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  #401  
Old 11-20-2017, 07:44 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Your argument is what, at that point? "Why can't kids today just meet their sweethearts at the sock hop or for a chocolate phosphate at Elmer's diner?"
Something like that.

I've probably dated maybe 50 people in my life. I don't think any of them were total strangers. Some of them were strangers in the sense that we were set up but something like transexualism would not have been something that got revealed after we started the first date.

These are things that would be pretty clear early on.

Like I said, I don't want to pass a law or anything but it is pretty clearly dishonest to neglect to disclose this very uncommon material fact that over 80% of the population would find material.
  #402  
Old 11-20-2017, 08:11 PM
Jragon Jragon is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
eharmony. Was that a bad idea?
Yeah. Uh... eharmony isn't known for being LGBT friendly. They hide the conservative christian bent of their company pretty well though so I can't blame you for not knowing.
  #403  
Old 11-20-2017, 11:24 PM
DUCKofDEATH DUCKofDEATH is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
Do you actually have anything new to add? Just askin'.
Why did you waste your time and ours making that pointless posting? Curious.
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  #404  
Old 11-20-2017, 11:31 PM
DUCKofDEATH DUCKofDEATH is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
You're conflating "gender" and "sex". Psychology and medicine have considered these separate issues for quite some time now; if you won't keep up with the cutting edge of medical science, you could at least keep up with the stuff that was cutting edge before my parents met.
Nonsense. You've got it wrong. Sex is a subset of Gender. You must be so embarassed. As for what you think psychologists believe, since psychology is a soft science, they're not really scientists, so I don't credit their opinions as having gravitas.
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Last edited by DUCKofDEATH; 11-20-2017 at 11:32 PM.
  #405  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:18 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Jragon View Post
Yeah. Uh... eharmony isn't known for being LGBT friendly. They hide the conservative christian bent of their company pretty well though so I can't blame you for not knowing.
Hunh. I thought it was like the best one. All their commercials say so.

OK so it look like OK cupid basically requires you to "opt in" to dating transgender. How do transgender folks end up dating people that did not opt in?
  #406  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:09 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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The 'Weather' Argument

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
If rape at the "rape night club" was as common as violence against transgenders is, then why isn't it good advice to tell a woman not to go to the "rape nightclub" wearing nothing but a thong and a bikini top and spend all night drinking and flirting with the "rape dudes"?
When someone ignores the weather report and goes out without an umbrella and gets soaked to the skin, we tend to tell them "Your own fault! Your own responsibility!"

The weather, however, is not a conscious deliberate participant. And men are not the weather.

Yes, there is still a valid sense in which self-preservation means taking into account the behaviors of men at the rape night club. It's not bad pre facto advice. But it's not valid post facto assignment of blame. Rapists, and not their victims, are responsible for their behavior.
  #407  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:15 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
When someone ignores the weather report and goes out without an umbrella and gets soaked to the skin, we tend to tell them "Your own fault! Your own responsibility!"

The weather, however, is not a conscious deliberate participant. And men are not the weather.

Yes, there is still a valid sense in which self-preservation means taking into account the behaviors of men at the rape night club. It's not bad pre facto advice. But it's not valid post facto assignment of blame. Rapists, and not their victims, are responsible for their behavior.
Sure, that is why my sentence immediately following the part you quoted is:

"Telling someone who has been raped that it was her fault for going to the rape night club is victim blaming. Telling her not to go in the first place is good advice."

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 11-21-2017 at 09:15 AM.
  #408  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:30 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
There are x and y chromosomes that determine gender. When everything is operating normally, that gives us men and women.
Normatively, not normally. That something is the typical, or normative, situation doesn't make it the healthier, or more desirable, or proper and appropriate situation. Exceptions to the rule can be entirely valid, healthy, desirable, etc individuals.

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Any other results are malfunctions that we should try to heal. Certainly society shouldn't change as a result.
Certainly society should. It's sick, it has undesirable characteristics, it exhibits pathological behavior that hurts its individuals and those of us to whom that hurting has been done are going to change it. Society, incidentally, resides in people's heads. Thanks for participating.

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Originally Posted by cyberpvnk
If you have a penis, you are a male. If you have a vagina, you are a female. No matter what you think, whether you are a male and think you are a female or vice-versa, it does not change the fact that you have the sexual biology you were born with. If you think you are a male, when biologically you are not, there is something wrong with your head.
Here's the crux of the "transgendered people are mentally ill" argument, and as arguments go, it's a stupid one. If someone who is a male thinks they are a female, they don't identify as transgender; they aren't the people we're talking about! Why would they identify as transgender? By your definition they'd be unaware of being male. A transgender person who seeks to transition is better conceptualized as someone who thinks they were supposed to be female in body but is aware that they are not and intends to address that situation.

And this (for you too, DUCKofDEATH) is where it is necessary to use a different set of terms for the body and the sense of self, and for the sake of clarity and communication it helps if we use the same ones. SEX is the body. That's your x and y chromosomes and their (normative) phenotype configurations, which are "male" and "female". GENDER is the sense of self, both from the inside (self perception) and as attributed by other people. A transgender person is defined as a person whose gender does not match the gender assigned to them at birth. Some doctor attributed a gender, or a parent did, or whatever, usually based on seeing the characteristics we call SEX characteristics (penis, vagina). So it might be clearer to say that their gender doesn't match their sex.

If you're going to ignore the entirety of gender (as I'm defining it, not as you may have been using it) and discuss only sex, you're going to miss the point. Trans people are generally as aware of what body morphology they've got in their underwear as you are. And if they weren't, they wouldn't be coming out as trans.
  #409  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:33 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Sure, that is why my sentence immediately following the part you quoted is:

"Telling someone who has been raped that it was her fault for going to the rape night club is victim blaming. Telling her not to go in the first place is good advice."
But you're still doing the former; you're just inserting a layer of plausible deniability in there. You're not saying that its their fault they got beaten up because they didn't tell their date they are transgender, you're saying it's their fault because they engaged in risky behavior and the risky behavior was not telling their date they are transgender. And you are doing so specifically in order to move the burden of action from the potential assailant to the potential victim to support your "utilitarian" argument.
  #410  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:36 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Sure, that is why my sentence immediately following the part you quoted is:

"Telling someone who has been raped that it was her fault for going to the rape night club is victim blaming. Telling her not to go in the first place is good advice."
I know.

So so far we're on the same page. Good.

Now, about telling her not to go in the first place. I said there was a valid sense in which self-preservation means not going to the rape night club. But if every woman did that, the rapists would move on to the next night club and make that one the rape night club. And if every woman continued the self-preservationist behavior and ceased going to any and all night clubs, the rapists would move on to wherever the women were, in order to rape them. And the women's range of freedom shrinks and shrinks and shrinks until they're locked behind walls with the threat of rape keeping them there.

With me so far?
  #411  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:45 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Look, if women don't want to be raped they shouldn't leave their cloister.
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  #412  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:20 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
But you're still doing the former; you're just inserting a layer of plausible deniability in there. You're not saying that its their fault they got beaten up because they didn't tell their date they are transgender, you're saying it's their fault because they engaged in risky behavior and the risky behavior was not telling their date they are transgender. And you are doing so specifically in order to move the burden of action from the potential assailant to the potential victim to support your "utilitarian" argument.
So how was what I said different from what Ahunter said except in your imagination?

I am not saying that getting beaten up is the inevitable and certainly not a deserved consequence of being transgender and not telling their date. I'm responding to people saying "transgender folks get beat up, Oh and BTW we insist on going on dates with total strangers... without telling them we are transgender"
  #413  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:30 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
I know.

So so far we're on the same page. Good.

Now, about telling her not to go in the first place. I said there was a valid sense in which self-preservation means not going to the rape night club. But if every woman did that, the rapists would move on to the next night club and make that one the rape night club. And if every woman continued the self-preservationist behavior and ceased going to any and all night clubs, the rapists would move on to wherever the women were, in order to rape them. And the women's range of freedom shrinks and shrinks and shrinks until they're locked behind walls with the threat of rape keeping them there.

With me so far?
No, the rapists don't travel from night club to night club they don't go out searching for people to rape.

Or are you saying that the transgender beatings are by men that go out there looking for transsexuals to beat up?

Not dating total strangers without telling them will not eventually lead to transgender women staying at home and never peeking out of their homes.
  #414  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:31 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Look, if women don't want to be raped they shouldn't leave their cloister.
There are different levels of risk.

You take a risk when you cross the street. You take an entirely different kind of risk when you try to cross a busy freeway in the middle of the night wearing a ninja outfit.
  #415  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:25 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
No, the rapists don't travel from night club to night club they don't go out searching for people to rape.
Cite??

Am I missing something that was specified in a hypothetical upthread, or do you think rapists in real life congregate at specific locales and would not, in fact, seek out victims in other places if they disappeared from where they've been finding them?
  #416  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:31 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Cite??

Am I missing something that was specified in a hypothetical upthread, or do you think rapists in real life congregate at specific locales and would not, in fact, seek out victims in other places if they disappeared from where they've been finding them?
I thought it was supposed to be an allegory for transgender women dating total strangers without letting them know that they were transgender.

That is the risk we are talking about. Like the risk of going to "rape night club" wearing a thong and a bikini top to flirt and get drunk with the "rape boys" in the club.

This seems like a particularly risky thing to do. Does this mean that Transgender women would also be warned away from dating acquaintances or friends of friends who know they are transgender because those total strangers would suddenly show up on those dates as well?
  #417  
Old 11-21-2017, 03:10 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I thought it was supposed to be an allegory for transgender women dating total strangers without letting them know that they were transgender.
I understand that much.

Staying within the boundaries of the situation being used as the allegory, and not (as of yet) hopping out to talk about transgender women and their dating behaviors,

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3
I said there was a valid sense in which self-preservation means not going to the rape night club. But if every woman did that, the rapists would move on to the next night club and make that one the rape night club. And if every woman continued the self-preservationist behavior and ceased going to any and all night clubs, the rapists would move on to wherever the women were, in order to rape them. And the women's range of freedom shrinks and shrinks and shrinks until they're locked behind walls with the threat of rape keeping them there.
to which you replied
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
No, the rapists don't travel from night club to night club they don't go out searching for people to rape.

Leave transgender women out of this, for the moment, unless you want to say that the allegory falls apart at this point and that what is true of women risking rape is not true of transgender women going on dates. Just focus on the women being raped at the rape night club.
  #418  
Old 11-21-2017, 06:52 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
No, the rapists don't travel from night club to night club they don't go out searching for people to rape.

Or are you saying that the transgender beatings are by men that go out there looking for transsexuals to beat up?

Not dating total strangers without telling them will not eventually lead to transgender women staying at home and never peeking out of their homes.
Thing is, most rape victims know their attackers. The whole "stranger jumping out of the bushes" isn't as common.
  #419  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:48 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
I understand that much.

Staying within the boundaries of the situation being used as the allegory, and not (as of yet) hopping out to talk about transgender women and their dating behaviors,



to which you replied


Leave transgender women out of this, for the moment, unless you want to say that the allegory falls apart at this point and that what is true of women risking rape is not true of transgender women going on dates. Just focus on the women being raped at the rape night club.
Leave Transgender women out of it? But that's what we ware talking about.

If you are asking me if its a perfect analogy, then no. Its not a perfect analogy. If Women in thongs and bikini tops stop going to that particular night club to drink and flirt with the rapists, then the rapists might decide there aren't enough women in thongs and bikini tops coming in to flirt and get drunk with them and move to another night club.

How does that apply to transgender women dating?
  #420  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:49 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
Thing is, most rape victims know their attackers. The whole "stranger jumping out of the bushes" isn't as common.
I think we're confusing the analogy for the thing that is being analogized. We are actually not talking about rape. We are talking about why saying that something is risky is not the same thing as blaming the victim.
  #421  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:50 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Either use the analogy or don't use the analogy, but don't be sort-of using it and then digressing from it with "oh but well we aren't really talking about rape we're talking about transgender women dating".
  #422  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:44 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
You must be so embarassed.
This sort of personal attack serves no purpose in the discussion. You seem to enjoy posting in this manner, but you need to figure a better way to respond.

Back off from personal remarks and keep to the actual issues in the thread.

[ /Moderating ]
  #423  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:19 AM
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is offline
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Nonsense. You've got it wrong. Sex is a subset of Gender. You must be so embarassed. As for what you think psychologists believe, since psychology is a soft science, they're not really scientists, so I don't credit their opinions as having gravitas.
Well that's dismissive. But okay, who do you take seriously, then? Psychiatrists? Medical doctors in general? Medical ethicists? Neurologists? For the record, Wikipedia is not agreeing with your position, and is also not something you should be crediting with "gravitas" if you reject the opinion of psychologists outright.
  #424  
Old 11-22-2017, 08:15 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
So how was what I said different from what Ahunter said except in your imagination?

I am not saying that getting beaten up is the inevitable and certainly not a deserved consequence of being transgender and not telling their date. I'm responding to people saying "transgender folks get beat up, Oh and BTW we insist on going on dates with total strangers... without telling them we are transgender"
Yet you continue to exclude the agency of the potential attacker in apportioning responsibility for taking action, and you do so for ludicrous reasons. You literally compared going on a date - a common human interaction - with running around a busy road in the dark dressed in black. Are you saying that in the latter case you wouldn't "blame the victim" for getting hit by a car? Because even saying "they shouldn't have done that" is blaming the victim.

You also keep ignoring the other possible consequences of revealing one's transgender status to someone one hasn't even had a conversation with. In fact doing so is more analogous to running across a busy road than dating without notifying in advance, given the odds of a literally devastating outcome.
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  #425  
Old 11-22-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
Nonsense. You've got it wrong. Sex is a subset of Gender. You must be so embarassed. As for what you think psychologists believe, since psychology is a soft science, they're not really scientists, so I don't credit their opinions as having gravitas.
The concept of gender to which you link is grammatical gender. The concept we're talking about is sociological gender.

Words have more than one meaning, news at 9.
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  #426  
Old 11-22-2017, 10:34 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Either use the analogy or don't use the analogy, but don't be sort-of using it and then digressing from it with "oh but well we aren't really talking about rape we're talking about transgender women dating".
Well then, explain to me how this digression into rape helps explain anything about transgender dating because I don't see it. The analogy was brought up by YOUR side because they thought my admonitions about not engaging in risky behaviour was "victim-blaming" I just worked with the analogy brought up by YOUR side. If you think YOUR side should drop the bullshit "victim-blaming" line of argument, then please direct your comments to them.
  #427  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:02 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Yet you continue to exclude the agency of the potential attacker in apportioning responsibility for taking action, and you do so for ludicrous reasons. You literally compared going on a date - a common human interaction - with running around a busy road in the dark dressed in black. Are you saying that in the latter case you wouldn't "blame the victim" for getting hit by a car? Because even saying "they shouldn't have done that" is blaming the victim.
No, its not. Warning someone of risky behaviour is not victim blaming. If violence from dating total strangers is as much of a problem as you say, then it is not victim blaming to ask "why don't you stop dating total strangers"

Its not an adequate response to say "well we should get those total strangers to stop breaking the law and being violent" Its already against the law, there's not much more we can do to prevent that violence that doesn't involve changing social attitudes and prejudices. Being dishonest about being transgender when you go on dates with total strangers does not seem like an effective way to change those attitudes.

Quote:
You also keep ignoring the other possible consequences of revealing one's transgender status to someone one hasn't even had a conversation with. In fact doing so is more analogous to running across a busy road than dating without notifying in advance, given the odds of a literally devastating outcome.
Once again, we are back to dating total strangers. I don't know that it is more risky to say you are transgender before you meet a total stranger than to tell them after you have started a romantic interaction with them. Do "out" transgender women experience more violence on dates than those who tell their dates after their dates have developed attraction to them? I don't know if there are statistics anywhere but if you know of any, I'd like to see them.
  #428  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:08 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Warning someone of risky behaviour is not victim blaming.
Not in and of itself, no.

You may say to a transgender person "I think you would be safer to make a specific point that you are indeed transgender in your dating profile".

Suppose the transgender person says "I'm not comfortable being put into a position where it is only OK for me to go forward into the world if I'm clearly labeled. I'm not a danger that the world needs to be warned about. People — including people who date —are occasionally going to encounter transgender people. Deal with it".

That's where you nod and accept that there are more factors involved here than the safety issue you brought up, and you accept their right to make that call.
  #429  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:49 PM
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Out transgender women sometimes experience gender-inspired violence when trying to use a public restroom. It's really not fair in this day and age to expect all transgender women to be out in public, like on a dating site.

Now, would it be wise for a transgender women to bring up the topic before getting naked with a new partner? I certainly think so. I think it would be wise for someone with a colostomy bag to mention that, too. Not because I expect anyone to behave violently to discovering that info, but because I don't think it's wise to surprise a new partner too much when undressing. It just seems like there's a risk of emotional hurt on both sides when that happens.

But there's typically some interactions between "browse a dating profile" and "get naked together". That's when I'd expect a disclosure of unusual genitalia and other personal medical information to occur.

If you would be really upset to go on a coffee date with someone on a dating site and discover that you don't want to have sex with them, you probably shouldn't be using dating sites. There are all sorts of things that might come up. The person might smell bad, or drone on endlessly about some exceedingly boring subject, or have a pet alligator or...
  #430  
Old 11-25-2017, 01:17 AM
SarahWitch SarahWitch is offline
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It's impossible to claim that there is no organic basis for transgenderism-- i.e. that every person is naturally cis-gendered, except for some impairment. After all, prenatal development transpires in distinct stages regarding mental and physical development, and thus the unique processes of orientation, identity and anatomy, can quite conceivably be entirely distinct and interchangeable. So one can:
  1. be attracted to males or females,
  2. identify as male or female, and
  3. appear male or female,
in any combination, without any universal relationship among these variables (i.e. the standard Judeo-Christian claim that men naturally appear male, identify as male, and are attracted to females; and vice-versa for females-- no exceptions).
This claim appeared with the saturation-phase of global habitation about halfway through the Agrarian Era, when rivalries began over farmland, and population-gaps began concerns over breeding-habits, with universal monogamy and child-rearing becoming mandatory; whereas beforehand, polysexuality seemed an evolutionary means to prevent inbreeding among a hunter-gatherer society in which numbers were limited along with food. Thus, deaths of males might lead to females acting the role of males, and vice-versa, along with sexual orientation preventing inbreeding by limiting extended-family size.

Last edited by SarahWitch; 11-25-2017 at 01:18 AM.
  #431  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:22 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Not in and of itself, no.

You may say to a transgender person "I think you would be safer to make a specific point that you are indeed transgender in your dating profile".

Suppose the transgender person says "I'm not comfortable being put into a position where it is only OK for me to go forward into the world if I'm clearly labeled. I'm not a danger that the world needs to be warned about. People — including people who date —are occasionally going to encounter transgender people. Deal with it".

That's where you nod and accept that there are more factors involved here than the safety issue you brought up, and you accept their right to make that call.
I'm not trying to pass a law saying that transgender folks have to disclose before they date. I say that not disclosing is dishonest and then the response was that it can be dangerous disclosing to a total stranger. That's where we veered into the topic of whether I was blaming the victim after i said that dating a total stranger is dangerous when you are transgender.

IOW, the safety issue was not brought up by me. It was brought up by the proponents of not disclosing transgenderism to people you are dating..
  #432  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:26 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Out transgender women sometimes experience gender-inspired violence when trying to use a public restroom. It's really not fair in this day and age to expect all transgender women to be out in public, like on a dating site.

Now, would it be wise for a transgender women to bring up the topic before getting naked with a new partner? I certainly think so. I think it would be wise for someone with a colostomy bag to mention that, too. Not because I expect anyone to behave violently to discovering that info, but because I don't think it's wise to surprise a new partner too much when undressing. It just seems like there's a risk of emotional hurt on both sides when that happens.

But there's typically some interactions between "browse a dating profile" and "get naked together". That's when I'd expect a disclosure of unusual genitalia and other personal medical information to occur.

If you would be really upset to go on a coffee date with someone on a dating site and discover that you don't want to have sex with them, you probably shouldn't be using dating sites. There are all sorts of things that might come up. The person might smell bad, or drone on endlessly about some exceedingly boring subject, or have a pet alligator or...
Or beat up transgender women. If the pool of prospective dates on a dating site are such a rough crown maybe you need to find a different dating pool. One that is maybe a little less anonymous.
  #433  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:32 PM
SarahWitch SarahWitch is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I'm not trying to pass a law saying that transgender folks have to disclose before they date. I say that not disclosing is dishonest and then the response was that it can be dangerous disclosing to a total stranger. That's where we veered into the topic of whether I was blaming the victim after i said that dating a total stranger is dangerous when you are transgender.

IOW, the safety issue was not brought up by me. It was brought up by the proponents of not disclosing transgenderism to people you are dating..
I know what there is to know about The Crying Game.
  #434  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:33 PM
SarahWitch SarahWitch is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Or beat up transgender women.
Dill can take it... just not in the face.
  #435  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:42 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SarahWitch View Post
It's impossible to claim that there is no organic basis for transgenderism-- i.e. that every person is naturally cis-gendered, except for some impairment. After all, prenatal development transpires in distinct stages regarding mental and physical development, and thus the unique processes of orientation, identity and anatomy, can quite conceivably be entirely distinct and interchangeable. So one can:
  1. be attracted to males or females,
  2. identify as male or female, and
  3. appear male or female,
in any combination, without any universal relationship among these variables (i.e. the standard Judeo-Christian claim that men naturally appear male, identify as male, and are attracted to females; and vice-versa for females-- no exceptions).
Judeo-Christian?

Quote:
This claim appeared with the saturation-phase of global habitation about halfway through the Agrarian Era, when rivalries began over farmland, and population-gaps began concerns over breeding-habits, with universal monogamy and child-rearing becoming mandatory; whereas beforehand, polysexuality seemed an evolutionary means to prevent inbreeding among a hunter-gatherer society in which numbers were limited along with food. Thus, deaths of males might lead to females acting the role of males, and vice-versa, along with sexual orientation preventing inbreeding by limiting extended-family size.
Or it is the result of the overwhelming majority of people fitting pretty well into the sex they were born into and being attracted to the opposite sex. Otherwise I think its pretty hard to explain how almost every culture in human history has gravitated towards this ""Judeo-Christian" claim.

AFAICT, Jews seem to have all sorts of rules that deal with transgenderism. In the end, if you are in such distress about your gender that your life is in danger, many things are permitted that would not be normally permitted. I think this is the stance of a lot of Jews from reform to Orthodox. And depending on the denomination of christianity, transgenderism is not only recognized it is accepted.
  #436  
Old 11-26-2017, 02:16 AM
SarahWitch SarahWitch is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Judeo-Christian?
Yeah, like followers of the Bible
Quote:
Or it is the result of the overwhelming majority of people fitting pretty well into the sex they were born into and being attracted to the opposite sex.
If you are 100% historically illiterate. This website claims to be "combating ignorance since 1973," but the boards seem to specialize in perpetuating it.
You would have everyone believe that the Bible expressly enforces Universal heterosexual monogamy while punishing everything else as original sin, solely to waste ink and paper, since you claim that virtually everybody was doing it anyway. It's hard to believe that anyone can be that illiterate about pre-christian history, and how Society was pretty much one universal orgy with little regard to gender or anything else.

Last edited by SarahWitch; 11-26-2017 at 02:18 AM.
  #437  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:59 AM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
... I say that not disclosing is dishonest ...
okay, then we simply disagree. Depending on how well the team gender person passes, it may or may not be wise, but I certainly don't think it's dishonest.

And I'll reiterate, if you will be really upset to discover you aren't sexually compatible with someone you meet on a first date, you shouldn't be using dating sites/apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Or beat up transgender women. If the pool of prospective dates on a dating site are such a rough crown maybe you need to find a different dating pool. One that is maybe a little less anonymous.
There are rapists on dating sites, who drug and rape cis women on dates, too. There are certain risks in dating total strangers, as you point out. Yet most single adults post-college do it these days.

Anyway, anyone who would beat up a first date upon discovering she's trans (or anyone who would rape a first date, or otherwise express unprovoked violence) should be in prison. I understand that they aren't. There are violent predators and violently unstable people out there. But given the popularity of on-line dating, I have to assume they aren't a huge fraction of the dating-site population.

Tl;dr:

Neither the undisclosed transwomen nor the man who is disappointed to find his date is trans is at fault, imo. First dates include some unwanted surprises. But a man who would be furious to be so disappointed shouldn't be dating on-line, at least not without disclosing his status.

And no, I don't think 80% of the population would be furious. Furious is a small subset of disappointed (which might well be 80%)
  #438  
Old 11-26-2017, 03:46 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
okay, then we simply disagree. Depending on how well the team gender person passes, it may or may not be wise, but I certainly don't think it's dishonest.
And apparently it's only the transgender person who doesn't disclose their personal medical information who is dishonest. But not the person who hides the fact they won't have a relationship with a transgender person - they're somehow not dishonest in the least...because, reasons. It's almost Trumpian in its inconsistency.
  #439  
Old 11-26-2017, 04:27 PM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahWitch View Post
You would have everyone believe that the Bible expressly enforces Universal heterosexual monogamy while punishing everything else as original sin, solely to waste ink and paper, since you claim that virtually everybody was doing it anyway.
Just to throw a fact into this odd discourse, the bible does not insist on monogamy at any point, (except in the matter of the High Priest in Leviticus and a somewhat vague instruction in 1 Timothy and Titus that indicates that a bishop (epischopon) must be a man of one spouse). While monogamy has been a practice and a presumption among many people, Christianity picked it up as a rule from the Roman society in which Christianity arose while Western Judaism adopted it in the eleventh century to avoid further persecution from Christians.
  #440  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:07 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
But not the person who hides the fact they won't have a relationship with a transgender person - they're somehow not dishonest in the least...because, reasons. It's almost Trumpian in its inconsistency.
How is this dishonest? It would only be dishonest if the person who they are dating thinks they WILL have a relationship with a transgender person and they know that their date thinks that but they still don't say that they won't.
  #441  
Old 11-27-2017, 08:17 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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I can relate to the dating site issue in the sense that I am a paraplegic who uses a wheelchair. While I do not reveal my disability on my profile-I have done so and find myself getting passed over 100%-I absolutely tell someone I talk to individually. I make sure to do this well before any in-person meeting and usually before we get too immersed in conversation. However, I think it's ridiculous to expect someone to post their desire to date non-transgender people (or able-bodied people, for that matter).

Last edited by Ambivalid; 11-27-2017 at 08:20 PM.
  #442  
Old 11-27-2017, 08:37 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
I can relate to the dating site issue in the sense that I am a paraplegic who uses a wheelchair. While I do not reveal my disability on my profile-I have done so and find myself getting passed over 100%-I absolutely tell someone I talk to individually. I make sure to do this well before any in-person meeting and usually before we get too immersed in conversation. However, I think it's ridiculous to expect someone to post their desire to date non-transgender people (or able-bodied people, for that matter).
But if it comes down to one party having to make things clear up front on their profiles, it's without question the person with the unusual, seldom-seen quality (whether that be a wheelchair user or a transgender person).

ETA: IMO, of course.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 11-27-2017 at 08:38 PM.
  #443  
Old 11-27-2017, 08:45 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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I want a person to experience at least a bit of my personality before I reveal my disability. Otherwise having knowledge of the disability come first serves as a major obstacle to any further knowledge of me being shared. I'm sure, to at least some extent, the same thing is true in the transgender online dating world.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 11-27-2017 at 08:46 PM.
  #444  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:06 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahWitch View Post
Yeah, like followers of the Bible

If you are 100% historically illiterate. This website claims to be "combating ignorance since 1973," but the boards seem to specialize in perpetuating it.
You would have everyone believe that the Bible expressly enforces Universal heterosexual monogamy while punishing everything else as original sin, solely to waste ink and paper, since you claim that virtually everybody was doing it anyway. It's hard to believe that anyone can be that illiterate about pre-christian history, and how Society was pretty much one universal orgy with little regard to gender or anything else.
WTF?!?!? I have no idea where you are getting your ideas from.
  #445  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:09 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
okay, then we simply disagree. Depending on how well the team gender person passes, it may or may not be wise, but I certainly don't think it's dishonest.

And I'll reiterate, if you will be really upset to discover you aren't sexually compatible with someone you meet on a first date, you shouldn't be using dating sites/apps.
Or perhaps you shouldn't be using dating apps if you are concerned about getting beat up by strangers.

Quote:
There are rapists on dating sites, who drug and rape cis women on dates, too. There are certain risks in dating total strangers, as you point out. Yet most single adults post-college do it these days.
Maybe I'm just too old to udnerstand.

Quote:
Anyway, anyone who would beat up a first date upon discovering she's trans (or anyone who would rape a first date, or otherwise express unprovoked violence) should be in prison. I understand that they aren't. There are violent predators and violently unstable people out there. But given the popularity of on-line dating, I have to assume they aren't a huge fraction of the dating-site population.

Tl;dr:

Neither the undisclosed transwomen nor the man who is disappointed to find his date is trans is at fault, imo. First dates include some unwanted surprises. But a man who would be furious to be so disappointed shouldn't be dating on-line, at least not without disclosing his status.

And no, I don't think 80% of the population would be furious. Furious is a small subset of disappointed (which might well be 80%)
So you think that its honest to go out with someone knowing that they almost certainly think you are one thing when you are actually not that thing?
  #446  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:30 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
And apparently it's only the transgender person who doesn't disclose their personal medical information who is dishonest. But not the person who hides the fact they won't have a relationship with a transgender person - they're somehow not dishonest in the least...because, reasons. It's almost Trumpian in its inconsistency.
Just throwing Trump in there doesn't make your weak argument any stronger.

If the transgender person doesn't disclose that they are transgender, then they are hiding a fact that 80% of people would consider a material fact. That is dishonest. I don't want to pass a law prohibiting it but it is still dishonest.

Not indicating your aversion to dating someone that is transgender is NOT deceptive because transgenderism is very rare while aversion to transgenderism is ubiquitous. 80% plus of the population would not date a transgender person.

Please let me know what part of this you don't understand. I wish the world were different, but its not and there is only so much you can expect the rest of the world to do to accommodate you. Having 80% of the world state something that they experience so rarely that they never even think about it just so you can date total strangers without disclosing your extremely rare situation is not reasonable.
  #447  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:14 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Just throwing Trump in there doesn't make your weak argument any stronger.
After the ill-reasoned and irrational bullshit you've been spewing in this thread, it's pretty ripe for you to complain that someone else's argument is "weak." Particularly given the fact that Una been kicking your ass around this thread like Bruce Lee fighting Stephen Hawking.

Quote:
If the transgender person doesn't disclose that they are transgender, then they are hiding a fact that 80% of people would consider a material fact. That is dishonest. I don't want to pass a law prohibiting it but it is still dishonest.
No, it's not dishonest. Nobody is required to tell you any personal details of their lives just because you think you're entitled to know about them.

Quote:
Please let me know what part of this you don't understand. I wish the world were different, but its not and there is only so much you can expect the rest of the world to do to accommodate you. Having 80% of the world state something that they experience so rarely that they never even think about it just so you can date total strangers without disclosing your extremely rare situation is not reasonable.
Let's be clear, here: in this specific case, what we're expecting "the rest of the world to do to accomdate" trans people is accept that there's a sub 1% chance that, at some point, they might go on a date with someone who used to be a different gender, and we'd like them not to be dicks about it if it happens. That's it. That's the entire "sacrifice" we're asking people to make in the name of not being shitty to trans people.
  #448  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:24 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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But realistically, how many people out there online dating are going to think to exclude transgender people when writing their profiles? Dollars to doughnut most people never even think of it. So it is incumbent on the person in possession of the less-than-mainstream attribute to identify that attribute of themselves at some point prior to meeting in person for the first time.

Last edited by Ambivalid; 11-27-2017 at 10:25 PM.
  #449  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:28 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Or perhaps you shouldn't be using dating apps if you are concerned about getting beat up by strangers.
Well, if women actually followed that advice there were be nearly no women of any sort on the on-line dating sites because it's a risk any woman runs... it's just that it's even more of a risk for transwomen.
  #450  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:30 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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And should I expect the same courtesy as a wheelchair user? Should the responsibility be on the other party to state up front that they prefer able-bodied people? If yes, well in all the years I've been online dating and in all its various forms, I have never once, not one single time, encountered a profile that stated such a preference/aversion. If no, why not?
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