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  #51  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:16 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
This is God's answer to all these prayers - there is no more clearer evidence that prayer doesn't work.
Ora et labora.

You're not supposed to just pray, you're supposed to work towards improving the situation.
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  #52  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:02 AM
galen ubal galen ubal is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Ora et labora.

You're not supposed to just pray, you're supposed to work towards improving the situation.
edit: Oh, screw it. This'll just keep happening.

Last edited by galen ubal; 11-06-2017 at 05:04 AM.
  #53  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:20 AM
Two Many Cats Two Many Cats is offline
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
One of the things that needs to happen is not giving the perpetrators of these crimes all the coverage they wanted in the first place.
No names, no life history, no nothing, give them nothing and maybe then we'll start seeing less of it.
I think this would just add to the fear and paranoia of the public surrounding these incidents, not knowing anything about how or why.

It's anger, hate, and madness that motivates most of these shootings, not so much hunger for fame.
  #54  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:54 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Apparently it was a Bad Conduct Discharge, not a Dishonorable Discharge, which doesn't forbid firearm ownership.
More details will continue to come out I'm sure. You can only get a dishonorable discharge as part of a sentence from a general court martial. He most likely had a special court martial. That means the maximum punishments are less. It's roughly equivalent to going to trial for a serious misdemeanor rather than a felony. A bad conduct discharge does not in itself mean you can't own a firearm.

However his conviction was for domestic violence. A domestic violence conviction should make owning or possessing a firearm illegal. The information has changed several times so to be sure we will have to wait and see.
  #55  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:11 AM
Paul in Qatar Paul in Qatar is offline
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Good Morning. So are we looking at 26 including the killer dead or 26 plus the killer totaling 27?
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  #56  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:43 AM
Bumbershoot Bumbershoot is offline
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Various reports are saying the gunman killed 26, so 27 total dead.
  #57  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:04 AM
GreenWyvern GreenWyvern is online now
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It seems that Devin Kelley was a fanatical atheist.

It's not yet clear if that was the reason he shot up a church.
  #58  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:08 AM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post
It seems that Devin Kelley was a fanatical atheist.

It's not yet clear if that was the reason he shot up a church.
Don't link to the Daily Mail as if it were a reputable news source.
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  #59  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:17 AM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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Just turned off NPR after hearing someone go on about how this was supposedly "worse" because it occurred in a house of worship. Why is that worse than any other conceivable location?
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  #60  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:20 AM
steronz steronz is offline
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
However his conviction was for domestic violence. A domestic violence conviction should make owning or possessing a firearm illegal. The information has changed several times so to be sure we will have to wait and see.
I've read that doesn't apply to court martial decisions, but IANAL. Regardless, CNN reported that he bought the weapon from a Academy Sports in 2016, which is a major sporting goods store in the area, and posted pictures of it on Facebook. Neither of those are the actions of someone who purchased a firearm illegally.
  #61  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:22 AM
madsircool madsircool is online now
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
Don't link to the Daily Mail as if it were a reputable news source.
It is a reputable source for these shootings. They were way ahead of the pack in the LV shootings. Don't smear with a broad brush.
  #62  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:26 AM
madsircool madsircool is online now
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
Don't link to the Daily Mail as if it were a reputable news source.
Dola, you could actually read Kelleys FB posts and listen to what his friends have said.
  #63  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:29 AM
GreenWyvern GreenWyvern is online now
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
Don't link to the Daily Mail as if it were a reputable news source.
How about the BBC or the Baltimore Post-Examiner?

Quote:
"He was always talking about how people who believe in God we're (sic) stupid and trying to preach his atheism," one Facebook user commented.
Quote:
Kelley’s Facebook “Likes” included four Atheist sites: Atheism (Nonprofit Organization), Atheist (Community Organization), Friendly Atheist (Personal Blog) and Atheist Republic (Nonprofit Organization).
  #64  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:33 AM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
One of the things that needs to happen is not giving the perpetrators of these crimes all the coverage they wanted in the first place.
No names, no life history, no nothing, give them nothing and maybe then we'll start seeing less of it.
THIS! If they can't go out in a blaze of "glory", there's less incentive to do it.
  #65  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:37 AM
GreenWyvern GreenWyvern is online now
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Patrick Boyce who’d attended New Braunfels High School with Devin Kelly:
‘He had a kid or two, fairly normal, but kinda quiet and lately seemed depressed. He was the first atheist I met. He went Air Force after high school, got discharged but I don’t know why. I was just shocked [to hear the news]. Still haven’t quite processed how he could have done that.’
Nina Rose Nava, who also went to school with Kelley, wrote on Facebook:
'In in complete shock! I legit just deleted him off my fb cause I couldn’t stand his post. He was always talking about how people who believe in God we’re stupid and trying to preach his atheism.'
Christopher Leo Longoria replied:
‘I removed him off FB for those same reasons! He was being super negative all the time.’
Michael Goff added:
‘He was weird but never that damn weird, always posting his atheist sh** like Nina wrote, but damn he always posted pics of him and his baby – crazy.’
  #66  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:47 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
I've read that doesn't apply to court martial decisions, but IANAL. Regardless, CNN reported that he bought the weapon from a Academy Sports in 2016, which is a major sporting goods store in the area, and posted pictures of it on Facebook. Neither of those are the actions of someone who purchased a firearm illegally.
I'm not sure how that is. The Lautenberg amendment applies to the military too.
  #67  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Ora et labora.

You're not supposed to just pray, you're supposed to work towards improving the situation.
Now, now, now; the rules are that you're not supposed to actually do anything unless the shooter yells "Simon Says!", er, "Allahu Akbar!"
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  #68  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:56 AM
steronz steronz is offline
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
I'm not sure how that is. The Lautenberg amendment applies to the military too.
Can't find a great cite but there's lots of mediocre ones out there that indicate summary court martial decisions and non-judicial punishments don't count as misdemeanor convictions, and therefore don't trigger Lautenberg.

Quote:
"Conviction" does NOT include, however, Article 15s, summary court-martial convictions, deferred prosecution (or similar dispositions) in civilian courts, or judgments that have been expunged or set-aside.
That cite is from the Mississippi NG JA office, but it's the most official I could find on page 1 of google.

eta: Seems that the text of the amendment requires a jury conviction, or a defendant who waived the right to a jury. That would be why summary courts martial don't apply.

Last edited by steronz; 11-06-2017 at 10:00 AM.
  #69  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:27 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Now, now, now; the rules are that you're not supposed to actually do anything unless the shooter yells "Simon Says!", er, "Allahu Akbar!"
What would you like to do?
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  #70  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:29 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
Can't find a great cite but there's lots of mediocre ones out there that indicate summary court martial decisions and non-judicial punishments don't count as misdemeanor convictions, and therefore don't trigger Lautenberg.



That cite is from the Mississippi NG JA office, but it's the most official I could find on page 1 of google.

eta: Seems that the text of the amendment requires a jury conviction, or a defendant who waived the right to a jury. That would be why summary courts martial don't apply.
The maximum sentence for a summary court martial is 30 days confinement. He was sentenced to a year. Most likely he was tried in a Special Court Martial which does count as a misdemeanor conviction.
  #71  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:31 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
Don't link to the Daily Mail as if it were a reputable news source.
This comes across like junior modding. Don't tell another poster what they can use as a cite. Feel free to refute what the cite says.
  #72  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:33 AM
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Now, now, now; the rules are that you're not supposed to actually do anything unless the shooter yells "Simon Says!", er, "Allahu Akbar!"
Yes please tell us exactly what to do.
  #73  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:36 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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As per CNN the shooter was able to pass a background check to buy a gun last year. He was later denied a concealed carry permit.

It's confirmed that his in-laws attend that church but they weren't present at the time of the shooting.

He was shot by the responding neighbor and fled but later turned the gun on himself.

This is the article with the above information.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/tex...ing/index.html

Last edited by Loach; 11-06-2017 at 10:38 AM.
  #74  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:09 AM
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Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition.
  #75  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
One of the things that needs to happen is not giving the perpetrators of these crimes all the coverage they wanted in the first place.
No names, no life history, no nothing, give them nothing and maybe then we'll start seeing less of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clothahump View Post
THIS! If they can't go out in a blaze of "glory", there's less incentive to do it.


I don't think anyone can ever figure out his true motive, but I don't think it was a thirst for fame.
  #76  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:05 PM
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I wait in anticipation for extreme vetting of UK residents coming to America; we're thoroughly atheist over here. Though somehow we usually resist the temptation to murder believers.

But really; if this shooting is classed as ideologically-driven (like the jihadists) and it''s only white Christian maniacs considered aberrations suffering from mental illness I'll be appalled, and entirely unsurprised.
  #77  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:03 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Originally Posted by Ale View Post
One of the things that needs to happen is not giving the perpetrators of these crimes all the coverage they wanted in the first place.
No names, no life history, no nothing, give them nothing and maybe then we'll start seeing less of it.
Doesn't work, not even when the penalty for talking about such infamy-seekers is death.

It would also make them much more frightening and hard to deal with if nobody is allowed to talk about them. Just imagine an organized campaign to kill black or Jews where nobody is allowed to talk about who is doing it.
  #78  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:40 PM
eschereal eschereal is offline
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Doesn't work, not even when the penalty for talking about such infamy-seekers is death.

It would also make them much more frightening and hard to deal with if nobody is allowed to talk about them. Just imagine an organized campaign to kill black or Jews where nobody is allowed to talk about who is doing it.
I think it should be ok to talk about the shooter and General details concerning their life up to that point, but they should be identified as “the shooter”, “police interviewed ‘the shooter's’ spouse”, and so forth. With a fb-like silhouette for a picture if they want graphics.

Because, honestly, these kind of events are scary, and they should be treated as scary. Maybe that will inspire more people to call for action.
  #79  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:43 PM
cochrane cochrane is offline
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I think it should be ok to talk about the shooter and General details concerning their life up to that point, but they should be identified as “the shooter”, “police interviewed ‘the shooter's’ spouse”, and so forth. With a fb-like silhouette for a picture if they want graphics.

Because, honestly, these kind of events are scary, and they should be treated as scary. Maybe that will inspire more people to call for action.
That can only be done by identifying the shooter and finding out all details about his life and what motivated him.
  #80  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:53 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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... But really; if this shooting is classed as ideologically-driven (like the jihadists) and it''s only white Christian maniacs considered aberrations suffering from mental illness I'll be appalled, and entirely unsurprised.
I really don't know what you're talking about. There are plenty of shootings by white men that are "classed as ideologically-driven". Just off the top of my head I can think of Dylan Roof, the guy that shot up the abortion clinic, and the Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin. There's not some magical white privilege that gets our shootings 'excused', or whatever you're imagining happens.

ETA: Oh, and the guy that shot Steve Scalise

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-06-2017 at 01:55 PM.
  #81  
Old 11-06-2017, 01:54 PM
aurora maire aurora maire is offline
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Yes please tell us exactly what to do.
Well, obviously, we should all accept the fact that whenever we leave home there is a chance we will be shot by a white male with "mental issues". Then we will stop being surprised by these totally expected speakable acts.
  #82  
Old 11-06-2017, 02:02 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is online now
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This comes across like junior modding. Don't tell another poster what they can use as a cite. Feel free to refute what the cite says.
Wait, what?

We've been criticizing the sources of cites almost as long as this board has been in existence. (I remember pointing out to someone, probably back around 2000-ish, that the World Net Daily really wasn't a reliable cite.) Has this ever been treated as off limits before, whether as junior modding or some other justification??
  #83  
Old 11-06-2017, 02:39 PM
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Well, obviously, we should all accept the fact that whenever we leave home there is a chance we will be shot by a white male with "mental issues". Then we will stop being surprised by these totally expected speakable acts.
Isn't it then just as obvious that "we" should all accept the fact that whenever we leave home there is a chance we will be shot by a black male with "mental issues"?
  #84  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:12 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Wait, what?

We've been criticizing the sources of cites almost as long as this board has been in existence. (I remember pointing out to someone, probably back around 2000-ish, that the World Net Daily really wasn't a reliable cite.) Has this ever been treated as off limits before, whether as junior modding or some other justification??
Does this look like ATMB to you? But since this should be a quick answer. If it's not enough take it to ATMB.

"I don't think that is a credible source." "Your source is incorrect because of A." No problems.

"Don't link to that site it's not credible." Pushing it. A poster can't tell another to not link to anything.

It's easy enough to get your point across without the appearance of ordering another poster.
  #85  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:50 PM
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Local law enforcement now says that he was having a problem with his mother-in-law, exchanging angry texts with her. She attends that church.
  #86  
Old 11-06-2017, 06:52 PM
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I just heard on NBC News that the DV charge included one for fracturing his baby's skull. This child was by his (first?) wife, with whom I heard he had a 7-year-old, so I wonder if this was the same wife and child. I also heard that his criminal record was not flagged when he tried to buy guns, because it was never entered into the database.



It sounds like a lot of people dropped an awful lot of balls, and dozens of people paid the ultimate price.
  #87  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:40 PM
Corporal_Nobbs Corporal_Nobbs is offline
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I honestly don’t agree with chastising the poster who said praying doesn’t help. Obviously it doesn’t. Just as it doesn’t help cancer, people getting knocked over etc. These shootings won’t ever stop in America, you have made your bed now. I realise I will get slated for this opinion. However if you have more guns than people in a country, this will happen. It’s a thing that disappoints me about America (Yes, I have spent a lot of time in the states) that some Americans can not see the correlation between amount of guns and shootings. I work in a British bar, not a dive at all. If someone came in with an easily accessible weapon it would be a knife. Yes there would be injuries maybe some deaths. Not the same an automatic rifle...
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  #88  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:06 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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I also heard that his criminal record was not flagged when he tried to buy guns, because it was never entered into the database.
That's what it looks like.

Quote:
Kelley’s domestic violence offense was not entered into the National Criminal Information Center database by Air Force officials at Holloman Air Force Base where he had served, Ann Stefanek, an Air Force spokeswoman, said in a statement.

The Air Force was required to provide the information to the database because Kelley was convicted of domestic assault and under federal law would have been ineligible to purchase a gun legally. A review has been ordered into how the error occurred, Stefanek said.
  #89  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:33 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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I honestly don’t agree with chastising the poster who said praying doesn’t help. Obviously it doesn’t. Just as it doesn’t help cancer, people getting knocked over etc.
If the shooter went to the church to pray and engage himself by helping other people I would say praying would have helped greatly.

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Originally Posted by Corporal_Nobbs View Post
These shootings won’t ever stop in America, you have made your bed now. I realise I will get slated for this opinion. However if you have more guns than people in a country, this will happen. It’s a thing that disappoints me about America (Yes, I have spent a lot of time in the states) that some Americans can not see the correlation between amount of guns and shootings.
As none of the victims in this instance were shot by a gun you're point is a bit muddled.

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Originally Posted by Corporal_Nobbs View Post
I work in a British bar, not a dive at all. If someone came in with an easily accessible weapon it would be a knife. Yes there would be injuries maybe some deaths. Not the same an automatic rifle...
If some in the UK wanted to kill a lot of people they would use something like a car, bus or airplane. Again, your point is a bit muddled. this was a a deliberate attempt to kill a lot of people with no discernible motive other than bad feelings from some emails. take away the gun and they're still dead by other means.
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Last edited by Magiver; 11-06-2017 at 08:34 PM.
  #90  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:39 PM
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As none of the victims in this instance were shot by a gun you're point is a bit muddled.
WTF are you talking about?
  #91  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:40 PM
Eyebrows 0f Doom Eyebrows 0f Doom is online now
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As none of the victims in this instance were shot by a gun you're point is a bit muddled.
...what?
  #92  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:48 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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As none of the victims in this instance were shot by a gun you're point is a bit muddled.
An AR-15 is...what?
  #93  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:56 PM
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WTF are you talking about?
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Originally Posted by Eyebrows 0f Doom View Post
...what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
An AR-15 is...what?

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.... nobody was shot by a gun, they were shot by a person....

Yeah, it's Magiver here, that's the level we're at.

Last edited by steronz; 11-06-2017 at 08:56 PM.
  #94  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:16 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people.... nobody was shot by a gun, they were shot by a person....
.
Just as the mass killing a couple of days ago wasn't committed by a truck. It was committed by a person.

The problem is not the gun or the truck. it's the person who want's to kill people. Both killers were stopped by a person using a gun.

If all the guns were magically removed it would not limit a person from committing mass murder.
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  #95  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Just as the mass killing a couple of days ago wasn't committed by a truck. It was committed by a person.

The problem is not the gun or the truck. it's the person who want's to kill people. Both killers were stopped by a person using a gun.

If all the guns were magically removed it would not limit a person from committing mass murder.
Yeah but, they'll have to work a lot harder for a lot less mass. I seriously doubt he coulda gotten as many people in that church with a truck. He'd have to wait until they came out.
  #96  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Just as the mass killing a couple of days ago wasn't committed by a truck. It was committed by a person.

The problem is not the gun or the truck. it's the person who want's to kill people. Both killers were stopped by a person using a gun.

If all the guns were magically removed it would not limit a person from committing mass murder.
This is huge, man. So much bigger than the SDMB. You need to get your ideas out there, this is going to change the world!
  #97  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:35 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Yeah but, they'll have to work a lot harder for a lot less mass. I seriously doubt he coulda gotten as many people in that church with a truck. He'd have to wait until they came out.
Possibly. You're creating an argument based on a limiting parameter. If you watched news clips of the members of the church you would have seen images of them standing outside after mass.

You've heard the old saying "when seconds count, the police are minutes away". In this case it was an armed neighbor who ultimately stopped him.
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  #98  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Just as the mass killing a couple of days ago wasn't committed by a truck. It was committed by a person.

The problem is not the gun or the truck. it's the person who want's to kill people. Both killers were stopped by a person using a gun.

If all the guns were magically removed it would not limit a person from committing mass murder.
Let's test that out. Let's remove all guns.
  #99  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:37 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
This is huge, man. So much bigger than the SDMB. You need to get your ideas out there, this is going to change the world!
or, and I'm just throwing this out because you seem to have problems containing your emotions, you post an argument to what I said.
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  #100  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:38 PM
Spiderman Spiderman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
In this case it was an armed neighbor who ultimately stopped him.

So what's the difference between "hero" & "vigilante"? The outcome? It sure sounds to me like Johnnie Langendorff & Stephen Willeford are the latter.

Listen to Johnnie's own words in this interview. Some random stranger, who you just witnessed in a gun battle gets in your truck & the two of you proceed to chase the guy at 95 mph, weaving around traffic? Watch, they'll get a parade instead of what they should get...charges.

Last edited by Spiderman; 11-06-2017 at 09:41 PM.
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