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Old 04-17-2012, 11:59 AM
Enderw24 Enderw24 is offline
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Explain why Wisconsin's recall election is actually recalling anything

To my mind, a recall election should have just one question: do you wish to recall elected official X?

If the majority votes no, that's the end. If the majority votes yes, then the candidate is removed from office and a new election is held following the appropriate process.
Obviously this leaves a bit of a power gap between elections should the answer be "yes" so CA back in 2003 decided to streamline the process with a two question ballot.
Q1: Do you wanna recall Davis?
Q2: Yes? OK then, who do you wanna vote for?

Now, this runs into issues of not having a primary, streamlining the candidates, yadda yadda yadda. At least they asked the question.

As I learned yesterday, and correct me if I'm wrong, WI voters won't even get asked the question! There was a petition. Enough people signed the petition. Now there will be a vote. But it's not a vote on whether you want to recall Scott Walker. Scott Walker just has to run again like he did last year. That's not a recall. That's just an annoyance.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:15 PM
chrisk chrisk is offline
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Well - that's semantics. A vote for Davis is logically and intuitively equivalent to a 'No' vote on your Q1. So are you just complaining that the ballot doesn't ask the question the 'right' way? Or that not being in a separate question deprives Davis of a psychological advantage with voters that you think he's entitled to from having been elected?
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Last edited by chrisk; 04-17-2012 at 12:16 PM. Reason: capitalizing the name
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:37 PM
Enderw24 Enderw24 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk View Post
Well - that's semantics. A vote for Davis is logically and intuitively equivalent to a 'No' vote on your Q1. So are you just complaining that the ballot doesn't ask the question the 'right' way? Or that not being in a separate question deprives Davis of a psychological advantage with voters that you think he's entitled to from having been elected?
Note: it's Walker. Davis was the recalled Gov from CA.

I figured "semantics" would be the first response given. I guess that's it. Right now Walker has to run in a primary. I haven't looked it up but I imagine if he has competition at all it's throwaways at best because who's going to go up against the sitting Gov of their own party? So Walker's going to be in the general. But the thing is that it doesn't matter who he's running against. To me, that's not the point. A recall election isn't a regular election. The question put to voters isn't "would you rather have Scott Walker or Democratic Candidate X?" It's "Do you want Scott Walker to remain Governor?" Full stop. End of question. To me, there's a real difference, even if the results may end up being the same.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:18 PM
President Johnny Gentle President Johnny Gentle is offline
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It's not just "semantics" because California isn't the end all be all of the definition of a recall. A recall election is a referendum on whether to remove an elected official from office before the term is up. That's it. The exact mechanism is immaterial.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:53 PM
zookies zookies is offline
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If a couple of Teamsters asked me to sign a petition, I would sign it rather than get in a big confrontation with a group of high pressure collectivists. But in the privacy of the ballot box, I tend to vote for less government, which is what Scott Walker accomplished.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:12 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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No, that's what Walker claimed he would accomplish, but what he actually did accomplish was Big Government stomping on the neck of labor.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:32 PM
howye howye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zookies View Post
If a couple of Teamsters asked me to sign a petition, I would sign it rather than get in a big confrontation with a group of high pressure collectivists. But in the privacy of the ballot box, I tend to vote for less government, which is what Scott Walker accomplished.
Did the big scary teachers frighten you?

Walker accomplished nothing other than putting the sword to political enemies.

In the privacy of the ballot box, I wonder who hell the stuffed me in the box.
  #8  
Old 04-17-2012, 04:36 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Wait. In California, a recalled governor is forbidden from regaining the office at the next selection opportunity. It's not that way in Wisconsin?

Do they at least have the lieutenant governor take over the office until the next election?
  #9  
Old 04-17-2012, 04:38 PM
gatorslap gatorslap is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk View Post
Well - that's semantics. A vote for Davis is logically and intuitively equivalent to a 'No' vote on your Q1. So are you just complaining that the ballot doesn't ask the question the 'right' way? Or that not being in a separate question deprives Davis of a psychological advantage with voters that you think he's entitled to from having been elected?
Giving someone an up or down vote is pretty different from voting for Candidate A or B. One year prior to losing office in the recall, Gray Davis had won re-election without a majority and with low approval numbers -- basically, he won because the Republicans nominated a poor candidate. Also, while we replaced him with a Republican, we also could've replaced him with another Democrat. WI's recall doesn't give voters the option of voting to recall Walker, and electing another Republican in his place.

A "CA-style" recall would have a somewhat greater chance of succeeding, I think. Gray Davis needed a majority to survive his recall election, whereas Walker will only need a plurality.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:35 AM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Wait. In California, a recalled governor is forbidden from regaining the office at the next selection opportunity. It's not that way in Wisconsin?
No. There is only one question in a Wisconsin recall election. A recall election there essentially forces the incumbent to run for re-election early. That also means that only the person with the most votes can win. There is no possibility of being recalled by 51% of voters and replaced by someone who only got 47%.
  #11  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:01 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enderw24 View Post
... Right now Walker has to run in a primary. ....
This is a choice made by the Republicans, who put up primary candidates in BOTH parties for all six of the recall elections being held. This gives the sitting candidates more time to campaign because having a primary delayed the general election.

Last edited by Boyo Jim; 04-18-2012 at 01:02 AM.
  #12  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:02 AM
Reginald Hobbes Reginald Hobbes is offline
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This is a choice made by the Republicans, who put up primary candidates in BOTH parties for all six of the recall elections being held. This gives the sitting candidates more time to campaign because having a primary delayed the general election.
Not quite. There was going to be a Democratic Party primary for governor regardless. Falk, Barrett, Vinehout, and one other are running. The Republicans put up candidates for lt gov and the four senators to force primaries and align all six elections on the same schedule.
If they hadn't, on May 8 you would've had the Dem primary for governor and the general elections in the other five. It was a tactical move to remove what they felt was a disadvantage.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:22 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Yes, the disadvantage the GOP removed was an earlier election date, which is what my post said.
  #14  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:22 AM
President Johnny Gentle President Johnny Gentle is offline
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Originally Posted by gatorslap View Post
WI's recall doesn't give voters the option of voting to recall Walker, and electing another Republican in his place.
Yes, it does. Walker could potentially lose in the primary. Not likely, since he has a lot of support among Republicans and no actual Republican filed against him. In contrast, Davis would have likely been toast at that stage if California had Wisconsin rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorslap View Post
A "CA-style" recall would have a somewhat greater chance of succeeding, I think. Gray Davis needed a majority to survive his recall election, whereas Walker will only need a plurality.
Technically true, but the third party candidates will not take much of the vote. The winner of the election will have a majority.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:28 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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No, that's what Walker claimed he would accomplish, but what he actually did accomplish was Big Government stomping on the neck of labor.
Not all labor, mind you. Those unions that supported Walker were exempt from the train ride to Auschwitz.
  #16  
Old 04-18-2012, 09:14 AM
What the .... ?!?! What the .... ?!?! is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
No, that's what Walker claimed he would accomplish, but what he actually did accomplish was Big Government stomping on the neck of labor.
Teachers with sore necks.......now I know why they were able to get those doctor's excuses to go to Madison and whine.
  #17  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:26 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Prove it. Double dog dare you.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:55 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Good article on the early history of the recall concept.

For the purposes of the Wisconsin decision, probably the best way to think about it is that the recall is recalling the outcome of the election - i.e. nullifying it - rather than recalling the particular incumbent. That gives the electorate another chance to vote definitively on whether they want to keep that person or not.
  #19  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:04 PM
Reginald Hobbes Reginald Hobbes is offline
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
Not all labor, mind you. Those unions that supported Walker were exempt
Wisconsin Police and Firefighters Didn’t Endorse Walker

Quote:
Among the many problems when a local debate goes national is that outsiders have little knowledge of the background facts and frequently labor under grossly mistaken ideas.

For example, in the Wisconsin showdown, most of us have been laboring under the notion that Republican Governor Scott Walker exempted police and firefighters from his plan to strip collective bargaining rights from public employees because they endorsed him for election whereas the teachers’ unions and others backed his Democratic opponent.

It turns out that this is completely untrue. Walker tells CBS News’ Chris Wragge:

There are 314 fire and police unions in the state. Four of them endorsed me. All the rest endorsed my opponent.


Quote:
from the train ride to Auschwitz.
You're actually equating the loss of collective bargaining to Auschwitz? Seriously?
  #20  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:23 PM
gamerunknown gamerunknown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald Hobbes
You're actually equating the loss of collective bargaining to Auschwitz? Seriously?
Then they came for the trade unionists...
  #21  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:27 PM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Because of the large number of early retirements, increased employee contributions to health insurance and pensions off-setting the Act 10 reductions in state aid to education, school boards in Wisconsin were able to do OK for the 2011-12 school year.

But those one time cost savings won't help much for the 2012/13 school year and into the future. A number of school districts have already given lay-off notices to sizable numbers of teachers. 2012 won't be as bad as 2013. That's the year the hammer really falls.

**********
The unions that supported Walker in 2010 are unlikely to do so again. They can see the handwriting on the wall.

************
Meanwhile Walker cavorts with NY and Texas billionaires rounding up million$ in contributions. He's already run $12 million in Wisconsin TV ads.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opin...#ixzz1sO7qVUoA

Gov. Scott Walker took his recall re-election campaign to the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum on April 11.

Where in Wisconsin is the museum located? In the Oklahoma City part.

As in Oklahoma City, Okla.

Walker was speaking to the Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs, a “think tank” backed by, you guessed it, the Koch brothers.

About half of Walker's funding is from outside the state. His $12 legal defense fund was also raised mainly out of state.

http://publius9.blogspot.com/2012/04...interests.html


http://american-idle.newsvine.com/_n...l-defense-fund



*******

Walker plays the victim card:
"I am a target".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...tml?ref=topbar

Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker told National Rifle Association members Friday he's "a target" and asked for their help in his upcoming recall election.

"I have become a target," Walker told the crowd at the NRA convention in downtown St. Louis.

******
Walker, who ran on a jobs - not a bust the unions platform in 2010, has overseen a very poor performance by Wisconsin in that regard. Granted, any governor is only part of the problem or solution, but Walker's main promise of 250,000 new jobs is a long way off right now.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/142860605.html
  #22  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:30 PM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald Hobbes View Post
Wisconsin Police and Firefighters Didn’t Endorse Walker

You're actually equating the loss of collective bargaining to Auschwitz? Seriously?
Walker had to exempt those who endorsed him since he is a hypocritical little prick. He was just willing to endure exempting similar groups that did not endorse him as a necessary evil in the overall game.

Sure, I'm equating the two. Walker may not have the gas chambers but he is doing what he can to destroy what he deems undesirables.
  #23  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:53 PM
Reginald Hobbes Reginald Hobbes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
Because of the large number of early retirements, increased employee contributions to health insurance and pensions off-setting the Act 10 reductions in state aid to education, school boards in Wisconsin were able to do OK for the 2011-12 school year.

But those one time cost savings won't help much for the 2012/13 school year and into the future. A number of school districts have already given lay-off notices to sizable numbers of teachers. 2012 won't be as bad as 2013. That's the year the hammer really falls.
Why do you consider them "one time cost savings"?
Will the retired teachers not stay retired? Will the contributions not continue next year?

Which districts are laying off a sizable number of teachers? Did any of them find themselves in a hole because they chose to extend contracts before Act 10 took effect?
  #24  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
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If I may ask a factual question.

How many signatures were needed on the petition to trigger a new election? If it was a majority of voters in the state, then I'd argue the petition served as the equivalent of a vote for recall. By signing the petition, a majority of voters were indicating they wanted a change which is the functional equivalent of a majority of voters casting a vote for a change on a recall ballot. Two different mechanisms, same result.

However, if only a relatively small number of signatures were needed then I agree it's a bad procedure. If, for example, five percent of the voters can trigger a new election you're going to have a paralyzed government. You're always going to have some minority of voters who are unhappy with the current government.
  #25  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:52 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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504,000 signatures were required to recall Walker.
931,053 were submitted, 900,938 were ultimately deemed valid. .
There were 2,158,974 votes for governor in 2010. Walker got 1,128,941 of them
  #26  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:55 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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The Root

Quote:
Petitioners were required to gather 25 percent of the total turnout in the most recent gubernatorial election -- 540,208 valid signatures -- to trigger a new election.
Over 1 million signatures were filed, of which 900,938 valid signatures were certified. That's about 40% of the total vote and about 20% of the eligible voting population.

So it was neither a small number nor a majority. That's why an actual vote is required.

And getting 40% of voters to sign a recall petition is an extraordinary number, so saying that petitioners were only intimidated by Teamsters to do so is ludicrous partisan nonsense.
  #27  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:07 PM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
The Root

And getting 40% of voters to sign a recall petition is an extraordinary number, so saying that petitioners were only intimidated by Teamsters to do so is ludicrous partisan nonsense.
Easily the largest percentage of recall petitions signed in American history.

Generally intimidation involved anti-recall people intimidating petitioners:
http://www.wisn.com/Walker-Recall-In...z/-/index.html

http://www.wisn.com/West-Bend-Man-Ch...p/-/index.html

http://www.wkow.com/story/16315822/d...ll-walker-sign

http://www.recallscottwalker.com/201...all-volunteer/

http://scottwalkerwatch.com/2011/12/...nd-is-exposed/

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/...ll-walker-sign

Some GOPers threatened to sign "Mickey Mouse", Adolph Hitler and other false names, but those were either weeded out by the people gathering the petitions or were actually never done.
http://www.journaltimes.com/news/loc...9bb2963f4.html

One GOPer claimed to have signed 36 (or a similar number) times, but that duplication was not noted in the GAB review.

I recall reading that counties which gave Walker nice majorities in 2010 came up with surprisingly large numbers of signed recall petitions.

Whether or not Walker can hang on by outspending a Democrat 4 or 5 to 1 remains to be seen.
  #28  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:30 PM
Reginald Hobbes Reginald Hobbes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
And getting 40% of voters to sign a recall petition is an extraordinary number, so saying that petitioners were only intimidated by Teamsters to do so is ludicrous partisan nonsense.
Who has made that claim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
I recall reading that counties which gave Walker nice majorities in 2010 came up with surprisingly large numbers of signed recall petitions.
Which counties would those be?
I checked Waukesha County (one of the most Republican in the state) and came up with 28,550 signatures.
That's only 15% of the 2010 vote total.
  #29  
Old 04-19-2012, 12:08 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Who has made that claim?
zookies in post #5.
  #30  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:30 AM
Reginald Hobbes Reginald Hobbes is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
zookies in post #5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zookies View Post
If a couple of Teamsters asked me to sign a petition,
Aside from zookies' hypothetical, I don't recall hearing any reports of people coerced or intimidated into signing.
  #31  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:05 AM
What the .... ?!?! What the .... ?!?! is offline
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Walker had to exempt those who endorsed him since he is a hypocritical little prick. He was just willing to endure exempting similar groups that did not endorse him as a necessary evil in the overall game.

Sure, I'm equating the two. Walker may not have the gas chambers but he is doing what he can to destroy what he deems undesirables.
Maybe he really thought that police and fire-fighters deserve a little more than your average public employee union slug sucking at the gov't teet.

I do..... and I'm an HLP too some times....aren't we all? Oh except you clearly ...... don't want anyone to think I'd engage in name calling.
  #32  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:34 AM
gamerunknown gamerunknown is offline
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Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!
public employee union slug sucking at the gov't teet
If you think that employment is not based on mutual exchange of goods, then surely public sector employees are far less damaging than corporate employees. After all, that'd mean that every corporate employee is depriving the corporation of more funds.

It's "teat", by the way.
  #33  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:58 AM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald Hobbes View Post
Who has made that claim?


Which counties would those be?
I checked Waukesha County (one of the most Republican in the state) and came up with 28,550 signatures.
That's only 15% of the 2010 vote total.
28K from the heart of Fitzwalkerstan isn't bad.
  #34  
Old 04-23-2012, 09:20 PM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Ed Show bit on Wisconsin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhfe...2cRVAAAAAAAABA

Huge money advantage for Walker, but will he be indicted before the election?

Ed, the liberal, is probably a bit too hopeful (from his side) here. The prosecutor won't indict unless he really has the goods. Considering that the investigation is getting a bit long in the tooth, I think there is a good chance Walker will escape.
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