08-03-2015, 04:09 PM
Terr is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 12,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
If I look up Airwars, the non-profit whose work your link is reporting concerning civilian casualties in Iraq and Syria, do you expect that I will find that they are right-wing or left-wing?
... as I expected, evasion and distraction from my post.

What is your explanation for the lack of 100,000 string leftist-organized demonstrations in multiple countries, spewing hatred and vitriol directed at US / France / Britain?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017