View Poll Results: Does restricting guns have at least some negative repercussions?
Other: no opinion, it's complicated, etc. 7 4.05%
Hell Yes! Banning or restricting guns would be a catastrophe and accomplish nothing 26 15.03%
Lots: maybe a few positives, but not worth the negatives 14 8.09%
So-so: some good things, some bad things 16 9.25%
A few, but overall restricting guns is for the better 46 26.59%
No repercussions worth considering; the fewer guns the better 64 36.99%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 02-19-2020, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Many gun lovers have signaled they will commit a felony by lying to the authorities if government exercises its legal right to ban guns. In the Age of Fake Facts, Everybody's a Constitutional Lawyer. Tell me, do you stand under a gold-fringed flag when you lie to the police?

The gun lovers pretend to be about law and order. But then they brag about how they'll turn felon when Hillary comes for their Gunzzz! Bah!
You're saying that anything- anything whatsoever- should be obeyed if it somehow gets duly passed as a law?
  #52  
Old 02-19-2020, 03:44 PM
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I believe defensive gun use rarely makes the news but vastly outnumbers offensive uses.
  #53  
Old 02-21-2020, 01:40 AM
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I live in a country where a violent felon with gang affiliations can send his girlfriend into a gun store, have her buy a gun and then she gives it to him in the parking lot.
You do not live in such a country. What you describe is in violation of several federal laws.

Or do you mean that they can get away with doing that despite the law against it? Isn't that one of the main complaints by the pro-gun side? That law abiding citizens will obey the law, but gang members and their girlfriends will continue to own and use guns despite the prohibition?
  #54  
Old 02-21-2020, 01:48 AM
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Indeed. I don't hear too many people advocating for prohibiting Americans from keeping a handgun in their home for self defense or owning a rifle or shotgun for the hunting.
(actually, I don't hear anyone advocating for restrictions like that, but I'm sure someone somewhere has proposed it)
That is exactly the prohibition (a complete handgun ban) that was at issue in Heller. Four Justices of the Supreme Court believed it to be a proper ban as did Barack Obama and all of those on the left.

Chicago had a similar ban as did many surrounding cities and if not for Heller and McDonald would continue to have those bans.

This is an alternate universe where a handgun ban is just an outrageous idea that hardly anyone proposes. Many did and would continue to do so if not ruled unconstitutional.
  #55  
Old 02-21-2020, 03:59 AM
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I believe defensive gun use rarely makes the news but vastly outnumbers offensive uses.
Unfortunately this is not necessarily a good thing.
Without gun control, you have offensive gun use.

Here in the UK we have almost zero defensive gun uses. You're not allowed a handgun and can only have a shotgun for other reasons (e.g. shooting vermin in the country.)
We also have zero school shootings.
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  #56  
Old 02-21-2020, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
Unless you qualify under the conditions of a "Disqualified person", current laws are sufficient, other than that, Shall Not Be Infringed!
This.

In fact, I'll go one step further and say the current laws are too restrictive when it comes to gun rights. I would love to get rid of NFA 34 and GCA 68, and once again buy a Thompson submachine gun mail-order through Sears.
  #57  
Old 02-21-2020, 07:39 AM
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In fact, I'll go one step further and say the current laws are too restrictive when it comes to gun rights. I would love to get rid of NFA 34 and GCA 68, and once again buy a Thompson submachine gun mail-order through Sears.
What would you use it for?

(I'm asking because the thread asks "What downsides do you think restricting guns have?" What are the downsides to you of not being able to order and own a Thompson submachine gun?)
  #58  
Old 02-21-2020, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by glee View Post
Unfortunately this is not necessarily a good thing.
Without gun control, you have offensive gun use.

Here in the UK we have almost zero defensive gun uses. You're not allowed a handgun and can only have a shotgun for other reasons (e.g. shooting vermin in the country.)
We also have zero school shootings.
You do seem to have a problem with knives, though.
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  #59  
Old 02-21-2020, 07:57 AM
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What would you use it for?

(I'm asking because the thread asks "What downsides do you think restricting guns have?" What are the downsides to you of not being able to order and own a Thompson submachine gun?)
It would be fun as hell to shoot, although I couldn't afford to very often.
Downside? Gangsters don't have them any more is as upside.
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  #60  
Old 02-21-2020, 08:02 AM
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You're saying that anything- anything whatsoever- should be obeyed if it somehow gets duly passed as a law?
If gun nuts want "We obey laws we like and disobey laws we don't" as their party platform, that's fine. Whateverness.

But in that case, might it be a teensy bit hypocritical to call their party the Law-and-Order Party?
  #61  
Old 02-21-2020, 08:46 AM
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If gun nuts want "We obey laws we like and disobey laws we don't" as their party platform, that's fine. Whateverness.

But in that case, might it be a teensy bit hypocritical to call their party the Law-and-Order Party?
You make a good point. That may also be a way to distinguish gun nuts from gun owners.
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  #62  
Old 02-21-2020, 09:40 AM
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Poll assumes the basic worldview of the gun control side: the issue should be decided based on belief of the outcome of a gun restriction policy for society on average, and not considering any concept of an individual's right to choose whether they have a gun or not based on their own interests.

IOW no poll answer 'less freedom'. That's just left to be put under the vague heading 'would be catastrophic' which again in the gun control people's mindset would probably suggest, 'crime rates skyrocket because people can't defend themselves'. Which isn't necessarily the point.

What would the actual good, to me, be to give up more of my freedom? That's a generally valid basis I believe to decide to vote for more or less govt control over my life on all fronts. And would very much depend which restrictions. I live in NJ where guns are already plenty restricted compared to any number of other US states. I don't have a big enough problem with it to move. But are we talking lots more restrictions on top of NJ level (no way would I vote for that), or on top of say AZ's level (perhaps, depends)?
  #63  
Old 02-21-2020, 09:54 AM
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You make a good point. That may also be a way to distinguish gun nuts from gun owners.
I dunno.
Are you a law-and-order type?
Do you plan to have "lost your gun in a boating accident" when Hillary comes for it?
Are you a nut or an owner?
  #64  
Old 02-21-2020, 10:10 AM
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Or a board with a nail in it.
“That board with a nail in it may have defeated us, but the humans won’t stop there. They’ll make bigger boards and bigger nails. Soon they will make a board with a nail in it so big, it will destroy them all.” -Kang
  #65  
Old 02-21-2020, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Many gun lovers have signaled they will commit a felony by lying to the authorities if government exercises its legal right to ban guns. In the Age of Fake Facts, Everybody's a Constitutional Lawyer. Tell me, do you stand under a gold-fringed flag when you lie to the police?

The gun lovers pretend to be about law and order. But then they brag about how they'll turn felon when Hillary comes for their Gunzzz! Bah!
I think most would reply that laws passed by tyrants are no laws at all and that we have no duty to obey those laws. Or as Ben Franklin said "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God"
  #66  
Old 02-21-2020, 10:56 AM
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I dunno.
Are you a law-and-order type?
Do you plan to have "lost your gun in a boating accident" when Hillary comes for it?
Are you a nut or an owner?
I believe it was a boking accident.
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  #67  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
If gun nuts want "We obey laws we like and disobey laws we don't" as their party platform, that's fine. Whateverness.

But in that case, might it be a teensy bit hypocritical to call their party the Law-and-Order Party?
A reason that an otherwise law-abiding citizen might disobey a gun control law is they believe it is a Constitutional infringement. The legislators swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and yet they pass laws that infringe on it. Such legislators should not be in office IMO.

And it's not just the Second Amendment being regularly infringed, the 4th and 5th Amendments are routinely being violated and IMO we should not accept that.

The government of the USA is of the people, by the people, and for the people and we people have been letting things slide for far too long.
  #68  
Old 02-21-2020, 12:38 PM
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A reason that an otherwise law-abiding citizen might disobey a gun control law is they believe it is a Constitutional infringement.
Already asked and answered, your Honor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Many gun lovers have signaled they will commit a felony by lying to the authorities if government exercises its legal right to ban guns. In the Age of Fake Facts, Everybody's a Constitutional Lawyer. Tell me, do you stand under a gold-fringed flag when you lie to the police?
NETA: And if the come-back is We're only doing what A. Eichmann would have done if he had been Honorable ... give us a break, OK?

Last edited by septimus; 02-21-2020 at 12:39 PM.
  #69  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:39 AM
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You're saying that anything- anything whatsoever- should be obeyed if it somehow gets duly passed as a law?
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
If gun nuts want "We obey laws we like and disobey laws we don't" as their party platform, that's fine. Whateverness.

But in that case, might it be a teensy bit hypocritical to call their party the Law-and-Order Party?
I'd still like to hear your answer to my question. The hard-line Federalists in the late 18th century held that the people had no right whatsoever to protest or resist a properly passed law; that their only recourse was to vote differently the next election, and meanwhile to shut up and do what they were told. Which gave us the Alien & Sedition Acts. Do you apply that philosophy to anything other than firearms?
  #70  
Old 02-24-2020, 01:59 AM
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You're saying that anything- anything whatsoever- should be obeyed if it somehow gets duly passed as a law?
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Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
I'd still like to hear your answer to my question. The hard-line Federalists in the late 18th century held that the people had no right whatsoever to protest or resist a properly passed law; that their only recourse was to vote differently the next election, and meanwhile to shut up and do what they were told. Which gave us the Alien & Sedition Acts. Do you apply that philosophy to anything other than firearms?
I have great admiration for people who refuse to obey unjust laws. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Mahatma Gandhi; Schindler of Schindler's List. Adolf Eichmann would have been a hero had he disobeyed Hitler's orders.

And if possessing GUNZ has the same moral weight to you as protesting the subjugation of blacks, or of protesting the Holocaust, then for you disobeying gun control laws may give you the same sense of high moral stature as a Martin Luther King, Jr.

So, Fine. Are we in agreement so far?

But to me, protecting blacks' right to vote or to use public restrooms is in a different league from ensuring that you can buy a 30-round clip for your AR-15 instead of just a 20-round clip. But that's just me.
  #71  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:06 AM
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It depends on what the restriction is. If it's gun confiscation without a repeal of the 2A, I think far more lives will be lost implementing that than would have been saved by the reduction. There will be outright civil war if that happens, without any guarantee that anything will change (you have politicians backing off on lesser restrictions when thousands of armed people show up to the capitol, obviously perfectly capable of massacring every pol in sight). And I don't see the 2A getting repealed within the lifetime of anyone alive today.

You could probably chip away at it with some benefits though.
  #72  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:16 AM
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I have great admiration for people who refuse to obey unjust laws. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Mahatma Gandhi; Schindler of Schindler's List. Adolf Eichmann would have been a hero had he disobeyed Hitler's orders.

And if possessing GUNZ has the same moral weight to you as protesting the subjugation of blacks, or of protesting the Holocaust, then for you disobeying gun control laws may give you the same sense of high moral stature as a Martin Luther King, Jr.

So, Fine. Are we in agreement so far?

But to me, protecting blacks' right to vote or to use public restrooms is in a different league from ensuring that you can buy a 30-round clip for your AR-15 instead of just a 20-round clip. But that's just me.
You're on the right track. To me the right to self defense and the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and was in fact included in the Bill of Rights for a good reason. Virginia recently tried to pass a law that restricts magazine size to 12. A truly strange number because not many firearms aside from some pistols would have a magazine that size. 30 round magazines are standard for many rifles, they aren't "high capacity" in any way except in the words of gun control advocates and politicians.

If you're trying to equate this to African Americans right to use public restrooms (which is like comparing apples and croquet balls but whatever) it would be like a law that African Americans could use public restrooms all they want, but only between 7PM and 7AM. Not outlawing African Americans using the restrooms, but just placing commonsense restrictions on it.

Last edited by control-z; 02-24-2020 at 10:18 AM.
  #73  
Old 02-25-2020, 03:40 PM
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I have great admiration for people who refuse to obey unjust laws.
Thank you.

Quote:
if possessing GUNZ has the same moral weight to you as {...}
It really does as a matter of fact.

Quote:
But to me, protecting blacks' right to vote or to use public restrooms is in a different league from {...}
Your judgement call; fair enough.
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