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Old 12-31-2019, 08:08 AM
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Hello Universe? Can we get some better Trump defenders on this board?


I mean, EasyPhil and Jim Peebles are just mental midgets who don't even know how to parse the English language, refuse to acknowledge arguments refuting their ridiculous points, post cites to actual Russian propaganda outlets, and then come back and do it again. Now Ultravires is back, the winner of the Troy McClure trophy for worst arguing lawyer, repeating debunked bullshit about "a few internet memes".

Shodan knows there's no real defense, so he brushes up against a warning for a bullshit drive-by post in ATMB, with some deep-state conspiracy bullshit about the moderators here.

I get that Trump's behavior is pretty indefensible, but there must be someone at the Federalist Society or Heritage that is putting out something remotely plausible that our local knuckleheads could use instead of actual Russian propaganda about Ukraine.

While I'm on the subject, I think posting actual Russian propaganda as a cite should be mod-notable at least, maybe warnable. This site shouldn't be helping "a few internet memes" affect the coming election, and citing from Russian-owned Ukrainian "news" sites is doing exactly that -- sowing confusion and getting Russian propaganda onto searchable sites like this one.

EasyPhil and Jim Peebles, stop fucking doing that, you fucking traitors. Ultravires, try taking your debate and argument classes again, learn to fucking debate the subject at hand, and quit fucking putting words into your opponents mouth.

Universe, c'mon, can't you do any better? Someone must have some plausible defense out there! I'm trying not to fall into a news bubble, but I don't know where to turn.
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Old 12-31-2019, 08:27 AM
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There isn't. Trump is a criminal conman. It is beyond obvious.

Trump abused the power of this office. This is also beyond obvious.

There is no rational defense.
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Old 12-31-2019, 08:54 AM
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better Trump defenders
There is no such person. If they were better, they wouldn't be defending him.
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Old 12-31-2019, 09:01 AM
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There is no such person. If they were better, they wouldn't be defending him.
OK, I guess I meant "smarter Trump defenders". There must be some smart people at the better right-wing think tanks who can put something out more useful than besmirching the Carter Page investigation (?) which is somehow exonerating Trump for reasons (?). Or, ridiculous "logical error" in the impeachment inquiry because now the English Language follows logical rules like XOR. There must be something that conservative legal scholars are hanging their hat on -- why can't our resident Trump supporters parrot those talking points instead? Why do they all have to be idiotic, disingenuous jerks parroting Russian propaganda and sticking their fingers in their ears when called out on their bullshit?
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Old 12-31-2019, 09:14 AM
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The "best" defense I've ever heard for Trump was from a guy on one of my FB debate groups:

"I didn't vote for Trump because I thought he was a good guy. I voted for him because I wanted to watch DC burn to the ground. And so far, he's doing a good job of that".

A disturbing post indeed. But at least it's an honest one, and it is not completely with out its merits.
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Old 12-31-2019, 09:15 AM
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OK, I guess I meant "smarter Trump defenders". There must be some smart people at the better right-wing think tanks who can put something out more useful than besmirching the Carter Page investigation (?) which is somehow exonerating Trump for reasons (?). Or, ridiculous "logical error" in the impeachment inquiry because now the English Language follows logical rules like XOR. There must be something that conservative legal scholars are hanging their hat on -- why can't our resident Trump supporters parrot those talking points instead? Why do they all have to be idiotic, disingenuous jerks parroting Russian propaganda and sticking their fingers in their ears when called out on their bullshit?
Any "smart" answer would just make them look even worse than the stupid ones.

"We like the way he whips up the racists and empowers fascism" would be an accurate and intelligent answer; it also makes it clear that they are simply evil people.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:07 AM
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The "best" defense I've ever heard for Trump was from a guy on one of my FB debate groups:

"I didn't vote for Trump because I thought he was a good guy. I voted for him because I wanted to watch DC burn to the ground. And so far, he's doing a good job of that".

A disturbing post indeed. But at least it's an honest one, and it is not completely with out its merits.
Does he actually think our country would survive that? I grant you, there are many things wrong with our government and damned if I know how to fix it, but what he wants to have happen would, I think, wind up with us as a client state of, oh, Russia. I don't think he'd enjoy that.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:09 AM
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OK, I guess I meant "smarter Trump defenders". There must be some smart people at the better right-wing think tanks who can put something out more useful than besmirching the Carter Page investigation (?) which is somehow exonerating Trump for reasons (?). Or, ridiculous "logical error" in the impeachment inquiry because now the English Language follows logical rules like XOR. There must be something that conservative legal scholars are hanging their hat on -- why can't our resident Trump supporters parrot those talking points instead? Why do they all have to be idiotic, disingenuous jerks parroting Russian propaganda and sticking their fingers in their ears when called out on their bullshit?
I can see only three reasons why anyone would support this dolt, only one of which is theoretically valid.

1) "I don't give a fuck what he does, I'm getting the judges I want confirmed." If that really is the only thing you care about, that makes a tiny amount of sense. But you get the same judges with a mainstream Republican as you do with this ignorant fascist, so the argument is quite thin.

2) "I like him because he hates the same people I do". This is the bulk of his support. They are monsters and support him because he is a monster. Totally reprehensible and evidence of a complete lack of morality.

3) "BURN, BABY, BURN!" These idiots want chaos and love what they're getting. But a bad attitude for any society to adopt.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:13 AM
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weren't you all just celebrating how a few of them got booted? now you want them back?
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:20 AM
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Universe, c'mon, can't you do any better? Someone must have some plausible defense out there! I'm trying not to fall into a news bubble, but I don't know where to turn.
For the right price (and a hot shower after) I could take a stab at it. If you want pro bono work (I don't think you'll like my rates for hazard pay), I could take on some selective tasks. I think policy measures would be easier to devil advocate than wackadoodle behavior, tweets, etc. Got a list of his idiocy for me to choose from?
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Grrr! View Post
The "best" defense I've ever heard for Trump was from a guy on one of my FB debate groups:

"I didn't vote for Trump because I thought he was a good guy. I voted for him because I wanted to watch DC burn to the ground. And so far, he's doing a good job of that".

A disturbing post indeed. But at least it's an honest one, and it is not completely with out its merits.
"Vote Nero, 2020! He won't just burn down DC, he'll play the fiddle while doing it!"

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weren't you all just celebrating how a few of them got booted? now you want them back?
Is it your contention that Hurricane Ditka, for example, was an intelligent, honest debater? I want intelligent Trump defenders.

I'm not really looking for someone to defend Trump in general, but a more intelligent poster who can defend Trump from impeachment, which is what EP and JP are cluelessly, impotently, dishonestly trying to do. Not in this thread -- this thread is a rant, but in a better GD thread. There must be better talking points worth parroting out there. Also, to be clear, this isn't a Trump pit thread, it's pitting his lying, disingenuous, traitorous defenders.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:26 AM
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weren't you all just celebrating how a few of them got booted? now you want them back?
Not speaking or the OP, but I see his point. 63 million people voted for him, SOME of them must like what he's doing, and not because they are all bigots. Do they still support him? If so, why? Those are the people I believe the OP wants.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:27 AM
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For the right price (and a hot shower after) I could take a stab at it. If you want pro bono work (I don't think you'll like my rates for hazard pay), I could take on some selective tasks. I think policy measures would be easier to devil advocate than wackadoodle behavior, tweets, etc. Got a list of his idiocy for me to choose from?
Just saw this -- should preview first.

I'm not looking for policy defenses, I'm looking for smart impeachment defenses.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:29 AM
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"Vote Nero, 2020! He won't just burn down DC, he'll play the fiddle while doing it!"



Is it your contention that Hurricane Ditka, for example, was an intelligent, honest debater? I want intelligent Trump defenders.

I'm not really looking for someone to defend Trump in general, but a more intelligent poster who can defend Trump from impeachment, which is what EP and JP are cluelessly, impotently, dishonestly trying to do. Not in this thread -- this thread is a rant, but in a better GD thread. There must be better talking points worth parroting out there. Also, to be clear, this isn't a Trump pit thread, it's pitting his lying, disingenuous, traitorous defenders.
That's the issue. There isn't anything except parroting the taking points from right-wing media. I remarked in another thread that you will not see anything posted by a Trump defender until the Republicans have released their talking points on it. And that's exactly what you see. There is a clear correlation between talking point to post in the impeachment thread. Ultimately, they have nothing because there's no rationality, there's no thought that goes into it. It is whatever their Republican masters tell them what to think.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:38 AM
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Just saw this -- should preview first.

I'm not looking for policy defenses, I'm looking for smart impeachment defenses.
I'm afraid you're out of luck. This behavior, if done by any of his predecessors, would have resulted in impeachment and conviction. I go by the Nixon scale and call this about a 3 kiloNixon. By contrast, Clinton's transgressions were about a 100 milliNixons. Seriously, how can you make an intelligent counter argument? The transcript the White House released is essentially a confession. The obstruction is not at all hidden.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:39 AM
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It would be nice to get an argument that doesn't come with a link to a Russian propaganda site.
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:51 AM
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Just saw this -- should preview first.

I'm not looking for policy defenses, I'm looking for smart impeachment defenses.
Is there a bright-line difference, there?

Letís say that I believe removing Trump from office will result in worse policies for the country, and that leaving him in the White House will result in better ones. Letís also say that enough Senators, who likewise believe that things would be better with Trump remaining in office, vote to acquit. What would be left to say?
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:51 AM
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There is no such person. If they were better, they wouldn't be defending him.
That's what's so disturbing about them. Six bankruptcies? Four casinos? $25 million judgement against Trump U, which he paid? The shuttering of his fake "charity", the dozens of meetings with Russian operatives, which he, his family, and his staff then repeatedly lied about? To Congress? The idiotic, blatant, stupid lies-----thousands of them? His spite, malice, vicious, pettiness, envy, stupidity, and insecurity? His admiration and affection for Putin and Kim Jong Un?

He promised people that they could indulge their hatred. That's it, that's all. His promises would be ridiculous coming from an ordinary person, but from a con man with a history of cons, it's pitiful that people even entertained them and him.


This is the press conference that should have ended it all.


The sequence of events went like this.

1. Megyn Kelly asked him hard questions about women at a debate.
2. He sneered at her afterward, saying, "She was bleeding out of her eyes, nose, out of her wherever..."
3. General outcry.
4. Instead of attending the next debate, where Kelly was again moderating, he had his own thing to "raise money for veterans."
5. He claimed he'd made millions of dollars and donated it to veterans.
6. Reporters checked with the groups he'd cited after a few days or weeks, and they said they had not received anything.
7. Trump held this furious press conference, where he attacked the press to their faces, in person, in a fury. The veterans' groups had only just received some checks immediately before the conference.
8.That charming looking walking hemorrhoid to Trump's left is a guy bamed Al Baldasaro, who has said he'd put Hillary Clinton before a firing squad if he could.

Trump was as angry as I've ever seen him. It was obvious he expected to make off with the donation money, because that's what he does. He was furious at being questioned, even though he was completely guilty. He was enraged that he didn't get his way.

That was a rare glimpse behind that orange mask.

What do you think Trump would do if suddenly, somehow, he got total control and was able to do whatever he wanted?
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Old 12-31-2019, 10:57 AM
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Not speaking or the OP, but I see his point. 63 million people voted for him, SOME of them must like what he's doing, and not because they are all bigots. Do they still support him? If so, why? Those are the people I believe the OP wants.
Not sure if my brother in law still supports him, but he HATED Obama, and wanted Trump over Hillary.

In any case, he is the CEO of a small oil equipment manufacturing company, and pretty well off. I suspect as far as business goes, he likes what he sees. Deregulation among a big part of it.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
Just saw this -- should preview first.

I'm not looking for policy defenses, I'm looking for smart impeachment defenses.
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Is there a bright-line difference, there?

Let’s say that I believe removing Trump from office will result in worse policies for the country, and that leaving him in the White House will result in better ones. Let’s also say that enough Senators, who likewise believe that things would be better with Trump remaining in office, vote to acquit. What would be left to say?
I guess the continuum is that his actions were:
-Good (policy-wise) and legal

-Bad (policy-wise) but legal

-Legally naughty but not so much that removal is warranted

-Removal is warranted but we're better off not doing it, for reasons

-Remove him

Last edited by Ruken; 12-31-2019 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:09 AM
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This board has chased of Bricker who is exactly the conservative you're looking for. Even Ditka was close because at least he was honest about it point of view and tried to engage, ditka's problem was he did laugh when the other side cried which is an honest reason people vote for trump. Now were stuck with idiot trolls until another conservative happens to wonder by which seems to take a couple of years.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:13 AM
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I can see only three reasons why anyone would support this dolt
He's a conman, and he cons people into believing that he's tough and smart and savvy, and that he cares about them and the things they care about (while his Liberal enemies are actually working against those things). And he does so in a way they find rousing and entertaining.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:16 AM
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Not speaking or the OP, but I see his point. 63 million people voted for him, SOME of them must like what he's doing, and not because they are all bigots. Do they still support him? If so, why? Those are the people I believe the OP wants.
The problem is that defending what Trump is doing requires being aware of what Trump is doing. And I feel that Trump's non-bigot base is made up of people who don't know what's going on.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:17 AM
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This board has chased of Bricker who is exactly the conservative you're looking for. Even Ditka was close because at least he was honest about it point of view and tried to engage, ditka's problem was he did laugh when the other side cried which is an honest reason people vote for trump. Now were stuck with idiot trolls until another conservative happens to wonder by which seems to take a couple of years.
How was he chased off? He just stopped posting. Was there some last straw that I missed?
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:20 AM
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It was obvious he expected to make off with the donation money, because that's what he does.
Absolutely. He is nothing but a con man, and his every action is for his own benefit.

Quote:
This board has chased of Bricker who is exactly the conservative you're looking for. Even Ditka was close because at least he was honest about it point of view and tried to engage, ditka's problem was he did laugh when the other side cried which is an honest reason people vote for trump. Now were stuck with idiot trolls until another conservative happens to wonder by which seems to take a couple of years.
We'll have to agree to disagree about Bricker. Even if you accept that he is intelligent (I don't), I don't think he would necessarily be among those defending Don the Con for shaking down Ukraine.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:24 AM
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Trump has made being a conservative much more difficult. He's co-opted and soiled the conservative brand as he does with anything he nails his gaudy name plate to. So conservatives are left with very few options when their own party has defected to become part of the MAGAcult. There are a few intelligent conservatives left on the board. Sam Stone comes to mind. As do Walkin After Midnight and Sage Rat, too. Bone until more recently. I may not often agree with them but they are thoughtful posters with a lot to contribute. Very much in contrast to fucking liars like Jim Peabrain and slEasyPhil.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:25 AM
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Bricker was a conservative, not a Trump supporter. We'd do well to get more conservatives, too, but there are precious few of them left.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:55 AM
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The hive is apparently schizophrenic.

You all nag the mods until they obsequiously capitulate and now you whine there is no one to disagree with.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:01 PM
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The hive is apparently schizophrenic.

You all nag the mods until they obsequiously capitulate and now you whine there is no one to disagree with.
That isn't how I see it. Conservatives who don't act like trolls don't get banned.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:02 PM
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I guess the continuum is that his actions were:
-Good (policy-wise) and legal

-Bad (policy-wise) but legal

-Legally naughty but not so much that removal is warranted

-Removal is warranted but we're better off not doing it, for reasons

-Remove him
See, my point is that Iíd reorder that continuum: if enough folks in the House and Senate think what heís doing is bad for the country, well, then, vote to impeach and remove him. Didnít somebody once note that an impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history? Iím just figuring that works both ways, is all.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:05 PM
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You all nag the mods until they obsequiously capitulate
You're still wrong. "Whether or not you have the crowd behind you is irrelevant."

Last edited by Skywatcher; 12-31-2019 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:12 PM
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You're still wrong. "Whether or not you have the crowd behind you is irrelevant."
Whatever man. Bullshit is bullshit regardless of font color.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:21 PM
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Whatever man. Bullshit is bullshit regardless of font color.
Christ you're a one trick whiny little cunt.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:25 PM
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If you are pro Trump on this board , I find you are disparaged. Your opinions are wrong, you’ve been hoodwinked, racist of course, etc. not worth it.

See above

Last edited by eenerms; 12-31-2019 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:29 PM
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Christ you're a one trick whiny little cunt.
Bzzzzzzzz
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:50 PM
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If you are pro Trump on this board , I find you are disparaged. Your opinions are wrong, youíve been hoodwinked, racist of course, etc. not worth it.
If someone were to post a thoughtful, well-informed, good-faith defense of Trump here on this board, would it get a fair hearing? I don't know; maybe not, which is a shame.

But the pro-Trump posts I do remember seeing have not been thoughtful, well-informed, good-faith posts.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:52 PM
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The majority of Trump supporters are too stupid and/or ill-informed to have anything intelligible to contribute. Top GOP thinkers like Sean Hannity or Carlson Tucker can only be compared to Charles Manson or some other raving lunatic.

But there are hundreds of GOP Congresscritters, who presumably have intelligence and information! What do they say? AFAICT these days when questioned by any reporter other than a Fox slime-bag, their usual response is just to threaten to punch the reporter. If anyone has a link to any present-day GOP Congresscritter saying anything intelligent and honest, please post it.

Bricker was an intelligent right-winger, if that term isn't an oxymoron. IIRC his main objection to Trump was the risk of nuclear war, but with Kim and Trump all palsy now, Bricker is presumably delighted with Trumpism. Certainly he's overjoyed at all the immoral shenanigans used by the GOP to suppress D voters. Right now he'd be pontificating about how 34 Senators will render Trump blameless for his crimes.

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The hive is apparently schizophrenic.

You all nag the mods until they obsequiously capitulate and now you whine there is no one to disagree with.
Then there's our little racist Doper too stupid to even know he's racist. Who do you pretend that you voted for in 2016, cephalopod? Nitwit Johnson — did I guess right?

Last edited by septimus; 12-31-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:04 PM
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If you are pro Trump on this board , I find you are disparaged. Your opinions are wrong, youíve been hoodwinked, racist of course, etc. not worth it.

See above
I invite you to give a thoughtful, well constructed argument about how Trump did not do anything wrong, and in fact, his call to Ukraine was "perfect".

Open this in "Elections", and if anyone calls you racist etc. I will be the first to report them.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:12 PM
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See, my point is that Iíd reorder that continuum: if enough folks in the House and Senate think what heís doing is bad for the country, well, then, vote to impeach and remove him. Didnít somebody once note that an impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history? Iím just figuring that works both ways, is all.
I don't think it's impossible for someone to think what he is doing is bad for the country, but that removing him from office would be worse for the country (or worse for the morally bankrupt senator voting on it, but he or she probably wouldn't argue that.)

Not that I'm convinced I could craft a compelling argument along those lines.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:22 PM
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You guys are all just debating with the wrong posters. You should give LAZombie a shot. He's really got it together.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
I don't think it's impossible for someone to think what he is doing is bad for the country, but that removing him from office would be worse for the country (or worse for the morally bankrupt senator voting on it, but he or she probably wouldn't argue that.)
Fair enough, I guess; Trumpís presidency often prompts remarks about the lesser of two evils, and Iím glad to follow suit here: ask which would be worse for the country (or whatís in the countryís best interests, or however you want to phrase it), and vote to keep him in office or remove him compared to the alternative. Thatís what I plan on doing in 2020; why shouldnít Senators do likewise?
  #42  
Old 12-31-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
This board has chased of Bricker who is exactly the conservative you're looking for.
I'm no fan of Bricker, but he's about the last person here who could be "chased off." Maybe he got bored with the place. Nobody's obligated to continue posting here indefinitely.

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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree about Bricker. Even if you accept that he is intelligent (I don't), I don't think he would necessarily be among those defending Don the Con for shaking down Ukraine.
I've never understood why Bricker is considered some kind of model conservative around here. Whenever I noticed him, he was engaging in absurd hyperbole, whataboutism, disingenuous arguments, and silly gotcha games.

If he was around now, he'd probably argue that what Trump did was technically legal. We'd also hear "What provision of the Constitution do you imagine that Trump has violated?" or some variation thereof. He'd studiously avoid expressing any opinion of Trump's behavior, and reduce the whole issue to a legalistic question with only one correct answerówhich just happens to favor Trump.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:44 PM
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It’s also sort of pointless to engage in a debate that has the goal of convincing the intellectually dishonest folks that refuse to believe simple sentences mean what they mean. Working through ideas that take paragraphs is an exercise in futility.
  #44  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Greathouse View Post
You guys are all just debating with the wrong posters. You should give LAZombie a shot. He's really got it together.
Thanks!!! It's great to be appreciated and recognized!

Happy New Year!
  #45  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
I mean ... to turn.
Two things.

1)
Universe (in re your request): "I'm giving 'er all she's got cap'n."

2)
ďNever believe that [Trumpco customers] are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The [Trumpco customers] have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.Ē
~Sartre

3)
Hi, gemmed cat of lists.


***********

Not just this board, but also the other boards I lurk on.
The articulate GOP supporters have gone silent in re defense of Trumpco.
It seems the cat bag is full of everyone else's tongues except the one like what you see now.
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  #46  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:18 PM
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::shrugs:: Iím offering up what strikes me as a sound argument in good faith, sure as I have no interest in falling silent. Do you require something more from me?
  #47  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
The hive is apparently schizophrenic.

You all nag the mods until they obsequiously capitulate and now you whine there is no one to disagree with.
Why don't you add some fucking value for a change here? How about you open a thread that is an honest and clear-eyed defense of the behavior that Trump has been impeached for? Or, defend his pardoning a war criminal and trying to force him back onto the Seals, if you'd prefer to do that. Or, any other highly criticized behavior. All I ask is that you do it in good faith, and respond in good faith to other debaters counterpoints.

Otherwise, just fuck off. I'm tired of your meta-posts about tone, your white-knighting, and your other useless bullshit. Contribute something of value -- you might enjoy it!
  #48  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:24 PM
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Bzzzzzzzz
Silence! Imbecile.
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  #49  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
::shrugs:: Iím offering up what strikes me as a sound argument in good faith, sure as I have no interest in falling silent. Do you require something more from me?
I'll bite.

In what way would HRC have been worse, IYO? Specific examples appreciated, if you're up for it.
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  #50  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Grrr! View Post
The "best" defense I've ever heard for Trump was from a guy on one of my FB debate groups:

"I didn't vote for Trump because I thought he was a good guy. I voted for him because I wanted to watch DC burn to the ground. And so far, he's doing a good job of that".

A disturbing post indeed. But at least it's an honest one, and it is not completely with out its merits.
Making the people on CNN very angry is what Trump was hired to do. It is the one thing, as President, which Trump has succeeded at.

Of course, the cost of that is everything else.

To most people (on both sides), politics exists as a game that players participate in, in DC. The practical ramifications of choices is lost and, if you try to point out what real effect their voting choices have had on the world they will go straight into denialism.

No one wants to accept that their favorite sports star is a wife beater. There's more affront if they're caught doping than hitting their spouse.

Likewise, no one wants to consider the ramifications of pulling our nuclear materials detectives out of Iran, because Obama.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-31-2019 at 02:39 PM.
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