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Old 09-07-2008, 09:08 PM
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Mad Men 2.7: The Gold Violin, Sep 7th '08 (open spoilers)


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Originally Posted by AMCTV
Don steps up in class and purchases a new set of wheels that is more appropriate for a big-time executive; Pete, Harry and Ken put their heads together to land new accounts; a serious error by Don's secretary could reflect poorly on Joan; the staff reacts to the new objet d'art in Cooper's office.
I wonder what the error that reflects so poorly on Joan is.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:11 PM
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Jane is going to suffer horribly at Joan's hands. It was bad anough she used the m-word, but going over her head to Sterling. I was disappointed that they didn't expand on Don's flashback to the used car dealership; hopefully it'll come up again in a later episode. Sal actually got married to Kitty? And his mother is apparently living with them (where was she during dinner)? Oh, and Betty's "cleaning up" at the park was absolutely disgusting. What that really acceptable behavior in 1962? I was less shocked at Duck when he abandoned his god.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:23 PM
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What exactly is the backstory with Don Draper and his assumed identity? I watched most of AMC's 1st season marathon, but I missed the last few episodes, and I only picked up from these threads that Don literally isn't who he says he is.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:29 PM
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What exactly is the backstory with Don Draper and his assumed identity? I watched most of AMC's 1st season marathon, but I missed the last few episodes, and I only picked up from these threads that Don literally isn't who he says he is.
He assumed he identity of a superior officer who died in the war. The real Don Draper was days away from being discharged and was starting a new unit with only our Don (Dick) having arrived. When he officer died, "Don" took his dog tags, was discharged and disappeared.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:24 PM
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Yep, our Don was actually a hapless dirt farmer's son named Dick Whitman (his mother was "a whore", whether professional or otherwise) who came to live with his distant father and long-suffering stepmother when he was born. He had a younger half-brother, Adam, who adored him and who was the only one who saw him cowering on the train when the coffin containing the body of the (burned beyond recognition after Dick accidentally blew up the ammo depot they were guarding) actual Don Draper was dropped off at Whitman's hometown as that of Whitman. Said brother actually tracked Dick down in his new identity in NY and eventually committed suicide when the frantic Dick disavowed him and tried to bribe him with $5,000 to go away forever.

And oh yeah, Pete somehow got the box Adam had of Dick's old stuff and, after trying to blackmail him with it, showed it to Bartlett Cooper. Who waved it off. So now Pete and Bartlett know he's Dick (although they don't know the entire story) but nobody else, not even his family, does.

Fantastic episode--lots of office antics, power struggles between Joan and Jane, Mark Rothko jokes, not too much Betty angst (except at the very end), and Don being called out by the cuckolded Jimmy to his face. Great stuff.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:27 PM
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Oh, and Betty's "cleaning up" at the park was absolutely disgusting. What that really acceptable behavior in 1962? I was less shocked at Duck when he abandoned his god.
And Don tossing his beer can. Yes, it was accepted behavior. It wasn't until Ladybird Johnson's "Beautify America" campaign that people really started paying attention to litter. (There were no trash receptacles in that park.) That scene fit in nicely with the disposable diapers, which despite 40+ years of "Give a Hoot -- Don't Pollute", we still see in roadside ditches.

I'm worried for Sal.

ETA: Do we really know that Don's mother was a whore? Heck, did we ever see Don's mother? I don't remember.

Last edited by AuntiePam; 09-07-2008 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:57 PM
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AFAIK, the only word we have that Don's mother was a whore is from his step-mother, who said it in front of his father, who would know, I guess. Why Mr. Whitman would accept the child of a whore as his son, as presumably she was having sex with other men, I don't know. I was hoping to get more Whitman backstory this ep, but what we got was just tantalizing.

I really hope Joan wreaks havoc on Jane, and on Sterling too, for trash talking about her to Jane.

Big revelations from Jimmy Barrett-- for the first time, Betty is forced to be aware that Don is having an affair, and with whom. And Jimmy lets Don know that he is also aware of the affair and makes Don feel like trash. So there's the culmination of the trash we see throughout the ep, as a reflection of Don't feelings. I love how Betty showed her moral nausea...

What did you make of the bit about Cooper's painting? It was just an investment, after all, and he had no concern about it's artistic merit either way?
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:06 AM
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Looks like we may find out a bit more about Peggy, the priest, and the baby in the next episode, from the previews. Speaking of, since I missed the end of last season, just what do we know for sure about Peggy and the baby?

1) Do we know that Peggy had a baby?
Assuming yes:
2) Do we know if it's Peter's? Don's? Someone elses?
3) Was it given up for adoption? Or was it one of the kids at her sister's house?

I'm just trying to sort what is known as fact, what is strongly insinuated, and what is just us, perhaps incorrectly, filling in the blanks.

Last edited by pulykamell; 09-08-2008 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:33 AM
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1) Do we know that Peggy had a baby?
Assuming yes:
2) Do we know if it's Peter's? Don's? Someone elses?
3) Was it given up for adoption? Or was it one of the kids at her sister's house?

I'm just trying to sort what is known as fact, what is strongly insinuated, and what is just us, perhaps incorrectly, filling in the blanks.
1) I vaguely recall the last episode of season 1 featuring the birth. But if not, it's strongly insinuated that she had the baby.

2) It's strongly insinuated that Pete is the father, if only because that's the only person they've actually shown Peggy be with. Don seems to have a strange but special relationship to Peggy, even before he came to see her in the hospital ward during the flashback. It doesn't seem sexual, though.

3) This seems to be speculation, but I do recall someone anticipating that this was going to be revealed a few episodes back. Peggy's sister was pregnant last season, so none of the kids over there are likely Peggy's.

Also, this:

Quote:
I was less shocked at Duck when he abandoned his god.
is now my favorite quote ever.
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Looks like we may find out a bit more about Peggy, the priest, and the baby in the next episode, from the previews. Speaking of, since I missed the end of last season, just what do we know for sure about Peggy and the baby?

1) Do we know that Peggy had a baby?
Assuming yes:
2) Do we know if it's Peter's? Don's? Someone elses?
3) Was it given up for adoption? Or was it one of the kids at her sister's house?

I'm just trying to sort what is known as fact, what is strongly insinuated, and what is just us, perhaps incorrectly, filling in the blanks.
1) Peggy had a baby, but she didn't know that she was pregnant until she went into labor, and she wouldn't hold or look at her son when the nurse brought it to her at the hospital.
2) Pete seduced Peggy on the day she started taking birth control pills. It's unlikely to be anybody else's. It's never been implied that Peggy slept with Don. He was a bit surprised when she got up the nerve to call him "Don" a couple of weeks ago, and I think that kind of defines their relationship.
3) When, in the flashback, Peggy's mother and sister visited her in the hospital after she gave birth, the sister was heavily pregnant. The implication is that the child we thought was Peggy's is actually her nephew, and hers was given up for adoption.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:17 AM
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I actually hope Jane is able to bring Joan down a peg or two. She's just so damn haughty and wields more of a sense of superiority than her position warrants. I think we're going to see cracks in her armor brought about by her engagement (since she won't be getting her regular injections from Roger any longer) and the younger and prettier Jane now hiding behind Roger's shield (who she'll be sleeping with before long).

Great episode. I liked that Jimmy waited until his series was picked up by ABC, and his relationship with Utz had stabilized, to bring the smackdown to Don. He may suffer in the long run, but he made his point.

Sal wants him some Cosgrove in a bad way, and I don't think Kennie has any idea.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:42 AM
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...Sal wants him some Cosgrove in a bad way, and I don't think Kennie has any idea.
Having a crush on a straight boy never ends well. Sal's trying even harder to stay in the closet than last season. Until the scene with him and Kitty after Ken left I was starting to think she was a lesbian and they were eachother's beards. She actually thinks the marriage is real.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:58 PM
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What's your take on the "It's not a jingle -- it's a song" presented by the Sterling Cooper kids? I think the timing is right. I'm remembering the instrumental from an Alka-Seltzer ad. Was that the first song from an ad that ended up on the pop charts?
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:07 PM
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My impression was that the hipsters didn't like the term "jingle" because it was too advertise-y, and they're down on traditional advsertising because they don't want to be told what to do, daddy-o. So basically, semantics. I can't imagine that particular song actually getting play outside of the commercial itself, but I wasn't alive in 1962, so it could be legitimate and historically accurate.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:18 PM
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What's your take on the "It's not a jingle -- it's a song" presented by the Sterling Cooper kids? I think the timing is right. I'm remembering the instrumental from an Alka-Seltzer ad. Was that the first song from an ad that ended up on the pop charts?
I didn't get it at all. But then - I'm not "their generation." My dad is. (Born early 1940s- pre-baby-boom. Exactly the age that those "kids" are supposed to be selling to.) I don't know that he would get it either.

I felt so sorry for both Sal & Kitty - both of them are going to get their hearts broken. But damn, I loved that apartment. It's now my favorite Mad Men set, and there are a ton of good candidates for that position. I want Sal to come over and decorate for me. (I accidentally painted my bathroom the same color as their dining room. I now know what's going to work in the space.)

I want Joan to win.

And to answer pulykamell's questions: Yes, Peggy & Pete been shown together twice - and Peggy's never been seen with anyone else, and uncertain - but my money's on "that's Peggy & Pete's baby at her sister's house."
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:19 PM
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I was alive in 1962 and I wouldn't have liked that song either. Peggy said it was what -- catchy?

I was surprised at the mention of the SDS, thinking it was too early. But Wiki says they had their first convention in July 1962. I don't remember hearing of them until the late 60's.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:09 PM
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I'm confused about the Pampers. My mom used to complain about nobody inventing disposable diapers, until her youngest (me), was too old to wear them. I was born in '63.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:24 PM
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I'm confused about the Pampers. My mom used to complain about nobody inventing disposable diapers, until her youngest (me), was too old to wear them. I was born in '63.
According to Wikipedia, Pampers were introduced in 1961, and a more refined version came along in 1966. My youngest brother was born in December 1965, and I vaguely remember him wearing Pampers at some point (I was only about 4-5 at the time, so it's a bit fuzzy). They might not have been available nationwide at first.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:03 PM
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In a previous episode, when Peggy was at her sister's house, as she was leaving, her mom said something like, "Don't you want to say goodnight to the baby?" which to me implied that there was some particular reason to do so. But now that the sister's pregnancy is mentioned, I don't recall there being more than one baby there, so maybe Peggy's was given up for adoption, and her mom is just trying to elicit some kind of maternal feelings, in hopes of her having a legitimate child some day. I'll have to go back through the TWoP recaps.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:32 PM
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I think we'll find out that Peggy did give up her baby. The hints are there -- only one child of that age in the household and Peggy's sister being very pregnant when Peggy delivered. Any other resolution would be really contrived, and so far Weiner hasn't contrived much -- except for the Don/Dick thing.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:01 PM
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Team Joan, all the way, and I suspect that Roger, if pressed, will be as well. He's genuinely fond of Joan, who just happens to also be an excellent office manager. Jane is a piece of ass, and Sterling has a nearly endless supply of those.

Jimmy Barrett is a magnificent asshole. Well played.

And this is driving me crazy, who is the actress who plays Jane? She's not listed on IMDB, or in the Mad Men cast and crew on amc.com. I'm certain I've seen her in something else, but I can't think what.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:14 PM
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And this is driving me crazy, who is the actress who plays Jane? She's not listed on IMDB, or in the Mad Men cast and crew on amc.com. I'm certain I've seen her in something else, but I can't think what.
Peyton List. Her other credits are 27 Dresses and As the World Turns. She's 22.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:18 PM
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Thank you! I've never seen either of those, but I checked her IMDB profile, and she was in Big Shots, which I'm just as embarrassed about having seen as I would be 27 Dresses or As the World Turns. Or at least I would be, if Dylan McDermott weren't so hot.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:06 PM
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Dang, Peyton List is Jane! She played Lucy Montgomery on ATWT (before the last incarnation, played by Spencer Grammar, Kelsey's daughter)--and I never would have recognized her!

I'm still trying to catch up on who is who in this show, as I just started watching it last weekend. So much to comment about. The littering was definitely -not- par for the course, early 60s. At least not in my family - if there wasn't a trash can, you took it with you until you could dispose of it properly. That was just nasty, what the Drapers did. Poor Sal and Kitty - Sal's definitely got a crush on Ken; I wonder when Ken is going to realize where he "left" his lighter? That Jimmy was awful -- but wasn't Mrs. Draper supposed to be part of his "deal" that Bobbie negotiated with Don? I think so, and when she kept rejecting him, that's when he spilled the beans. I may be wrong, though -- as I said, still catching up.

Do love this show, though, and especially love seeing the early 60s. It was definitely a fun time, at least before the JFK assassination--for a 10 year old.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:39 PM
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That Jimmy was awful -- but wasn't Mrs. Draper supposed to be part of his "deal" that Bobbie negotiated with Don? I think so, and when she kept rejecting him, that's when he spilled the beans. I may be wrong, though -- as I said, still catching up.
Betty was expected to charm Jimmy at Lutece, but no way would Don pimp her out. He was upset with her in S1 when he thought she was too friendly with Roger when he came to dinner. He's okay with people admiring his wife, but that's all.
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:20 PM
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That Jimmy was awful -- but wasn't Mrs. Draper supposed to be part of his "deal" that Bobbie negotiated with Don? I think so, and when she kept rejecting him, that's when he spilled the beans. I may be wrong, though -- as I said, still catching up.
Betty was expected to charm Jimmy at Lutece, but no way would Don pimp her out. He was upset with her in S1 when he thought she was too friendly with Roger when he came to dinner. He's okay with people admiring his wife, but that's all.
Yeah, Don would never pimp Betty out, but Jimmy may have thought that, since Don was screwing his wife, well, fair is fair.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:55 AM
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Yeah, Don would never pimp Betty out, but Jimmy may have thought that, since Don was screwing his wife, well, fair is fair.
I think he was trying to get back at Don by ruining the marriage through telling Betty. I don't think he ever for a second thought he'd end up screwing Betty.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:42 AM
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Joanís great at strutting around like a cock in the hen house and giving the figurative smack-down to anyone who dares to get in her way. If she never has a foil- never faces a worthy competitor- itíll get boring to watch. It will be much more interesting if they present her with a character that sort of rattles her a bit, makes her work for it a little, makes her worry that she might be losing her touch. After all, she is in her [gasp!] thirties. I think they should show a power struggle* between Jane and Joan.




*Culminating in a catfight. In bath towels.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:05 AM
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And Don tossing his beer can. Yes, it was accepted behavior. It wasn't until Ladybird Johnson's "Beautify America" campaign that people really started paying attention to litter. (There were no trash receptacles in that park.) That scene fit in nicely with the disposable diapers, which despite 40+ years of "Give a Hoot -- Don't Pollute", we still see in roadside ditches.
Part of the reason I like this show is the attention to detail by the prop people. When Don finished his beer (Schlitz?) and was getting ready to toss it, you could briefly see the top of the can, which had two punctures in the top created by the ubiquitous church key.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:08 AM
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his mother was "a whore", whether professional or otherwise
Draper's mother was an actual prostitute. His father was one of her johns. After the mother died, he went to live with his biological father and his wife, who never let Don forget where he came from. I believe Don told Rachel all this.

I believe that Adam was the legitimate child of Don's father and his father's wife, but I think that their father died before Adam was actually born. Adam's mother then married "Uncle-something," who I believe was just as abusive to Don as his own father had been.

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The littering was definitely -not- par for the course, early 60s. At least not in my family
I think the "at least not in my family" is the key. Even now there's some litter. In the '70s, things were worse. There's a reason that there were actually massive advertising campaigns to get people not to pull that shit -- Give a Hoot, the crying Indian.

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That Jimmy was awful
Seemed to me that he was pretty righteous in that scene. Why should he play along?

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-- but wasn't Mrs. Draper supposed to be part of his "deal" that Bobbie negotiated with Don?
Definitely not.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:44 AM
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Seemed to me that he was pretty righteous in that scene. Why should he play along?
Self-righteous. It was cruel of him to tell Betty but I get why he did it. I think he's truly hurt by Bobbi's affairs, and he wanted to hurt Don. And maybe he wanted to hurt Betty too, kick her off of that cloud she's on.

The casting helps with this story line. If Jimmy was a big handsome guy like Don, it wouldn't have worked.
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:44 PM
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.....I believe that Adam was the legitimate child of Don's father and his father's wife, but I think that their father died before Adam was actually born. Adam's mother then married "Uncle-something," who I believe was just as abusive to Don as his own father had been......
I've wondered about that part of Don's story. What was the exact timeline of Adam's conception, Don's father's accidental death & the marriage to Uncle So&So? Don shares his father's swarthy good looks but Adam resembled neither of them. Was Don escaping from something darker than a bunch of no account, Bible-thumping, kid-beating yokels?

Since Don's father supposedly died after being kicked by a horse, it's not strange that he does not share Betty's equestrian interests. He probably shoveled too much horseshit in his day to have any fantasies of riding to hounds with the landed gentry. Could she have found a more boring hobby to soak up the time not spent being annoyed by her son? She went to college & lived in Europe but we've only seen her reading Fitzgerald--because of the pompous dweeb in the stable. Don does have intellectual interests--along with his "other" pastimes. Perhaps her encounter with "those (non-Nordic) people" woke her up out of her daze. Or maybe she's still gobbling the pills prescribed by the psychiatrist she saw in Season 1.

Finally--is Don Draper really the toast of all the frisky ladies in Manhattan? Or did Bobbie discover his connection with the mysterious Random House lady & decide to screw with him? (Some more, that is?)

I love this show.....

Last edited by Bridget Burke; 09-09-2008 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:29 PM
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Finally--is Don Draper really the toast of all the frisky ladies in Manhattan? Or did Bobbie discover his connection with the mysterious Random House lady & decide to screw with him? (Some more, that is?)
I don't know why that surprised me -- learning that Don's been a hound for awhile -- but it did. I guess I thought he only started straying when we first met him, in 1960.

My guess is yeah, he's the toast of the town. He has no competition on the show, except maybe Roger, when it comes to looks and charisma and sex appeal.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:45 PM
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I don't know why that surprised me -- learning that Don's been a hound for awhile -- but it did. I guess I thought he only started straying when we first met him, in 1960.

My guess is yeah, he's the toast of the town. He has no competition on the show, except maybe Roger, when it comes to looks and charisma and sex appeal.
Really? Looks, I'll give you that. Sex appeal, I'll take your word for it. But charisma? He projects an aura of "I'm a prick", almost going out of his way to be joyless and unapproachable. Do people really see that as charismatic?
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:48 PM
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I do. It's almost a bad boy vibe, his aloofness, like he can't be touched, emotionally. Women like Bobbi would see him as a challenge. Not getting him into bed -- that's easy -- but keeping him interested, like she said.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:42 PM
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Self-righteous. It was cruel of him to tell Betty but I get why he did it.
I disagree on both counts. It was neither self-righteous nor cruel. Draper's sleeping with his wife, for pete's sake. Telling his wife is not only justified but practially a moral imperative.

Quote:
I think he's truly hurt by Bobbi's affairs, and he wanted to hurt Don. And maybe he wanted to hurt Betty too, kick her off of that cloud she's on.
Even if none of this was true, I think he should had would have done exactly what he did.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:52 PM
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I disagree on both counts. It was neither self-righteous nor cruel. Draper's sleeping with his wife, for pete's sake. Telling his wife is not only justified but practially a moral imperative.
But Jimmy's not a moral person -- he's just vindictive. He doesn't care a fig about Betty. And he didn't confront anybody until his deal with ABC was accomplished.

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Old 09-09-2008, 10:14 PM
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The texturing and layering of this show is wonderful. The way they have fleshed out so many characters in such a short time. I know the primary focus is Don and Betty but I keep forgetting about folks like closeted Ken and Sal. That dynamic is great. Peggy remains a mystery and yet she is likeable and has been successful. I noticed that the ponytail made a comeback this episode. She does need a more "mature" hairstyle for the office. But she has done well for herself there so far. I think her comment about the new far-out, happenin' jingle we heard was "It stays with you" which was very diplomatic!

I still want to know if Duck is on or off the wagon. I thought that Jane (that's the new secretary, right?) finagled her little situation quite nicely to her advantage although I'm not sure she knew what an enemy she would make out of Joan.

And it is about time that Betty learned something of Don's hobby. The repercussions will be very interesting to see.

I, too, am a huge fan of this show!
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AuntiePam View Post
But Jimmy's not a moral person
Based on what? He's an abrasive jerk, but have we seen him do anything immoral? Don and Roger and several of teh other charactes have been shown doing far less moral things than we've seen Jimmy doing.

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-- he's just vindictive. He doesn't care a fig about Betty.
Of all the bad behavior you've seen on this show, you've decided that Jimmy's sole character trait is that he's vindictive?

I don't think either "vindictive" nor "doesn't care a fig" is a supportable conclusion. He was angry at being victimized by Don, justifiably so, and what he did was tell Don that he knew it and he clued in the other victim (Betty). Betty's reaction is really not Jimmy's responsibility.

Frankly, I think he deserves a medal for his restraint.

Quote:
And he didn't confront anybody until his deal with ABC was accomplished.
That indicates neither immorality nor vindictiveness. What was actually immoral about getting what he wanted -- his success ultimately relies on his own talent, after all -- before he said anything?

He had already been injured. Why not use Bobbie and Don for what he could get out of them before spilling the beans? Don and Bobbie have gone ahead and taken what they want. Why shouldn't Jimmy be allowed to earn what he wants?
  #40  
Old 09-09-2008, 11:38 PM
jellyblue is offline
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Hmm... I dunno. We've seen Don be caring sometimes, or kind. He didn't have to actually give Pete advice when his father died after Pete was such a little turd to him, he didn't have to go find Peggy in the hospital and he's as decent a dad as most for that day and age. All we've seen Jimmy do is be needlessly cruel to a fat lady.
  #41  
Old 09-10-2008, 12:32 AM
Dewey Finn is offline
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Originally Posted by PeacePlease View Post
The texturing and layering of this show is wonderful. The way they have fleshed out so many characters in such a short time. I know the primary focus is Don and Betty but I keep forgetting about folks like closeted Ken and Sal.
It's been made clear, I think that Sal is a closeted gay man, but I never got that impression about Ken Cosgrove.
  #42  
Old 09-10-2008, 01:21 AM
amarinth is offline
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Originally Posted by PeacePlease View Post
I still want to know if Duck is on or off the wagon.
I think he's off. He was more animated, more confident, less tenative, looser...
he might have finally found his own self worth, but based on last week with Chauncey, I think he found a good bottle of vodka.
  #43  
Old 09-10-2008, 01:23 AM
Indistinguishable is offline
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Originally Posted by jellyblue View Post
Hmm... I dunno. We've seen Don be caring sometimes, or kind. He didn't have to actually give Pete advice when his father died after Pete was such a little turd to him, he didn't have to go find Peggy in the hospital and he's as decent a dad as most for that day and age. All we've seen Jimmy do is be needlessly cruel to a fat lady.
Yes, we've seen Don be kind and Jimmy be cruel. We've also seen Don be a prick and a philanderer, and Jimmy express perfectly justifiable anger. The morality of their actions in other situations doesn't change the facts of the morality of their actions in this situation.
  #44  
Old 09-10-2008, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AuntiePam View Post
I was surprised at the mention of the SDS, thinking it was too early. But Wiki says they had their first convention in July 1962. I don't remember hearing of them until the late 60's.
What often gets forgotten, especially with the tendency to remember only the more flamboyant and violent episodes of the 1960s, is that SDS began as a highly intellectual movement and only later began to place more emphasis on the sort of direct action for which they are best known. The "rant" that the guy was reading from in this episode was actually the Port Huron Statement, the main intellectual and political document of the early SDS, formulated at that meeting in mid-1962.

James Miller's book Democracy is in the Streets does a great job of charting the early development of SDS, and focuses closely on the intellectual underpinnings of their ideology.
  #45  
Old 09-10-2008, 08:05 AM
PeacePlease is offline
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
It's been made clear, I think that Sal is a closeted gay man, but I never got that impression about Ken Cosgrove.
I thought Ken was the one that had a "date" with a guy last season. If I remember correctly, he struggled with the decision to take the other guy up on his offer. Am I thinking of the right person?
  #46  
Old 09-10-2008, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by acsenray View Post
Based on what? He's an abrasive jerk, but have we seen him do anything immoral? Don and Roger and several of the other characters have been shown doing far less moral things than we've seen Jimmy doing.
Based on pimping his wife to Don. He didn't do anything about it until his TV deal was in the can. I think we can safely assume he's used her that way before. It's sad as hell, and I do think it hurts him. I do like the character though.

I agree that he's no worse than some of the others, but he's the one we were talking about.

mhendo, thanks for that information.

peaceplease, Sal's the one who had the date in S1.

Last edited by AuntiePam; 09-10-2008 at 08:12 AM.
  #47  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AuntiePam View Post
Based on pimping his wife to Don.
It seems to me she did that herself. And it was pretty much peripheral to the whole deal going through.

Bobbie didn't get anything from Don that she wouldn't have gotten anyway. Bobbie has hinted that she might have used sex to get what she wants, but it's not entirely clear what her exact history is along these lines and what Jimmy might know about it. Her attitude is that she plays with Jimmy like a child to get what she wants. With Don, what she wanted was the sex. Neither Don nor anyone else was holding up the deal in exchange for it.

Quote:
He didn't do anything about it until his TV deal was in the can. I think we can safely assume he's used her that way before.
I don't think we can. His anger was of a person who wasn't accustomed to it.
  #48  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:14 AM
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I would have had some respect for Jimmy if he had stepped up earlier, even if it meant pissing Don off and possibly losing his TV show. You're right though -- Don and Bobbie got what they wanted, so why shouldn't Jimmy.

I still don't agree that he was justified in telling Betty. Seems like when you drop a bomb like that on somebody, you can't just walk away. It's a bit different when a friend tells you -- presumably they're trying to help, and they'll be there for you. The way I see it, Jimmy hurt an innocent person to get back at Don.

It's a sign of good writing that we can have such different ideas about these characters.
  #49  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PeacePlease View Post
I thought Ken was the one that had a "date" with a guy last season. If I remember correctly, he struggled with the decision to take the other guy up on his offer. Am I thinking of the right person?
Just to clarify, Sal is the handsome Italian gent; Ken is the skinny blond account exec. Sal struggled w/his decision, I think because he hadn't yet fully admitted to himself that he was gay. In the year and a half since S1, evidently he's come to terms with it and isn't afraid to hit on a co-worker.
  #50  
Old 09-10-2008, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by corkboard View Post
Just to clarify, Sal is the handsome Italian gent; Ken is the skinny blond account exec. Sal struggled w/his decision, I think because he hadn't yet fully admitted to himself that he was gay. In the year and a half since S1, evidently he's come to terms with it and isn't afraid to hit on a co-worker.
I don't think he has come to terms with it, given that he married a woman, and I don't think that Ken was fully aware that Sal has the hots for him. He's starting to feel discontent with the marriage, though, and I'm really interested to see where they're going with this, whether it will be an ongoing unrequited crush, or if he will risk everything by making a move.
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