Question about the Trayvon Martin Case?

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Shodan

Do you have a link to a transcript (or video) of George Zimmerman claiming that Martin beat his head against the ground for nearly a full minute? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Shodan

Here you go, from the reporter who had the report leaked to her.

Quote:
Rene Stutzman: "If you believe George Zimmerman's account to police, he was on the ground for a minute getting beat up."

Furthermore, Zimmerman's father has confirmed that story.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Magiver

you compared what I said to the stupidity of claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people.

Huh. Are you trying to argue that it's racist to say that blacks ARE as intelligent as whites?

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Here you go, from the reporter who had the report leaked to her.

Furthermore, Zimmerman's father has confirmed that story.

Thanks, but that is not what I was looking for.

Do you have a link to a transcript (or video) of George Zimmerman claiming that Martin beat his head against the ground for nearly a full minute?

Regards,
Shodan

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

If Zimmerman hadn't moved his head on to the grass, then we would be having a completely different discussion, since we would be trying Martin for Zimmerman's murder.

That's quite an baseless assumption.

[jtgain]

A struggle on the ground lasting a minute does not mean that the full minute was one of non-stop head bashing into concrete. Who knows how many of Martin's blows landed? Maybe Zimmerman got in a few punches and got the upper hand at some point.

[elucidator]

Well, now, that's certainly interesting. Have I got this right, then? Martin is on top of Zimmerman, pinning him to the ground, and Zimmerman moves his head so that it is no longer being impacted onto the concrete?

He has a prehensile neck? Don't know about you guys, but if I were pinned down on my back, I can move my head...or, more importantly, the point where the back of my head rests upon the floor...I can move that maybe two, three inches at most. Side to side, about the only freedom of movement available to me.

How'd he do that?

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by jtgain

A struggle on the ground lasting a minute does not mean that the full minute was one of non-stop head bashing into concrete. Who knows how many of Martin's blows landed? Maybe Zimmerman got in a few punches and got the upper hand at some point.

That would be a signifigantly more plausible story, but that's not remotely consistent with the story Zimmerman told the police or that he's been giving out to the media via his surrogates.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Shodan

Thanks, but that is not what I was looking for.

Do you have a link to a transcript (or video) of George Zimmerman claiming that Martin beat his head against the ground for nearly a full minute?

Regards,
Shodan

Since a transcript or video of his interview with the police hasn't been released to the public that is one of the dumbest attempts at a gotcha question I've ever seen.

However we know what he told his dad which his dad has relayed to the media and Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel gave a detailed description of what Zimmerman told police in the video I linked to earlier.

I recommend all interested in the case watch the video.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by cosmosdan

Do you need the reference to that portion of the law yet again?

Read up on the meaning of "or". Then read the law again.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by cosmosdan

True, and we may never know how the conversation became a fight. The prosecutor claims they have evidence that will come out in the trial, so we shall see what it is and how convincing it is.

OK, I get where you're going with this. Actually, there is an ear witness to this. Both voices were raised prior to this . I'm not sure the prosecution can make the leap on this but that would be the best line of prosecution. It would help immensely if any of the conversation were discernible but that was not reported unless his girlfriend's recount is the beginning of the exchange. From that angle, Martin starts the conversation, Zimmerman answered a question with a question and then something happens that disconnects the phone. If this can be established as the beginning of the fight and shows up in his testimony then we're back to Zimmerman's story and it's accuracy (absent Martin's).

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Since a transcript or video of his interview with the police hasn't been released to the public that is one of the dumbest attempts at a gotcha question I've ever seen.

This is not a gotcha question.

Zimmerman's father's account is not Zimmerman's account. What a reporter alleges is not Zimmerman's account. What Zimmerman says is Zimmerman's account.

If and when the trial begins, we can determine if Zimmerman's father is giving an accurate account of what Zimmerman told him. We will also be able to determine if Zimmerman really claimed, as the reporter alleges, that he was having his head bashed for nearly a minute, or only that the fight lasted for nearly a minute, or that he never made any specific reference to how long his head was bashed and the reporter misstated what she thought he said, or something else.

Regards,
Shodan

[elucidator]

Or that anybody but Zimmerman ever said word one about bashing heads into concrete. We're clear on that right, Macgiver? Your silence may be taken as assent?

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Or that anybody but Zimmerman ever said word one about bashing heads into concrete. We're clear on that right, Macgiver? Your silence may be taken as assent?

Yes, that's what medical evidence is for. The documented wounds are in the right location to be consistent with his story. Do you think the prosecution will be able to dispute this?

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Magiver

Do you think the prosecution will be able to dispute this?

Yes. We have not seen the EMT report yet.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Magiver

... The documented wounds are in the right location to be consistent with his story...

Being upon his head? And these are documented wounds, you say, as compared with undocumented wounds, which we are not obliged to respect as evidence. This other kind, the documented kind, that there's the real shit?

These wounds, they were documented by whom?

....Do you think the prosecution will be able to dispute this?

I think the prosecution in this case is trying to think of excuses to get out of this political shitstorm. Even if they are one hundred percent ethical and scrupulous, somebody's going to think they're lying, and will never vote for them again.

I think they will bargain. I think they will show the defense all their evidence, and plea-bargain down to something like manslaughter. Along with a threat of ninety-nine to life in the Huey Newton wing of the Stateville Prison.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by elucidator

I think the prosecution in this case is trying to think of excuses to get out of this political shitstorm. Even if they are one hundred percent ethical and scrupulous, somebody's going to think they're lying, and will never vote for them again.

I think they will bargain. I think they will show the defense all their evidence, and plea-bargain down to something like manslaughter. Along with a threat of ninety-nine to life in the Huey Newton wing of the Stateville Prison.

I agree that's a strong possibility.

But my instincts tell me that a conviction is a long shot. I guess it comes down to how much of a gamble Zimmerman wants to make. Manslaughter vs a 10% chance of 2nd degree murder conviction. Do you feel luck? Well, do you, punk!?

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by John Mace

I agree that's a strong possibility.

But my instincts tell me that a conviction is a long shot. I guess it comes down to how much of a gamble Zimmerman wants to make. Manslaughter vs a 10% chance of 2nd degree murder conviction. Do you feel luck? Well, do you, punk!?

I think he is banking on the SYG hearing to get out of jail free. If he loses that, I'll bet he takes a plea deal.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by elucidator

I think they will bargain. I think they will show the defense all their evidence, and plea-bargain down to something like manslaughter. Along with a threat of ninety-nine to life in the Huey Newton wing of the Stateville Prison.

Zimmerman finally got himself a smart lawyer, it seems. Manslaughter carries 15 year sentence (or 30 if aggravated). There is no way he'd agree to it on the skimpy-to-none evidence that the prosecution apparently has.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by you with the face

But the ground will still blot up blood. You won't get neat, distinct trickle lines if a hard surface is coming in contact with blood over and over again.

Not necessarily true. If the impact site itself wasnt the same each time, a new wound would be created. The image looks like 2 distinct wounds, not like hamburger (which would indicate multiple impacts on the same area)

His head in that pic reminds me of my attempts to do Jason Pollock style paintings. Dribble some paint on an upright canvas and watch it course straight down. Maybe gently wobble the canvas to the side to get a little effect, but it's still a controlled trickling.

Remember, one lifts the head and drives it down. In this case, Zim was fighting him so it would make sense different impact sites would present

I would be interested to see the splatter marks on the pavement though. Additionally, he is standing when the pic was taken so the blood would drizzle like presented. Sweat, hair, hair follicles, dirt all would create a dynamic bleeding pattern

[elucidator]

Blood on the concrete? Well, yes, sure, but its like hearing someone claim a unicorn gored him up the butt, and asking to see the brown residue on the horn.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Blood on the concrete? Well, yes, sure, but its like hearing someone claim a unicorn gored him up the butt, and asking to see the brown residue on the horn.

There are those who say the blood is staged. Thus, if it was, I sincerely doubt those staging the blood have the forensic knowledge to apply a pattern that is accurate to the injury based on the event staged.

[elucidator]

Its probably escaped your notice, since I've only said it about ten times: the only evidence we have of any head impacting any concrete is Zimmerman's say-so. The fact that this is repeated by others does not lend it any substance. It remains as it was, his word alone.

[crowmanyclouds]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Yes. We have not seen the EMT report yet.

Or the autopsy report.

I'll be struggling to understand how one can repeatedly smash an uncooperative person's head on concrete without injury to one's fingers.

Of course now that we've reduced the number of skull injuries to two, one of which could be explained by falling, and striking one's head on the sidewalk, after being punched in the nose. The other appearing to be a deep scratch or minor cut given the amount of blood and actual appearance of the wound, the kind of wound that would be associated more with the moving of one's own head over an rough surface . . . I'm struggling even more.

CMC fnord!

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds

I'll be struggling to understand how one can repeatedly smash an uncooperative person's head on concrete without injury to one's fingers.

By grabbing his neck, or ears, or the shirt at the shoulders, or pushing down repeatedly on his forehead.

Try it. Lie face-up on the ground. In most individuals, there is space between the back of the neck, and the ground, into which the fingers can fit without being compressed against the ground.

Not particularly difficult.

Regards,
Shodan

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by elucidator

These wounds, they were documented by whom?

The police who were already en-route and would have been on the scene quickly. And the photograph, by the neighbor who was at the scene. And by the EMT's who treated him at the scene. The police and EMT's will either verify the picture for it's accuracy or reject.

Originally Posted by elucidator

I think the prosecution in this case is trying to think of excuses to get out of this political shitstorm. Even if they are one hundred percent ethical and scrupulous, somebody's going to think they're lying, and will never vote for them again.

I think they will bargain. I think they will show the defense all their evidence, and plea-bargain down to something like manslaughter. Along with a threat of ninety-nine to life in the Huey Newton wing of the Stateville Prison.

The prosecution can't "get out" of this political situation. That ship has sailed.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Magiver

The police who were already en-route and would have been on the scene quickly. And the photograph, by the neighbor who was at the scene. And by the EMT's who treated him at the scene. The police and EMT's will either verify the picture for it's accuracy or reject.....

So, if they truly existed, they may very well have been documented. That is not quite the same thing as you repeatedly suggest, that they have already been documented, and such documentation is available.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Magiver

....The prosecution can't "get out" of this political situation. That ship has sailed.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of the political animal.

[gamerunknown]

If Zimmerman were beaten by Martin and their neighbour had the foresight to take a picture before it were* cleaned and treated at the scene, shouldn't the police have had similar foresight?

* Is the second clause subjunctive too? It sounds awkward.

[elucidator]

Fucking English majors.

[enomaj]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Fucking English majors.

Sounded like coons to me.

[dba Fred]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Its probably escaped your notice, since I've only said it about ten times: the only evidence we have of any head impacting any concrete is Zimmerman's say-so. The fact that this is repeated by others does not lend it any substance. It remains as it was, his word alone.

Likewise, the only evidence we have that Zimmerman shot Martin is Zimmerman’s say-so. If one Zimmerman say-so is disbelieved, shouldn’t the other Zimmerman say-so also be disbelieved?

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by dba Fred

Likewise, the only evidence we have that Zimmerman shot Martin is Zimmerman’s say-so. If one Zimmerman say-so is disbelieved, shouldn’t the other Zimmerman say-so also be disbelieved?

So Zimmerman is the guard who always lies?

The 911 calls, girlfriend calls mean nothing?

[dba Fred]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

<clipped>
The 911 calls, girlfriend calls mean nothing?

Sure they mean something, they are pieces of the puzzle and I await other pieces being added prior to reaching a conclusion.

At this point, there is no 3rd party witness we know of who can prove or disprove Zimmerman’s claim his head impacted concrete or that he shot Martin, we only have Zimmerman’s say-so on both.
With so much speculation and conjecture in this thread, specifically concerning Zimmerman’s truthfulness, I’m aspiring to be Brickerish in pointing out there’s a lot of “I’ll believe what supports what I’ve concluded and disbelieve what doesn’t” even from the same source.

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by dba Fred

Sure they mean something, they are pieces of the puzzle and I await other pieces being added prior to reaching a conclusion.

At this point, there is no 3rd party witness we know of who can prove or disprove Zimmerman’s claim his head impacted concrete or that he shot Martin, we only have Zimmerman’s say-so on both.
With so much speculation and conjecture in this thread, specifically concerning Zimmerman’s truthfulness, I’m aspiring to be Brickerish in pointing out there’s a lot of “I’ll believe what supports what I’ve concluded and disbelieve what doesn’t” even from the same source.

I find the idea that you either have to believe everything someone says or none of it to be completely inane and outside the realm of reality.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Here you go, from the reporter who had the report leaked to her.




Furthermore, Zimmerman's father has confirmed that story.

Was that the same reporter that had George's weight at 250, and Treyvon's at 140? Or was that a different reporter?

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds

Or the autopsy report.

I'll be struggling to understand how one can repeatedly smash an uncooperative person's head on concrete without injury to one's fingers.

Holding the side of the head, not the back

What I would like to see in the autopsy report is angle of the gunshot wound. This would confirm position

Of course now that we've reduced the number of skull injuries to two, one of which could be explained by falling, and striking one's head on the sidewalk, after being punched in the nose. The other appearing to be a deep scratch or minor cut given the amount of blood and actual appearance of the wound, the kind of wound that would be associated more with the moving of one's own head over an rough surface . . . I'm struggling even more.

CMC fnord!

I can see the wound from a backwards fall matching the wound of head banging. Abrasions could have been caused because Zim was struggling to get free.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

If Zimmerman were beaten by Martin and their neighbour had the foresight to take a picture before it were* cleaned and treated at the scene, shouldn't the police have had similar foresight?

* Is the second clause subjunctive too? It sounds awkward.

Ive run many crime scenes. The answer is no. If the Paramedics are on scene, they are in charge of any issues regarding health. Thus, those wounds wouldnt be logged as they may have been in this case by the police. Essentially, they would have been dressed with 4x4s and kerlex or tape.

In my years on the rigs (6), the only thing officers did was tape the scene and wait for CSI to arrive. In fact, in many cases, its the officers on scene who may contaminate evidence with improper scene handling.

So when you say shouldnt the police have similar foresight, the answer is no.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

girlfriend calls mean nothing?

All conversations can point to more clarity.

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Essentially, they would have been dressed with 4x4s and kerlex or tape.

If the surveillance video is any indication, it doesn't appear as if this was done by the paramedics. Zimmerman's head was without wound dressings on that tape.

As a paramedic, would there ever be occasion in which you wouldn't at least stick a bandaid on a scalp wound? Just wondering.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Ive run many crime scenes. The answer is no. If the Paramedics are on scene, they are in charge of any issues regarding health. Thus, those wounds wouldnt be logged as they may have been in this case by the police. Essentially, they would have been dressed with 4x4s and kerlex or tape.

How about a medical grade cyanoacrylate wound closure product like GluStitch? Might they have used that?

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Bricker

How about a medical grade cyanoacrylate wound closure product like GluStitch? Might they have used that?

we didnt have that back in my day. LOL but then, we took blood pressures with a cuff and stethoscope too.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by you with the face

If the surveillance video is any indication, it doesn't appear as if this was done by the paramedics. Zimmerman's head was without wound dressings on that tape.

I believe the photo was taken before they were there. The article says it was taken 3 minutes after some event on the phone (providing the date stamp wasnt manipulated)

As a paramedic, would there ever be occasion in which you wouldn't at least stick a bandaid on a scalp wound? Just wondering.

Depends on the wound. His being greatly superficial, I doubt it. That being said, today they have steri-strips, we didnt have them. They are tape like sutures. Personally, I would have slapped a few folded 4x4s after applying a bit of pressure, and some zip tape.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Was that the same reporter that had George's weight at 250, and Treyvon's at 140? Or was that a different reporter?

I haven't through every report Stutzman has done on the story, but she didn't mention either Zimmerman or Martin's weight in the article in which she revealed the police reports that had been leaked to her by some disgruntled police officers.

I think the "250 pounds" that was floating around the media came from Zimmerman's license or the old arrest report from a few years ago, since he used to be much, much heavier as you can tell from his mug shot that was shown around the media.