Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:23 AM
jjimm jjimm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 28,701
I wanted to add, I experienced that reptilian brain terror response just once, in 2000, on one of those fairground rides that hauls you up and drops you from a great height. It was unlike anything I've ever experienced before. Some deep, unusued part of my mind suddenly awoke and started screaming "YOU ARE DYING! YOU ARE DYING! YOU ARE DYING!" and erased logical thought from my brain. It was total, abject, unspeakable, involuntary terror. It was a devastating feeling.

(I don't know why it kicked in at that time, as I've been on those rides many times before with no ill effect, but that one time it did, and it was the most ghastly thing I've ever felt. It disturbed me for years afterwards, introduced me to real fear for the first time in my life, and I have only just managed to conquer a fear of heights it instilled in me.)

What you felt while auto-waterboarding sounds like very similar similar reaction.
  #52  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:31 AM
The Controvert The Controvert is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.
I know others have asked similar questions, but I think everyone is curious about how this experience changed your perceptions. So, if you were the torturer and had to choose a method to extract information, is it correct to say that prior to the experience you'd choose waterboarding over sledgehammer?
  #53  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:45 AM
Mosier Mosier is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Vegas
Posts: 7,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by glee
Was anyone defending this torture?
Yeah, there was/is. Only one US Republican contender for President is strongly opposed to the practice, where the others are various degrees of wink/nudge about it.
  #54  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:50 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 56,921
Are you still under total spousal supevision?
  #55  
Old 12-22-2007, 09:32 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The land of the mouse
Posts: 43,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosier
Only one US Republican contender for President is strongly opposed to the practice
The one who knows first-hand, not coincidentally.

For me, the issue has never been "Is waterboarding torture?", when the answer always seemed pretty obvious (but I do admire your curiosity and initiative on the point, Scylla). The issues are "Is torture useful to some broader purpose?" and "Is torture something America should stand for?". The answers to those seem obvious as well.
  #56  
Old 12-22-2007, 10:29 AM
marshmallow marshmallow is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,677
This sounds like a fun do-it-at-home project. May I recommend other ideas from the little black book? What about chaining yourself to a wall for two days while your wife rapes you with a glow stick? Well, she has to try to make it hurt. Otherwise this may become a weekend event.
  #57  
Old 12-22-2007, 10:53 AM
Cagey Drifter Cagey Drifter is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: *_*
Posts: 1,189
Scylla (or anyone else who has experienced this or something like it), do you believe that if you underwent this regularly, you could get used to it, and the abject terror would eventually subside, or perhaps settle into something that was a relatively minor negative response?

Last edited by Cagey Drifter; 12-22-2007 at 10:55 AM.
  #58  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:20 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm
It was dangerous and stupid, and if you kill yourself trying to do another harebrained stunt like this again, I'll have your ass banned for life.
All kidding aside, I don't ever want to hear about you, or anyone else, trying something of this nature. People have died accidentally when professionals have been in charge.

I understand your need for a "don't try this at home disclaimer." I read quite carefully before I tried it. The 2 dangers are asphyxiation and cardiac arrest.

I was never in fear of the second as this would be very short, nor was I in fear of the first for the same reason. I was in control, my hands were free, my head was free, and I don't think you could do this to yourself to the point where you were in danger of passing out. It takes 3-4 minutes before you use up all your oxygen. This took like no time at all, but just to be sure my wife was there, so it really was neither dangerous nor stupid.

People die when this is done because it goes on so long that they asphyxiate, or they have a heart attack. I was in no danger of either.
  #59  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:23 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cagey Drifter
Scylla (or anyone else who has experienced this or something like it), do you believe that if you underwent this regularly, you could get used to it, and the abject terror would eventually subside, or perhaps settle into something that was a relatively minor negative response?
Before, I tried it, yes. Now, not a chance. I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with anything psychological. The reaction is a pure hardwired reflex.
  #60  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:24 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Controvert
I know others have asked similar questions, but I think everyone is curious about how this experience changed your perceptions. So, if you were the torturer and had to choose a method to extract information, is it correct to say that prior to the experience you'd choose waterboarding over sledgehammer?
Oh yes. I still would if I had to torture. With a sledgehammer they might tough it out. With the waterboard, no chance at all.
  #61  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:24 AM
Ralpho Ralpho is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9
Scylla,

Thank you so much for doing this experiment and for documenting it so well. You have performed a great service for everyone... I want to say, for everyone on the planet, but that might be construed as over-the-top praise.

One point concerns me deeply: this experiment sounds like it might be quite dangerous. I am so glad you survived to get the message out.

A question for you: At the end of the experiment, did you get stuck in some way, restrained by panic or by the equipment, so that it took you some amount of time to free yourself from the saran wrap and finally draw a clear and dry breath?

Even if that (getting stuck) did not happen to you, it could easily happen to someone else who tried this. Death could be the result. So, I strongly suggest that others not try this alone. In fact, doing it alone may actually turn out to be quite a bit more dangerous than having someone else (a person you trust with your life) do it to you, or at the very least having someone there to observe and help out if you get into trouble.

Even weight lifting is supposed to be done with someone spotting you.
  #62  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:25 AM
casdave casdave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,097
Those 'interrogators' probably have a lot more tricks up their sleeves so that if it is possible to condition oneself out of the involuntary reaction to this they would be able to refine it to the nth degree and bypass your defences.

This form of torture sounds about as bad as rape, where the victim has all control ripped away from them - the mental torture that does the damage.

Imagine being in a position where the interrogator can press that button at any time of their chossing and as often as they like, it woud not be long before you dreaded the sound of the keys in your cell door.

It was pretty horrifying to read, and I'm glad you are safe and well Scylla

As bad as this is though, is there any situation where such treatment is justified ?

After all, defenders will say the fear is temporary, that it achieves the desired results without a protracted and physically damaging process, is this perhaps better or worse than other methods of interrogation ?

I am not defending it at all, seems pretty brutal to me but do you have an alternative to getting relevant information quickly enough?

There is a real debate here, is the US right to do this to save lives, or will the material gained be accurate?

I would probably say anything and admit to anything to get them to stop, I would imagine that anyone who says differant is severely overestimating their own abilities.
  #63  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:29 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Sabbath
You're not asthmatic, are you, Scylla?
On bad attacks, I reach a point where I can breathe all I want, but the amount of air going into my lungs is still a bit questionable. It feels like drowning.
(Which I have come closer than I really want to think about to doing: asthma and certain pool cleaners do not mix)
A normal attack is probably around your 'wet rag' level. A very bad one is worse. I've been quietly contemplative of the comparison between the two conditions, as how waterboarding is described _sounds_ like my normal life.
The component of not being able to breather was not a problem, though certainly not pleasant. I didn't let it go on long enough to feel severe distress from this, or even marginal distress.

What has horrible was the moment when I couldn't expel water out, and instead began to inhale it. Now, if your head is lower than your lungs, you can't actually pull the water up into your lungs, but when it hits a certain it triggers a reflex, and that reflex is total and absolute panic.
  #64  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:31 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralpho
A question for you: At the end of the experiment, did you get stuck in some way, restrained by panic or by the equipment, so that it took you some amount of time to free yourself from the saran wrap and finally draw a clear and dry breath?
No, it was loose and the moment I had the panic reaction I jumped up and had it off in a split second.
  #65  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:47 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Beervania
Posts: 53,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
The component of not being able to breather was not a problem, though certainly not pleasant. I didn't let it go on long enough to feel severe distress from this, or even marginal distress.

What has horrible was the moment when I couldn't expel water out, and instead began to inhale it. Now, if your head is lower than your lungs, you can't actually pull the water up into your lungs, but when it hits a certain it triggers a reflex, and that reflex is total and absolute panic.
You claim that you were in control, then you claim that you inhaled water(not healthy!), panicked and had involuntary motor reflexes. How helpful would your partner had been if you had started flailing about and had inadvertently pushed her away?
I reiterate-there is no safe way to experiment with this technique at home.
  #66  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:58 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm
You claim that you were in control, then you claim that you inhaled water(not healthy!), panicked and had involuntary motor reflexes.
Started to inhale. What's supposed to make waterboarding safe is that your head is lower than your lungs and you can't actually pull the water into your lungs this way. You don't actually inhale the water. It just feels like it and triggers the drowning reflex.

Quote:
How helpful would your partner had been if you had started flailing about and had inadvertently pushed her away?
The moment I panicked I was able to breathe again, cause I was not restrained. I wanted her there only if I passed out. I thought that would be impossible, but I wasn't sure. What I was afraid was passing out while inverted and asphyxiating.


Quote:
I reiterate-there is no safe way to experiment with this technique at home.
I agree. I wouldn't do it again. But I think it was safer than when I get up on a ladder and clean the gutters.
  #67  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:13 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 81,170
Wow, that was a really stupid thing to do.
  #68  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:31 PM
vibrotronica vibrotronica is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Memphis
Posts: 3,624
Scylla, I admire your dedication to fighting ignorance. I hope some of the pro-torture folks on your end of the political spectrum will read this and come to their senses.

Now don't pull any lamebriain stunts like this again! Geez, you coulda killed your fool self! I don't know what we'd do without old Scylla to kick around!

P.S. 100-mile run? You are out of your freakin' mind!
  #69  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:48 PM
Ralpho Ralpho is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9
And to others: don't try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
The moment I panicked I was able to breathe again, cause I was not restrained. I wanted her there only if I passed out. I thought that would be impossible, but I wasn't sure. What I was afraid was passing out while inverted and asphyxiating.
This is similar to what happens when people hang themselves, I think, but of course in that case it's too late to do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
I wouldn't do it again. But I think it was safer than when I get up on a ladder and clean the gutters.
Scylla, especially with this post coming up on Reddit and thereby gaining a world-wide audience, I think you've done a great service. Thank you again.

But to warn others: Scylla did this against a background of a great deal of relevant experience, and with a lot of caution and forethought, and with his trusted spouse watching.

If YOU do it, you will probably -- as my dad used to say -- wake up in the coroner's icebox.

Don't try it. You don't have to, because Scylla tried it for us.
  #70  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:48 PM
Happy Fun Ball Happy Fun Ball is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The down hill slope
Posts: 3,038
Scylla, thanks for taking one for the team like that. You are a braver man than I.

For myself, I was unsure about waterboarding as a torture technique until I saw a video of it being performed on a willing volunteer. From the sheer violence of his struggles, I was clear he was being tortured. You could tell that he would have broken his own arms or back to escape. It was quite telling.
  #71  
Old 12-22-2007, 01:58 PM
vison vison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,036
You are incredibly foolhardy, but you have done a great service. I have seldom read anything at once so profoundly frightening and moving.
  #72  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:02 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cervaise
Feel free to get on the board.

Scylla, thanks.
I meant in no way to imply that it's not a horrific practice.
  #73  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:07 PM
jjimm jjimm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 28,701
Video of a bunch of slackers waterboarding a volunteer. He appears to cope with the saran wrap, but you can clearly see that the towel messes him up badly. He doesn't look at all well at the end of the video.
  #74  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:19 PM
Fight4Rock Fight4Rock is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nonsense
Posts: 1
Damn

I could've used this for my research paper. Would've been fantastic.

Ah well.


.me.
  #75  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:30 PM
Hostile Dialect Hostile Dialect is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD)
Posts: 10,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman
Very rarely do mere words on a message board startle me. I've seen many descriptions of waterboarding, but that one made me sit up straight. Wow.
Seconded. There are no words. Consider me a new fan, Scylla. You should consider applying to the SDSAB.

In the meantime, though, have you considered videotaping the process and sending it to CNN or something? It could make a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
From my understanding, you are in no physiological danger (besides the cardiac arrest thing)
Do you understand how MASSIVE that "besides" is? OTOH, I appreciate your dedication to this, and I think this one line tells us everything we need to know about the whole thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
My merest taste simply suggests that by any definition of torture this is as bad as it gets. You can't do this to another human being and stay human and remain moral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frylock
How is waterboarding (what you describe) simulated drowning and not just plain drowning?
ISTM that the key difference is that water never goes into the lungs.
  #76  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:56 PM
Category5 Category5 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 114
It is hardwired...

read about the Mammalian diving reflex here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex
  #77  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:08 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hostile Dialect
ISTM that the key difference is that water never goes into the lungs.
No, that just makes it dry drowning.
  #78  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:39 PM
GoneTheSun GoneTheSun is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portsmouth, NH
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
It's not simulating drowning, it is drowning. It felt like dying. I can't put it any other way.
The reason it is simulated drowning is the fact that you don't die. Drowning is to DIE by suffocation underwater.

Sure it feels like dying. Drowning = dying. Look it up in the dictionary.

So, substituting the words, you can call waterboarding simulated DYING. Maybe that phrase would get the point across that it is torture more clearly to its proponents.
  #79  
Old 12-22-2007, 04:05 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 56,921
I'm in the "WTF, Scylla?!!" camp. Even given that you examined the question carefully and minimized the risks, it was a pointless excercise. If the odds were a hundred to one that you wouldn't have your 'nads torn off with red-hot pincers, would you risk it for a toaster oven? I'm guessing "no", but I'm not so sure anymore.

Were you going to prove to yourself that it is torture? Well, of course, it's torture, if it weren't torture, it wouldn't work! And if it didn't work, nobody would use it! It would fall to be the bottom of the tormentors fun book down with "the comfy chair". It has a long history of use because it works, and it works because....(wait for it!).... its torture!!

That's reason numero uno. Numero two-o is that we liberal scum told you it was torture, and we are right more often than you are. Next time you get a harebrained idea like this, check with me, or Dio, or Elvis, get the sane perspective. Failing that, ask permission from your wife. If she says "Sure, honey, great idea!", fire the cabana boy.
  #80  
Old 12-22-2007, 04:14 PM
Hostile Dialect Hostile Dialect is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD)
Posts: 10,038
Drowning != dying. The intransitive verb "to drown" refers to having been drowned, or a past-tense form of the transitive:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Online
transitive verb:

1a: to suffocate by submersion especially in water
which strongly implies death, but doesn't necessarily include it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Online
suffocate

intransitive verb

1: to become suffocated: a (1): to die from being unable to breathe (2): to die from lack of oxygen b: to be uncomfortable through lack of fresh air

transitive verb

1 a (1): to stop the respiration of (as by strangling or asphyxiation) (2): to deprive of oxygen b: to make uncomfortable by want of fresh air
Respiration can be stopped without the person dying--for a very short time, I'll grant.

Also note one of the other transitive definitions of "to drown":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Online
b: to submerge especially by a rise in the water level <villages drowned by the flooding river> c: to soak, drench, or cover with a liquid
As for you, GoneTheSun, it's generally a good idea to be familiar with your cite before you cite it.

Last edited by Hostile Dialect; 12-22-2007 at 04:15 PM.
  #81  
Old 12-22-2007, 04:54 PM
ArizonaTeach ArizonaTeach is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,181
Scylla, I'm certainly glad you're ok, and this is absolutely fascinating. I'm curious - if this had been an actual interrogation, do you think you would you have talked? It seems most people take it as gospel that torture doesn't work...would it have worked on you? Especially if the, say, the threat was that if you gave false information they would do it to you again?
  #82  
Old 12-22-2007, 05:09 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaTeach
It seems most people take it as gospel that torture doesn't work...would it have worked on you? Especially if the, say, the threat was that if you gave false information they would do it to you again?
Actually, plenty of people think it works. The SDMB isn't representative of the country. And even here the usual argument is that any information given is likely to be false. Especially if the victim doesn't have any information that the torturer will accept as true. Threatening to torture the victim if the information is false won't work because they know that you'll torture them if the information is true but they don't like it, or if you have no information. Not to mention that someone under such conditions is likely to just blurt out whatever they think will stop you.

And why would they trust a torturer not to torture them if they tell the truth anyway ?
  #83  
Old 12-22-2007, 05:30 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central NJ (near Bree)
Posts: 27,657
Very interesting Op. I am glad to hear you are Ok.

I already believed waterboarding is torture, I tended to trust McCain's judgment on this embarrassment to the USA. The day Cheney argued to retain the use of this technique, lecturing McCain about it, was the day, I put Cheney in the category of Evil approaching Hitler & Stalin. He has no redeemable features and is letting the US suffer for his and his cronies enrichment.

Sorry for the side-rant.

Scylla, this was quite a trial. Why did you decide to do this to yourself? It seems rather extreme.

What is your opinion on our continued use of this torture? I have always believed America was suppose to take the high ground, and that this and several other acts committed since 9-11 have been indefensible in the World's eyes.

Jim
  #84  
Old 12-22-2007, 05:33 PM
jshore jshore is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 6,806
Wow, Scylla, I am not sure what to say...A pretty nutty thing to do but I really do appreciate your firsthand account and am glad you survived to give it to us!

I have to admit that your account helps put to rest some "cognitive dissonance" I sort of had on this. On the one hand, I intellectually believed those who said that it was really horrible and definitely torture...and I was deadset against the U.S. using it. On the other hand, on a gut level I sort of wondered how it could truly be so terrible to have water poured over your head if you weren't really in any danger (among other things, I think I was quite ignorant of how it actually worked). Your account put to rest my naivety about it...and helped me to really understand how horrible it is.
  #85  
Old 12-22-2007, 05:36 PM
jjimm jjimm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 28,701
[aside] Has this thread made some external blog or website or something? The views:posts ratio is roughly 200:1, whereas most threads get about 10:1 or 20:1. [/aside]

Last edited by jjimm; 12-22-2007 at 05:37 PM. Reason: disabled smiley bastards
  #86  
Old 12-22-2007, 06:04 PM
0tehHum4n1ty 0tehHum4n1ty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1
When I was a kid I almost drowned. It is the single most terrifying thing I can remember ever happening to me, and I fully understand scylla's meaning when he says panic...At a certain point your ability to rationalize goes out the window and then you "freak right out" I cannot imagine however, such an adverse reaction in a "controlled" environment, because deep down you know its going to end. The fact that you were aware that you were in control and were still unable to maintain a calm demeanor is a testament to how terrible water boarding is and I applaud your , um, "dedication" to proving people wrong(right?) Unfortunately however I am certain that politicians would dismiss your learned opinion as the "rantings" of a lunatic, using the fact that you were willing to test it on yourself as proof that you are not someone to be taken seriously. In my opinion this whole argument is one of semantics, trying to decide at what point infliction of pain and duress becomes inhumane. It is saddening to me that after thousands of years of existence it still comes down to "tell me or I'll smash you good" which is of course oversimplified but true nonetheless.
  #87  
Old 12-22-2007, 06:18 PM
1point618 1point618 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Haven, CT
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjimm
[aside] Has this thread made some external blog or website or something? The viewsosts ratio is roughly 200:1, whereas most threads get about 10:1 or 20:1. [/aside]
Yeah, someone mentioned earlier that it hit http://reddit.com, a digg-like site where members vote up or down news items. It's rather libertarian/liberal focused, so this is just the type of post that would make it to the front page (I frequent reddit, though find the politics and one-sidedness bothersome often).

Last edited by 1point618; 12-22-2007 at 06:21 PM.
  #88  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:00 PM
The Flying Dutchman The Flying Dutchman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 50N West Georgia Strait
Posts: 8,596
What I'm getting from Scylla is how damn effective waterboarding is. I can see it would be difficult for the CIA to give up such an easy coercive technique.

Last edited by The Flying Dutchman; 12-22-2007 at 07:01 PM. Reason: modification
  #89  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:15 PM
bdaswat bdaswat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
$100,000 dollars says you're full of shit. Seriously, why do you Liberal Scumbags:

1.) Try to manipulate your message in order to "trick" people to keep reading. (commenting about Liberal this Liberal that in the first few paragraphs)

2.) Why do I only subscribe to Conservative Links on Stumble, and You psycho liberal nuts on the internet flood STUMBLE upon with this trash.

3.) IF you actually did this, you wouldn't have thought to take pictures, video, anything?

IMO you're spent the better time of your night coming up with this fairy tale. The news acts as if we do water boarding to 70 year old men with children and have nothing to do with the situation at hand. BULL SHIT. Stop filling the internet with LIES. (btw, how are those 100 mile runs OP?) These people that are water-boarded 90% of the time are terrorist caught in the act of war crimes, NOT random citizens. The whole rant about torture is simply a political stunt, and I could write a 10 page paper about it if I cared to, but I 'll end my post here.
  #90  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:24 PM
Gorsnak Gorsnak is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Saskaboom
Posts: 8,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
$100,000 dollars says you're full of shit. Seriously, why do you Liberal Scumbags:

1.) Try to manipulate your message in order to "trick" people to keep reading. (commenting about Liberal this Liberal that in the first few paragraphs)

2.) Why do I only subscribe to Conservative Links on Stumble, and You psycho liberal nuts on the internet flood STUMBLE upon with this trash.

3.) IF you actually did this, you wouldn't have thought to take pictures, video, anything?

IMO you're spent the better time of your night coming up with this fairy tale. The news acts as if we do water boarding to 70 year old men with children and have nothing to do with the situation at hand. BULL SHIT. Stop filling the internet with LIES. (btw, how are those 100 mile runs OP?) These people that are water-boarded 90% of the time are terrorist caught in the act of war crimes, NOT random citizens. The whole rant about torture is simply a political stunt, and I could write a 10 page paper about it if I cared to, but I 'll end my post here.
Since you're a guest you clearly don't realize that Scylla is an arch-conservative with a history of defending every last move the Bush Administration has ever made. I'm 100% certain he never expected the experience to be particularly horrible, and undertook the experiment in order to tell a story about how waterboarding t'ain't nothin.

In short, your post is pretty much entirely ignorant. I realize that as a guest you aren't able to search for past threads to verify this, but you can take my word for it.

None of this is to say that the OP isn't full of shit. I have no way of knowing, except that given my knowledge of Scylla's past posting history I tend to believe it.
  #91  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:31 PM
bdaswat bdaswat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsnak
Since you're a guest you clearly don't realize that Scylla is an arch-conservative with a history of defending every last move the Bush Administration has ever made. I'm 100% certain he never expected the experience to be particularly horrible, and undertook the experiment in order to tell a story about how waterboarding t'ain't nothin.

In short, your post is pretty much entirely ignorant. I realize that as a guest you aren't able to search for past threads to verify this, but you can take my word for it.

None of this is to say that the OP isn't full of shit. I have no way of knowing, except that given my knowledge of Scylla's past posting history I tend to believe it.

Yea... Attack me instead of attacking the issue at hand.

Typical.

PS if that guy's a conservative, I must be a fascist.
  #92  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:37 PM
The Flying Dutchman The Flying Dutchman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 50N West Georgia Strait
Posts: 8,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
PS if that guy's a conservative, I must be a fascist.
If the glove fits.
  #93  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:38 PM
fifty-six fifty-six is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,282
bdaswat


???
  #94  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:41 PM
bdaswat bdaswat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsnak
Since you're a guest you clearly don't realize that Scylla is an arch-conservative with a history of defending every last move the Bush Administration has ever made.
In short, your post is pretty much entirely ignorant.
ALso, anyone that defends the Bush ad 100% clearly isn't a true conservative. Now who's ignorant.
  #95  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:53 PM
Stratocaster Stratocaster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,440
I'd say the guy who won't admit his first post made a bad assumption.
  #96  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:54 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central NJ (near Bree)
Posts: 27,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
Yea... Attack me instead of attacking the issue at hand.

Typical.

PS if that guy's a conservative, I must be a fascist.
Actually you attacked the Op and called him a "Liberal Scumbag". So, crying foul now is a pretty sad comment on you and your maturity level.

Scylla is sufficiently right wing, that when I saw the thread title, I fully expected a lame defense of the torture technique known as water boarding. Scylla really surprised me with his post. This was very unexpected from the source. This board leans liberal, but it has some very intelligent right wingers, republicans and even libertarians of different stripes.

Your charges against the op are out of context and without knowledge of a long term poster.

Jim

Last edited by What Exit?; 12-22-2007 at 07:55 PM.
  #97  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:58 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 13,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
$100,000 dollars says you're full of shit. Seriously, why do you Liberal Scumbags:

1.) Try to manipulate your message in order to "trick" people to keep reading. (commenting about Liberal this Liberal that in the first few paragraphs)

2.) Why do I only subscribe to Conservative Links on Stumble, and You psycho liberal nuts on the internet flood STUMBLE upon with this trash.

3.) IF you actually did this, you wouldn't have thought to take pictures, video, anything?

IMO you're spent the better time of your night coming up with this fairy tale. The news acts as if we do water boarding to 70 year old men with children and have nothing to do with the situation at hand. BULL SHIT. Stop filling the internet with LIES. (btw, how are those 100 mile runs OP?) These people that are water-boarded 90% of the time are terrorist caught in the act of war crimes, NOT random citizens. The whole rant about torture is simply a political stunt, and I could write a 10 page paper about it if I cared to, but I 'll end my post here.
Identify yourself publicly, put up $10,000 (a mere 10% of your asserted prize), and I will submit to being waterboarded for your aggrandizement. Having been through several days of simulated torture at SERE School, I have an idea of what to expect, so I think that I can handle the aftermath.

How about it, chum?

Last edited by Airman Doors, USAF; 12-22-2007 at 07:58 PM.
  #98  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:07 PM
Gorsnak Gorsnak is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Saskaboom
Posts: 8,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
ALso, anyone that defends the Bush ad 100% clearly isn't a true conservative. Now who's ignorant.
Oh good lord.

Obviously I erred in saying that Scylla always defends Bush. Here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
Doesn't change the fact that he's conservative, and anyone who had read any of his posts beyond "Terror of the Blimps" would know this.
  #99  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:10 PM
Revenant Threshold Revenant Threshold is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 12,060
Revenant's rule of debate #1;

If the person debating elects to Capatalise Particular Words that might not be Capatalised Otherwise, it is a clue that they feel disturbingly strongly about the subject. If this is accompanied by its good friends RANDOM CAPS and mysteriously absent punctuation, then double points!

Anyway, i'm afraid i'm at a loss in understanding bdaswat's point. If he thinks Scylla is lying, then presumably he thinks waterboarding is not effective torture, and thus not helpfulfor those 90% terrorists caught in war crimes. "What nonsense you speak! This is clearly a lie; our methods of torture are weak and pathetic, dammit!"

I'm ashamed to say my first thought was that Scylla might in fact be making it up, in order to prove a point about anecdotal evidence supporting one's views being accepted whilst contrary anecdotal evidence is discarded. But then i'm a suspicious bastard.
  #100  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:12 PM
bdaswat bdaswat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
What is wrong with you people? This just proves your libs that flood the internet with Liberal propaganda are truly cave dwellers truly disconnected with the outside world. Clearly my statement about $100,000 was a figure of speech, not a real offer firstly.

Again "What Exit" why don't you respond to anything I said instead of commenting on my "level of maturity" (see that's another typical liberal tactic, discredit me so you don't have to respond to the truth)

Saying that I need to "know" the OP and have a relationship or whatever to "understand and comment" on the issue is absurd. I don't need to know anything about the guy to comment on the believability of his story.

Water boarding is simply the "bandwagon" story of the year. If you are en enemy of this country and have information that could potentially save the lives of the TRULY innocent (even if it's 1 person), I don't care what they do to the guy.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017