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  #101  
Old 11-22-2006, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan01
He'll go on baiting me and I'll continue to ignore him, until I see the dishonor ooze out. Then I will shine a light on the slime.
Going for a direct insult to him is to ignore him? In any case it seems to me he has explained his case better than you have in this case.
  #102  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold
I think we're allowed to insult mods in the Pit if they're not acting as mods.
Of course. I've never seen any mod complain about it, either. Most of us can take it as good as we give it. magellan01, as has become increasingly common lately, is being a pissant.
  #103  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:00 PM
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When I worked at the cubical farm I had two observant muslim coworkers who would quietly occupy an unused conference room for their prayers. For some reason this really bothered one of my other coworkers though I could never get her to explain to me why. At least not in terms I could understand.

Marc
  #104  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ralph124c
Well, I realize that you are really not that bright.. I guess you are oblivious to your surroundings..don't blame me for being observant!
May I blame you for being a cowardly numbskull who is willing to give up essential liberty for illusional safety? Home of the brave, indeed.
  #105  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Borgia
You're kidding me. Anyone who anyone else thinks is acting suspicious should be thrown off a plane? We don't have to have any real reason at all? You can't possibly mean this.
You're being obtuse. The final decision is the pilot's. Do you not agree that if someone thinks that someone else's behaviour is suspicious then it's perfectly reasonable for the first someone to report it? Then the powers that be can evaluate the information and make a decision. In this case, the decision was that these people would not fly that flight. End of story.
  #106  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz
Suppose they did have ill intent, and were using reverse psychology? Can you imagine the outcry afterwards?
So basically, terrorists will probably act as western and inconspicously as possible to avoid raising suspicion, but they might be calling our bluff and acting as radically Islamic as possible to carry out an attack due to reverse psychology? Are we not back to square one where every Muslim is a possible suspect, no matter what attitude they project?
  #107  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz
The final decision is the pilot's. Do you not agree that if someone thinks that someone else's behaviour is suspicious then it's perfectly reasonable for the first someone to report it?
While the pilot has to make the decision, if they are making the decision on irrelevant and unlawfully dicriminatory grounds (e.g., banning people because they are Muslim or Middle Eastern, without further cause), then there might be problems.

(What if a pilot had a policy of banning people who were Jews or Israelis, because he believed they were "trouble-makers"? Would there be no problem with that?)
  #108  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:28 PM
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Would you pass a note to the flight crew if you saw a few guys with black nameplates with white lettering?
Well yeah, if 19 of them flew planes into buildings, and blew themselves in cafes, bombed trains in london, then yeah I would pass a note.

Stop with the infantile strawmen. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but so far the great majority of terrorists have been Muslims. A little caution is not a bad thing. Perhaps if someone had been more cautious on 9/11 things may have been different.

It sucks this happened to them, it really does. But as a pilot if I have a choice between pissing off 4, or possibly risking the lives of 100, you piss off 4. Sucks, but thats the world we live in now.

if you have a suggestion on how to change it, im all ears.
  #109  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hogwash
Are we not back to square one where every Muslim is a possible suspect, no matter what attitude they project?
No. Everyone's a suspect. Certain people make themselves more suspicious.
  #110  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz
You're being obtuse. The final decision is the pilot's. Do you not agree that if someone thinks that someone else's behaviour is suspicious then it's perfectly reasonable for the first someone to report it? Then the powers that be can evaluate the information and make a decision. In this case, the decision was that these people would not fly that flight. End of story.
Sorry but "end of story" is the nonsense part, the powers that be should not have done that. The Imams were not on the no-fly list and there is evidence they overestimated the risk.

One can indeed say it is understandable why it happened, but saying "end of story" means we all should approve of the decision. We are not in a dictatorship. And that means also telling the powers that be that they screwed up.
  #111  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by magellan01
Calling for a boycott was not being understanding. IMO, them acknowledging that they understand that people are still frightened by 9/11, and a religion many Americans have little or no exposure to that was hijacked by the murderers, would have gone a long way to increasing acceptance of Muslims.
Why shouldn't they boycott the airline? If I were treated that way, I sure as hell wouldn't want to fly on their planes any more. I'd tell all my friends to avoid them, too. Who wants to pay good money to be treated like that? If US Airways thinks this is a reasonable way to treat Muslims, I don't see why any Muslim should patronize their airline.

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I think that it is safe to say that in our efforts to keep planes and the rest of our society safe, that innocent people will, from time to time, be questioned and inconvenienced. I do not think it reasonable to think that those in charge should have to be right 100% of the time. It was a mistake. A pain in the ass? Yes. Humiliating? Yes, but only if you let it be. Understand what transpired, suck it up and move on. That really is an option.
All that does is make sure that this shit will happen again and again. Obviously, these Imams don't like being treated this way. They're perfectly within their rights to try to make sure they aren't treated this way in the future. How else to do this, but by raising a fuss and trying to organize some sort of economic sanctions against the airline? If you were subject to such treatment, would you suck it up? Or would you bitch and complain and do whatever you felt was necessary (within reason, of course) to make sure it didn't happen to you again?

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I also read, I forget where, that someone claimed that this showed that they didn't have religious freedom in the U.S. Which is, of course, complete bullshit.
It's hyperbole, but not all that inaccurate. What we seem to be losing in this country isn't religious freedom, so much as religious equality, and this incident is pretty much conclusive evidence of that. These guys were pulled off that plane for being visibly Muslim. No other religious group that acted in the same way would have received the same treatment. I very much hope that they take this to court, and take it all the way to the top. This is as clear-cut a case of religious discrimination as I've ever seen.

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I think they have every right to be pissed at the inconvenience. Even at the accusations. But to paint this as if the actions of both the people and the airline were completely out of the blue, batshit unreasonable, how-dare-they...well, I think they're wrong.
So, they have the right to be pissed, but not the right to act on or even express that anger? That doesn't strike me as particularly fair.

Also, there's a difference between behavior that's unexpected, and behavior that's unacceptable. Sad to say, the reaction these men received was hardly unexpected. That neither mitigates nor excuses how they were treated.

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And it ain't gonna win them many friends.
If this is how we treat them, why should they want us as friends?
  #112  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Giles
(What if a pilot had a policy of banning people who were Jews or Israelis, because he believed they were "trouble-makers"? Would there be no problem with that?)
If the airline has a problem with it then they can deal with it.
  #113  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz
If the airline has a problem with it then they can deal with it.
Latest reports mentioned that US Airways Group Inc. is investigating, indeed this is not the end of the story.
  #114  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz
If the airline has a problem with it then they can deal with it.
And if they don't?
  #115  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:41 PM
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God forbid anyone flies Emirates or Qatar Airways. My God, those entire planes are full of Arabs! There's a compass pointing to Mecca! They pray in the aisles!
  #116  
Old 11-22-2006, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bluethree
The article didn't give much detail. I want to know what the imams' actions were. ... I'm having a hard time picturing what they did that would lead anybody to believe they were going to cause trouble on the plane.
They would of been in a line facing Mecca, probably North to Northeast. One may of been in front, facing the same way, leading the prayers. He would of been the one to recite the prayers outloud. They all would of said "Allahuakbar" when changing from standing to kneeling to standing. (You can google "how to pray islam" for videos and such.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Kabong
...This is not really an option if one is a devout muslim. And these guys were not just adherents, they were Imams or religious figures. Of course they're going to pray before the flight, as it would have been fairly difficult to orient oneself toward Mecca while strapped into seat 24B
When traveling only three prayers a day are necessary and it would of been permissible for them to pray in their seats facing forward (in the direction they were traveling.)


Let me tell you about the terrorist cop who caught me wontenly sleeping in my car, with a Koran in plain view, in a shopping center with a Marine Corps recruiting station . I lost the car because of towing fines that accrued while I waited three weeks in jail for charges to be dropped ( I guess Homeland Security never answered the email he sent that evening.)
  #117  
Old 11-22-2006, 06:08 PM
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Too bad it wasn't some Christian Arabs saying a version of this blessing in Arabic:
Quote:
God is great.
God is good.
Thank Him for this food.
What would've been really classic is if the complaining passenger happened to be a member of the same denomination those guys saying that prayer was.

So, now do you understand why I'm "fixated on the complaining passenger?"

True story (aka, anecdote) time: I was accused of asking a Vietnamese shipmate if he were Viet Cong. The person complaining to his officer in charge heard me speaking with the other Sailor in Vietnamese. I asked him if he knew something. The last two words in the sentence were "biet khong." The complainant did not know any Vietnamese at all and assumed the worst. As it turns out, the OIC actually knew some Vietnamese and realized what had happened. I got an apology from the complainant. And we got along famously after that.

It seems to me that's what the Imams in this case want: an apology from the people who made a ridiculous assumption.
  #118  
Old 11-22-2006, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan01
The dishonor just oozes from your being, doesn't it? Well let me just say this, and please don't take it the wrong way, go fuck yourself you dishonorable piece of shit.
I take it by your non-responsive response that you recognize that your arguments are simply one more example of your persistent and unsupportable xenophobia:
Gee, I don't care if they are ANGRY, but they have to UNDERSTAND that our citizens are just too stupid to distinguish between actual angry young men sneaking onto a plane to commit mayhem and a group of middle aged and out-of-shape clerics openly going home from a convention. Since September, 2001, Americans are simply compelled to shut down our brains and believe the worst about anyone different. It's not our faul-l-l-lt! Being forced to have their travel plans interrupted, being dragged of a plane in handcuffs, and being denied a ticket on a common carrier is just the price they have to pay for living in the Land of the Free while daring to have foreign ancestors and continuing to practice their religion.

It all makes sense. (Like villages, do we have to destroy our freedoms to save them, too?)
  #119  
Old 11-22-2006, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giles
(What if a pilot had a policy of banning people who were Jews or Israelis, because he believed they were "trouble-makers"? Would there be no problem with that?)
If the airline has a problem with it then they can deal with it.
And the way to deal with it is to pressure the Feds to take action against the airline for discriminating against them on the basis of religion and (perceived) national origin, both of which are violations of the law.

There is no action reported of the group or any member of the group that can be legitimately perceived as threatening or even disruptive. The airline had no basis on which to deny them passage and absolutely no reason to further deny them tickets for a later flight.
Straight up religious and ethnic discrimination.

(And if the Feds are too chicken to act, then to take both the airline and the Feds to court for violating and then failing to enforce the law.)
  #120  
Old 11-22-2006, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii
What you call a "random passenger" is identified in the linked story as a US Airways manager.

There have been a number of incidents/scares since 9/11, including one several years ago about Young Arab Men Plotting Mayhem In A Cracker Barrel Restaurant (or was it Shoney's?), another inflight incident where some traveling troupe of (?Central Asian?) young males decided to parade en masse up and down the aisle of the aircraft shortly before the plane made its landing approach, the action by a number of foreign exchange students from a slightly provocative origin to ignore their scheduled destination and vanish into the American interior, and so on.
...a cite ffor any of these incidents would help determine whether or not you have a point or whether you are just talking out of your arse. The only incident I could find about mayhem in a Cracker Barrel Restaurant was this one, where I discovered that as recently as in 2004, some restaurants in the United States still practiced segragation!!!

As for the "traveling troupe" allegations, I can only assume that you are refering to the Syrian Wayne Newton and Annie Jacobson's hysterical rantings on "Womans Wall Street . com." To quote an anon. from the Federal Protective Service:
Quote:
"The lady was overreacting," said the source. "A flight attendant was told to tell the passenger to calm down; that there were air marshals on the plane."
Jacobson's rantings sure set the blogs a-fire, just look here for a brief sampling...but as I said on another messageboard at the time, what Jacobson observed was a group of middle-eastern looking men sitting down, standing up to talk to each other, and then sitting down again. One of them went to the toilet with a McDonalds wrapper, and then "shock horror" when he returned to his seat, he didn't have it again! Was this the incident you were thinking of?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp

Or were you talking about the many reports of "arabs rushing at cockpit doors" and taking photographs during flights that have never been verified by anyone? Please enlighten us as to what these "many incidents" since 9/11 have been please...
  #121  
Old 11-22-2006, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear
...a cite ffor any of these incidents would help determine whether or not you have a point or whether you are just talking out of your arse. The only incident I could find about mayhem in a Cracker Barrel Restaurant was this one, where I discovered that as recently as in 2004, some restaurants in the United States still practiced segragation!!!
If you hadn't been in such a rush to post, you might have noticed that I indicated one of the incidents involved either Cracker Barrel or Shoney's. If you check that link you find indications that it fits the pattern I described - false alarms due to provocative and/or stupid behavior and possible overreaction by an observer(s). My personal take on what happened at the Shoney's (the facts were never conclusively established, to my knowledge) is that the Arab medical students involved spotted her paying attention to them and decided to gaslight her with spooky dialogue, causing the resultant mess.

The only incident I mentioned that you comment on is the Annie Jacobsen affair, which was discussed in detail here a few years ago, with various posters deriding her as hysterical and/or racist, and others (like me) not buying into all her claims or her conclusions, but thinking that the Syrians involved had called attention to themselves by acting strangely, that officials had been concerned enough to investigate on their own, and that some aspects of airline security deserved debate.

Excuse me for not being terribly impressed at your own "cites", which include "an anon." and yourself.
Quote:
Or were you talking about the many reports of "arabs rushing at cockpit doors" and taking photographs during flights that have never been verified by anyone? Please enlighten us as to what these "many incidents" since 9/11 have been please...
Since I did not refer to "many" incidents or "reports of arabs rushing at cockpit doors", you are pulling strawmen out of your arse, which sounds painful.
  #122  
Old 11-22-2006, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller
Why shouldn't they boycott the airline? If I were treated that way, I sure as hell wouldn't want to fly on their planes any more. I'd tell all my friends to avoid them, too. Who wants to pay good money to be treated like that? If US Airways thinks this is a reasonable way to treat Muslims, I don't see why any Muslim should patronize their airline.
It all goes back to choosing to understand or not.

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Originally Posted by Miller
All that does is make sure that this shit will happen again and again. Obviously, these Imams don't like being treated this way. They're perfectly within their rights to try to make sure they aren't treated this way in the future. How else to do this, but by raising a fuss and trying to organize some sort of economic sanctions against the airline? If you were subject to such treatment, would you suck it up? Or would you bitch and complain and do whatever you felt was necessary (within reason, of course) to make sure it didn't happen to you again?
I woulkd like to think that I would suck it up. Think about this. What if they issued a statement like this:

We were terribly disappointed and saddened by what happened. We felt humiliated in receiving treatment that was degrading and completely undeserving. I hope you all can imagine how we must have felt. However, we bare our fellow Americans no ill will. I have to understand that many people in the U.S. do not have much exposure to Muslims or their practices. I can see that for many the only exposure they may have had to our religion is through those that have hijacked and contorted it for evil, murderous purposes. 9/11 is still with us. It may be for a long time to come. I would ask you, my countrymen, to realize that we are as different from those terrorists as you are from Timothy McVeigh. We love this country. We think it is the best place on earth. That is why we are here. We hope the day comes soon when those not of our religion can look at us and see Americans. Americans with the same desires hopes and dreams for ourselves and our children as any other American. This embarrassing incident happened. I think it unfortunate for all concerned. But we must move on. The quicker we do, the closer that day will come when a Muslim praying will be as inocuous as a Christian wearing a cross or a Jew the Star of David. America is a great country. But it is at it's best when it is great for everyone. Thank you for your time.

Or something like that. Do you think that might have helped the larger situation more than calling for a boycott?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
It's hyperbole, but not all that inaccurate. What we seem to be losing in this country isn't religious freedom, so much as religious equality, and this incident is pretty much conclusive evidence of that. These guys were pulled off that plane for being visibly Muslim. No other religious group that acted in the same way would have received the same treatment. I very much hope that they take this to court, and take it all the way to the top. This is as clear-cut a case of religious discrimination as I've ever seen.
Fact is, no other religious group has been hijacked by an army of terrorists and killed three thousand Americans on our own soilin the name of the religion. That's the reality. To expect people to ignore that is completely unrealistic. And I'm not sure it would be healthy if they could.

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Originally Posted by Miller
So, they have the right to be pissed, but not the right to act on or even express that anger? That doesn't strike me as particularly fair.
It may not be terribly fair. But if the goal, which I think it is and should be, is to gain more acceptance and not have similar events repeated, one course of action is a better means to that end. They have the right to choose either path. I, and others, have the right to criticize that choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
Also, there's a difference between behavior that's unexpected, and behavior that's unacceptable. Sad to say, the reaction these men received was hardly unexpected. That neither mitigates nor excuses how they were treated.
I think it does mitigate it, quite a bit. The fact is that terrorism is linked to Islam.

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Originally Posted by Miller
If this is how we treat them, why should they want us as friends?
Because they live with us.
  #123  
Old 11-22-2006, 07:54 PM
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Muslim or not, anyone who tries to fly anywhere is subject to intolerable behavior on the part of government and the airlines.

Screw being treated like a criminal without probable cause! We should all adopt the attitude that if we can't get there by car, we just won't go. Let the airlines all go broke! Let the officious TSA be declared redundant because nobody will fly and let the lot of the bastards be fired!
  #124  
Old 11-22-2006, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by magellan01
It all goes back to choosing to understand or not.
No, it goes back to willingness to be treated like shit or not. You wouldn't expect anyone else to be treated like shit and smile, would you? Why should Muslims be any different?

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I would like to think that I would suck it up.
I doubt it. You seem to actually have a spine. I think you'd stick up for yourself, and tell the assholes who were treating you unfairly where to shove it. I'd lose a hell of a lot of respect for you if you didn't.

Quote:
Think about this. What if they issued a statement like this:

We were terribly disappointed and saddened by what happened. We felt humiliated in receiving treatment that was degrading and completely undeserving. I hope you all can imagine how we must have felt. However, we bare our fellow Americans no ill will. I have to understand that many people in the U.S. do not have much exposure to Muslims or their practices. I can see that for many the only exposure they may have had to our religion is through those that have hijacked and contorted it for evil, murderous purposes. 9/11 is still with us. It may be for a long time to come. I would ask you, my countrymen, to realize that we are as different from those terrorists as you are from Timothy McVeigh. We love this country. We think it is the best place on earth. That is why we are here. We hope the day comes soon when those not of our religion can look at us and see Americans. Americans with the same desires hopes and dreams for ourselves and our children as any other American. This embarrassing incident happened. I think it unfortunate for all concerned. But we must move on. The quicker we do, the closer that day will come when a Muslim praying will be as inocuous as a Christian wearing a cross or a Jew the Star of David. America is a great country. But it is at it's best when it is great for everyone. Thank you for your time.

Or something like that. Do you think that might have helped the larger situation more than calling for a boycott?
No, I don't. Because no matter how often moderate Muslims do say things exactly like that, they still get automatically treated like terrorists. A while back, in a similar debate, I gave you a bunch of links to hundreds of similar statements made by Muslims. Your response, as I recall, was that it "Wasn't enough." What you're asking for, here, is for people who have never committed any crime to not only accept being treated like criminals, but to apologize for crimes that they never committed and with which they have absolutely no connection. That you cannot see why this is an intolerable expectation is simply baffling. These men are not terrorists. They shouldn't be treated like terrorists, and when they are, they shouldn't be forced to apologize for their religion.

Quote:
Fact is, no other religious group has been hijacked by an army of terrorists and killed three thousand Americans on our own soilin the name of the religion. That's the reality. To expect people to ignore that is completely unrealistic. And I'm not sure it would be healthy if they could.

t may not be terribly fair. But if the goal, which I think it is and should be, is to gain more acceptance and not have similar events repeated, one course of action is a better means to that end. They have the right to choose either path. I, and others, have the right to criticize that choice.
If the goal is fairness, you aren't going to achieve that by rolling over and taking it in the ass when someone treats you unfairly. Minorities do not get equality by waiting around for the majority to give them to them. They don't get it by accepting that they deserve to be treated like shit. They get it by being angry, and by refusing to take it any more.

Quote:
Because they live with us.
And we seem to be doing our level best, as a nation, to tell them we don't want them to do that anymore. This strikes me as unfortunate, both for us and for them.
  #125  
Old 11-22-2006, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ralph124c
Well, I realize that you are really not that bright.. I guess you are oblivious to your surroundings..don't blame me for being observant!
I would certainly never blame you for being observant. I wouldn't give you credit for having any powers of observation at all.
  #126  
Old 11-22-2006, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by zenith
Muslim or not, anyone who tries to fly anywhere is subject to intolerable behavior on the part of government and the airlines.

Screw being treated like a criminal without probable cause! We should all adopt the attitude that if we can't get there by car, we just won't go. Let the airlines all go broke! Let the officious TSA be declared redundant because nobody will fly and let the lot of the bastards be fired!
Amen, brother.
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Old 11-22-2006, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller
No, it goes back to willingness to be treated like shit or not. You wouldn't expect anyone else to be treated like shit and smile, would you? Why should Muslims be any different?
I look at it differently. The goal is to not be treated like shit. Anger may tempt you to respond in a cetain way. That doesn't mean that railing to the high heavens, righteous as it may be, is the best avenue for not being treated like shit in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
I doubt it. You seem to actually have a spine. I think you'd stick up for yourself, and tell the assholes who were treating you unfairly where to shove it. I'd lose a hell of a lot of respect for you if you didn't.
That's why I said "I'd like to think...". But my whole point is I don't think them taking the offensive is the best way to get the reception they desire. I, personally, would be much more apt to 1)feel bad about how they were treated and 2) feel better about the group in general if there was more along the lines of what I suggested. When they take the offensive I hear "Fuck you, non-Muslim Americans. We're here and your laws protect us. We are free to pray how and when you want. The fact that some other Muslims blew up three hundred people is not our problem, it is yours. You must look at us and see Muslims differetn from them, etc."

In fact, my response to just reading that over is much the same attitude that is possesses: a good, "oh yeah, fuck you..." right back. That doesn't seem to help the larger situation in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
No, I don't. Because no matter how often moderate Muslims do say things exactly like that, they still get automatically treated like terrorists. A while back, in a similar debate, I gave you a bunch of links to hundreds of similar statements made by Muslims. Your response, as I recall, was that it "Wasn't enough." What you're asking for, here, is for people who have never committed any crime to not only accept being treated like criminals, but to apologize for crimes that they never committed and with which they have absolutely no connection. That you cannot see why this is an intolerable expectation is simply baffling. These men are not terrorists. They shouldn't be treated like terrorists, and when they are, they shouldn't be forced to apologize for their religion.
They weren't treated like terrorists, they were treated like people of interest. They were questioned for less than half an hour, for goodness sake. Don't try to make it sound like they were roughed up in some back room and water-boarded. I beleive that not only was this a blown opportunity, but that it is incumbent upon any of us who identify with a group to point to beahvior done in the groups name that you find unacceptable. This was an opportunity for them to have a very public platform with people very inclined to side with them. They had me. They lost me. Boycott an airline for making a mistake and erring on the side of saving lives? Fuck you. (Not "you", Miller.) sorry if you thiink that is unreasonable. I'd bet most people would agree with me. Which is axactly why I think they missed an opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
If the goal is fairness, you aren't going to achieve that by rolling over and taking it in the ass when someone treats you unfairly. Minorities do not get equality by waiting around for the majority to give them to them. They don't get it by accepting that they deserve to be treated like shit. They get it by being angry, and by refusing to take it any more.
Well, Gandhi and Dr. King I think would disagree with much of this. I think it is fine and normal to get angry. The question then becomes what is the best response? One that shows your anger? Not necessarily. There are other options. Just because you are angry doesn't mean that the best response is anger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
And we seem to be doing our level best, as a nation, to tell them we don't want them to do that anymore. This strikes me as unfortunate, both for us and for them.
I disagree. I think they have been quite accepted. Could we (I) be more empathetic to their situation. Probably. I think many of them could be more acknowledging of the situation at large, as well. When I don't see them doing it, I am not so inclined to give a shit. Seems like human nature, to me.
  #128  
Old 11-22-2006, 10:59 PM
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I think they have been quite accepted.
Umm, yeah. As long as they don't pray in public, and don't try to fly US Airways.
  #129  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by magellan01
They weren't treated like terrorists, they were treated like people of interest. They were questioned for less than half an hour, for goodness sake. Don't try to make it sound like they were roughed up in some back room and water-boarded. I beleive that not only was this a blown opportunity, but that it is incumbent upon any of us who identify with a group to point to beahvior done in the groups name that you find unacceptable. This was an opportunity for them to have a very public platform with people very inclined to side with them. They had me. They lost me. Boycott an airline for making a mistake and erring on the side of saving lives? Fuck you. (Not "you", Miller.) sorry if you thiink that is unreasonable. I'd bet most people would agree with me. Which is axactly why I think they missed an opportunity.
I must have missed something, the reports I saw mention that they indeed were interrogated for half and hour, then the authorities let them go, so they then tried to get the flight rescheduled, the airline refused still to accept them, yep even after the authorities said they were OK. Who missed the opportunity to make amends then?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/22/us/22muslim.html
  #130  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Miller
And if they don't?
You are always free to express your displeasure by flying on another airline.
  #131  
Old 11-23-2006, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by zenith
Muslim or not, anyone who tries to fly anywhere is subject to intolerable behavior on the part of government and the airlines.

Screw being treated like a criminal without probable cause! We should all adopt the attitude that if we can't get there by car, we just won't go. Let the airlines all go broke! Let the officious TSA be declared redundant because nobody will fly and let the lot of the bastards be fired!
Indeed, Im travelling to Bangkok in January and even though its (much) cheaper to fly a route that has stops in US territory Im going the other way, through Europe.
It wasnt nice to be treated like a criminal right from the visa request information leaflet, let alone being asked to pay 100 non-reimbursable dollars for the privilege of having an interview to see if Im worthy of a US visa or not.
Now if I had got the visa I was going to be fingerprinted and photographed, filed and had my personal information tagged on a non-private chip on my passport.
Did I mention thats just to have the privilege to change planes within the LAX airport?

Screw that, Im flying East; Ill post pictures of Paris on MPSIMS.


The US policies are already doing a helluva job in boycotting the airlines, I dont understand why some are so upset about a few wrong-done people doing the same.
  #132  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:24 PM
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Well spoken, Ale. How sad that it has come to this.
  #133  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JKellyMap
Well spoken, Ale. How sad that it has come to this.
It is not so much that "the terrorists have won" as that large numbers of people have rolled over and cravenly surrendered their minds to the terrorists and the fears that the terrorists hoped to inflict.
  #134  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ale
The US policies are already doing a helluva job in boycotting the airlines, I dont understand why some are so upset about a few wrong-done people doing the same.
That's pretty much the conclusion I came to a while back, at least for shorter flights. Tampa to Atlanta, fly or drive? Flying time is about an hour... plus another hour or so for check-in procedures, during which I am forced to remove my shoes and give away all remotely pointy objects which I may have forgotten I was carrying (or beverages, if they're still doing that). Plus I may still be in danger of losing my flight when the automatic drug sniffing gadget mistakes the paperbacks in my luggage for crystal meth. And of course there's always the joy of arrival, when I discover that the airline has cut the locks off my bags anyway, as they are apparently free to do.

On the other hand, driving to Atlanta takes about seven hours. However, even with gas prices the way they are, it's still cheaper than flying coach. I can recline my seat comfortably; I have plenty of leg room; I can play Creedence at OSHA-prohibited volume levels; I can drive while wearing big light-up clown shoes if I want to. Plus, I can fill the trunk up with actual crystal meth and not have to worry about it (or at least several cases of beer illegally transported across state lines). And the average Flying J counter worker is way more civil than their airport equivalent, even if they do speak less fluent English. So, yeah, I'm on board with the boycott.
  #135  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz
You're being obtuse. The final decision is the pilot's. Do you not agree that if someone thinks that someone else's behaviour is suspicious then it's perfectly reasonable for the first someone to report it? Then the powers that be can evaluate the information and make a decision. In this case, the decision was that these people would not fly that flight. End of story.
The decision was not based on any reasonable factors, but on irrational hysteria and bigotry. The Imams were doing nothing that merited their expulsion. The decision may be the pilot's but we have the right to criticize it. Also, as others have said, the pilot does not have the right to kick anyone out because of their religion. That's illegal discrimination.
  #136  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dob
Well yeah, if 19 of them flew planes into buildings, and blew themselves in cafes, bombed trains in london, then yeah I would pass a note.

Stop with the infantile strawmen. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but so far the great majority of terrorists have been Muslims. A little caution is not a bad thing. Perhaps if someone had been more cautious on 9/11 things may have been different.

It sucks this happened to them, it really does. But as a pilot if I have a choice between pissing off 4, or possibly risking the lives of 100, you piss off 4. Sucks, but thats the world we live in now.

if you have a suggestion on how to change it, im all ears.
In other words, all Muslims should be banned from all flights within the U.S. Should they also be banned from trains? How about buses?
  #137  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by magellan01
I look at it differently. The goal is to not be treated like shit. Anger may tempt you to respond in a cetain way. That doesn't mean that railing to the high heavens, righteous as it may be, is the best avenue for not being treated like shit in the future.
Can you point to an example from history where your approach atually met with any results or real change? I sure can't. And we'll get to Dr. King and Gandhi in a minute...

Quote:
That's why I said "I'd like to think...". But my whole point is I don't think them taking the offensive is the best way to get the reception they desire. I, personally, would be much more apt to 1)feel bad about how they were treated and 2) feel better about the group in general if there was more along the lines of what I suggested. When they take the offensive I hear "Fuck you, non-Muslim Americans. We're here and your laws protect us. We are free to pray how and when you want. The fact that some other Muslims blew up three hundred people is not our problem, it is yours. You must look at us and see Muslims differetn from them, etc."
Aside from the "fuck you," what's wrong with that message? They are here, and our laws do (or should, but it looks like that hasn't happened in this case) protect them. They are (or should be) free to practice their religion when and where they want. The fact that some other Muslims killed a bunch of people is, in fact, not their problem. At least, no more than it is yours or mine. And as near as I can tell, that "fuck you" isn't to non-Muslim Americans. It's to people who think that because they're Muslims, they deserve to be treated like shit. And it's to the people who excuse or minimize that treatment as somehow deserved or expected.

Quote:
In fact, my response to just reading that over is much the same attitude that is possesses: a good, "oh yeah, fuck you..." right back. That doesn't seem to help the larger situation in my book.
Why? Why does their reaction to this piss you off? You're the one putting yourself in opposition to these guys. They aren't coming after you, their anger isn't directed at you, it's directed at the people who have wronged them. Why are you voluntarily standing with those people?

Quote:
They weren't treated like terrorists, they were treated like people of interest. They were questioned for less than half an hour, for goodness sake.
And banned from any other flights on that airline, even after it had been proven that they were not terrorists and were not a threat. But I guess they should have expected that, too?

Quote:
Don't try to make it sound like they were roughed up in some back room and water-boarded.
I don't think you're really in a position to admonish other posters for hyperbole in this thread.

Quote:
I beleive that not only was this a blown opportunity, but that it is incumbent upon any of us who identify with a group to point to beahvior done in the groups name that you find unacceptable. This was an opportunity for them to have a very public platform with people very inclined to side with them. They had me. They lost me. Boycott an airline for making a mistake and erring on the side of saving lives? Fuck you. (Not "you", Miller.) sorry if you thiink that is unreasonable. I'd bet most people would agree with me. Which is axactly why I think they missed an opportunity.
Can a Muslim ever do anything public except apologize for 9/11? Is there any excess of mistreatment where they can just say, "I didn't do anything to deserve this, and it's wrong for me to be treated like this, and it has to stop?" At what point does every Muslim in the world not have to go around under a giant cloud of guilt and suspicion because of the actions of a few handfuls of religious maniacs?

Quote:
Well, Gandhi and Dr. King I think would disagree with much of this. I think it is fine and normal to get angry. The question then becomes what is the best response? One that shows your anger? Not necessarily. There are other options. Just because you are angry doesn't mean that the best response is anger.
Like hell they would. They wrote the textbook on how to respond to treatment like this. They would not have been violent, but you really think they'd have issued a statement like the one you suggest? You think Dr. King would have written something like, "While we think it's unfortunate that there continues to be so much racial discrimination in America, we understand the white Americans are not comfortable around black Americans. We think this is tragic, and look forward to the day that you will allow us to sit at your lunch counters, to drink from your water fountains, and sit in the front of your buses. But, hey, no hurry, take your time on that. We can wait." Fuck no. King and Gandhi didn't roll over in the face of oppression, they fought back. They marched, they protested, they boycotted, they did every thing they could, short of physical violence, to get the treatment they felt they deserved. What have these Imams done that's so different? They haven't threatened violence. They haven't destroyed property, or blown up buildings, or started shooting people. They voiced their anger, and started a non-violent movement to force the airline to change its policies through economic pressure. This is exactly what non-violent protest is about. King and Gandhi would have approved entirely.

Quote:
I disagree. I think they have been quite accepted. Could we (I) be more empathetic to their situation. Probably. I think many of them could be more acknowledging of the situation at large, as well. When I don't see them doing it, I am not so inclined to give a shit. Seems like human nature, to me.
Really? You only care about social justice so long as the victims are saying things you want to hear? When an asshole is oppressed, or discriminated against, or treated like a second-class citizen, it's okay. Because hey, they're an asshole, right? Who cares about them?
  #138  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz
You are always free to express your displeasure by flying on another airline.
You are also free to call for a boycott of a business that practices illegal discrimination. You are also free to sue said business for said practice also.
  #139  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ale
Now if I had got the visa I was going to be fingerprinted and photographed, filed and had my personal information tagged on a non-private chip on my passport.
Last I heard, the passport itself is also non-private. In other words, it belongs to the issuing government, not the bearer.

That said, it's pretty ridiculous that you need a visa just for transit. Hope your flight doesn't have to transit other countries (such as some of the former soviet republics) that require transit visas. I'm also looking forward to the photos of Paris! It'll be interesting to see how much it's changed (or hasn't changed) in the 26 years since I was last there.
  #140  
Old 11-23-2006, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Quartz
You are always free to express your displeasure by flying on another airline.
What if they've all got the same policy?
  #141  
Old 11-23-2006, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Polycarp
What if these Arabs were chanting:
The Christian "Our Father" a.k.a. "Lord's Prayer" in Arabic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM
Polycarp, this one is even scarier, since it contains the word "Allah":
The "Hail Mary" in Arabic.
  #142  
Old 11-23-2006, 08:14 PM
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It annoys me somewhat the levels that some posters here are reaching for to justify the actions of these silly people who raised concerns about the guys praying.

I can somewhat understand the silly people on the plane. They were obviously filled with fear, A fear that the present administion is so happy to spread. Helped by a complacent, lazy and in some cases duplicitous media. The posters here however are sitting in their office, cubicle, favourite hotspot or home, not face to face with the dangerous mumblings of a strange and merciless foe and yet they still are happy to cow down to these fears.

For shame.

There are real dangers and real bastards that want you, me and our way of life ended. This shite just waters down the real dangers however.
  #143  
Old 11-23-2006, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller
Aside from the "fuck you," what's wrong with that message? They are here, and our laws do (or should, but it looks like that hasn't happened in this case) protect them. They are (or should be) free to practice their religion when and where they want. The fact that some other Muslims killed a bunch of people is, in fact, not their problem. At least, no more than it is yours or mine. And as near as I can tell, that "fuck you" isn't to non-Muslim Americans. It's to people who think that because they're Muslims, they deserve to be treated like shit. And it's to the people who excuse or minimize that treatment as somehow deserved or expected.
I don't think being questioned in todays atmosphere is being treated like shit.
There is a certain normal human reaction when people are scared or feel there is a possible threat. We must all do our best to difuse the situation. It's a fine line. Protect ourselves while trying to remain fair to others. Is it wise on their part to express their anger against the US in Iraq in an airport. Yes Arab men will be viewed suspiciously and while I understand some self righteous indignation, I don't think it will help.
In a minor analogy. When I worked in bands I was on the road a lot after the bars close. I got pulled over by the cops a lot for little or no reason simply because of the time of day. Questioned and asked to get out of the car to do the sobriety tests. I learned that righteous indignation about my rights being violated did no good at all. Patient and respectful cooperation for someone doing their job got the best results every time.

Quote:
Why? Why does their reaction to this piss you off? You're the one putting yourself in opposition to these guys. They aren't coming after you, their anger isn't directed at you, it's directed at the people who have wronged them. Why are you voluntarily standing with those people?
I don't want to see Muslims discriminated against but again, simply being questioned in todays atmosphere is not being wronged. A body cavity search maybe. A day or two in a cell for no reason, sure. One of them said
Quote:
It was the worst moment in my life when I see six imams, six leaders in this community, humiliated."
stop the drama. If thats the worst you've had a dam easy life. Much easier than your fellow Muslims in Iraq who are slaughtering each other.

Quote:
And banned from any other flights on that airline, even after it had been proven that they were not terrorists and were not a threat. But I guess they should have expected that, too?
I don't know why the airline decided not to let them fly on any flights. Maybe a bad call by some official or maybe in part their own bad attitude, or some combonation of both. If the above quote is an indication of their reaction at the time then I don't just blame the airline.

Quote:
Can a Muslim ever do anything public except apologize for 9/11? Is there any excess of mistreatment where they can just say, "I didn't do anything to deserve this, and it's wrong for me to be treated like this, and it has to stop?" At what point does every Muslim in the world not have to go around under a giant cloud of guilt and suspicion because of the actions of a few handfuls of religious maniacs?
At what point does everyone else have to stop walking on eggshells for fear of offending an innocent Muslim. I think there are millions of people who are intelligent enough to not suspect or blame every muslim. What I want to see is more muslims spending as much time criticizing muslim terrorists as they do criticizing America. Do you think there's an underlying sympathy and support in many Muslims for the us vs them battle? That's the enemy.
I would expect anyone to stand up for their rights and I would hope non muslims would stand up against discrimination of muslims. Something as mild as being questioned in an airport might be expected and tolerated. My god the last time they conviscated my shampoo and after shave the heartless bastards.
Quote:
Like hell they would. They wrote the textbook on how to respond to treatment like this. They would not have been violent, but you really think they'd have issued a statement like the one you suggest? You think Dr. King would have written something like, "While we think it's unfortunate that there continues to be so much racial discrimination in America, we understand the white Americans are not comfortable around black Americans. We think this is tragic, and look forward to the day that you will allow us to sit at your lunch counters, to drink from your water fountains, and sit in the front of your buses. But, hey, no hurry, take your time on that. We can wait." Fuck no. King and Gandhi didn't roll over in the face of oppression, they fought back. They marched, they protested, they boycotted, they did every thing they could, short of physical violence, to get the treatment they felt they deserved. What have these Imams done that's so different? They haven't threatened violence. They haven't destroyed property, or blown up buildings, or started shooting people. They voiced their anger, and started a non-violent movement to force the airline to change its policies through economic pressure. This is exactly what non-violent protest is about. King and Gandhi would have approved entirely.
One of the things King and Gandhi had to struggle with was to convince their own supporters not to return hate for hate, anger for anger, and resentment for resentment. I totally support their right to boycott any airline. I also support those Muslims who make real efforts to educate muslims and non muslims about non violence and peaceful coexistance based on respect.
"Peace Train Sounding Louder, ride on the Peace Train."
What disturbs me is a certain anger and resentment I see among muslims that reflects a certain underlying support for acts of violence. After 9/11 we had three arab men come into the store and two of them were making jokes and suspicious comments. I think it was just to screw with the frightened Americans but the FBI actually showed up. They were lucky they weren't hurt. It's not a joke. If you disagree with American policy then fine, but being quietly pleased about violence against the west only fans the flames.

Quote:
Really? You only care about social justice so long as the victims are saying things you want to hear? When an asshole is oppressed, or discriminated against, or treated like a second-class citizen, it's okay. Because hey, they're an asshole, right? Who cares about them?
If someone really cares about working for social justice then they must be smart enough to realize that righteous indignation is not enough. You must be concerned about social justice for those outside your immediate group. I assume thats what you're saying here and I agree. I don't always think that all Muslims are as interested in defending my rights as they are the rights of other muslims.

Regardless, rights are often a matter of balance. In light of the current status of the world how about the rights of people to feel secure. Is submitting to a few questions to much of others to ask?
  #144  
Old 11-23-2006, 08:17 PM
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  #145  
Old 11-23-2006, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by yojimbo
It annoys me somewhat the levels that some posters here are reaching for to justify the actions of these silly people who raised concerns about the guys praying.

I can somewhat understand the silly people on the plane. They were obviously filled with fear, A fear that the present administion is so happy to spread. Helped by a complacent, lazy and in some cases duplicitous media. The posters here however are sitting in their office, cubicle, favourite hotspot or home, not face to face with the dangerous mumblings of a strange and merciless foe and yet they still are happy to cow down to these fears.

For shame.

There are real dangers and real bastards that want you, me and our way of life ended. This shite just waters down the real dangers however.

I think you make a valuble point, but in this case it wasn't just their praying that caused the problem, so maybe those of us sitting at home are just reading the whole thing......ya think?
  #146  
Old 11-23-2006, 08:35 PM
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Regardless, rights are often a matter of balance. In light of the current status of the world how about the rights of people to feel secure. Is submitting to a few questions to much of others to ask?
Speaking of reading the whole thing, you are ignoring the Imams were refused service again after the few questions.
  #147  
Old 11-23-2006, 09:01 PM
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I think you make a valuble point, but in this case it wasn't just their praying that caused the problem, so maybe those of us sitting at home are just reading the whole thing......ya think?
I've read the whole thing. What exactly did these people do then to merit being ejected from a flight and then after questioning to be refused another?

Please explain and tell me in simple easy language, as you seem to be more skilled in understanding the subtleties than me.
  #148  
Old 11-23-2006, 09:18 PM
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Speaking of reading the whole thing, you are ignoring the Imams were refused service again after the few questions.
Actually I mentioned it specifically so I think that means I didn't ignore it doesn't it?
Doesn't it? Before you criticize someone for not reading the whole thing I suggest you read their whole response. ...hehe....I love irony.
  #149  
Old 11-23-2006, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by magellan01
We were terribly disappointed and saddened by what happened. We felt humiliated in receiving treatment that was degrading and completely undeserving. I hope you all can imagine how we must have felt. However, we bare our fellow Americans no ill will. I have to understand that many people in the U.S. do not have much exposure to Muslims or their practices. I can see that for many the only exposure they may have had to our religion is through those that have hijacked and contorted it for evil, murderous purposes. 9/11 is still with us. It may be for a long time to come. I would ask you, my countrymen, to realize that we are as different from those terrorists as you are from Timothy McVeigh. We love this country. We think it is the best place on earth. That is why we are here. We hope the day comes soon when those not of our religion can look at us and see Americans. Americans with the same desires hopes and dreams for ourselves and our children as any other American. This embarrassing incident happened. I think it unfortunate for all concerned. But we must move on. The quicker we do, the closer that day will come when a Muslim praying will be as inocuous as a Christian wearing a cross or a Jew the Star of David. America is a great country. But it is at it's best when it is great for everyone. Thank you for your time.

Or something like that. Do you think that might have helped the larger situation more than calling for a boycott?
This reminds me of a little story an old supervisor told me when I was employed on my first job after university over thirty years ago. It really taught me a lesson.

"There was a dead man being placed into a coffin by a mortician but there was some difficulty in closing the casket because the man's arm was stuck straight out from his chest... "

You probably know the story.

Your suggested response certainly tugged at my heartstrings and I just wished for the sake of everyone that the Imams had responded in kind. As it is they do have a beef and a right to retaliate, but they are not helping themselves or those of us who are upset by the hysteria around us.
  #150  
Old 11-23-2006, 09:23 PM
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Last I heard, the passport itself is also non-private. In other words, it belongs to the issuing government, not the bearer.
Poor wording from my part, by non-private I meant that the information on that RFID chip can be read by any third party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty
That said, it's pretty ridiculous that you need a visa just for transit. Hope your flight doesn't have to transit other countries (such as some of the former soviet republics) that require transit visas. I'm also looking forward to the photos of Paris! It'll be interesting to see how much it's changed (or hasn't changed) in the 26 years since I was last there.
The lack of a transit visa is indeed a royal PITA, I would had to go through the same screening process as if I would be entering the USA; I cant be arsed to detail and document my entire life, work and family relationships the Uncle Sam at this particular moment.

I still cant confirm Ill have the chance to visit Paris, I have three different itineraries to choose from to get from here to Munich and from there to Bangkok; one with a stop in Madrid, the other Rome and the last Paris. I feel like a kid on a candy store.
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