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  #151  
Old 11-03-2017, 05:53 PM
epolo epolo is online now
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
So...........you'd only classify a racist friend as "not racist"?



That is bizarre in the extreme. You are less worried about a problem drinker than someone who never drinks?

Would you classify a piece of paper as flat even though on a microscopic scale it’s extremely bumpy? Would you classify a thousand straws in a pile as a heap? There are such things as gradations. Someone who acknowledges bias and works to correct it is less racist than someone who doesn’t. If they’re good at correcting it, we could fairly call them “not racist” but it would be more accurate to say that they actively work not to be racist. If they ever stopped working at it, they would in all likelihood become somewhat more racist.

Maybe another analogy would work: it’s like being an “athlete”. Does running a marathon once make you an “athlete”? Making it to the Olympics once and then sitting on the couch for thirty years? Jogging a couple of miles every day for decades? Just having a good metabolism such that you don’t get fat even without trying? I don’t think there’s a single definitive definition of what makes a particular person an “athlete” (or not racist) but we can generally agree that it takes both a desire to be such and hard work to achieve.

Alcohol is an imperfect analogy because it’s much, much easier to avoid in our society than potential issues of race. But yeah, I would be less worried about someone who put in the work to avoid alcohol and had a strong support system and backup plan for when things go wrong than I would be about someone who claimed not to drink. You are of course correct that someone who verifiably never touches drink would be at even lower risk. But I’m not sure who that would be in an analogy with race. Who could possibly avoid all situations that have the potential to have a racial dynamic? Someone who eschews all contact with other humans?


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  #152  
Old 11-03-2017, 05:59 PM
epolo epolo is online now
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
You are just saying my point in different words. If black people can overcome what society supposedly says about them enough to have high self esteem, even by picking their own level of success. That means that the messages of society can be overcome. If black people can overcome these supposed messages then so can whites. Thus it is possible for a white person to not be racist.
Huh? That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the phenomenon of racial animus might have a perverse effect on self esteem. And I think that’s consistent with the discussion in the article you cited. I don’t see anything to indicate that the pervasive bias against black people in the US can be “overcome”.


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The articles I linked present data bebunking implicit bias tests and priming. Then there is a mealy mouthed discussion of the data. In order to understand social science you have to know that nearly all social scientists are very liberal and very biased. Thus you cannot boldly present evidence that goes against the narrative and expect not to be blackballed. It has to be done in a tentative and apologizing way. Therefore when you read social scientists the best way is to focus on the experimental design and the data. The data debunking implicit bias testing is much stronger than the data they are based on. Even the people who came up with the implicit bias test have admitted that "attempts to diagnostically use such measures for individuals risk undesirably high rates of erroneous classifications" Priming has a better foundation but those studies are not replicating and the emerging consensus around honest observers is that there is nothing to it.

Oh, so we’re not engaging in honest debate here. I will quit trying.




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  #153  
Old 11-03-2017, 06:02 PM
epolo epolo is online now
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Good example. Another good example from that show, from a less racist POV, is the kids' mother. I'm sure she "didn't see color" when she was raising them. Until she found out that black kids have specific differences that need to be addressed. In the show, it was a different barber because of Randall's hair. And Randall wanted to hang out with other black kids which is why he wanted to go to a certain pool all the time. By the mother saying "I don't see color", it blinded her to aspects of her son that were different than her two white kids.


Agreed with you and Spice Weasel.
The show is quite schmaltzy, but the discussion about race is refreshingly open and honest.


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  #154  
Old 11-03-2017, 06:13 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
Knocking it up a notch. BAM!
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Yeah, I'm a sucker for the schmaltz.
  #155  
Old 11-15-2017, 11:53 AM
Jake Bullet - Traffic Control! Jake Bullet - Traffic Control! is offline
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Apologies for the late response. I don't get online as often as I'd like. I've nothing really to add except that I'm glad I started this thread because some posters (in particular, Shalmanese in this post) made some very good points which have changed my thinking a lot on this issue, and I get why "I don't see color" can come across as offensive.

So yeah, someone actually had their mind changed on the internet. It finally happened!
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