#201  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Hellestal View Post
It might be one out of a thousand sea lions that act like that.
No, in that world, all sealions are dicks.
  #202  
Old 10-19-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
Just so I'm clear, you're now saying that sealioning, at least how it's been defined here nicely by Ravenman and Bone, is a thing and HD for one engages in it?

Nope. Just that HD is clearly engaging in obnoxious trolling with those thread titles (I didn’t read the actual OPs and I doubt they would change my mind). I see no parallel with the sea lion comic.



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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
You seriously think he isn't?

But can we be clear that politely asking questions is not "all he's doing"?

Yes, but what exactly is very unclear. The crux is what the “home” represents. If it’s an unprotected tweet, the metaphor is fundamentally rotten and disingenuous.
  #203  
Old 10-19-2019, 12:53 PM
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Yes, but what exactly is very unclear. The crux is what the “home” represents. If it’s an unprotected tweet, the metaphor is fundamentally rotten and disingenuous.
Not really. Even on the internet, bubbles and semi-private spaces exist even when they're technically open public spaces. Like, in your example/conspiracty theory about young nubile persons of color college girls trash talking all white men for the benefit of their friends and followers on the twitters, you (the middle aged antifeminist trog) have no real reason to be there, read their shit or stumble upon that content unless you're friends with said college girl or you're directed to go and look at what those people are saying by no doubt well intentioned twitter users. In other words, unless you set out looking for outrage and stupid people to be outraged by (though, again, I've yet to meet the prophecized shrieking manhating feminazi. And I'm actually a middle aged white guy who's back in college, where they supposedly nest). That's on you.
Similarly, if you're set to harass someone because of what they said on one forum, look up which other forums they frequent and start some shit there, then the home analogy works perfectly fine as well. At that point you're invading a community for the sole purpose of being a dick and turning it into a hostile space, not just for the person you're harassing, but everyone else there as well.

Whereas what normal people do on the interwebs when they read tweets they deem to be assholish by people who are assholes is... move away, with or without leaving one "well fuck YOU" comment. But don't follow that person, put them on the /ignore list, and simply avoid the company of assholes, which is a lot easier to do on the web than in meatspace. It's utterly dysfunctional and toxic to feel the need to a) make that person not say those things ever again and b) feel that you are entitled to have that person listen to you or respond to your arguments and/or insults to the point that you're stalking them around the internet (and, in the case of Gamergate for example, enjoining others to stalk them as well).
  #204  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:09 PM
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Not really. Even on the internet, bubbles and semi-private spaces exist even when they're technically open public spaces. Like, in your example/conspiracty theory about young nubile persons of color college girls trash talking all white men for the benefit of their friends and followers on the twitters, you (the middle aged antifeminist trog) have no real reason to be there, read their shit or stumble upon that content unless you're friends with said college girl or you're directed to go and look at what those people are saying by no doubt well intentioned twitter users. In other words, unless you set out looking for outrage and stupid people to be outraged by (though, again, I've yet to meet the prophecized shrieking manhating feminazi. And I'm actually a middle aged white guy who's back in college, where they supposedly nest). That's on you.
Similarly, if you're set to harass someone because of what they said on one forum, look up which other forums they frequent and start some shit there, then the home analogy works perfectly fine as well. At that point you're invading a community for the sole purpose of being a dick and turning it into a hostile space, not just for the person you're harassing, but everyone else there as well.

Whereas what normal people do on the interwebs when they read tweets they deem to be assholish by people who are assholes is... move away, with or without leaving one "well fuck YOU" comment. But don't follow that person, put them on the /ignore list, and simply avoid the company of assholes, which is a lot easier to do on the web than in meatspace. It's utterly dysfunctional and toxic to feel the need to a) make that person not say those things ever again and b) feel that you are entitled to have that person listen to you or respond to your arguments and/or insults to the point that you're stalking them around the internet (and, in the case of Gamergate for example, enjoining others to stalk them as well).
I disagree with that. If you post on a public forum the public has every right to participate. You can create closed spaces easily enough if that’s what you wish.

Last edited by octopus; 10-19-2019 at 01:09 PM.
  #205  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:13 PM
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As I said, many people believe they ought to have the right to broadcast any insults they feel like spewing on an open area of Twitter, and for this to attract as many likeminded strangers as possible to join the amen chorus, while simultaneously being protected from any objection presented by those who are the targets of the insults. I call bullshit on that.
  #206  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:18 PM
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So brave!
  #207  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:47 PM
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So brave!
Are you sealioning?
  #208  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
As I said, many people believe they ought to have the right to broadcast any insults they feel like spewing on an open area of Twitter, and for this to attract as many likeminded strangers as possible to join the amen chorus, while simultaneously being protected from any objection presented by those who are the targets of the insults. I call bullshit on that.
If there is anything missing from the cartoon, it is the implied part of the man who for sure has already dealt with bad faith harasser seals.

http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/
Quote:
The biggest reason why people hate sealioning is because responding to it is a complete waste of time.

It's an insidious trap. Responding to questions asked reasonably is, of course, a natural thing for people to do. I like to do it myself; educating others is generally pretty entertaining, especially if they are receptive to learning. Dismissing those questions can appear condescending or rude, especially if you actually are condescending or rude.

Of course, these questions are not asked because the person genuinely wants to know. If they did, they would do their own digging based on your statements, and only ask for obscure or difficult-to-discover information. This is the "debate principle"; when you go to a debate, you educate yourself on the topics at hand, and only request evidence when a claim is either quite outlandish or unflinchingly obscure.

No, these questions are asked to make you waste your time. It works, too; I've responded to sealions before, answering all their questions and claims for evidence, only to be greeted by even more willful ignorance. It's a way to force you into responding to questions phrased neutrally but asked in bad faith.

So what does asking in bad faith mean?

When you ask a question in bad faith, you are essentially looking for a way to demean, degrade, or otherwise destroy your target. A good example of an obviously bad faith question is the perennial favorite "When did you stop beating your wife?" as it instantly casts doubt upon the person asked the question.

However, it's easy to ask a question in bad faith using reasoned, good faith practices. Neutral phrasing does not always guarantee a question is asked in good faith. This is extremely obvious in documented sealioning; the target responds, only for the questioner to immediately grill them for more information, misinterpret the answer, or dismiss it entirely.

The purpose of sealioning never to actually learn or become more informed. The purpose is to interrogate. Much like actual interrogators, sealioners bombard the target with question after question, digging and digging until the target either says something stupid or is so pissed off that they react in the extreme.
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/.../sea-lion.html
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in an online conversation, repeatedly asking a person questions or making comments which suggest that you are interested in what they are talking about, but are actually intended to annoy them
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-trolljacking
Quote:
Sea lioning is the process of killing with dogged kindness and manufactured ignorance by asking questions, then turning on the victim in an instant. “In this, the perpetrator endlessly nitpicks and relentlessly pursues the topic, but oh so very politely and, when the target finally gets annoyed and retaliates, the sea lion takes on the wronged victim of abuse role,” says Hardaker.

The solution is a simple one: just don’t engage with the troll in the first place. However, this can be difficult to do – a suspected sea lion may in fact just be a genuinely curious individual looking to learn more. So rather than ignoring them outright or devoting precious time to discussing the individual merits and drawbacks of a point with them, courteously directing them to a third-party resource – a couple of links to news stories about the matter at hand – can help nullify their attempts to derail your day.

What to say: “Here’s a peer-reviewed, academically rigorous link explaining all the information you need. Have a great day!” *Block*
  #209  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:26 PM
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I disagree with that. If you post on a public forum the public has every right to participate. You can create closed spaces easily enough if that’s what you wish.
Who said anything about rights ? It's about being a jerk. Nobody said you didn't have a right to be a jerk. We just all wish you didn't avail yourself of that right, on account of it being, by some accounts, a little jerkish and annoying to fucking everyone else but you.

Actually there actually is a rule here about not being a jerk, so there you go.
  #210  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:27 PM
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GIGO’s cites in no way respond to my point, and by extension don’t actually address what is portrayed in the comic:

Quote:
Of course, these questions are not asked because the person genuinely wants to know. If they did, they would do their own digging based on your statements, and only ask for obscure or difficult-to-discover information.

How would the sea lion do his own digging to find out why the woman doesn’t like sea lions? Why would you assume he is insincere in wondering if she actually knows any sea lions personally?

Again, you and the people at these cites clearly want it to mean something completely different from what is directly portrayed in the comic. Just get another term then!
  #211  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
As I said, many people believe they ought to have the right to broadcast any insults they feel like spewing on an open area of Twitter, and for this to attract as many likeminded strangers as possible to join the amen chorus, while simultaneously being protected from any objection presented by those who are the targets of the insults. I call bullshit on that.
For the umpteenth time, merely responding to someone or engaging someone who you feel are Wrong On The Internet is not the issue. You keep trying to assert that "oh well anyone who says anything to WOC feminists is called a sealion !", but that's simply not true.
The problem isn't with objecting, but in the way and the extent you're objecting and the specific form that objection takes. Trolling and harassment is not OK. If you are not trolling those WOC feminazis and if you're not harassing them and following them around to bombard them with "polite" questions asked in bad faith, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.
  #212  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
GIGO’s cites in no way respond to my point, and by extension don’t actually address what is portrayed in the comic:

How would the sea lion do his own digging to find out why the woman doesn’t like sea lions? Why would you assume he is insincere in wondering if she actually knows any sea lions personally?

Again, you and the people at these cites clearly want it to mean something completely different from what is directly portrayed in the comic. Just get another term then!
Nope, clearly you are willfully missing about what the man in the cartoon clearly implies, He knows beforehand about what sealions do, and they are not going to do it in good faith; it is also clear that you do not like to deal with the points the cites make.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 10-19-2019 at 02:38 PM.
  #213  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:49 PM
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Nope. Just that HD is clearly engaging in obnoxious trolling with those thread titles (I didn’t read the actual OPs and I doubt they would change my mind). I see no parallel with the sea lion comic.
....
I specifically asked about whether it fits with the definition that Bone and Ravenman supplied, not the comic.

Man, your reading comprehension could use some help -- you read that comic and think it's about white men for some reason and you read my post and think it's about the comic. I suppose we all read with filters on but, man, yours are strong.
  #214  
Old 10-19-2019, 02:50 PM
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None of these are questions, thus I don't need to respond.
You're right, I'm actually not all that great at this trolling thing.

Try again:
Why won't you wear red? You claim that you have nothing against red, but your shirts and ties are all blue, those aren't the actions of someone who doesn't have anything against red. How can you say that you have nothing against red, when you are obviously biased toward blue?
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I don't consider asking someone to define what they are posting and why they are posting it as a disruption.
If I have already defined what I am posting, then asking me to explain it over and over again to *you* satisfaction is disruptive.

Using treason to mean "betrayal" is entirely valid. It is in the dictionary and everything. That I am not using treason in the way that you want it to be defined is your problem, not mine.
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It seems to me that only people who don't want to actually explain their opinion on a topic would consider it disruptive, since it generally looks to me that they only want people to agree with them without any thought involved.
Well, that's just poor observation on your part. People explain their opinions on topics all the time.

What you are looking for here is not someone to explain their opinion, it is to justify their opinion to your satisfaction.
Quote:
That's fair. That makes rebuttals simple - "I don't agree with you that betraying the Kurds is treason."
And that's fine, if you have a narrow definition of the word treason, and you are only willing to use that narrow definition while discussing issues with others. But forcing everyone else to use the terminology that you prefer is not.
Quote:
My guess is at that point, a poster would say "Of course it's treason you Trump lover!" because now it seems like we are moving more toward a "Just agree with me or else I will call you a sealioning troll!" type of subject.
Your guess is not a cite.
Quote:
A more productive conversation would be

You: We shouldn't betray the Kurds because of such and such reasons.

Me: I agree, or, I disagree.
Right, which is why, when instead of explaining why you agree or disagree why we should betray the Kurds, you instead focus on a single word that was not used in a way that you approve of, you are not contributing to a productive conversation.

If you feel that something is hyperbole, then get over it. If it merits a mention, then mention and get over it. To focus on what you feel is hyperbole is to derail the conversation.

For instance

Me: We shouldn't betray the Kurds because of such and such reasons. What we did is treason.

Which part of that post should you focus on? You already said how you would reply to the first, but adding the second tends to make you ignore the first sentence, in order to focus on the second that contains word choice that you disapprove of.
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But it seems to me that people like to use the worst possible words to describe something they think is bad, and when called on it, get defensive and now start saying "sealioning!"
Ah, worst possible words, you say? Now that is hyperbole. There are worse possible words that people could use to describe things. Just because you do not agree that they are appropriate words, or that the words are stronger than is merited by what they describe, does not make them inaccurate, nor does it make them "the worst possible".

Quote:
See the "Concentration camp" thread for an example.
See "Death Camps" for example.

Concentration camp is a very accurate term for holding a bunch of people in high density living arrangements. That it has some baggage that it picked up because Nazis used concentration camps is not the fault of someone who accurately describes something happening. Once again, this is an example of objecting to a word or term, not because it is wrong or inaccurate, but only because you don't like it. This serves only as a distraction from the discussion as to whether or not the detentions are justified and the living conditions are humane.

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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
That's what Humpty Dumpty said.
That's not what he said.
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
I disagree with that. If you post on a public forum the public has every right to participate. You can create closed spaces easily enough if that’s what you wish.
So, your message is: Stay out of public unless you are willing to be harassed and stalked?

Last edited by k9bfriender; 10-19-2019 at 02:51 PM.
  #215  
Old 10-19-2019, 03:42 PM
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Yes
So you acknowledge objecting and questioning is not "literally all he is doing". Was that so hard? What it's a metaphor for is irrelevant.

And only unclear to some people, I didn't have a problem getting exactly what was being conveyed.
  #216  
Old 10-19-2019, 03:46 PM
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So, your message is: Stay out of public unless you are willing to be harassed and stalked?
Why am I reminded of Cervaise vs the Telemarketer? "I have a butthole, too, but that doesn't imply I want a running jigsaw inserted into it."
  #217  
Old 10-19-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
What it's a metaphor for is irrelevant.

It most certainly is not.


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Man, your reading comprehension could use some help -- you read that comic and think it's about white men for some reason and you read my post and think it's about the comic.

I still firmly believe my interpretation of the comic is a solid inference, but I can acknowledge that it is my perception of the subtext rather than being inarguably the plain meaning of the text. For you to insist you can make confident proclamations about “sealioning” even when they directly contradict what is shown in the comic is a very tenuous proposition indeed. With the comic so recent and the term still unknown to most people, it’s just not credible to claim that the meaning of this term is so starkly at odds with what we see laid out in the comic.
  #218  
Old 10-19-2019, 05:44 PM
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but that doesn't imply I want a running jigsaw inserted into it."
You should try it though. At least once. It's hot.
  #219  
Old 10-19-2019, 05:57 PM
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Again, you and the people at these cites clearly want it to mean something completely different from what is directly portrayed in the comic. Just get another term then!

Why ? We all understand what it's about. Wr all grok what people the comic is lampooning. You're literally the only person white knighting sealions. Why should we give a lonely fuck what your interpretation of the term, or the comic, is ? Again, WHY ?

To give you an absurd example, imagine we were all discussing fracking and the damage it does to the environment and the measurable impact it has (or has not) on local communities ; and you were convinced the word "fracking" really was about Battlestar Galactica and its fandom. In that context, wouldn't you feel the fool going on and on and on about Cylons and the methods with which the protagonists of the series deal with them, when all of us are talking about oil companies ?
Because that's really where you're at. Open yourself to the possibilty, remote as it may seem, that you might conceivably possibly in some respect be wrong. On the internet.
It's not the end of the world.

Last edited by Kobal2; 10-19-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #220  
Old 10-19-2019, 05:58 PM
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Kobal, I think he has you on ignore.
  #221  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:01 PM
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I guess we'll see. Lion.
  #222  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:07 PM
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I still firmly believe my interpretation of the comic is a solid inference, but I can acknowledge that it is my perception of the subtext rather than being inarguably the plain meaning of the text. For you to insist you can make confident proclamations about “sealioning” even when they directly contradict what is shown in the comic is a very tenuous proposition indeed. With the comic so recent and the term still unknown to most people, it’s just not credible to claim that the meaning of this term is so starkly at odds with what we see laid out in the comic.
It's also possible that the comic is not the canonical source on sealioning; it's just one person's hyberbolic humerous (and possibly flawed) depiction of a phenomenon already well-known to others.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:08 PM
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I don’t have anyone on ignore. I just don’t have much to say about this kind of weak attempt at gaslighting.

ETA:

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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
It's also possible that the comic is not the canonical source on sealioning; it's just one person's hyberbolic humerous (and possibly flawed) depiction of a phenomenon already well-known to others.

It’s possible. If you can demonstrate that is true from a cite that predates the comic, I will issue a mea culpa. Until then, my assumption is that the comic is the source of the term.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 10-19-2019 at 06:12 PM.
  #224  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:12 PM
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Who said anything about rights ? It's about being a jerk. Nobody said you didn't have a right to be a jerk. We just all wish you didn't avail yourself of that right, on account of it being, by some accounts, a little jerkish and annoying to fucking everyone else but you.

Actually there actually is a rule here about not being a jerk, so there you go.
If you don’t want the public to opine don’t publish publicly. And by opining I don’t mean threats, doxing, intimidation, bike locking or anything of that nature.
  #225  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:15 PM
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Which shouldn’t even need saying since this whole concept is not remotely related to any of that stuff.
  #226  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:30 PM
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Who here has been near actual sea lions? I have lain in sand 10 feet / 3 meters from the smelly beasts. You can too if brave+silly enough. Goto Año Nuevo State Reserve south of San Francisco. But I don't recommend getting close. Those guys are FAST!

Back to the cartoon. The woman says she's okay with most marine mammals but can do without sea lions. (Similarly, I'm okay with dishes but I can do without gilded plates. And elephant seals don't excite me but other pinnipeds don't much bother me.) A fat, stinky, slimy pinniped pops up and requests evidence supporting her 'dislike' - which is not what she said; the critter has raised the heat. Had she responded with, "You're a fat, stinky, slimy pinniped - now get the fuck away from me!" would the critter have departed? Or would it have asked for evidence of fatness, and then for a definition of 'fat', and for cites supporting her position, and then on to stinkiness and sliminess, et al, while following her wherever she goes, in public if not private?

I saw no ethnic-social-religious-economic-artistic metaphors in the cartoon. I saw an annoying-online-jerk metaphor. Maybe I've not consumed enough drugs to see deeper meanings. More medications, please.
  #227  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
That's not what he said.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

k9bfriender "You do not need to accept my definition of treason for your use, but you should accept that I am using it in that way."

What is the substantive difference?
  #228  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:12 PM
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Cite?
  #229  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:23 PM
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Why ? We all understand what it's about. Wr all grok what people the comic is lampooning. You're literally the only person white knighting sealions. Why should we give a lonely fuck what your interpretation of the term, or the comic, is ? Again, WHY ?
No, I don't think SlackerInc is the only one having difficulty with the cartoon. I understand what sealioning is, it's not that hard to get it, because you see it often enough - the description posted by GIGO above from the Guardian (post #208) is a good one.

Quote:
Sea lioning is the process of killing with dogged kindness and manufactured ignorance by asking questions, then turning on the victim in an instant. “In this, the perpetrator endlessly nitpicks and relentlessly pursues the topic, but oh so very politely and, when the target finally gets annoyed and retaliates, the sea lion takes on the wronged victim of abuse role,” says Hardaker.
But I didn't get my own understanding of the term from the cartoon, and I think the cartoon is useless at conveying it to someone coming across the term for the first time. Even when you know what sealioning means, it's a struggle to force that interpretation on the cartoon. Some elements are present, but not all; and other irrelevant elements are present.

Last edited by Riemann; 10-19-2019 at 07:27 PM.
  #230  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

k9bfriender "You do not need to accept my definition of treason for your use, but you should accept that I am using it in that way."

What is the substantive difference?
Holy shit! It’s D’Sealion’s longest post ever!

Last edited by Ravenman; 10-19-2019 at 07:33 PM.
  #231  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:44 PM
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But I didn't get my own understanding of the term from the cartoon, and I think the cartoon is useless at conveying it to someone coming across the term for the first time. Even when you know what sealioning means, it's a struggle to force that interpretation on the cartoon. Some elements are present, but not all; and other irrelevant elements are present.
I have to disagree, simply because the cartoon was my first introduction to the term as a result of just binge-reading Wondermark over the past few months. I didn't come across the cartoon as a result of Googling "sealioning"; it was just one of hundreds I'd been reading. But as soon as I saw it, I thought, ha! It's Hurricane Ditka! It may not convey the concept perfectly in all respects, but I think it gets the idea across creatively and humorously. The sea lion metaphor is wonderful simply because it's so totally nonsensical -- it could be a stand-in for anything that conveys the idea of an unfailingly polite but relentless gadfly. So when Bone first used the term, I was surprised because I thought it was pretty obscure, but not mystified as to what it meant.
  #232  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:45 PM
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No, I don't think SlackerInc is the only one having difficulty with the cartoon. I understand what sealioning is, it's not that hard to get it, because you see it often enough - the description posted by GIGO above from the Guardian (post #208) is a good one.



But I didn't get my own understanding of the term from the cartoon, and I think the cartoon is useless at conveying it to someone coming across the term for the first time. Even when you know what sealioning means, it's a struggle to force that interpretation on the cartoon. Some elements are present, but not all; and other irrelevant elements are present.

I think this is a really important point. Other people may be seeing it used in context over and over and get their sense of it from that. I looked at the comic within 30 seconds of first seeing it used, and that has been the basis of my understanding of the term ever since. I think a lot of other people will Google it when first seeing it and encounter the same thing. If people are meaning something else than what is portrayed in that comic strip, they need a different term – unless, as I said just upthread, the term actually predates the cartoon, which I doubt but am willing to be convinced of if provided evidence of same.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:53 PM
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If you can demonstrate that is true from a cite that predates the comic, I will issue a mea culpa.
The self-awarewolf strikes.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:53 PM
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To expand on this:

(1) Sealioning, properly defined, is something like this (from post #208):

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Sea lioning is the process of killing with dogged kindness and manufactured ignorance by asking questions, then turning on the victim in an instant. “In this, the perpetrator endlessly nitpicks and relentlessly pursues the topic, but oh so very politely and, when the target finally gets annoyed and retaliates, the sea lion takes on the wronged victim of abuse role,” says Hardaker.
(2) The rejection of the principles of free speech among the postmodern Left is also a problem, silencing criticism, "deplatforming".

The cartoon is very poor at getting across that it's referring to (1). I can see how SlackerInc jumped to the conclusion that the cartoon is really some kind of weak defense of some aspect of (2). But SlackerInc did so in such an assertive and combative manner, which is kind of odd if he really hasn't encountered the term before; and deserved an equally combative response. But where that response has included people defending the cartoon, I don't think they are right. The cartoon does a terrible job of getting across what sealioning means.
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Old 10-19-2019, 08:05 PM
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When you have to explain what your cartoon was supposed to mean, it's a poor cartoon. As the author pretty much acknowledges there, along with the explanation.

Last edited by Riemann; 10-19-2019 at 08:07 PM.
  #236  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:19 PM
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But I didn't get my own understanding of the term from the cartoon, and I think the cartoon is useless at conveying it to someone coming across the term for the first time. Even when you know what sealioning means, it's a struggle to force that interpretation on the cartoon. Some elements are present, but not all; and other irrelevant elements are present.
The cartoon was part of a general context, written by some specific person to some specific people. I don't believe the comic writer/drawer expected it to become a universal symbol of anything. It's hardly fair to poo-poo it for not being a perfect illustration of human behavior for future generations.
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Old 10-19-2019, 08:21 PM
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If people are meaning something else than what is portrayed in that comic strip, they need a different term – unless, as I said just upthread, the term actually predates the cartoon, which I doubt but am willing to be convinced of if provided evidence of same.
...you've been told over-and-over again that the cartoon inspired the term. What the word means was derived from the cartoon, the cartoon isn't the definition, it doesn't need to predate the cartoon, in fact it makes no sense that the term would predate the cartoon.

But hey, you were perplexed by the cartoon anyway. So it is no surprise that you cannot seem to grasp this very simple concept.
  #238  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:22 PM
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if you don’t want the public to opine don’t publish publicly. And by opining i don’t mean threats, doxing, intimidation, bike locking or anything of that nature.
BUT IT'S THE LATTER WOT IT'S ABOUT, for fuckin' hell's sake. The comic doesn't describe (nor portray) sealions as reasonable individuals participating in a fair marketplace of fucking ideas, dong ma ?
  #239  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:30 PM
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(also, I guess he does have me on ignore. And I'd dropped the wall of sarcasm for his sake, too ! Well, fuck him)

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  #240  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:37 PM
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...you've been told over-and-over again that the cartoon inspired the term. What the word means was derived from the cartoon, the cartoon isn't the definition...
I agree that's what happened. But it's a bit odd to derive a new word for a concept from something that is not a clear and archetypal example of it.

Last edited by Riemann; 10-19-2019 at 08:38 PM.
  #241  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:49 PM
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But it's a bit odd to derive a new word for a concept from something that is not a clear and archetypal example of it.
...its only odd if you are brand new to the internet.

But there is obviously a huge divide here between the people that observed directly what happened during goobergate and those that did not. Sealioning was used directly as a tactic to attack women and marginalised people. It was used to brigade and shut down conversation. It was used as a tool to drive people off Twitter, from Facebook.

Identifying and naming the tactic and developing strategies to deal with and pushback against it was part of the whole reason why the term sealioning became a thing in the first place. When the cartoon came out everyone who had been subjected to it immediately identified the sealion as the typical goobergater. It was really fucking obvious. Five years on and without that immediate context of course the cartoon won't resonate in the same way.
  #242  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:05 PM
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I don’t have anyone on ignore. I just don’t have much to say about this kind of weak attempt at gaslighting.
Well he did put up some cogent arguments against your idiotic complaints, so I can see why you'd want to dismiss them as, uh, gaslighting. (wait, seriously? No I don't think you are serious. You just like to run away from arguments you can't counter.)

God, you suck.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:21 PM
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You just like to run away from arguments you can't counter.

Now that is some deep irony. I’d almost be impressed if I thought it was knowing.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:52 PM
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Now that is some deep irony. I’d almost be impressed if I thought it was knowing.
Then go ahead and adress my arguments. Or at least explain to us how what I said constitutes "gaslighting".

(I'd usually add something to the extent of "I'm just being civil" or "are you simply unwilling to have a reasoned discussion ?" here for the lulz of it, but that would confuse the message and defeat the purpose. I'm honestly trying to reach out and provoke a lightbulb moment here.)

Last edited by Kobal2; 10-19-2019 at 10:53 PM.
  #245  
Old 10-19-2019, 11:33 PM
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BTW, if you think I'm secretly part of some sort of woke feminist cabal trying to spin your head around for the Illuminati or somesuch, I do enjoin you to look me up on Google. I won't doxx myself for obvious reasons, but I don't recall ever really using my real name on the web for anything beyond job searches anyway. Searching for my handle on this forum, or kobal2fr which is what I use when Kobal2 is already taken which does happen sometimes and I don't fucking know how, should take you to my old blog ; possibly a few other forums ; and some Steam gaming advice pages. I think there might also be an artsy nekkid Pulp Fiction-inspired picture of my younger self out there for you to find, so you have that to look forward to.
I also go by Atrabilaire sometimes (that's a high falutin' French word for cranky and/or melancholic, if you have to know) but I don't think I've ever written anything of substance under that name - it's my "this is a garbage account that I don't care if it's hacked" handle.

Last edited by Kobal2; 10-19-2019 at 11:34 PM.
  #246  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:05 AM
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Then go ahead and adress my arguments. Or at least explain to us how what I said constitutes "gaslighting".


There were no arguments to address. The post you faulted me for not responding to read, in its entirety, as follows:


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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Why ? We all understand what it's about. Wr all grok what people the comic is lampooning. You're literally the only person white knighting sealions. Why should we give a lonely fuck what your interpretation of the term, or the comic, is ? Again, WHY ?

To give you an absurd example, imagine we were all discussing fracking and the damage it does to the environment and the measurable impact it has (or has not) on local communities ; and you were convinced the word "fracking" really was about Battlestar Galactica and its fandom. In that context, wouldn't you feel the fool going on and on and on about Cylons and the methods with which the protagonists of the series deal with them, when all of us are talking about oil companies ?
Because that's really where you're at. Open yourself to the possibilty, remote as it may seem, that you might conceivably possibly in some respect be wrong. On the internet.
It's not the end of the world.

This can be boiled down to:

“We all know you’re wrong. Therefore, just give up and admit it. It’s like if you were absurdly wrong about this completely different thing and wouldn’t admit it.”

What is there here to respond to? I have already explained my position in detail. If you genuinely think I have had a psychotic break from reality or whatever, thennn...okay? Bully for you. But to say I remain unconvinced of this would be a massive understatement.
  #247  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:07 AM
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He is home invading, which is what makes the situation complicated, because contrary to what the creator and some in this thread contend, being a sealion is an immutable characteristic and so the panel cannot be completely free of the insinuation that the initial speaker was prejudiced against sealions.

To me, the most relevant parallel to online humans I can construct would be if a Stormfronter said "i just don't like black people" and a black person saw that followed them around and even onto their web site demanding a conversation. And then when that didn't happen they doxxed the Stormfronter, at which point the bigot says to his fellow bigots "see, told you. Black people." Doxxing isn't the right thing to do, but then again, neither is being a bigot and it doesn't prove that all black people are angry doxxers.

I don't know if there was a specific Gamergate comment that sparked this comic, but if there is, then it depends on the specific words used. If they said "wow, those Gamergaters are really something aren't they" then the sealioning is an indefensible reaction to a run of the mill comment; on the other hand if they said "wow, gamers are really a piece of work aren't they?" then it's an indefensible reaction to an indefensible comment, because "gamer" is a mutable but irrelevant characteristic.
Yeah, that's about it, I think. Don't pre-judge all sea-lions, some have really great personalities. And don't dox people. Live and let live.
  #248  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:12 AM
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There were no arguments to address.
Beeeecause you picked the wrong post.

Quote:
I have already explained my position in detail
And been corrected. Repeatedly. By everyone.
  #249  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:19 AM
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There you go again.

But if there was actually some substantive point you wanted me to address, link me to the post, or tell me the post number. Telling me “you’re crazy, and we can all see it but you” is (call me crazy, lol) not something I am interested in responding to. Imagine that.
  #250  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:29 AM
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BTW, note that my use of “gaslighting” is entirely consistent with the usage in the source material, a nearly century-old play. Unlike your use of “sealioning”, despite the much more recent provenance of the sea lion comic.
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