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  #101  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:39 PM
snfaulkner snfaulkner is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Possibly. You're creating an argument based on a limiting parameter. If you watched news clips of the members of the church you would have seen images of them standing outside after mass.

You've heard the old saying "when seconds count, the police are minutes away". In this case it was an armed neighbor who ultimately stopped him.
As I understand it, he only stopped him from getting away and being prosecuted.
  #102  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:46 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Let's test that out. Let's remove all guns.
It was just tested last week in NYC. No gun used. It was tested in London earlier this year. Guns are pretty much banned there.

If you don't address the problem then your solution won't work.
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Last edited by Magiver; 11-06-2017 at 09:47 PM.
  #103  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:48 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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As I understand it, he only stopped him from getting away and being prosecuted.
the person he was mad at wasn't in church.
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Last edited by Magiver; 11-06-2017 at 09:49 PM.
  #104  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
or, and I'm just throwing this out because you seem to have problems containing your emotions, you post an argument to what I said.
Why would I argue with what you said, when it's so novel and brilliant? Have you called the New York Times yet?
  #105  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:56 PM
Spiderman Spiderman is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
the person he was mad at wasn't in church.
So he shot 46 other people, with an average of 10 rounds / person. That would be like running over 46 people in a vehicle, backing up, & going over them again twice more.
  #106  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:01 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
It was just tested last week in NYC. No gun used. It was tested in London earlier this year. Guns are pretty much banned there.

If you don't address the problem then your solution won't work.
Then what's your solution to the problem?
  #107  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:10 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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So he shot 46 other people, with an average of 10 rounds / person. That would be like running over 46 people in a vehicle, backing up, & going over them again twice more.
I'm not sure I understand your point?
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  #108  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:12 PM
Isamu Isamu is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
In this case it was an armed neighbor who ultimately stopped him.
Didn't he drive away and then kill himself? I think he probably finished what he came to do and then left.
  #109  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:15 PM
Isamu Isamu is offline
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It was tested in London earlier this year. Guns are pretty much banned there..
UIntrue. They are highly regulated.
  #110  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:19 PM
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Then what's your solution to the problem?
Define the problem which means addressing the behavior.

Just off the top of my head: bring back the mental health institutions we've shut down. Better health care in prisons. Reduce the violence in our entertainment industry. Encourage poor people to delay having children so there is a better chance of a stable family environment. Teach poor children the lessons they should have learned from their parents who lack the basic life skills to raise children.
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  #111  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:33 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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UIntrue. They are highly regulated.
highly regulated=basically banned. I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over UK Firearms laws. They are severely limited in use for personal protection.
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  #112  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:41 PM
Isamu Isamu is offline
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"Banned" has a meaning. You used it wrongly. Get over it.
  #113  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:52 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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"Banned" has a meaning. You used it wrongly. Get over it.
Basically banned has a meaning too. I'm not sure why your panties are bunching up on this. I though my meaning clear. They UK has limited guns down to the police officer level.
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  #114  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:53 PM
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  #115  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:04 PM
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Fewer guns = fewer deaths by guns. Period.
  #116  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:19 PM
purplehearingaid purplehearingaid is offline
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Originally Posted by Two Many Cats View Post
I think this would just add to the fear and paranoia of the public surrounding these incidents, not knowing anything about how or why.

It's anger, hate, and madness that motivates most of these shootings, not so much hunger for fame.
I think the news media should stop saying " This is the worst mass shooting in history " b/c more people are killed in the next mass shooting . There are people that feel like they never been notice and been treated unfairly by society . They want to people to remeber their name and the easiest way to do it commit a mass shooting bigger than the last one . I never say the shooter name b/c I don't want to keep their name alive . We should worried about why people keep missing
all the RED flags about mass shooters , like why didn't the military do their job in telling the proper authorities that that TX mass shooter had a domestic violence conviction and how long did were the police about the threating emails the TX shooter was sending to his grandmother in law.
  #117  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:43 AM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
They UK has limited guns down to the police officer level.
Most police officers in Britain do not actually carry firearms on the beat. Constabularies have designated individuals who can be authorized to go a-gunning, but most bobbies carry a stick and a can of spray.

And there are civilian firearms. People can have guns for shooting things like foxes, badgers, the King's harts and so forth. Mostly not in the cities, though.
  #118  
Old 11-07-2017, 05:27 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
highly regulated=basically banned. I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over UK Firearms laws. They are severely limited in use for personal protection.
Do you agree that regulation of firearms can be effective in reducing the number of guns in circulation? You seem to draw a line here from the regulations enforced and therefore guns being severely limited in use.
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Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 11-07-2017 at 05:28 AM.
  #119  
Old 11-07-2017, 06:45 AM
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An idea that just came to me: Jesus says to Peter in Gethsemane that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Would that not also apply to the more modern gun?

Obviously, this is only an argument I could use on Christians, which came to me because this is a church. But I wonder if there is Scripture that counter this.

(I am assuming by the other posts in this threadthat this no longer counts as a breaking thread. Apologies if I'm wrong.)

Last edited by BigT; 11-07-2017 at 06:46 AM.
  #120  
Old 11-07-2017, 07:10 AM
Paul in Qatar Paul in Qatar is offline
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The massacre in Texas is no longer on the front page of my local paper.
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Last edited by Paul in Qatar; 11-07-2017 at 07:10 AM.
  #121  
Old 11-07-2017, 08:49 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
An idea that just came to me: Jesus says to Peter in Gethsemane that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Would that not also apply to the more modern gun?
I'm not sure about this revelation of yours but it's pretty straight forward. If you go around shooting people you should expect the same treatment. It's a common sense warning not to harm people.

I'm not going to get into any kind of religious debate but you can easily google Jesus and sword. An example:
Luke 22:35-38King James Version (KJV)

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
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  #122  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:02 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Do you agree that regulation of firearms can be effective in reducing the number of guns in circulation? You seem to draw a line here from the regulations enforced and therefore guns being severely limited in use.
I would expect a correlation between firearms regulations and number of guns in circulation.

Do you agree that in the absence of guns other methods exist to kill people?
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  #123  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:04 AM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is online now
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This is a warning for you for being a jerk/trolling.
I disagree with this warning.


ATMB thread.
  #124  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:09 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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If all the guns were magically removed it would not limit a person from committing mass murder.
(A) It wouldn't take "magic", as you damn well know, and (B) Why not, it's worked everywhere in the civilized world.

Now: Obviously you'd support regulating and licensing guns and gun owners and gun sales to the same degree as trucks and truck owners and truck sales. What have you been doing to make that happen?
  #125  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:48 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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If all the guns were magically removed it would not limit a person from committing mass murder.

How? What method of mass has the ease of use and use of obtaining in the US at just about any retail hardware/camping/Walmart? Backed up by a constitutional right to obtain them?

What easily obtained weapon of mass murder could the Las Vegas shooter have used to kill over 59 people and injure over 500 in about 20 minutes from a distance?

Or the church shooter in this case?

What other weapon of mass murder is available off-the-shelf, ready for use, at your local Walmart?

Serious question, not rhetorical.
  #126  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:35 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
I would expect a correlation between firearms regulations and number of guns in circulation.
And would you expect, in general, to see gun deaths reduce as the number of guns reduces?

Quote:
Do you agree that in the absence of guns other methods exist to kill people?
Oh absolutely, very little stands in the way of a human that has decided to kill. We are nothing if not destructively, violently inventive.
Mind you, I don't see that we should be comfortable with ensure everyone has access to the easiest way of carrying it out.

The logic we often hear, and what you seem to be nodding towards is.....
Quote:
"people will always find some way of doing (negative thing) therefore there is no point in restricting (specific item) that is specifically designed for, and it makes it easier to instantly carry out (negative thing)"
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  #127  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:36 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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(A) It wouldn't take "magic", as you damn well know, and (B) Why not, it's worked everywhere in the civilized world.
It's not wanted in this country so yes, it would take magic. And I'm not sure what you think has worked in the civilized world. Whether someone uses a gun or a truck is irrelevant. It's the intent of the person and the ability to murder that is the issue. Removing guns doesn't change that.

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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Now: Obviously you'd support regulating and licensing guns and gun owners and gun sales to the same degree as trucks and truck owners and truck sales. What have you been doing to make that happen?
I don't obviously support what you suggest. We already have laws that regulate the sales of guns. It's already more difficult to purchase a gun than it is to buy a truck.
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Last edited by Magiver; 11-07-2017 at 10:37 AM.
  #128  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:53 AM
wguy123 wguy123 is offline
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I don't obviously support what you suggest. We already have laws that regulate the sales of guns. It's already more difficult to purchase a gun than it is to buy a truck.
This is not true. I, as a felon, can buy a gun from a private seller with no background check. Hand some cash over, have a gun.

While buying a truck from a private seller can be nearly as easy, you are still obligated to report the sale, pay sales tax (in some states), and pay for the title transfer and registration.
  #129  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:56 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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It's already more difficult to purchase a gun than it is to buy a truck.
It's troubling that you believe this.
  #130  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:11 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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It's troubling that you believe this.
It's not a belief. It's a fact. I can walk into any dealership and buy a truck with no restrictions. I have to pass a background check to buy a gun.
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  #131  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:14 AM
wguy123 wguy123 is offline
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It's not a belief. It's a fact. I can walk into any dealership and buy a truck with no restrictions. I have to pass a background check to buy a gun.
What about when you buy one from a private seller? See post 128.
  #132  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:16 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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It's not a belief. It's a fact. I can walk into any dealership and buy a truck with no restrictions. I have to pass a background check to buy a gun.
Really? What state are you in? I can go to Dick's Sporting Goods right now and walk out with a gun no questions asked.

I'm fairly certain that even if you wanted to pay cash for a new truck, the dealership would make you fill out SOME pieces of paper before just handing you the keys.
  #133  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:21 AM
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Basically banned has a meaning too. I'm not sure why your panties are bunching up on this. I though my meaning clear. They UK has limited guns down to the police officer level.
I know multiple private individuals in the UK who own a gun of some kind; in fact, my mother is actually legally obligated to own a gun (due to managing a zoo with potentially dangerous animals). She's currently trying to argue with the local council that she shouldn't have to have one, because she doesn't even want one and she'd never actually use it to shoot one of the animals.

If I really wanted to take up shooting, I could almost certainly get a gun licence. It'd probably take a while, and I'd need to get a secure cabinet to store any guns I purchased, but I could get one.
  #134  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:22 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Really? What state are you in? I can go to Dick's Sporting Goods right now and walk out with a gun no questions asked.

I'm fairly certain that even if you wanted to pay cash for a new truck, the dealership would make you fill out SOME pieces of paper before just handing you the keys.
I take this back. I do need to get a background check at the store and fill out an ATF Form.
  #135  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:25 AM
Spiderman Spiderman is online now
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Whether someone uses a gun or a truck is irrelevant.
The worst intentional mass killing using a truck vehicle in this country is 8 people, with almost a dozen more injured. This guy in TX killed 26 & he didn't even get the fatalities or 1/10th the injuries that happened in Vegas.

You still think a truck is a deadly as a gun?
  #136  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:27 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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This is not true. I, as a felon, can buy a gun from a private seller with no background check. Hand some cash over, have a gun.
No, you as a felon cannot buy a gun legally from a private seller. You would be breaking the law and will be subject to those penalties.

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Originally Posted by wguy123 View Post
While buying a truck from a private seller can be nearly as easy, you are still obligated to report the sale, pay sales tax (in some states), and pay for the title transfer and registration.
you'll have to cite that. Tax liability in my state doesn't require specifying the purchase, just the payment of tax. Registering the vehicle would be a function of driving it on the road just as a CCW license certifies the carrying of a gun.
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Last edited by Magiver; 11-07-2017 at 11:27 AM.
  #137  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:32 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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The worst intentional mass killing using a truck vehicle in this country is 8 people, with almost a dozen more injured. This guy in TX killed 26 & he didn't even get the fatalities or 1/10th the injuries that happened in Vegas.

You still think a truck is a deadly as a gun?
No, I think a truck is far deadlier than a gun. The recent one in NYC involved a school bus. Had he waited for school to let out he could have driven down the line of kids waiting to board the bus and then moved on to other targets.

The shooter in Las Vegas could have driven a bus into the crowd and killed many more people.

The worst mass killing in the US with a vehicle was 9/11 and thousands died.
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Last edited by Magiver; 11-07-2017 at 11:33 AM.
  #138  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:34 AM
wguy123 wguy123 is offline
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No, you as a felon cannot buy a gun legally from a private seller. You would be breaking the law and will be subject to those penalties.
Ok - do away with the felony part. Most states do not require a background check to LEGALLY buy a gun from a private party.

So, do you still stand by your statement it is easier to buy a truck than a gun?
  #139  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:37 AM
wguy123 wguy123 is offline
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The worst mass killing in the US with a vehicle was 9/11 and thousands died.
And you know what happened after that event? A gazillion new laws, regulations, agencies, driving across dams closed, etc. Massive money was spent to stop it from ever happening again.

What happens with smaller mass murders by guns? Jack and shit.
  #140  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:45 AM
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Really? What state are you in? I can go to Dick's Sporting Goods right now and walk out with a gun no questions asked.
you can't do that without passing a background check.

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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I'm fairly certain that even if you wanted to pay cash for a new truck, the dealership would make you fill out SOME pieces of paper before just handing you the keys.
There is no background check or restrictions for buying a truck.
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  #141  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:53 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Ok - do away with the felony part. Most states do not require a background check to LEGALLY buy a gun from a private party.

So, do you still stand by your statement it is easier to buy a truck than a gun?
Yes, how is it not? At best, with your example there exists a small subset of purchases of guns that can be purchased without a background check. If your intent is evil then nothing changes. Guns will still be purchased by current or future criminals illegally.
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  #142  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:00 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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And you know what happened after that event? A gazillion new laws, regulations, agencies, driving across dams closed, etc. Massive money was spent to stop it from ever happening again.
Do you feel safer with the additional screening? I'm in the aviation business. I know what goes on at airports. Whatever allusions of safety you have are misplaced.

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What happens with smaller mass murders by guns? Jack and shit.
At least one state has already passed bump-stock laws so that statement is false. What additional laws do you wish to create and how will that stop a criminal?
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  #143  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:28 PM
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Do you feel safer with the additional screening? I'm in the aviation business. I know what goes on at airports. Whatever allusions of safety you have are misplaced.

At least one state has already passed bump-stock laws so that statement is false. What additional laws do you wish to create and how will that stop a criminal?
So you are basically saying there is nothing that can be done to stop people from flying jets into buildings or people shooting mass amounts of people so we should just throw up our hands and say "gah, not again, but, what can ya do?"

It seems to be the vast majority of all these crimes are committed by men. Maybe that's the avenue we should be going after. I bet Magiver is a man....
  #144  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:29 PM
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The reason the shooter was able to purchase a firearm even though he should have failed a background check was that the Air Force failed to submit Texas shooter’s criminal history to the FBI.
  #145  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:47 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
It's not wanted in this country so yes, it would take magic.
You're surer than the evidence would support.

Quote:
Whether someone uses a gun or a truck is irrelevant. It's the intent of the person and the ability to murder that is the issue. Removing guns doesn't change that.
Removing the most efficient means of murder doesn't save any lives? Really?

That's what the civilized world already has accepted, btw.

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It's already more difficult to purchase a gun than it is to buy a truck.
Some statements are futile to counter, but can only be admired. That was one.
  #146  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:47 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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So you are basically saying there is nothing that can be done to stop people from flying jets into buildings or people shooting mass amounts of people.
No I'm not basically saying that and I already posted some suggestions.

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It seems to be the vast majority of all these crimes are committed by men.
Yes. And again, I addressed that issue although in a "read between the lines" manner. If you don't address root causes then the solution is a waste of time and money.

I'll give you a simple example, We spend billions on security systems for airports that don't work. They don't address human behavior. The Israelis use an interviewing system done in layers that focuses directly on human behavior.
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  #147  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:58 PM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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You're surer than the evidence would support.
there's no evidence to support your position. Americans don't want to give up their guns.

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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
Removing the most efficient means of murder doesn't save any lives? Really?
really. There is no logic to your premise that removing a gun has any affect on a person's ability to kill.
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  #148  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:14 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
you can't do that without passing a background check.

There is no background check or restrictions for buying a truck.
Yeah, I realized I was wrong about the background check and posted a correction.

It is only harder if you consider waiting for a background check to be "hard"
  #149  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiderman View Post
The worst intentional mass killing using a truck vehicle in this country is 8 people, with almost a dozen more injured. This guy in TX killed 26 & he didn't even get the fatalities or 1/10th the injuries that happened in Vegas.

You still think a truck is a deadly as a gun?
Yes, trucks have been as deadly as any firearm. The result of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing killed 168 people, injured more than 680 others, and destroyed one-third of the building. The blast destroyed or damaged 324 other buildings within a 16-block radius, shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings, and destroyed or burned 86 cars. According to Wiki.

Guns and trucks don't kill people. People kill people.
  #150  
Old 11-07-2017, 02:07 PM
steronz steronz is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oh-hiya-Maude
Posts: 4,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
Oklahoma City bombing
Post shortened, emphasis added, eyes rolled.
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