Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:09 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 21,470
I feel like it would be a slap in the face of my ancestors to leave.

My ancestors suffered from hundreds of years of oppression. Maybe some of the killed themselves, but they made sure to have some babies beforehand. As far as I know, they didn't hop on the first thing smoking to go back to Africa at the first opportunity. They didn't run away to Canada. They somehow managed to cope, adapt, and fight.

They paid taxes. Taxes that went towards their own oppression and the oppression of others. But by paying their taxes, they were letting the haters know they would not be moved...that this land is their home the same as anyone else's. Home not just for them, but for their children and their children's children.

I'm not about to shit on my ancestor's sacrifice just because we have a shit gibbon in the White House in this fleeting moment of time. I'm going to stay and continue doing what I can to hold down the fort. Yes, my taxes are supporting evil. But that ain't nothing new! There has never been a period in this country's history where our country wasn't engaged in evil. The only difference is that it's out in the open. Big whoop.

Napier, you can skedaddle if you want and I won't judge you none. But keep ethics out of it. It is never unethical for people to stay and fight for their homeland. It might be stupid. It might be crazy. But unethical? Get the fuck outta here with that!! The insinuation is bananas.

Last edited by monstro; 02-02-2020 at 09:10 AM.
  #52  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:25 AM
Oredigger77 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Back at 5,280
Posts: 5,409
There is no where you can run from the US. Even if you are granted citizenship and renounce your US citizenship you still have to deal with the wars, the pollution and the economic policies of the US. I'm sure there are EU members who are not NATO members and that would probably offer you the most insulation.

The only way to get away from the nightmare is to take control of the voting system. That means wealthy liberals on the coasts need to move to low population states that are red. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin should be the first targets but after that picking up ID(1.7), MT(1.1), WY(0.58), ND(0.76), SD(0.88), NE(1.9) would almost guarantee the Republicans never won again. Be one of the 7 million and you'll make a huge difference in the world. Lots of California's are already moving to MT and ID though most of them are conservatives getting pushed out.
  #53  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:31 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rural Western PA
Posts: 34,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napier View Post
Also, I don't dislike all white folks. Some of my best friends are white.
All of my best friends in the US (save one) are white, but that's just because I'm drawing from a white pool.

In Saint Martin, my home away from home, all of my best friends (save one) are black. The one white dude is a crazy alcoholic Frenchman who speaks no English, while I speak no French. We laugh, buy each other drinks, and have others translate for us.
  #54  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:43 AM
Napier is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Mid Atlantic, USA
Posts: 9,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
There is no where you can run from the US. Even if you are granted citizenship and renounce your US citizenship you still have to deal with the wars, the pollution and the economic policies of the US. I'm sure there are EU members who are not NATO members and that would probably offer you the most insulation.

The only way to get away from the nightmare is to take control of the voting system. That means wealthy liberals on the coasts need to move to low population states that are red. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin should be the first targets but after that picking up ID(1.7), MT(1.1), WY(0.58), ND(0.76), SD(0.88), NE(1.9) would almost guarantee the Republicans never won again. Be one of the 7 million and you'll make a huge difference in the world. Lots of California's are already moving to MT and ID though most of them are conservatives getting pushed out.
True, there's nowhere you can run from the US. But part of the reason for that is that we all contribute to making the US powerful.

You can definitely run from Russia. Their economy is a bit bigger than the economy of Florida and a bit smaller than the economy of New York. The US is more than an order of magnitude bigger. Russia's merely an extractive economy (though why Putin sent it this way confuses me, maybe to make it easier for him personally to control). The US has a broad and diverse economy. There's no way an unstable US won't make the word unstable, and so forth.

I share some of the responsibility for this, which is at the heart of the problem.

You do make a compelling argument to move to Pennsylvania, though. I live close already. Some of the more appealing areas of Pennsylvania are closer to my workplace than I live now.

I wonder which would be the bigger impact - my voting in Pennsylvania, or my taking my economic activity away?
  #55  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:56 AM
UY Scuti's Avatar
UY Scuti is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 1,092
If I were you, I would move to a place in Southern Europe where I could enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and forget all about politics. It's not worth it. Life is beautiful.
  #56  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:57 AM
JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 16,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
I'm not going to start thinking about migrating until bombs are literally fall down on me.
Well, perhaps not to THAT point for everyione, but yes: if you are from here, if you belong here, then first duty is to say "No. Not here. Not In My Name". When and if it does come to be time to retreat because there is no alternative left, then you do so in order to regroup and reconsider what to do next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Assuming the OP is a Trump opponent, I can think of no headline Trump and the Republicans would love to read than, "40 million liberal Democrats decide to leave America permanently, in despair, thus assuring Republican electoral victories forever."
Really. It would be empowering to their side. It would be a surrender, exactly what THEY expect -- "HAW, HAW, HAW, y'all see that, them pwecious snowflakes never cared 'bout America, when things got hot they done run away".

Maybe in the end we can't prevent the ascent of undesirable factions and the imposition of deleterious policies, but at least we can call it out and make them work for it. Of course, if we have despaired that it's inevitable all-the-way full blown fascist takeover time, that's a different thing. But ISTM we're not these

Good people who have the means to leaving America will NOT weaken it to the point it can't inflict harm, unless it's like a third of the workforce, and who's going to take them all? Otherwise culling out the best potential opposition will allow greater harm to be inflicted on those good people who can't help but remain, and make the decisions to cause harm easier to make and apply.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napier View Post
What I'm struggling with is that I'm contributing to the economy. And I'm an unwitting accomplice in the whole system. I'm paying taxes that support the policies.

I belong to most of the privilege groups including all the important ones, with the exception that I'm not in the top fraction of a percent of wealth where political power is. Tactically, life is comfortable. So it's not how I'm getting treated that's the problem. It's what's being carried out on my behalf.
So donate to people who are trying to fix that.

And vote.

And do what else you can to improve things. That's far more ethical, IMO, than ducking out and leaving those who can't to carry the bag.

Sure, if you really want to live somewhere else, and you can go live somewhere else, then go ahead. But I really wouldn't recommend trying to claim it's the only ethical choice.
Quite. If the situation becomes intolerable for you or yours, or you perceive that there is an oncoming threat you cannot handle, then by all means do take yourselves to safety. No one should challenge the ethics of such a choice made under such premises.

But, it is not "the only ethical choice." You're one of the "privileged", bad things are being done ostensibly on your behalf? You can go be a true ally to those to whom the bad things are being done, who are not privileged and do not have the luxury of quitting the game on their own terms. Make a difference within an arm's reach, in the lives of those near you. Your blue state vote does not make a difference? Support campaigns in red states. More to the edge of risk tolerance, consider if it's within your ability and how far you could get away with slow-walking, working-around, undercutting and monkeywrenching the evil policies you can't prevent or evade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
When I read about the rise of the Nazis in pre-WWII Germany, back in high school, I always wondered why the average German didn't just... leave. Well, now I know why- because it's a death by a thousand cuts. Each change is just incremental-nobody notices them, because they're so small. It's only in hindsight that it's possible to see how much things have changed, how different the country has become.
And for many of those who were imminently threatened, who wanted and most needed to get out early... other countries did not want to let them in. To our shame.
  #57  
Old 02-02-2020, 11:59 AM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
A fairly small number of Americans refused to support the war in Vietnam. By their example of going to Canada, they opened the eyes of America, and brought about the end of the war. So a small number of Americans, by leaving, can have great influence.
Are you sure that's what brought about the end of the war, rather than the much larger number of Americans who stayed Americans and made clear their objections to it?
  #58  
Old 02-02-2020, 12:13 PM
Esprise Me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Are you sure that's what brought about the end of the war, rather than the much larger number of Americans who stayed Americans and made clear their objections to it?
Yeah I balked at that too and would like to see some support for that claim.
  #59  
Old 02-02-2020, 12:22 PM
Esprise Me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Are you sure that's what brought about the end of the war, rather than the much larger number of Americans who stayed Americans and made clear their objections to it?
Yeah I balked at that too and would like to see some support for that claim.
  #60  
Old 02-02-2020, 01:00 PM
Declanium is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 230
I used to say Ireland. I have dual citizenship so I could conceivably go. But it is now experiencing high crime, worsening economy....so I donít know. Might stay put.
  #61  
Old 02-02-2020, 03:54 PM
Napier is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Mid Atlantic, USA
Posts: 9,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by UY Scuti View Post
If I were you, I would move to a place in Southern Europe where I could enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and forget all about politics. It's not worth it. Life is beautiful.
This is absolutely an aside, but every time I see your name I'm reminded of a summer I spent researching two variable stars in Scutum. I think maybe one was TT or TY and have no clue what was the other. It was 1979 I think, on Nantucket in Massachusetts. Life was beautiful, like you say.

But i don't think I could forget politics, and not because of whether it's worth it. I can't go back to '79.
  #62  
Old 02-02-2020, 04:02 PM
Broomstick's Avatar
Broomstick is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 30,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
When I read about the rise of the Nazis in pre-WWII Germany, back in high school, I always wondered why the average German didn't just... leave. Well, now I know why- because it's a death by a thousand cuts. Each change is just incremental-nobody notices them, because they're so small. It's only in hindsight that it's possible to see how much things have changed, how different the country has become.
It's not just the "death by a thousand cuts" - millions of people are simply not wanted by other countries. They can't leave. Not without becoming an illegal immigrant somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
Obviously, it's very difficult to just move to another country, so I started actively looking for work in other countries. For about six months, it looked likely that I'd be offered a job in Barcelona, but that fell through. When the job in Canada came up in my searches, I jumped on it. I'm not regretting my decision, but I must admit that I'm not a huge fan of the winter here.
How old are you?

What skills do you have?

Past 50 and with skills that, while great 30 years ago, are now largely outmoded it's is extremely unlikely I could get a job even in Canada.

Lots of people fall into the "too old to hire, too young to retire" category.

Although even if moving to another country was an option for me I think there's some merit to the "stay and try to make things better" argument. Certainly, this is a conundrum for many of us.
  #63  
Old 02-02-2020, 04:09 PM
beowulff's Avatar
beowulff is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Scottsdale, more-or-less
Posts: 17,277
As a practical matter, moving to another country isnít as easy as one might think.
My wife and I like England, and she had the opportunity to move there for a few years to study.
Turns out, unless you have a few hundred grand to spend, there is no way to do that - unless you have guaranteed employment, or can put up a (large) bond, you canít get a long-term visa.
We finally gave up trying to find an angle.
  #64  
Old 02-02-2020, 04:37 PM
Chessic Sense is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napier View Post
True, there's nowhere you can run from the US. But part of the reason for that is that we all contribute to making the US powerful.
Yeah, and that's a good thing. Whether it's good for the world is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether it's good for Americans, of which you are one. The whole premise of this thread is farcical. "Oh, it's so wrong to be part of a powerful nation." It's a joke, right?
  #65  
Old 02-02-2020, 05:09 PM
DPRK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,780
One ought not to stick one's head in the sand no matter where you are, but if, let's say, you were offered a great job in Spain, you are under absolutely no obligation not to go. After X years of residency, you will be eligible to vote there, and naturally every place has plenty of hot issues. Global migration can be positive as well, not only a response to war or crisis. It should be seen as normal, neither a moral obligation or slap in the face.

Last edited by DPRK; 02-02-2020 at 05:14 PM.
  #66  
Old 02-02-2020, 05:17 PM
DPRK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,780
[double-posted]

Last edited by DPRK; 02-02-2020 at 05:22 PM.
  #67  
Old 02-02-2020, 07:04 PM
Lightnin''s Avatar
Lightnin' is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 7,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
How old are you?

What skills do you have?
51, lots of video game development experience. And yes, I'm aware that I was extremely lucky to be able to immigrate into Canada. I'm doing my best to get my citizenship... well, in about four years or so.
__________________
What's the good of Science if nobody gets hurt?
  #68  
Old 02-02-2020, 08:37 PM
jtur88 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cebu, Philippines
Posts: 15,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Are you sure that's what brought about the end of the war, rather than the much larger number of Americans who stayed Americans and made clear their objections to it?
That would be like saying Rosa Parks had little or no influence on desegregation, it was the voters. Rosa Parks had the courage to refuse to obey an unjust law, which inspired an electorate to change it.
  #69  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:11 PM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,016
I don't think that leaving the USA to avoid the draft was generally seen as a statement of principle meant to draw attention to problems with the war. It was generally seen as a way to keep one's own ass out of it, without risking going to jail for refusing. People who already opposed the war were often sympathetic with this; people who favored the war generally seemed to think they were cowards.

I think the Vietnam veterans who came back home and threw their medals over the fence of the US Capitol had a lot more impact, myself. I don't know that there's any way to measure such things precisely, though.
  #70  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:23 PM
Loach's Avatar
Loach is offline
The Central Scrutinizer
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pork Roll/Taylor Ham
Posts: 26,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF View Post
Where would we go? Given the way the US treats immigration of late, what country would take those of us that left? What jobs would be there for us? How quickly could we assimilate? Would the country we went to be able to take us in without damaging their own interests?

Just vote the bastard out. If he gets another term we have only ourselves to blame.
Right, because all other countries had open door policies before Trump.

Itís funny how many Americans think they can just move to other countries on a whim and will be welcomed with open arms as if we are the only ones with limits on immigration.
  #71  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:56 PM
wolfpup's Avatar
wolfpup is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napier View Post

I'm just haunted by the idea that it's wrong of decent people to stay.

What do you think?
It sure looks bleak right now and some things -- like the makeup of the Supreme Court -- will be around for a while. But political pendulums tend to swing over to the other side when they've gone to extremes, and that will probably happen to at least some extent in 2020. There may even be an object lesson there in never again allowing a relatively small group of uninformed bigots to dominate the political process as a result of the apathy of the majority. For all of its problems, the US is still very far from Trump's vision of a fascist dictatorship. My brother and his family took out US citizenship many years ago and now that he's retired, is thinking of coming back to Canada where he lived most of his life. Of course he bitches like hell about the current situation, but even he -- despite his intimate familiarity with the nuances of Canadian culture -- would find the adjustments difficult to make after all these decades, not to mention the stress of the move itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss View Post
If the US sucks as badly as the OP seems to think it does, then why do we have a border crisis and millions of uninvited aliens?
Maybe because so many countries in the world totally suck, to the extent of being dangerous places where your very life is at stake, and the life and welfare of your family. Many who have managed to get into the US illegally keep right on going and head for Canada, especially in the Trump era, which has created immigration crises at some border points. They happily surrender to Canadian border authorities because to them, it's the best of all currently possible worlds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka View Post
Anybody else notice whenever people want to flee the United States it's always to the whitest of countries?
No. I've noticed that people want to flee to countries that seem to them to be most culturally similar and with economic opportunities. That's more likely to be Canada, the UK, or Australia than it is to be Nigeria or Zimbabwe. Although those coming to Canada and settling in the biggest cities like Toronto and Vancouver would be shocked to discover -- if they happened to be bigots -- that depending on what stats you read both cities are either majority non-white or very close to it. One professor recently quotes Stats Canada statistics that within about 18 years the population of Vancouver will be 70% non-white.

There's the additional burden of being accepted for immigration. Canada is one of the more open countries in that respect, but even here, aside from refugee asylum-seekers, there is a rigid point system that takes into account education and work experience, among other things. Immigrating in either direction between the US and Canada is trivial if you're a superstar in some area of business, academic, artistic, or sports achievement, but otherwise in many cases is well-nigh impossible.

Last edited by wolfpup; 02-02-2020 at 09:58 PM.
  #72  
Old 02-02-2020, 10:38 PM
nelliebly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
That would be like saying Rosa Parks had little or no influence on desegregation, it was the voters. Rosa Parks had the courage to refuse to obey an unjust law, which inspired an electorate to change it.
It's nowhere near the same thing.

Ms. Parks' action led to the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which sparked the Civil Rights Movement.

Those draftees who fled to Canada did not spark the anti-war movement. The protests and sit-ins were already happening, and they ed to some draftees fleeing to Canada. So you had it exactly backward.

20,000-30,000 draftees fled to Canada. They mostly slipped over the border one or two at a time, unnoticed. While Americans were aware of the situation and it certainly underscored the depth of feeling behind the protests, the exodus to Canada didn't have nearly as big an impact as the 500,000 protestors who demonstrated in DC, or the hundreds of thousands who protested elsewhere. It didn't have as big an impact as the Tet Offensive, the Pentagon Papers, or night after night of footage of casualties on the news.

As for me, this is my country, and I'll go down with the ship, fighting all the way. There's no way I'd leave this place to the Mitch McConnells and Trump supporters. Besides, we go, who speaks up for the less fortunate?
  #73  
Old 02-02-2020, 11:05 PM
ASL v2.0's Avatar
ASL v2.0 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Various
Posts: 993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Right, because all other countries had open door policies before Trump.

Itís funny how many Americans think they can just move to other countries on a whim and will be welcomed with open arms as if we are the only ones with limits on immigration.
This is pretty much where I come down on the question.

1) The rest of the world ainít all that great, either. Even those bastions of liberal democracy that everyone likes to point to as "so much more tolerant" do things like: ban face coverings with the specific intent of targeting muslim women (France), ban minarets attached to mosques (Switzerland), and cramóor dare I say, "concentrate"ótheir most undesirable immigrants onto an island as well as force the rest to put their children through cultural assimilation training (Denmark). Oh, and also Australia, which has arranged for an entirely different island nation with wholly inadequate facilities to house people trying to immigrate or seek asylum in Australia by boat.

2) Donít necessarily want you, the random Americanóor indeed any immigrant who canít fill a niche in their much more homogenous culture.

None of this excuses the horror show that is US immigration (or rather anti-immigration) policy or US heavy-handed ness abroad (although Iíd encourage anyone who believes that US foreign policy is strictly or even primarily to the detriment of the rest of the world to ponder just how friendly Russia and China would be as they step in to fill the void the US leaves if it turns full-blown isolationist), but I think people have a nasty tendency to assume that our faults arenít replicated elsewhere.

Oh, and fun fact. Did you know that in Germany itís actually illegal to disparage their version of democracy? Itís in the same section of law that makes it illegal to promote Nazi ideology. While the latter prohibition seems understandable enough, perhaps the former goes some way to explaining why you donít hear quite so much criticism of Germany under the "Christian Democratic Union" as you do of our "American theocracy" (as some posters have described the influence of religion on government in the US). Ooo! And on that note, letís not forget the rules the UK still has in place about "papists" (my term) marrying into the royal family.

So no. You are not, IMHO, wrong to remain in the US, and I would highly encourage you to look into what the protestors (every nation has them) are on about in other countries, and how their police forces respond.

Last edited by ASL v2.0; 02-02-2020 at 11:09 PM.
  #74  
Old 02-03-2020, 03:08 AM
jtur88 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cebu, Philippines
Posts: 15,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
It's nowhere near the same thing.

Ms. Parks' action led to the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which sparked the Civil Rights Movement.

Those draftees who fled to Canada did not spark the anti-war movement. The protests and sit-ins were already happening, and they ed to some draftees fleeing to Canada. So you had it exactly backward.
According to Wikipedia: "September 21, 1963. War Resisters League organizes first U.S. protest against Vietnam War and "anti-Buddhist terrorism" by the U.S.-supported South Vietnamese regime with a demonstration at the U.S. Mission to the UN in New York City."

I know an American who had already been in Canada for over a year by that date, disobeying orders to report to Vietnam with a gun.
  #75  
Old 02-03-2020, 08:07 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16,949
Cracked had an article on this nine years ago:

https://www.cracked.com/article_1936...-work-out.html
  #76  
Old 02-03-2020, 09:14 AM
Balthisar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 11,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by UY Scuti View Post
If I were you, I would move to a place in Southern Europe where I could enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and forget all about politics. It's not worth it. Life is beautiful.
There are politics everywhere. If you're able to ignore politics in some other place, you're able to ignore them here, too. If you can't ignore politics, then you're going to be worrying both about your home politics and the local politics.
  #77  
Old 02-03-2020, 10:10 AM
Kovitlac is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 587
This feels like such a bizarre thing to worry about. If you don't like it here, move. If you do, stay.

I honestly don't get the people who complain about each and every single thing, yet continue to stay. Obviously the US is far from perfect, and I'm not at all opposed to people who want to change things. But if it's so bad you're convinced no good comes from the US, everything is horrible, all these other countries are better, we're a moral wasteland, etc etc, then...just go? See how well it goes for you elsewhere. Mail me a letter
  #78  
Old 02-03-2020, 10:19 AM
Kovitlac is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL v2.0 View Post
This is pretty much where I come down on the question.

1) The rest of the world ainít all that great, either. Even those bastions of liberal democracy that everyone likes to point to as "so much more tolerant" do things like: ban face coverings with the specific intent of targeting muslim women (France), ban minarets attached to mosques (Switzerland), and cramóor dare I say, "concentrate"ótheir most undesirable immigrants onto an island as well as force the rest to put their children through cultural assimilation training (Denmark). Oh, and also Australia, which has arranged for an entirely different island nation with wholly inadequate facilities to house people trying to immigrate or seek asylum in Australia by boat.

2) Donít necessarily want you, the random Americanóor indeed any immigrant who canít fill a niche in their much more homogenous culture.

None of this excuses the horror show that is US immigration (or rather anti-immigration) policy or US heavy-handed ness abroad (although Iíd encourage anyone who believes that US foreign policy is strictly or even primarily to the detriment of the rest of the world to ponder just how friendly Russia and China would be as they step in to fill the void the US leaves if it turns full-blown isolationist), but I think people have a nasty tendency to assume that our faults arenít replicated elsewhere.

Oh, and fun fact. Did you know that in Germany itís actually illegal to disparage their version of democracy? Itís in the same section of law that makes it illegal to promote Nazi ideology. While the latter prohibition seems understandable enough, perhaps the former goes some way to explaining why you donít hear quite so much criticism of Germany under the "Christian Democratic Union" as you do of our "American theocracy" (as some posters have described the influence of religion on government in the US). Ooo! And on that note, letís not forget the rules the UK still has in place about "papists" (my term) marrying into the royal family.

So no. You are not, IMHO, wrong to remain in the US, and I would highly encourage you to look into what the protestors (every nation has them) are on about in other countries, and how their police forces respond.
Awesome contribution. The US is far from perfect, but I'm pretty happy here, and while there are no doubt other countries I'd feel happy in as well (I tend to ignore politics for the most part), why put in the effort to move when I'm perfectly fine here? Like you said, other countries have their own shortcomings as well. The bashing the US gets from people who live here and enjoy a LOT of benefits and privileges they don't even care to acknowledge is really insane.
  #79  
Old 02-03-2020, 10:24 AM
Kovitlac is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
Immigrating in either direction between the US and Canada is trivial if you're a superstar in some area of business, academic, artistic, or sports achievement, but otherwise in many cases is well-nigh impossible.
Interesting. I'll have to let my mom know, even though she has absolutely no shortage of ESL students (mostly Mexican), ordinary folks who arrive here with nothing and go on to become US citizens.
  #80  
Old 02-03-2020, 11:19 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,131
@ OP ó Your priority should be to do what's best for you and your family. Unless you have a cushy job lined up in another country, the best course is most probably to stay in the U.S. with your successful career. (I'm assuming that forced conversations with Trump-lickers aren't frustrating you and driving you batso ó a reason I've no plans to return to U.S.)

If you feel a moral obligation to oppose the Republican autocracy and to work for its downfall, that can best be accomplished inside the U.S.
  #81  
Old 02-03-2020, 11:25 AM
Esprise Me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
According to Wikipedia: "September 21, 1963. War Resisters League organizes first U.S. protest against Vietnam War and "anti-Buddhist terrorism" by the U.S.-supported South Vietnamese regime with a demonstration at the U.S. Mission to the UN in New York City."

I know an American who had already been in Canada for over a year by that date, disobeying orders to report to Vietnam with a gun.
And that proves what, exactly? If anything, the fact that people were leaving long before the war became unpopular tends to show the opposite.
  #82  
Old 02-03-2020, 11:27 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 3,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
When I read about the rise of the Nazis in pre-WWII Germany, back in high school, I always wondered why the average German didn't just... leave. Well, now I know why- because it's a death by a thousand cuts. Each change is just incremental-nobody notices them, because they're so small. It's only in hindsight that it's possible to see how much things have changed, how different the country has become.

Me, I moved to Canada almost a year ago. I looked around and saw that things weren't going to get better, at least not before they got a lot worse. So far, I gotta say it's looking like I was right. So... yay me?

Obviously, it's very difficult to just move to another country, so I started actively looking for work in other countries. For about six months, it looked likely that I'd be offered a job in Barcelona, but that fell through. When the job in Canada came up in my searches, I jumped on it. I'm not regretting my decision, but I must admit that I'm not a huge fan of the winter here.
I've heard it's pretty difficult to move to Canada? Mind sharing how you went about doing it?
  #83  
Old 02-03-2020, 11:34 AM
AHunter3's Avatar
AHunter3 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NY (Manhattan) NY USA
Posts: 20,994
Like the employee who has never worked anywhere else, I have no familiarity with life in other countries (tourist experience doesn't seem relevant) and I don't know who'd want a guy in his 60s who would need income for at least a few more years (even assuming USA retirement continues to exist / the US dollar doesn't become the new useless inflated currency and eat my investments' usefulness).

I'm willing and able to work and I have some skills for which I've been paid and stuff. Anyone in some other country think your nation would want to have me? I've always thought it would be good to not live my whole life in just one country anyhow.
  #84  
Old 02-03-2020, 11:48 AM
Pardel-Lux's Avatar
Pardel-Lux is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Berlin
Posts: 381
So I guess we will have to build a wall in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and the USA is going to pay for it.
__________________
How happy many people could be if they only cared about other people's business as little as they care about their own! - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
  #85  
Old 02-03-2020, 12:24 PM
wolfpup's Avatar
wolfpup is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 11,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovitlac View Post
Interesting. I'll have to let my mom know, even though she has absolutely no shortage of ESL students (mostly Mexican), ordinary folks who arrive here with nothing and go on to become US citizens.
ESL has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is well stated here:
America's immigration system is designed to only admit newcomers who fall into very specific categories. If someone falls outside those cases, as many central American migrants do, lawful immigration will be challenging, if not impossible.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...s-trump-2017-4
More here:

https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo...lity-quiz.html

What it amounts to is that if you don't fall into one of the special categories, are not a refugee claiming asylum (or, often, even if you are), and are not a visa lottery winner from a designated country, then legal immigration to the US may be difficult to impossible. We had this discussion on this board before but I can't find it now. Someone was saying that the average Joe working the average job in a modern western country would have essentially zero chance of getting a permanent US resident and work visa, barring an international corporate transfer, having immediate relatives in the US, or being in one of the other special categories, and I completely agreed with that.

It's slightly easier to get into Canada because of the points qualification system. Here are a bunch of stories about thousands of Americans who have moved to Canada for reasons similar to those articulated in the OP:
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...7&postcount=75
  #86  
Old 02-03-2020, 01:08 PM
DPRK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,780
If you are a worker, not a businessman or investor or retiree, the usual way to get a visa to reside in a new country is to have a permanent job offer in hand. Of course, you still may have obstacles if you are not in good health, or are over 60 and have to deal with mandatory retirement policies (the age is starting to increase in many countries, though.)

As for immigration TO the US, well, I know a couple of people who were able to get in with a good visa (O visa, which can be extended indefinitely) but even then it wasn't a matter of showing up with a crumpled-up offer of employment; the sponsoring organization really had to put in some resources to generate the phonebook of required paperwork. I equally know talented people who were unable to immigrate to the US because of these visa complications and had to move to places like Australia and Sweden rather than contribute to the US economy which was their first choice. The Chinese and Mongolians are also hiring (though probably not at the salaries you want).

If you are over 60 and want to retire somewhere and have enough money to support yourself without working, you might also consider a non-working residency permit- you won't be able to seek employment, but (if that's OK) at least you can live out your dream of living in a different country.
  #87  
Old 02-03-2020, 05:00 PM
carnut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: State of Hockey
Posts: 5,272
I'd love to live and work in Canada, but they aren't interested. I'm 59. I have tried a few times to get contracting jobs there, but either they haven't nibbled or, with a couple of contracts, the project either fell through or got shelved before I started. Waah.
  #88  
Old 02-03-2020, 05:01 PM
Napier is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Mid Atlantic, USA
Posts: 9,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Cracked had an article on this nine years ago:

https://www.cracked.com/article_1936...-work-out.html
Wow. This is very eye opening. I can't judge how accurate or current it is, but it certainly makes moving sound awful.
  #89  
Old 02-03-2020, 08:11 PM
Balthisar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 11,504
I've actually lived and worked in Canada, sponsored by my employer. The GTA. It was always nice to come home, because, like Dorothy says, paraphrased, there ain't quite no other place quite like it.

How to get in: have a job, and it's pretty easy.
  #90  
Old 02-04-2020, 01:02 AM
rowrrbazzle's Avatar
rowrrbazzle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicago
Posts: 8,787
Lots of celebrities have said they'd leave the USA if {Bush, Trump, whoever} was elected/re-elected. How many actually have? What does that tell you?
  #91  
Old 02-04-2020, 08:19 AM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 221B Baker St.
Posts: 89,059
It is not wrong to remain. A patriotic American should stay and vote and fight to change the things he or she doesn't like about this country, and stay and vote and fight to keep the things he or she does like. Democracy is a journey, not a destination.
  #92  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:11 AM
HeyHomie's Avatar
HeyHomie is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Viburnum, MO
Posts: 10,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
The only way to get away from the nightmare is to take control of the voting system. That means wealthy liberals on the coasts need to move to low population states that are red. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin should be the first targets but after that picking up ID(1.7), MT(1.1), WY(0.58), ND(0.76), SD(0.88), NE(1.9) would almost guarantee the Republicans never won again. Be one of the 7 million and you'll make a huge difference in the world.
I am not being snarky or facetious when I say that this is at once one of the most comforting, and insightful, posts I've ever read on the SDMB.

I have very seriously considered looking into moving to South America before the shit hits the fan. But after reading this, I'm convinced that staying here in Missouri (once a swing state, but has since drunk the Trump Kool Aid) is the right thing to do. Sure, my blue vote is just one of a million or so, but better I cast that vote than don't.
  #93  
Old 02-04-2020, 12:41 PM
Lightnin''s Avatar
Lightnin' is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 7,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge View Post
I've heard it's pretty difficult to move to Canada? Mind sharing how you went about doing it?
Short answer- I got lucky.

Long answer- I'm a specialist, in a very specialized field, with 20+ years of experience in an industry in which the average professional lifespan is five years. Furthermore, Alberta (where I moved) was (at the time) investing heavily into tech to try to ease out of relying only upon oil for its economy. That changed, though, when the conservative party got into control a few months ago, of course- now it's oil all the way.

A friend of mine had been working remotely with this company, and announced over Facebook that they were looking for someone with my experience. The company snatched me up, and helped me get my work visa.
__________________
What's the good of Science if nobody gets hurt?

Last edited by Lightnin'; 02-04-2020 at 12:42 PM.
  #94  
Old 02-04-2020, 12:48 PM
Jasmine's Avatar
Jasmine is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,613
I'd like to move to Sweden, I really would, but I have no job waiting for me there and know no one. They'd be crazy to let me in, and so they wouldn't.
__________________
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."
--Daniel J Boorstin
  #95  
Old 02-04-2020, 01:07 PM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rural Western PA
Posts: 34,262
Thirty years ago a woman I knew married an Australian. All of his family was in Australia, while she had no family anywhere. They logically decided to head to Australia.

He, as a citizen, was welcomed back home. While his wife could accompany him, she could not work in her field, as that would potentially be taking a job away from a citizen. They struggled along for a while, but after about 5 years she was ok'd for work.
  #96  
Old 02-04-2020, 01:40 PM
RomeoOscarMike116 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
A fairly small number of Americans refused to support the war in Vietnam. By their example of going to Canada, they opened the eyes of America, and brought about the end of the war. So a small number of Americans, by leaving, can have great influence.
I understand why the Vietnam war was unpopular - sending our young men to die in a jungle halfway around the world seems ridiculous on its face. But consider the consequences, and the similar example of South Korea. "In 1975, it appeared that the Vietnam War was a clear loss for the United States. But while much of Indochina did become Communist, validating the domino theory to an extent, the war left mostly psychological scars in the United States. It did not affect the United Statesí status as a superpower, and though North Vietnam ďwonĒ the war, realizing Ho Chi Minhís lifelong dream, Vietnamís postwar period was filled with more fighting, poverty, and suffering for its people. Today, as capitalism makes inroads in Vietnam, one would hardly suspect that Communists won the war in 1975." - SparkNotes. Compare that to the economic, liberal, and democratic success of South Korea (especially vs. the North), and you cannot argue that the U.S. giving up in Vietnam was a net positive for that country.
  #97  
Old 02-04-2020, 03:35 PM
Gymnopithys is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,242
Switzerland would welcome you if you have brains (and money of course) but the problems are the same here, except we don't have no nincompoops at the top.
  #98  
Old 02-04-2020, 08:59 PM
DPRK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
I'd like to move to Sweden, I really would, but I have no job waiting for me there and know no one. They'd be crazy to let me in, and so they wouldn't.
As I mentioned, I know somebody who did just that, and IMHO it ought to be, in the absence of other information, seen as neutral to move from the USA to Sweden or vice versa, no better or worse than moving from Denmark to Sweden. Maybe it was a personal career move; why assume it was a political statement? Also some Swedes move out, and not always to EU or Western or even first-world countries.

BTW you don't have to be an Olympic gold medalist or anything, but, like most countries, generally speaking you need a job offer in hand before heading to Sweden in order to get your work permit, and, as usual, that job will need to have been advertised for ten days or so in the EU before they can offer it to you. So, realistically, they will need to have you specifically in mind for the job, so you will absolutely need to know them (perhaps from a previous temporary gig in Sweden during which you impressed them).

ETA but, yeah, like people are saying, before you move to Sweden or Switzerland or South Korea or anywhere else, make sure it's not just because you imagine the grass is greener there.

Last edited by DPRK; 02-04-2020 at 09:02 PM.
  #99  
Old 02-04-2020, 09:06 PM
jtur88 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cebu, Philippines
Posts: 15,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
And that proves what, exactly? If anything, the fact that people were leaving long before the war became unpopular tends to show the opposite.
It proves, exactly, that the specific post I was responding to was wrong. It said protests preceded draft-relayed emigration to Canada.

Last edited by jtur88; 02-04-2020 at 09:09 PM.
  #100  
Old 02-05-2020, 02:11 PM
Gatopescado is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: on your last raw nerve
Posts: 23,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Better to just stick around and quietly despair.
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017