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  #601  
Old 05-19-2017, 11:53 AM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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As PZ Myers noted in his article, what we have here is "rhetorical deniability":
Quote:
Cenk Uygur nails Harris on his rhetorical deniability. Really, if you fall for his game of “here’s this evil thing I want you to think about, but I’m saying it’s evil, so don’t blame me if maybe we have to do it”, then you’re a fool.
I have to point here to a comment from the article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrockoford
Sam Harris and his fan boys present themselves as uber rationalists yet have real trouble with a hallmark of rationalism, which is to be able to distinguish, to the best of our ability, causes from mere coincidences, correlations, etc. So, they decided that Islam — all of Islam, not denominations or sects, Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis, Bahais — is directly responsible for terrorism as if Islam is a specific virus that affects any and all that come in contact with it and becomes a full-fledged disorder for many; it’s ideological Ebola.
And so it goes for other issues. IMHO it is good to call attention to unfair moves that some made on college campus when using violence against people like Murray speaking. But it does not follow that you should then conclude that what the speaker peddles is a good thing.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-19-2017 at 11:54 AM..
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  #602  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:03 PM
nachtmusick nachtmusick is offline
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
I'm more baffled that defenders of Harris and Murray do not see that they want to have their cake and eat it too.

I think the point is missed here that many of the defenders of scientific racism do grasp and use the words of Harris and others to justify their sorry paths. That some come later to claim that there is perfectly good explanation of the very reprehensible or unscientific things Harris talks about does not change that many racists do grab the "misunderstandings" and I have seen enough to conclude that Harris and others do not do much of an effort to discourage racists from running away with their "misconceptions". And I put that in quote marks because by now it is very clear what is going on regarding the "method" of discussion Harris uses.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/cenk...-policy-ideas/


http://www.alternet.org/belief/sam-h...hared-it-world


Of course Chomsky showed later how irresponsible Sam was on that.

The more I read about him the more his style of being a bit ambivalent or having the consistence of baby poop is more noticeable (this reprehensible idea is bad, but maybe..). Also that he commits a lot of the very thing his supporters and him accuse others of doing: To not read what people like Chomsky actually wrote before tossing stones. Might as well consider him as not having any opinion at all worth considering. That is what I see other critics notice too.
OK, so I don't think this is a credible post. Google "Waking Up" to find a path to Sam Harris's podcast. Decide for yourself. Pick any one of his casts - there isn't a single one that is consistent with what GIGO just wrote.
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  #603  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:28 PM
Rick Sanchez Rick Sanchez is offline
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Originally Posted by nachtmusick View Post
OK, so I don't think this is a credible post. Google "Waking Up" to find a path to Sam Harris's podcast. Decide for yourself. Pick any one of his casts - there isn't a single one that is consistent with what GIGO just wrote.
He could also try reading 'Islam and the Future of Tolerance' or 'End of Faith'.
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  #604  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:29 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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Originally Posted by nachtmusick View Post
OK, so I don't think this is a credible post. Google "Waking Up" to find a path to Sam Harris's podcast. Decide for yourself. Pick any one of his casts - there isn't a single one that is consistent with what GIGO just wrote.
Yep, Cenk Uygur was correct. BTW the cite I made goes directly to the email communications between Harris and Chomsky, you are indeed just trying to mislead others here.
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  #605  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:30 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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He could also try reading 'Islam and the Future of Tolerance' or 'End of Faith'.
Or you should read and find that the cite I made goes to the email back and forth between Harris and Chomsky.
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  #606  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:51 PM
Rick Sanchez Rick Sanchez is offline
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
Or you should read and find that the cite I made goes to the email back and forth between Harris and Chomsky.
Okay. I'll do that. You read 'Islam and the Future of Tolerance'. It's a very short book, probably only about 50-60 pages. You can probably read it in an hour or two.
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  #607  
Old 05-19-2017, 01:10 PM
nachtmusick nachtmusick is offline
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
Yep, Cenk Uygur was correct. BTW the cite I made goes directly to the email communications between Harris and Chomsky, you are indeed just trying to mislead others here.
By steering them away from your links to any other that they might find? Give me a break.

For the record, Sam and Cenk had a marathon clear-the-air conversation, and here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU

I've sat through it, but I can't recommend it. It goes on for three hours. I will say that I think that Sam chases Cenk all over the room, but of course I would, wouldn't I?
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  #608  
Old 05-19-2017, 03:03 PM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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nachtmusick, you seem to be posting to this thread a lot, so this a reminder that I've requested the following from you:

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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
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Originally Posted by nachtmusick View Post
The opposition states that all variation is cultural, but they more or less prohibit research to confirm that theorem.
Not sure what you're saying here. Care to provide some examples? Some examples of "the opposition" "prohibiting research" would be good.

Last edited by Evil Economist; 05-19-2017 at 03:04 PM..
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  #609  
Old 05-19-2017, 03:28 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by nachtmusick View Post
No I didn't.

Are you telling me I shouldn't read that book? What if, for whatever reason, I decide I want to?

Would you burn all copies of that book so as to prevent me from reading it?

As long as we are starting a fire, how about we throw Charles Murray's work upon the blaze? Or Sam Harris's?

Surely society would benefit if these foul ideas were expunged in the flames.
I'm pointing out that by the post I responded to, you wouldn't call Hitler a bigot unless you've read his book. I feel differently -- it can be reasonable to call people bigots based on other actions and words, and reading their book isn't always necessary.
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  #610  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:42 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Ah yes, the old argument that it's not enough to be able to refute some bigoted argument being made by a person. I must read his entire book before I can make any comment.
If it's some rando? No, you don't have that obligation. If a Pulitzer-finalist and widely respected Harvard professor says the book is an "honest and intelligent dialogue" and "a superb exploration of the intellectual and moral issues involved", then yes: you are going way too far out on a limb to dismiss the book as bigoted, if you have not read it. Context, people, context. I'm pretty sure the same cannot be said about any book by, say, David Duke.

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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
I think the point is missed here that many of the defenders of scientific racism do grasp and use the words of Harris and others to justify their sorry paths. That some come later to claim that there is perfectly good explanation of the very reprehensible or unscientific things Harris talks about does not change that many racists do grab the "misunderstandings" and I have seen enough to conclude that Harris and others do not do much of an effort to discourage racists from running away with their "misconceptions".
I'm glad to see someone be a little more honest about this. I feel that this is at the heart of most of the flaming tirades against any discussion of IQ and race: the idea that regardless of what the facts show, this topic should be taboo simply because it is inherently toxic and provides succor for bad people. And this is actually a reasonable stance! Sam has said much the same many times (disagreeing with some of his fellow "horsemen" like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens), and he actually pressed Murray on this very point in the podcast.

I am sympathetic to this notion in general; but as I've said many times, it would have to go hand in hand with an implicit understanding among educators and those who set education policy to go back to the so-called "soft bigotry of low expectations". So long as teachers, school administrators, and those in charge of education policy are going to be under fire because majority-black inner city schools' test scores lag behind national averages, supporters of educators and teacher unions like me need to be able to make this counterargument for why these scores are not the fault of teachers or "failing schools". I'd be glad to never have to raise it again--sincerely--but it is a two-way street.
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  #611  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:03 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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Originally Posted by nachtmusick View Post
By steering them away from your links to any other that they might find? Give me a break.
You will not get it, specially when you are misrepresenting my post, as Harris loves to go about.

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Originally Posted by nachtmusick View Post
For the record, Sam and Cenk had a marathon clear-the-air conversation, and here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU

I've sat through it, but I can't recommend it. It goes on for three hours. I will say that I think that Sam chases Cenk all over the room, but of course I would, wouldn't I?
No wonder, because I did check how Harris likes to debate, in one occasion he did make the point that among Muslims:

Quote:
25:29 Extremism is a false statement because extremism suggests
there is only a small percentage of people who agrees with this view.

And certainly you never get a small percentage. It may be the ultimate question. "You want the hands and feet of thieves are cut?" "You want me to kill adulterers?"
No matter what the question, you never get three percent. Or five percent.
But that avoids the fact that on a very very important issue the surveys do point out that most Muslims are indeed against Terrorism or Isis. By going for very ridiculous percentages is that then he can keep ignoring that most Muslims do not approve of terrorism.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/
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  #612  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:09 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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I'm glad to see someone be a little more honest about this. I feel that this is at the heart of most of the flaming tirades against any discussion of IQ and race: the idea that regardless of what the facts show, this topic should be taboo simply because it is inherently toxic and provides succor for bad people. And this is actually a reasonable stance! Sam has said much the same many times (disagreeing with some of his fellow "horsemen" like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens), and he actually pressed Murray on this very point in the podcast.
As I pointed before, you are indeed falling here for his game of “here’s this evil thing I want you to think about, but I’m saying it’s evil, so don’t blame me if maybe we have to do it”. That is indeed foolish.


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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I am sympathetic to this notion in general; but as I've said many times, it would have to go hand in hand with an implicit understanding among educators and those who set education policy to go back to the so-called "soft bigotry of low expectations". So long as teachers, school administrators, and those in charge of education policy are going to be under fire because majority-black inner city schools' test scores lag behind national averages, supporters of educators and teacher unions like me need to be able to make this counterargument for why these scores are not the fault of teachers or "failing schools". I'd be glad to never have to raise it again--sincerely--but it is a two-way street.
And as pointed before, Murray and others have really no clue about what are the proper solutions for the issue you are talking about here.
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  #613  
Old 05-19-2017, 08:02 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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You will not get it, specially when you are misrepresenting my post, as Harris loves to go about.


No wonder, because I did check how Harris likes to debate, in one occasion he did make the point that among Muslims:



But that avoids the fact that on a very very important issue the surveys do point out that most Muslims are indeed against Terrorism or Isis. By going for very ridiculous percentages is that then he can keep ignoring that most Muslims do not approve of terrorism.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...und-the-world/
You are artificially narrowing the goalposts in a way I don't accept. Extremist views are not limited to terrorism. South African apartheid oppression didn't generally involve terrorism; same for modern day North Korea or even virulent Trump supporters. If large percentages of Muslims want to cut off hands for minor crimes, or kill people for things that we in the West know better than to make any kind of crime at all (adultery, homosexuality), that is a clear indication that modern day Islam is an especially benighted and oppressive ideology, as Christianity was centuries ago. But liberals are afraid to say that, and instead take the quixotic position that the real threat (a la "Handmaid's Tale") is conservative Christianity. The latter is no picnic, mind you. But it's centuries ahead of the ideology so prevalent in the Muslim world.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 05-19-2017 at 08:03 PM..
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  #614  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:10 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
You are artificially narrowing the goalposts in a way I don't accept. Extremist views are not limited to terrorism. South African apartheid oppression didn't generally involve terrorism; same for modern day North Korea or even virulent Trump supporters. If large percentages of Muslims want to cut off hands for minor crimes, or kill people for things that we in the West know better than to make any kind of crime at all (adultery, homosexuality), that is a clear indication that modern day Islam is an especially benighted and oppressive ideology, as Christianity was centuries ago. But liberals are afraid to say that, and instead take the quixotic position that the real threat (a la "Handmaid's Tale") is conservative Christianity. The latter is no picnic, mind you. But it's centuries ahead of the ideology so prevalent in the Muslim world.
Extremist sects of Islam are a big problem. But not Islam itself. That, unfortunately, some oppressive cultural practices happen to be associated with some societies that are majority Islam sucks, but it's due to the practices of that specific region, which usually predated Islam, not Islam itself.

Further, this rhetoric makes us less safe, because it makes the many millions of peaceful but still religious Muslims less likely to see us as allies against the extremists they hate and fear as much as we do.

We should be fighting, and criticizing, extremism and violence, not lumping peaceful people into the same bucket as the violent ones.
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  #615  
Old 05-19-2017, 11:04 PM
Mijin Mijin is offline
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If it's some rando? No, you don't have that obligation. If a Pulitzer-finalist and widely respected Harvard professor says the book is an "honest and intelligent dialogue" and "a superb exploration of the intellectual and moral issues involved", then yes: you are going way too far out on a limb to dismiss the book as bigoted, if you have not read it.
Context is indeed important.

Firstly, I didn't call the book bigoted.

We were talking about the political leanings of Harris, and I was saying I don't care: Regardless what his aims are, he's writing, and lecturing, on multiple topics than have little to no scientific value, but which are "catnip" to racists, bigots etc.

So this is why it's weird to have people tell me I must read the book before I can say what the subject of the book is.

Or, to support the statement I made, we can just scratch Islam and the future of tolerance, and I'll just link a dozen of his recent lectures instead.
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  #616  
Old 05-23-2017, 01:46 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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In his latest podcast episode, Sam revisits this controversy.

He actually spends the first seven minutes snickering about a new Sokol-type hoax, a paper called "The Conceptual Penis as a Social Construct" that passed peer review and got published, despite even the authors' names being fake. Not explicitly about IQ, race, or Charles Murray; but another example of why I scoff at the idea that "peer reviewed" inherently provides gravitas.

Then from 10:45 to 29:00, Sam addresses the Vox piece iiandyii posted. He is in an email negotiation with Ezra Klein to see about getting Klein to come discuss the controversy on his podcast, so I really hope that happens as I like both of them but they are in opposite corners here.

From 29:00 to 31:05, Sam prefaces his interview of the Pulitzer Prize-winning scientist and author Siddhartha Mukherjee by explaining that since Mukherjee spends a few pages on Murray in his latest book, Sam could not resist raising the topic, but not until the second hour of the conversation. That comes at 1:37:27 and continues for just over a half hour, to 2:08:47.

It might surprise some people to hear, since I'm such a Sam Harris devotee, that I thought Mukherjee got the better of Harris here. But notice that one of the primary arguments Mukherjee makes is rather similar to one I made repeatedly in this thread, which was generally greeted with scoffs. Mukherjee does not specifically name Gardner or use the term "multiple intelligences", but that's pretty unmistakeably what he's going for with his analogy about blue eyes and his references to LeBron James.

[It's all the more surprising that I took Mukherjee's side over Sam's in that section, given that I had not been nearly as impressed when they were earlier debating whether expecting mothers should be required to prevent horrendous genetic diseases like cystic fibrosis, which not only cause great suffering but place a heavy burden on the health care system we all collectively pay for. You can go to around the 1:11:00 mark to get a sense of that debate, which I thought was decisively won by Harris, even though he raised only the issue of suffering and not the point about cost to the health system, which I consider highly relevant as well.]
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  #617  
Old 05-23-2017, 06:33 AM
tomndebb tomndebb is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc;20226071He actually spends the first seven minutes snickering about [URL="http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/conceptual-penis-social-contruct-sokal-style-hoax-on-gender-studies/"
a new Sokol-type hoax[/URL], a paper called "The Conceptual Penis as a Social Construct" that passed peer review and got published, despite even the authors' names being fake. Not explicitly about IQ, race, or Charles Murray; but another example of why I scoff at the idea that "peer reviewed" inherently provides gravitas.
The "paper" was published in a pay-to-play journal that is only two years old and has no serious reputation in any field of science. It is the academic equivalent of vanity press.
Peer review may be overrated in some instances, but part of the evaluation of such papers includes an understanding of the publications in which they are published. This incident did nothing to seriously question peer review, only indicating that there is more to genuine peer review than simply tacking the label on spurious publications.
If Harris used this example to challenge peer review, he is suffering from the same problem at which he is scoffing.
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  #618  
Old 05-23-2017, 06:44 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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If Harris used this example to challenge peer review, he is suffering from the same problem at which he is scoffing.
He did not. He just read some of it and tried to contain his laughter (it is pretty funny, although I found the last bits he read, relating to capitalism/patriarchy/climate change, surprisingly on point).

Of course, you could have just spent four and a half minutes like I did (on 1.5x) just listening for yourself.
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  #619  
Old 05-23-2017, 07:43 AM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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He did not. He just read some of it and tried to contain his laughter (it is pretty funny, although I found the last bits he read, relating to capitalism/patriarchy/climate change, surprisingly on point).

Of course, you could have just spent four and a half minutes like I did (on 1.5x) just listening for yourself.
Besides showing again your jerkish inability to type a bit of what Harris or others said, tomndeb said "if". You are not grasping basic tings. Of course in context it was you the one that attempted to use that item to stupidly claim that peer review was not a serious thing.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-23-2017 at 07:44 AM..
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  #620  
Old 05-23-2017, 07:48 AM
Malleus, Incus, Stapes! Malleus, Incus, Stapes! is offline
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And here I was sure SlackerInc would be posting today because of this.

Last edited by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!; 05-23-2017 at 07:49 AM..
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  #621  
Old 05-23-2017, 08:01 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Besides showing again your jerkish inability to type a bit of what Harris or others said, tomndeb said "if". You are not grasping basic tings.
I shouldn't even ask, but...what the actual fuck are you gibbering about? Jesus.
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  #622  
Old 05-23-2017, 08:14 AM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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I shouldn't even ask, but...what the actual fuck are you gibbering about? Jesus.
Not surprised that you are projecting your inability to grasp things on others; again, you are ignoring that tomndebb said "if Harris used this example". Indeed that is an option. So he is therefore now not making a point against Harris, but your clarification then makes the idiocy of using that example against peer review to not go to Harris, but to you.
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  #623  
Old 05-23-2017, 09:20 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by Malleus, Incus, Stapes! View Post
And here I was sure SlackerInc would be posting today because of this.
Interesting article. It notes that those genes are just a very small fraction of an unknown number that affect intelligence, but if this is confirmed, it will probably be the first of many such discoveries. And eventually someone will do population studies and find out if prevalence for these genes varies by population, and we'll have real data instead of Rushton/Lynn/Murray-style ass-derived conclusions to look at for questions like this.
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  #624  
Old 05-23-2017, 11:18 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Interesting article. It notes that those genes are just a very small fraction of an unknown number that affect intelligence, but if this is confirmed, it will probably be the first of many such discoveries. And eventually someone will do population studies and find out if prevalence for these genes varies by population, and we'll have real data instead of Rushton/Lynn/Murray-style ass-derived conclusions to look at for questions like this.
I have little doubt that if we comprehensively compared genotypes to studies of intelligence and other forms of mental acuity, we could probably identify not only some alleles that indicate a propensity for intelligence in one form or another, but we would also identify different demographic groups with a propensity for higher or lower academic ability. Whether those genetic difference have a greater or lessor impact than upbringing and environment would still be an unanswered question (IMHO, the majority of one's physical and mental well being is determined by nutrition and social interaction at very young ages.).

And I am of the firm belief that if such a comprehensive study were to be carried out, there would be no overall correlation found between intelligence and skin pigment.
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  #625  
Old 05-23-2017, 12:48 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Not surprised that you are projecting your inability to grasp things on others; again, you are ignoring that tomndebb said "if Harris used this example". Indeed that is an option.


I did not ignore the "if": it was the focus of my point. I was just trying to note that instead of speculating on what Sam was up to, he/she/they could just listen to the short segment and then offer an informed judgment.
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  #626  
Old 05-23-2017, 02:04 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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I did not ignore the "if": it was the focus of my point. I was just trying to note that instead of speculating on what Sam was up to, he/she/they could just listen to the short segment and then offer an informed judgment.
Not my problem that you are looking more foolish here, the point that you are missing is that tomndebb had one option that can be disregarded indeed: what the "if" implied, so that choice is gone: we know now that Sam did not say that foolish thing about peer review.

The other option is the one you are trying to tap dance furiously away and you are not getting out of it: It was you then who brought forward that dumb attempt at disparaging peer review, just admit you did not think that properly.

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  #627  
Old 05-23-2017, 03:03 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Not my problem that you are looking more foolish here, the point that you are missing is that tomndebb had one option that can be disregarded indeed: what the "if" implied, so that choice is gone: we know now that Sam did not say that foolish thing about peer review.

The other option is the one you are trying to tap dance furiously away and you are not getting out of it: It was you then who brought forward that dumb attempt at disparaging peer review, just admit you did not think that properly.
Hoo boy.

I'm not tap dancing away from anything: you lost the plot long ago.

Your great revelation, that it was I and not Sam who used the example to disparage peer review, is nothing I have ever denied. My only point – and I really don't know why you can't understand this — is that tomndebb would not have had to issue a conditional statement starting with i"if", had they just listened for a few minutes to learn for themselves what Sam said, without my having to report on it. Sheesh.
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  #628  
Old 05-23-2017, 03:09 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Hoo boy.

I'm not tap dancing away from anything: you lost the plot long ago.

Your great revelation, that it was I and not Sam who used the example to disparage peer review, is nothing I have ever denied. My only point – and I really don't know why you can't understand this — is that tomndebb would not have had to issue a conditional statement starting with i"if", had they just listened for a few minutes to learn for themselves what Sam said, without my having to report on it. Sheesh.
And if you had spent a few minutes providing an accurate description of what it is that you are talking about, instead of asking others to do homework in order to ferret out the meaning of your posts, you wouldn't need to have this point of yours.

Everyone understands your point, that you want us to listen to this podcast. You don't get the point that we don't want to.
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  #629  
Old 05-23-2017, 03:12 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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Hoo boy.

I'm not tap dancing away from anything: you lost the plot long ago.

Your great revelation, that it was I and not Sam who used the example to disparage peer review, is nothing I have ever denied. My only point – and I really don't know why you can't understand this — is that tomndebb would not have had to issue a conditional statement starting with i"if", had they just listened for a few minutes to learn for themselves what Sam said, without my having to report on it. Sheesh.
Your avoidance of your need to take back your sorry point about peer review is duly noted. And that is what I'm pointing at, when you plant idiotic seeds of doubt about peer review it shows who you really are.
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  #630  
Old 05-23-2017, 04:16 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Everyone understands your point, that you want us to listen to this podcast. You don't get the point that we don't want to.
You don't get the point that I don't give a fuck whether you listen to it or not. I do wish you would refrain from commenting on it if you don't listen, but it's a free country.
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  #631  
Old 05-23-2017, 04:28 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
And that is what I'm pointing at, when you plant idiotic seeds of doubt about peer review it shows who you really are.
Are TIME and Vox also "planting idiotic seeds of doubt"?
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  #632  
Old 05-23-2017, 05:08 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Are TIME and Vox also "planting idiotic seeds of doubt"?
If you knew what I have found and posted many times before in the SDMB regarding climate change you would know that the popular press is not a good place to get science information.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...e-isnt-broken/
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if you follow the headlines, your confidence in science may have taken a hit lately. Peer review? More like self-review. An investigation in November uncovered a scam in which researchers were rubber-stamping their own work, circumventing peer review at five high-profile publishers. Scientific journals? Not exactly a badge of legitimacy, given that the International Journal of Advanced Computer Technology recently accepted for publication a paper titled “Get Me Off Your Fucking Mailing List,” whose text was nothing more than those seven words, repeated over and over for 10 pages. Two other journals allowed an engineer posing as Maggie Simpson and Edna Krabappel to publish a paper, “Fuzzy, Homogeneous Configurations.” Revolutionary findings? Possibly fabricated. In May, a couple of University of California, Berkeley, grad students discovered irregularities in Michael LaCour’s influential paper suggesting that an in-person conversation with a gay person could change how people felt about same-sex marriage. The journal Science retracted the paper shortly after, when LaCour’s co-author could find no record of the data.

Taken together, headlines like these might suggest that science is a shady enterprise that spits out a bunch of dressed-up nonsense. But I’ve spent months investigating the problems hounding science, and I’ve learned that the headline-grabbing cases of misconduct and fraud are mere distractions. The state of our science is strong, but it’s plagued by a universal problem: Science is hard — really fucking hard.
In other discussions about peer review I have seen that a lot of the complains do come from the medical field, and indeed a lot of the examples the article touch are related to it. In any case peer review is not the end of the process, but it magnifies the reach of an idea among researchers. As noted many times, Murray and others are running away from peer review, and that is a big clue that what they peddle is not gonna be accepted until he follows the path.

So yes, there are issues with peer review, but also when I remember the controversies that took place in climate science when deniers managed to publish some papers tells me that one important feature of peer review is that it also uncovers the bullshit journals that allowed trash to be published. So yes, your point was idiotic.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-23-2017 at 05:11 PM..
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  #633  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:25 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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New takedown of Murray/Harris:

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...sponse-critics

They make the same point I do about the Flynn effect, and have the same conclusion -- it's much too early to make any conclusion at all about whether genetics are involved in average test score disparities.
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  #634  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:54 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Shit, I was just about to start a thread based on a subsequent Sam Harris podcast but that will have to wait.

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And because different racial groups differ genetically, to any degree, and because most of what we care about in ourselves — intelligence included — … also has some genetic underpinnings — for many of these traits we’re talking about something like 50 percent — it would be very, very surprising if everything we cared about was tuned to the exact same population average in every racial group. There’s just virtually no way that’s going to be true. So based purely on biological consideration, we should expect that for any variable, there will be differences in the average, its average level, across racial groups that differ genetically to some degree. [55:12]
They quote Sam's point here, one which I find pretty much irrefutable, but then never meaningfully address it.

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Does adoption count as “jack[ing] up artificially the environment”? In our original post, we pointed out that adoption from a poor home to a well-off home is associated with a 12- to 18-point gain in IQ. Other studies have come up with slightly lower figures, but the general direction of the finding is beyond dispute.
Here again we see the slippery cherry picking with only mentioning the environmental correlation and not the biological one which is even stronger.

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we think there is, in fact, good reason to believe that improving children’s environments will improve their cognitive skills.
Murray may dispute this but I don't think Sam would.

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Still, in both the Snyderman and Rothman book and in the more recent survey, more than half of respondents selected one of two response categories that included zero (one option was “0 percent of [black-white] differences due to genes” and the other was “0-40 percent of differences due to genes”).
This is just rank sophistry.

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The IQs of those adopted children are substantially higher than they would have been if they had been raised by their biological parents.
This was in a section far down from the first mention of adoption in which they finally admit the biological parents mattered more. But even this supposed rebuttal only really says that these adoptive children's parents could have given them shitty genes and shitty parenting but, due to giving them up for adoption, only gave them the former.

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That finding suggests that low-income children have fewer opportunities for their genetic potential to flourish.
No shit. Even Murray did not dispute this. He used the analogy of corn plants grown in a desert, for instance.

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This is important, because it undermines the hereditarian argument that twin studies show family environment doesn’t matter for IQ
Egregious straw man. Total bullshit.

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At the same time, our observation — that statistical geneticists could not publish a study that only controlled for self-identified race rather than genetic ancestry as measured from DNA — is certainly true. Controlling for multiple dimensions of ancestry derived from genome-wide genotyping is standard practice in genetic research.
This looks like a valid point. So let's see the studies based on this standard practice!

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I suspect that Khan’s reflexive criticism comes from a place of exasperation with the idea, still in circulation among some social scientists, that race is “just” a social construct or that the racial categories used in the US today are entirely meaningless. I am sympathetic to this objection to pure social constructivism, and we said in our post that lay notions of race are not wrong or useless. Self-reported racial categories, coarse as they are, also generally reflect underlying differences in genetic ancestry.
How many of those subscribed to this thread choked on this part after cheering everything up to this point ?

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The effort to divide Europe’s inhabitants by “blood” is crude, but in one respect, Brigham wasn’t wrong — with modern technology, you could certainly differentiate a person with English ancestry from a person with Italian ancestry. But sometime in the past century, we stopped conceptualizing the differences between the English and the Italians in terms of race. We elevate to the status of “race” the distinctions that are our current political and cultural preoccupations, while eliding others.
Another fair point. I would be very glad for them to talk more specifically about the English versus the Spanish versus the Slavs versus the Congolese, etc.

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If you were persuaded by Murray and Harris’s conclusion that the black-white IQ gap is partially genetic, but uncomfortable with the idea that the same kind of thinking might apply to the personality traits of Jews, I have one question: Why? Couldn’t there just as easily be a science of whether Jews are genetically “tuned to” (Harris’s phrase) different levels of materialism than gentiles?

On the other hand, if you no longer believe this old anti-Semitic trope, is it because some scientific study has been conducted showing that it is false? And if the problem is simply that we haven’t run the studies, why shouldn’t we? Materialism is an important trait in individuals, and plausibly could be an important difference between groups. (Certainly the history of the Jewish people attests to the fact that it has been considered important in groups!) But the horrific recent history of false hypotheses about innate Jewish behavior helps us see how scientifically empty and morally bankrupt such ideas really are.
This was apparently intended to be a reductio ad absurdem which would paralyze me with self-contradiction. But it didn't read that way to me. I don't have any particular objection to the hypothetical research described.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-15-2017 at 03:57 PM..
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  #635  
Old 06-18-2017, 04:54 AM
nachtmusick nachtmusick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
New takedown of Murray/Harris:

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...sponse-critics

They make the same point I do about the Flynn effect, and have the same conclusion -- it's much too early to make any conclusion at all about whether genetics are involved in average test score disparities.
After 20 years it is still much too early.
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  #636  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:25 AM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
How many of those subscribed to this thread choked on this part after cheering everything up to this point ?
Well, thanks a lot for showing all that you are willfully ignoring that that is not the issue that many do have a beef with Murray and Harris. Here is a hint: there are the items that iiandyiiii me and others have made a point of. And even the professors in the cite made.

As it is the point I made that even the writers of the piece iiandyiiii cited also noticed how shifty Harris is, I will have to say that the criticism stands: Harris, as well as Murray, sets so many scape hatches that his ship sinks with little help. Or IOW, might as well consider him as not having an opinion that is meaningful.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 06-18-2017 at 11:25 AM..
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  #637  
Old 06-18-2017, 02:45 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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My criticisms of Harris (and Murray, though my estimates of his intelligence are far lower than of Harris, and thus I hold him to a much lower standard) still stand, and aren't refuted by anything you've posted, SlackerInc that I have seen. Considering how highly you seem to think of his intelligence, you should also hold him to a high standard on issues like this that are so closely tied to the worst oppression and brutality in American history, and he failed to offer any challenge at all to Murray's bullshit (instead focusing on a few shreds of at least slightly accurate science that Murray hangs his hat on). Harris should be ashamed of himself. Doesn't mean he's evil, or stupid, but he still fucked up big time, and I imagine his ego is preventing himself from seeing it and trying to make up for it.
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  #638  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:39 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
My criticisms of Harris (and Murray, though my estimates of his intelligence are far lower than of Harris, and thus I hold him to a much lower standard) still stand, and aren't refuted by anything you've posted, SlackerInc that I have seen. Considering how highly you seem to think of his intelligence, you should also hold him to a high standard on issues like this that are so closely tied to the worst oppression and brutality in American history, and he failed to offer any challenge at all to Murray's bullshit (instead focusing on a few shreds of at least slightly accurate science that Murray hangs his hat on). Harris should be ashamed of himself. Doesn't mean he's evil, or stupid, but he still fucked up big time, and I imagine his ego is preventing himself from seeing it and trying to make up for it.
Your perseverance here has really been something to behold. As for me, I've been down that road (both arguing with Bell Curve enthusiasts and trying to talk sense into SlackerInc.) It's a hazardous path you travel. Godspeed.
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  #639  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:46 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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I think it's interesting how people tried to ding me for not being specific enough earlier. Then in response to these Vox pieces, I have gotten extremely specific, and no one has any specific response. Simply stating that none of my logical points, or evidence I have provided (with citations) refute anything, is not an argument.
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  #640  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:51 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I think it's interesting how people tried to ding me for not being specific enough earlier. Then in response to these Vox pieces, I have gotten extremely specific, and no one has any specific response. Simply stating that none of my logical points, or evidence I have provided (with citations) refute anything, is not an argument.
I didn't address your specific responses because they didn't have anything to do with my specific criticism of Harris and Murray. I did link to that other criticism (though I only mentioned the Flynn effect point and the conclusion, neither of which you responded to), and I appreciate that you took the time to address it, but my earlier specific criticism of Harris and Murray stands. The charitable interpretation, IMO, is that Harris is smart enough to realize he should have challenged Murray, but his ego prevents him from seeing it. The uncharitable interpretation is that he isn't as smart as he (and you) thinks he is.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-18-2017 at 06:51 PM..
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  #641  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:00 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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You vouched for both Vox pieces. Not certain specific points they made, but in toto. So I don't understand how my detailed rebuttal could be irrelevant to your point in posting it.
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  #642  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:06 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I have nothing to say to anyone who refuses to listen to the episode and instead just spouts boilerplate ad hominem. If that means crickets, so be it.
You're doing the equivalent of some racist kid on Reddit asking someone to listen to a conversation between Hermann Göring and Josef Mengele. You're going to get a lot of hateful responses, and few takers.
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  #643  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:08 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
You vouched for both Vox pieces. Not certain specific points they made, but in toto. So I don't understand how my detailed rebuttal could be irrelevant to your point in posting it.
While I appreciate you put some effort into responding to those links, IMO you didn't put much effort into responding to my specific criticisms of Harris. I wish you had. And I'm not sure how linking to something counts as "vouching" for it. I mentioned the points that I thought it reinforced well, but that doesn't mean I agree with every single one.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-18-2017 at 07:09 PM..
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  #644  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:12 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Bolding mine. Fucking cosigned. Murray belongs in the same category as Andrew Wakefield and Peter Duesburg - absolutely terrible pseudoscientists whose main, horribly flawed or dishonest work resulted in the world being a substantially worse place. The fact that he got attacked for going to a university should not by any stretch of the imagination be an excuse to give them more exposure. It should be seen as a reason to ask, "what the fuck is wrong with this university?!"
I would be kinder to Peter Duesberg than that. He's a great scientist with one utterly deadly blind spot.

Andrew Wakefield is a pure fraud, a criminal whose avarice drove his dishonesty.

Murray is probably just another racist true believer trying hard to justify his worldview. He is the enemy, like it or not, whatever his intentions.
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  #645  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:27 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Sam is the most impressive polymath of the modern world (Pinker is up there too). You're a dude on a message board who didn't even believe me when I told him his view differed with Sam's. I know who I'm going to take more seriously--sorry, bud.
Argument from authority, and authority in a fanboy's eyes at that. Invalid.

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But it's a lot harder to dispute that light-skinned, blue-eyed people are a race in a genetic sense (an inbred, extended family). Same goes for East Asians.
Blue eyes are not an ethnic marker in the USA. Even if we treat grey and green eyes as "categories of blue," lots of fair-complected persons have hazel or brown eyes. What is wrong with you?

Last edited by foolsguinea; 06-18-2017 at 07:28 PM..
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  #646  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:39 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
You're doing the equivalent of some racist kid on Reddit asking someone to listen to a conversation between Hermann Göring and Josef Mengele.
That's not hyperbole at all.
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  #647  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:25 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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It's not.
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  #648  
Old 06-18-2017, 09:44 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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You think you're so generous to black people. Treat them like Little Fuzzies, don't expect too much. That is a "soft bigotry of low expectations." And it implies that they are apish, less than human. It is continuous with those in whose eyes half-breed Barack Obama must have been an idiot, because how could you know what you were doing with a half-monkey brain?

Of course, once you're convinced that this is true, that blacks are even below the poor degenerate Irish , then you create an opening for the next twit who comes along and says that white people don't need black people, that we can improve the race and human happiness by eliminating them.

You know and I know that that is utter nonsense. Of course sub-Saharan Africans have useful physical positive adaptations to hotter climates—climates like pretty much the majority of the USA. Any actual genetic "improvement of the race" is not to be found in "purity" but in interbreeding. But here's how the racists will think: If even Ivy League-educated Barack Obama is necessarily an idiot like the guys down at the shop say, what kind of favor would I be doing my children to cut away half their humanity by breeding with a colored person?

And Charles Murray is there to tell them that intelligence is the most important thing! Why take chances mating with an Africanized hybrid of Homo sapiens?

The more we listen to him, the more white people keep sticking to their own kind, and the more likely it is that uppity darkies in politics get shot down as above their station and abilities, or just shot.

And sooner or later, because enough human beings are foolish enough to keep breeding above replacement rate, the blacks and the half-breeds will be the target of ethnic cleansing, in the name of improving the race, but really for Lebensraum. All for some nonsense about white superiority. I know white people; most of them are dumb.

I get where you're coming from. But really, this is in nature if not extremity as I said: A naive kid on the internet referring us to a racist's talk with a racist. It's not hyperbole.

Last edited by foolsguinea; 06-18-2017 at 09:48 PM..
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  #649  
Old 06-18-2017, 10:00 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Oh. And ONE MORE THING!

Your attacks on Snowboarder Bo are ridiculous, considering your insistence that Hillary was electable (no) and Trump was obviously not (well...) and your brilliant plan of voting for Trump to get the nomination because he was sure to lose even against the most hated political family in America (not how general elections actually work).

Bernie would have done better than Hillary simply by not being married to Mr NAFTA, you ridiculous fantasist. Compared to the virtual ream of paper you spent on tearing down the great populist hope, Snowboarder Bo's posts were actually—pretty inoffensive and pretty normal.

You are straining at his gnats and swallowing your camels whole. Remember when the guy you voted for in the primary ended up hiring a Turkish agent for NSA, selling the State Department to oilmen and to Russia, and then criticizing someone over a dubious email server? Yeah, about that proportional difference in credibility. On a smaller and less important scale, mind.

So, really, be glad I'm way on the other side of the state and I don't come over there and throw you in a quarry kick your butt on general principle. Bernie could have won.

Last edited by foolsguinea; 06-18-2017 at 10:04 PM..
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  #650  
Old 06-18-2017, 10:37 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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My god, the Bernheads never give it up. Just don't go on a shooting spree like that Hodgkinson feller, k bud?
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