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  #651  
Old 07-03-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
There is a very different political atmosphere in which American citizens of Mexican descent are rounded up and put into camps vs one where foreign citizens are detained in camps at the border.

Americans aren't seeing their lifelong neighbors sent to a concentration camp and being blase about it. This is in almost no one's day to day life.
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
The reality is that people can do horrible, horrible things to "the other" and justify it all the way. There is no way that we are any better now than those in the past who committed atrocities, or condoned them, or simply looked the other way while they were happening.
The thing about creeping fascism is that there's a lot of options for assigning "otherness" to groups. Once you get wide enough acceptance of the concept that certain groups can and should be caged and kept like animals waiting for the state's due process -purely as a deterrent of course, you can pretty much expand the definition of 'other' however you want, I'd guess.

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Originally Posted by CarnalK
I think the more people see, the more pressure for change will happen. I fear that the solution might be "bigger camps" but hopefully you'll do better.
I hope you're right about pressure for change. We seem to be seeing that rise, but it's so precariously dependent on cable & network news coverage I can't get too hopeful. I continue to depend on the Trump regime's general disarray and incompetence at governance, but there are lots of competent proxies for Herr President working on fixing that.
  #652  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
It's probably worth mentioning, in the midst of all this hand-wringing over the coming genocide, that the Border Patrol killed more people under the Obama administration than it has the Trump administration....
2019: 9 deaths
2018: 10 deaths
2017: 9 deaths

2.5 years of the Trump Administration, 28 deaths

2016: 7 deaths
2015: 9 deaths
2014: 12 deaths

3 years of the Obama Administration, 28 deaths

Were you trying to deceive the other posters on this board?
  #653  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
It's probably worth mentioning, in the midst of all this hand-wringing over the coming genocide, that the Border Patrol killed more people under the Obama administration than it has the Trump administration,
...more people "were killed" over an eight year period than a two year period? You do realize that the way you have presented these number is misleading right?

Was this use of force included in those statistics?

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If genocide is the concern, we seem to be heading in the opposite direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by How Did People Die During the Holocaust
From the start of the war in 1939 the Nazis moved many hundreds of thousands of Jews into areas very small, overcrowded areas of cities called ghettoes.

They were not allowed to leave, and if they tried to they would be executed.

Many died of starvation because they didn't have enough food, and others of disease because the living conditions were very poor - there were hardly any toilets and sewers, and no heating during the winter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/16700249

If genocide is your talking point then perhaps picking up a history book will show you that we seem to be heading in the exact same direction. The statistics you cite are a meaningless distraction.

Quote:
You guys know we're only keeping a tiny fraction of the total number of illegals we've apprehended over the last couple of years in the Border Patrol detention facilities, right?

You do realize that the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Inspector General released a report this week that described "At one facility, some single adults were held in standing-room-only conditions for a week, and at another, some single adults were held more than a month in overcrowded cells?"
Why does it matter that it was only a "tiny fraction" of the total number? What fraction of people being held in standing-room only conditions for a week would you deem acceptable? Care to give us a number?

And do you think that their status as "illegal" should make an empirical difference in how we treat them? Do you think we should be treating the "legals" differently than the "illegals?" If they presented themselves at the border to ask for asylum (as many of the people in detention have done) why do you classify those people as illegal?
  #654  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
2019: 9 deaths
2018: 10 deaths
2017: 9 deaths

2.5 years of the Trump Administration, 28 deaths

2016: 7 deaths
2015: 9 deaths
2014: 12 deaths

3 years of the Obama Administration, 28 deaths

Were you trying to deceive the other posters on this board?
Not at all. What I said ("the Border Patrol killed more people under the Obama administration than it has the Trump administration") is factually accurate, and I provided a link so anyone who wanted examine the numbers in detail. They don't provide numbers for the first year of the Obama administration, 2009. And of course 2019 isn't complete yet. Also, we're only a few years into President Trump's first term, but the numbers have more-or-less bounced around in statistically-insignificant ways. The average per year (for the 7 of 8) Obama years was 9.something deaths. The average for the first two years of the Trump administration was 9.5 deaths. This year we're at 9 in June, and it's worth noting there's been a huge surge in the numbers of illegals being apprehended. My point is that illegals dying "by Border Patrol" is not some new horror that has only happened under President Trump. It happened under Obama too, and at about the same rate, and probably others before him.
  #655  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...more people "were killed" over an eight year period than a two year period? You do realize that the way you have presented these number is misleading right? ...
It's really a 7 year period and a 2.5 year period, and I trusted that Dopers were smart enough to realize that the Obama administration is concluded and the Trump administration is not yet. Perhaps that was an error.


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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
... Why does it matter that it was only a "tiny fraction" of the total number? ...
Because the argument was put forth that the Border Patrol is preparing to commit genocide, and the fact that they release / transfer custody of most of their detainees after a short time period cuts against that argument. If they were really getting ready to kill them all, why have they released / transferred so many, and why do they continue to do so?
  #656  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Not at all.
Sounds exactly like you knew you were comparing eight years of something to two and a half years of something in order to mislead people.

Serious question: is this the type of misleading statement that you would use in conversation with your wife?
  #657  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
It's really a 7 year period and a 2.5 year period, and I trusted that Dopers were smart enough to realize that the Obama administration is concluded and the Trump administration is not yet. Perhaps that was an error.?
Lol. Yes, you compare statistics from completely different lengths of time periods but you assumed Dopers would notice such a bullshit comparison. But it was still totally righteous for you to make that comparison, despite the obvious bullshitting aspect.

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-03-2019 at 05:35 PM.
  #658  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
It's really a 7 year period and a 2.5 year period, and I trusted that Dopers were smart enough to realize that the Obama administration is concluded and the Trump administration is not yet. Perhaps that was an error.
...the statistics speak for themselves. Your error was the editorial comment you made which misrepresented what the statistics actually said.

Quote:
Because the argument was put forth that the Border Patrol is preparing to commit genocide, and the fact that they release / transfer custody of most of their detainees after a short time period cuts against that argument.
"Short" is relative. A week is not a short amount of time to be held in a standing-room-only cell. Things got this bad because the Border Patrol were acting in relative secrecy. Keeping this story in the news will help to stop things getting worse.

Quote:
If they were really getting ready to kill them all, why have they released / transferred so many, and why do they continue to do so?
They don't have to be getting ready to "kill them all" in order for them to be setting up the conditions where many people will die. "Just following orders" isn't an excuse.
  #659  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Things got this bad because the Border Patrol were acting in relative secrecy. Keeping this story in the news will help to stop things getting worse.
Sunlight exposes things and keeps things healthy.
  #660  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
It's probably worth mentioning, in the midst of all this hand-wringing over the coming genocide, that the Border Patrol killed more people under the Obama administration than it has the Trump administration, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
My point is that illegals dying "by Border Patrol" is not some new horror that has only happened under President Trump. It happened under Obama too, and at about the same rate, and probably others before him.
This kind of misleading presentation is an example of bad faith argument. First, it misrepresents the evidence, seemingly intentionally. Second, you've switched the nature of the commentary - first saying that more people were killed under the Obama administration, then saying it was about the same rate.

I'm giving you fair notice here. I have no more patience for JAQing off, sealioning, other off topic tangents meant to rile people up, or other bad faith arguments. That goes for all threads in the future, including this one. I will bookmark this post and if it occurs again you will be warned.

[/moderating]
  #661  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Serious question: is this the type of misleading statement that you would use in conversation with your wife?
Let's not introduce other people's spouses unless they bring it up.

[/moderating]
  #662  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You mean stuff like this:



or this:



???
Well, in my first quote, I said that many Republicans were not reasonable, coherent, nor articulate. This is hardly "demonization", and hardly equivalent to saying that asylum seekers are filthy animals, who deserve only to be shot on sight (note - this is not something YOU ever said, or would say - but I have heard it from Republicans who are not reasonable, coherent or articulate)

In the second quote you use, I note that Republicans value winning above all else, prefer simplistic solutions to complex problems, and that there is juvenile language coming out of the White House these days.

Again, hardly equivalent to saying that asylum seekers do not even know how to use a toilet.

But thanks anyway.
  #663  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
You think?

I think it's just as likely that we'll move from stage 6 to stage 7. Because we'll "have to take this regretful action. For our own safety"
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
You honestly think they may soon start murdering everyone in the detention centers?
Do you think that it can't happen here?

They don't have to directly murder people... just make conditions so deplorable that people will die from exposure, neglect, disease when they're weakened by hunger and thirst.... and when, inevitably, some of those people fight back they'll be further abused to "keep order" or even shot during a riot...

It doesn't start with cattle cars of people being taken off somewhere else (although the image of people in standing-room-only conditions for days at a time do conjure up echoes of WWII cattle cars, which were also standing-room-only). It starts with just a few people being "detained" or taken away.

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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Yeah, ok. Not sure step 6 has been completed. You think death lists have been drawn up?
God, I hope not.

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Are immigrants forced to wear special symbols?
No need to in the case of Latin American immigrants - their accents brand them as "other" to the bigots.

Quote:
Has their property been expropriated?
Yes. As a matter of fact, it has. Detainees have been stripped of personal belongings that they carried from their points of origin, many of them being destroyed as "biocontaminated" because they got wet along the way at some point. Because that's so much easier than, say, letting a backpack or clothing dry out. Or giving people access to laundry facilities.

Quote:
Do you forsee this situation ending with an "inevitable tide of refugees", as all immigrants flee to Canada and Mexico?
The immigrants have already passed through Mexico to get to the US, and they can't get to Canada from south of the US without going through the US. It will be a situation where they're between a rock and a hard place.
  #664  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Do you think that it can't happen here?
Geography doesn't matter but political systems do. No, I don't think it will happen at this point and time in America. Of course, it's not impossible.
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Yes. As a matter of fact, it has. Detainees have been stripped of personal belongings that they carried from their points of origin, many of them being destroyed as "biocontaminated" because they got wet along the way at some point. Because that's so much easier than, say, letting a backpack or clothing dry out. Or giving people access to laundry facilities.
You don't think the genocide page was talking about more offensive seizures, like people's homes, money and heirlooms? You think they mean backpacks?

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-03-2019 at 09:12 PM.
  #665  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:23 PM
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If all you have is a backpack, it's pretty significant to lose it.

ETA: If you have a house and lose it and everything else you have, and I have nothing but a backpack and lose it, are you poorer than me because you lost more?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-03-2019 at 09:25 PM.
  #666  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:19 PM
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...lets clear this up.

America is at a crossroads. Its in very big trouble. Its been building to this for a very long time.

Trump didn't start this. Trump is a focal point, the pivot, he's the perfect storm that has people with white supremacist idealogies to take power. Putin talks about how "liberalism is obsolete", that he accepts LGBT peoples but they can be "excessive", what we are witnessing here is not isolated to America but is part of a global movement towards authoritarianism.

What happening on the borders is not the problem. Its a symptom. Its been exacerbated by the power vaccum which allowed people like Stephen Miller to effectively make the decisions on how things have been done, and they have been exacerbated by the fact that Customs and Border Patrol by its very nature will attract people with toxic personas to the job.

There are several ways this can end. Genocide isn't inevitable. At this stage I don't even think that its likely. But we could end up there.

And the fastest way to end up there is to not have this conversation. My biggest fear over the last few months was the hold that Trump & Co held over the narrative. Important breaking stories would fade in a couple of hours, exemplified by this tweet by Washington Post writer David Fahrenthold, about his story on how Donald Trump inflated his wealth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DF
All day long, this story has been just baaarely out-performing another Post story, about a Notre Dame student's mom who objects to women wearing leggings.
https://twitter.com/Fahrenthold/stat...79705289015297

Out of all the damaging things Trump is doing to America at the moment, what is happening on the borders is what needs the attention the most. Because what the camps have descended into happened in only a year while the world was distracted. We went from outrage of the child seperation policy to almost no coverage for months. What will stop the slide to a genocidal regime will be to keep shining a spotlight on the borders, on the camps, and the people that run them. What will stop the slide will be people holding this administration to account, it will be voting the fuckers out of office at the next elections.

As horrible as this all is: I'm less worried about it now than I was when there was "near-radio silence" just a couple of months ago. This story hasn't dropped out of the news cycle. We are still having this conversation. That is something that has to continue. We can stop this. I believe we will stop this. But it will only be stopped if we fight. So we can't stop fighting.

And this entire story proves one more thing to me: that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is the smartest politican the American left have, I will fight anyone who claims otherwise, and you must protect her at all costs. She did all of this with a single, calculated tweet.
  #667  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
And this entire story proves one more thing to me: that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is the smartest politican the American left have, I will fight anyone who claims otherwise, and you must protect her at all costs. She did all of this with a single, calculated tweet.
First: no, she did not do anything single-handedly. There were a dozen lawmakers present and they all contributed images and words that are important for people to see.

Second, please don't do this. Don't put her on a pedestal like this, don't make her your new messiah, don't declare "only her". That's something they do and it's how demagogues happen.

Please don't attempt to build a myth of infallible genius sainthood around anyone; I've had quite enough of that bullshit already.

ETA: The rest of your post is spot on.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-03-2019 at 11:40 PM.
  #668  
Old 07-04-2019, 12:01 AM
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First: no, she did not do anything single-handedly. There were a dozen lawmakers present and they all contributed images and words that are important for people to see.
...the "dozen lawmakers present" didn't change the conversation. That only happened yesterday. The tweet about the concentration camps did.

Quote:
Second, please don't do this. Don't put her on a pedestal like this, don't make her your new messiah, don't declare "only her". That's something they do and it's how demagogues happen.
Please don't do this. Don't claim I'm making her my "new messiah", don't claim I'm going to say "only her."

Quote:
Please don't attempt to build a myth of infallible genius sainthood around anyone; I've had quite enough of that bullshit already.
Calling her the "smartest politician on the American left" is not building a myth of infallible genius sainthood." Its an opinion. Nothing more.
  #669  
Old 07-04-2019, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Please don't do this. Don't claim I'm making her my "new messiah", don't claim I'm going to say "only her."



Calling her the "smartest politician on the American left" is not building a myth of infallible genius sainthood." Its an opinion. Nothing more.
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I will fight anyone who claims otherwise, and you must protect her at all costs.
  #670  
Old 07-04-2019, 01:37 AM
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...do you need clarification on what I said? Do you not understand what hyperbole is, and can you not figure out that a sentence like "I will fight anyone who claims otherwise, and you must protect her at all costs" might be a tad, just a smidgen, just a little bit hyperbolic? Especially considering at the age of 44 I've never had a real-life-fight in my life?

This is how the news cycle is set. Fox news sets the agenda: then the main-stream media follows it. If Fox & Friends doesn't talk about the camps on the borders then nobody else will. AOC's used her social media reach to bring attention to the camps. She got Fox news talking about her, which got the rest of the media talking about what she she said. The public conversation mirrors how the debate happened in this thread: debate over "are they concentration camps or not", that debate allowed the facts to come out, and tied us over to this week which saw the release of the OIG report and the visit to the camps by the congress-people.

You aren't going to "win the war" if you don't understand that the Trump administration is running a propaganda campaign against the American people. The propaganda machine is indistinguishable from North Korean propaganda. You aren't going to win unless you have the ability to combat this. Its exactly why people like AOC are so important to the debate. It isn't about "lionising her" or elevating her to "messiah" status. A single person isn't going to win this. But she's leading the way. And we all need to follow that lead.
  #671  
Old 07-04-2019, 04:29 AM
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You don't think the genocide page was talking about more offensive seizures, like people's homes, money and heirlooms? You think they mean backpacks?
Yes, I do. Because otherwise the word "genocide" would only apply to the relatively wealthy.

The people arriving at our southern border seeking asylum and being locked up for it have already lost most of what they had, what they carry is all they have left. Taking that means taking everything leaving them with literally just the clothes on their back. A backpack might not mean much to you or me, but you and I have the money and the freedom to go out and buy another one if we want to - these folks have neither money nor freedom left.

How is taking every last remaining possession from someone NOT offensive? Does genocide apply only to homeowners and not to people who rent? Is taking someone's last dollar (or peso) less offensive than taking their last 100,000? Does genocide only apply to people who have heirlooms? How much money and stuff does someone need to qualify for that stage of genocide? I read it literally - you take away someone's stuff, even if they don't have a lot of stuff, then it qualifies. And that would include someone who's worldly "wealth" fits in a Wal-mart bag.

The poor and dispossessed have always been easy targets, but they care no less for the few things they have (had) than the wealthy care for their many things.
  #672  
Old 07-04-2019, 07:10 AM
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Geography doesn't matter but political systems do.
If you haven't noticed the increasing erosion of our political systems, where have you been?

Trump's basically turned his entire Administration into his personal toadies, including DoJ (whose independence has been an important norm in our democracy) and our national security apparatus. His daughter and son-in-law are his primary diplomats other than his own self. With the aid of Mitch McConnell who kept Obama from appointing anyone to the Federal judiciary for the last two years of his administration, he's crammed the judiciary full of judges who will reliably decide cases his way.

And this has happened in less than two and a half years.

Yes, political systems matter. Ours isn't what it was just a few years ago. We're not a banana republic quite yet, but we're past the point where merely electing a Dem President and giving ourselves a four-year break from Trumpism will suffice to change our direction.
  #673  
Old 07-04-2019, 08:38 AM
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What a Pediatrician Saw Inside a Border Patrol Warehouse
Dolly Lucio Sevier evaluated dozens of sick children at a facility in South Texas. She found evidence of infection, malnutrition, and psychological trauma.
Quote:
MCALLEN, Texas—Inside the Border Patrol warehouse on Ursula Avenue, Dolly Lucio Sevier saw a baby who’d been fed from the same unwashed bottle for days; children showing signs of malnutrition and dehydration; and several kids who, in her medical opinion, were exhibiting clear evidence of psychological trauma. More than 1,000 migrant children sat in the detention facility here, and Sevier, a local pediatrician, had been examining as many as she could, one at a time. But she wasn’t permitted to enter the area where they were being held, many of them in cages, and find the sickest kids to examine. Instead, in a nearby room, she manually reviewed a 50-page printout of that day’s detainees, and highlighted the names of children with a 2019 birth date—the babies—before moving on to the toddlers.

When it was almost time to leave, Sevier asked to see a 3-year-old girl, and then two other children. But by that point, the friendly and accommodating Border Patrol agent assisting her earlier in the day had been replaced by a dour guard, wearing a surgical mask, who claimed that he couldn’t find the toddler. “We can wait,” Sevier said, as she recalled to me in an interview. Her tone was polite but firm; she knew that she had the right under a federal court settlement to examine whomever she liked.

“She’s having a bath,” Sevier recalled the guard as saying, a luxury one official told her is available only to babies removed from their guardians. In the facility’s standard cages, there is no soap or showering for the kids. Though 72 hours is the longest a minor can be legally confined in such a facility, some had been there almost a month. Sevier waited.

Finally, the guard returned with news. He had found the girls after all. “We located the bodies,” he said, in paramilitary slang. “I’ll bring them right in.”
...

Beyond the children’s physical ailments, Sevier also began to worry about their mental health. She asked to see a 2-year-old from Honduras along with his teenage brother, who she hoped could provide the baby’s medical history. The older boy was excited because officials had kept them separate for more than two weeks. But when the guards brought the toddler over from the “day care” where the littlest detainees are held, he stared with wide eyes, Sevier recalled, and began panting heavily, hoarsely, and persistently for the rest of the encounter.
...

Sevier made her way down the list of names. A 15-month-old baby with a fever had been in detention for three weeks. His uncle had fed him from the same dirty formula bottle for days on end, until a guard replaced it with a new one. Because “all parents want the best health for their infant,” Sevier later wrote in the medical declaration, denying them “the ability to wash their infant’s bottles is unconscionable and could be considered intentional mental and emotional abuse.” Before her visit, the uncle had asked for medical attention because the baby was wheezing. In response, a guard had touched the baby’s head with his hand and concluded, “He’s not hot,” the uncle told Sevier.

“Denied access,” Sevier wrote. “Status: ACUTE.”

At her workstation, Sevier saw some quiet displays of resilience. A 17-year-old girl, with long black hair and a flat affect, entered the room carrying a green plastic bundle—her four-month-old son, wrapped in the kind of bed pad used for incontinent patients in a hospital. The mother explained that the boy had had diarrhea for several days and had soiled his clothes. Guards declined to provide clean baby clothes, she told Sevier, so she managed to obtain two extra diapers and flatten them out into rectangles—one for the baby’s back, one for his chest. She had connected them like a disposable tunic, then wrapped him in the plastic pad. Inside the package, the baby was dirty and sticky, Sevier said. Diaper fluff clung to his hands, his armpits, and the folds of his neck. He wore no socks.

“I carry my baby super close to me to keep his little body warm,” the mother told Jodi Goodwin, one of the attorneys with Sevier, who interviewed her the same day
...

These aren’t even the sickest children in the government’s care—those kids are quarantined at a different station, in Weslaco, Texas. When the team of lawyers visited Ursula without Sevier, “every single kid was sick,” Goodwin told me. When they returned three days later with the doctor, Goodwin asked to see four kids whom another attorney had previously flagged to the guards as especially sick. But they were already gone. The guards told Goodwin that their illnesses were severe enough that they had been admitted to the intensive-care unit at a local hospital.
.....
My bold.

Jesus wept.
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  #674  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:01 AM
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Jesus wept.
Hammer Trump supporters with this. "Do you think that is something Jesus would do?" "If Jesus saw that guard do that, what would Jesus think?" "Would Jesus hold these children like this?"

Don't say it with anger; ask with genuine concern and curiosity.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-04-2019 at 09:02 AM.
  #675  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:14 AM
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Just remember, others have already asserted that pediatricians have a political agenda.

They probably don’t think Jesus was a refugee either, because no.
  #676  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:15 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/03/healt...ren/index.html

Take a look at these drawings and tell me they don't make you sick.

Making america great again.
  #677  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by not what you'd expect View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/03/healt...ren/index.html

Take a look at these drawings and tell me they don't make you sick.

Making america great again.
You're preaching to the choir here brother. These drawings will have no impact on Trump supporters, because we've already reached the stage where Trump supporters do not consider the children of these asylum seekers to be human beings. They will simply think of these drawings as amusing curiosities - sort of like when a magpie makes lines in the dirt with a stick.
  #678  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Hammer Trump supporters with this. "Do you think that is something Jesus would do?" "If Jesus saw that guard do that, what would Jesus think?" "Would Jesus hold these children like this?"

Don't say it with anger; ask with genuine concern and curiosity.
Many of them would think that Republican Jesus would consider these children to be parasites on the soft underbelly of Trump's Great America, and they'd think that Republican Jesus would be pleased that the guards are protecting us from these filthy animals.
  #679  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Many of them would think that Republican Jesus would consider these children to be parasites on the soft underbelly of Trump's Great America, and they'd think that Republican Jesus would be pleased that the guards are protecting us from these filthy animals.
Thus far, you have 51 posts in this thread. The majority of them are mostly ranting. We typically allow group insults, but your consistent offerings have served to degrade the level of discourse - what's the response to this? That Republican Jesus wouldn't consider these children to be parasites? Pretty lame.

And given that many who disagree with you are posters on this board, these types of sweeping generalizations can be difficult to separate as an insult to a group rather than to a poster. When an attack on a group is inseparable from an attack on a poster is where a person can run afoul of the rules.

I am directing you to avoid sweeping generalizations that demonize those that disagree with you.

[/moderating]

Last edited by Bone; 07-04-2019 at 10:06 AM.
  #680  
Old 07-04-2019, 07:04 PM
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I wish I could be surprised that people could sink that low, or that there are people who would defend it.

Now I know how the decent Germans felt, watching their country change around them.
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  #681  
Old 07-04-2019, 07:13 PM
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I wish I could be surprised that people could sink that low, or that there are people who would defend it.

Now I know how the decent Germans felt, watching their country change around them.
You know, once we have a normal human as president again, I hope that, after they root out the rot at the DOJ, they aggressively prosecute every single one of these guards. They’re committing criminal child abuse, and they need to be charged, convicted, and imprisoned. Not just because they’re scum who shouldn’t be walking free, but to serve as a warning to the next set of assholes if we ever have such a piece of shit president again.
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According to the Anti-Defamation League, "In 2018, domestic extremists killed at least 50 people in the US, a sharp increase from the 37 extremist-related murders documented in 2017....every single extremist killing — from Pittsburgh to Parkland — had a link to right-wing extremism."
  #682  
Old 07-04-2019, 07:38 PM
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Cory Booker has a thread on Twitter (sorry I can't search for it right now) describing how he went down to Harlingen (FAR South Texas, if I'm remembering correctly) and helped some people apply for asylum. Ninety percent of the replies to his post said things like he was breaking the law, undermining the president, and that he should be arrested.
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Last edited by ThelmaLou; 07-04-2019 at 07:40 PM.
  #683  
Old 07-04-2019, 08:30 PM
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This is the Cory Booker thing I referred to above. This is the first post. He explains what he did in subsequent posts.
https://twitter.com/CoryBooker/statu...721566723?s=20
Quote:
Cory Booker @CoryBooker
·
Jul 3
Today I crossed the US-Mexico border in El Paso with @fams2gether and @LasAmericasIAC to help five women present themselves for asylum. These are my observations. Please don't look away.
Most of the replies are completely unhinged.
Quote:
JenJen10 @Virgini22198414
·
5h
Replying to
@CoryBooker
and
@LasAmericasIAC
JUST WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? AS TO BRING ILLEGALS
OVER ACROSS THE BORDER.
YOU'RE NOT ABOVE THE LAW.
YOU NEED TO BE PUT BEHIND
BARS ALONG WITH THE REST
OF THE ROGUES IN D.C.!!!!!!!!!!!

#COMELEGALLYORDONTCOMEATALL!!!
Quote:
Lisa Trump Supporter @Lisa_for_Trump
·
1h
Replying to
@CoryBooker
and
@LasAmericasIAC
Actually Mr. Booker you just committed a CRIME AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN!! You are also Illegally using your position in Washington to get your way!! You are a very low down man! Not worthy of running for President!
Anyhoo. You get the idea.
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  #684  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
Thus far, you have 51 posts in this thread. The majority of them are mostly ranting. We typically allow group insults, but your consistent offerings have served to degrade the level of discourse - what's the response to this? That Republican Jesus wouldn't consider these children to be parasites? Pretty lame.

And given that many who disagree with you are posters on this board, these types of sweeping generalizations can be difficult to separate as an insult to a group rather than to a poster. When an attack on a group is inseparable from an attack on a poster is where a person can run afoul of the rules.

I am directing you to avoid sweeping generalizations that demonize those that disagree with you.

[/moderating]
Thank you for your moderation.

I had assumed that there was not a problem with posting too many times in a thread. Thank you for pointing out this transgression.

I had also assumed that I was ranting about some folks out there in the world who have no problem with putting children in cages and denying them basic hygiene and medical attention. I hope that I have not insulted too many posters here with this. I will endeavor not to demonize these people in the future, and give them more respect.
  #685  
Old 07-07-2019, 04:10 AM
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The NYT reports about the facility at Clint, TX:
Quote:
Outbreaks of scabies, shingles and chickenpox were spreading among the hundreds of children who were being held in cramped cells, agents said. The stench of the children’s dirty clothing was so strong it spread to the agents’ own clothing — people in town would scrunch their noses when they left work. The children cried constantly. One girl seemed likely enough to try to kill herself that the agents made her sleep on a cot in front of them, so they could watch her as they were processing new arrivals.
Makes you proud to be an American.
  #686  
Old 07-07-2019, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
This is the Cory Booker thing I referred to above. This is the first post. He explains what he did in subsequent posts.
https://twitter.com/CoryBooker/statu...721566723?s=20
Most of the replies are completely unhinged.
Anyhoo. You get the idea.
Brownshirts in search of a Hitler.
  #687  
Old 07-07-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
The NYT reports about the facility at Clint, TX:
Makes you proud to be an American.
If everyone knew that a vote for Trump was a vote for torturing non-white children, do you think his vote count would go up, or down?
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  #688  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
If everyone knew that a vote for Trump was a vote for torturing non-white children, do you think his vote count would go up, or down?
Probably up. Trump's approval rating is at its highest ever. A significant percentage of Americans are monsters.
  #689  
Old 07-07-2019, 10:19 PM
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"Trump and His Aides Dismiss Reports of Disease and Hunger in Border Facilities"
https://nyti.ms/2xvHkiX
Quote:
...Speaking to reporters, Mr. Trump called the report about the Clint facility a “hoax.”

“The Fake News Media, in particular the Failing@nytimes, is writing phony and exaggerated accounts of the Border Detention Centers,” hewrote on Twitter. “First of all, people should not be entering our Country illegally, only for us to then have to care for them. We should be allowed to focus on United States Citizens first. Border Patrol, and others in Law Enforcement, have been doing a great job.”

The Times said in a statement that it stood by the article. “We are confident in the accuracy of our reporting on the U.S. Border Patrol’s detention centers,” the statement said.
....
Okay. Everybody's making it all up. Nothingberder. Move on. Nothing to see.
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  #690  
Old 07-07-2019, 10:57 PM
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I haven't seen a word about how they are keeping track of the kids much less the parents. Are we going to have a reprise of last year's crisis where nobody had records of who was who, who belonged to who, or who any of the contacts were. Supposedly around 70% to 80% of these kids have relatives or contacts within the United States that they could be immediately released to, or parents they could be reunited with. Given the obvious chaos and mismanagement at the border I have very little faith in the government's record keeping systems.
  #691  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:31 AM
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Probably up. Trump's approval rating is at its highest ever. A significant percentage of Americans are monsters.
I don't think most Americans necessarily take delight in their suffering, though some obviously do. A more likely explanation is that people just don't care - it's apathy, which is in some ways worse. I think apathy and the inability to connect the suffering and negative experiences of others, be they migrants in a detention camp or young black men beat up by cops, has a lot to do with Trump's rise. People have to somehow understand that someone else's suffering ultimately endangers the rest of us all the same. But that's not an easy lesson for people to absorb if they're not exposed to the situation. For most people, it's strictly about how well their doing and how they perceive the mood and sentiments of people around them. When that ultimately sours, then we'll see opinions shift.
  #692  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
They probably don’t think Jesus was a refugee either, because no.
If they actually cared about what their Bible says that they claim is inerrant, even that wouldn't matter, for they would heed these words of Deuteronomy, just for one of many for-instances:
Quote:
[The Lord] defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.
But of course the word of their supposed Lord falls on deaf ears, as only 25% of white evangelicals think we have any responsibility towards refugees.

There are individual white evangelicals who are also Christians, but white evangelicalism as a movement parted company with Christianity somewhere along the way.
  #693  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:05 AM
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Good interview with a lawyer who has been regularly visiting migrant housing facilities:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-migrants.html

"Q: Which part of this crisis is attributable to Bush/Obama policies, and what parts are the result of new Trump-era policy shifts?

A: The Trump administration’s conscious disregard for the rule of law results in migrants being detained in temporary facilities for far longer than 72 hours on a regular basis. The ICE processing facilities are crazy places that are front lines in a huge crisis. As an advocate, I realize that these facilities are not going to run perfectly all the time because the circumstances are challenging to say the least. But there’s no sense that the administration is even trying to uphold the spirit of those important protections, and that is different than previous administrations’ responses to challenging circumstances and very tough calls.

The Trump administration’s instructions to ICE officers as to how to determine whether parents are fit to retain custody of their kids continues to lead to unnecessary separations. I’ve met dozens of kids who were separated from their fathers during processing, with no reason given as to why they deemed the father unfit to retain custody. I’ve met many kids who were separated from their mothers because of some unclear but entirely surprising criminal stain on the mother’s record, potentially something related to a prior unlawful entry in the U.S. (something that also was rarely prosecuted under Bush or Obama)."
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