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  #51  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LoneRhino View Post
I remember noticing this when I was a kid in the late 70's. The teams that kept the same name when they moved (Dodgers, Giants, Braves, A's) were considered a continued history. The teams that changed their names (Senators I & II, Browns, Pilots) were considered different franchises. I don't know if this was official or not.
Not official, as far as I can tell.

The Twins franchise is, from what I can see, considered to be a continuation of the Senators Mk. I franchise (and, apparently, the Kansas City Blues prior to that); similarly, the Rangers are considered to be a continuation of the Senators Mk. II franchise, the Brewers are considered to be a continuation of the Seattle Pilots franchise, the Orioles a continuation of the St. Louis Browns franchise, and the Nationals a continuation of the Montreal Expos franchise.

There have been a small number of examples when a team moved, and was considered, by its league, to be the start of a brand-new team, with no historical connection to its past in its old city / name; the most noteworthy example of this is when the Cleveland Browns moved to Baltimore, and became the Ravens -- as part of the legal settlement between the NFL and the city, the expansion Browns are considered to "own" the historical records of the original franchise.
  #52  
Old 05-22-2019, 01:30 PM
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Nor how to get there.
Golf clap.
  #53  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:23 PM
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Nor how to get there.
Dionne Warwick might have the directions by now.
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  #54  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
The strip is in Paradise. Indeed, that's the whole point to "Paradise."

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_Nevada
I guess that is my point. I did not know that.

So, keeping with the nitpickery, if someone asks where I went on vacation, and I say Las Vegas, should I really say Paradise?

If I went to DisneyWorld, should a person be chided for saying that they were in Orlando and be told that they were really in Lake Buena Vista, FL or most of the time in Bay Lake, FL?

It is customary for close suburbs to nonetheless be considered part of the larger city that they are near.
  #55  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:13 PM
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Nor how to get there.
This made my day, thanks!
  #56  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:30 PM
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CGB Grey Video on Las Vegas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naDCCW5TSpU
(His video on the City of London is great too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c)

Brian
  #57  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:53 PM
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In 1877 the National League’s Hartford Club played all its home games in Brooklyn, while keeping the name “Hartford” or “the Hartfords.”

Modern sources often label the 1876 team the “Hartford Dark Blues” and the 1877 team the “Brooklyn Hartfords,” But that doesn’t really reflect how club names worked back then.
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  #58  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:04 PM
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I'm pretty certain that the officially-sanctioned fiction of franchise history being left behind when a team moves started with the Browns-Ravens change/move.
When the St. Louis Browns moved to Baltimore, the new owners left all the Brownie history. No more George Sisler hitting .424. No more Pete Grey, the one-armed outfielder. No more Eddie Gaedel, the 3'6" pinch-hitter (once.) The Browns history is kept alive by the Cardinals.
  #59  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
There have been a small number of examples when a team moved, and was considered, by its league, to be the start of a brand-new team, with no historical connection to its past in its old city / name; the most noteworthy example of this is when the Cleveland Browns moved to Baltimore, and became the Ravens -- as part of the legal settlement between the NFL and the city, the expansion Browns are considered to "own" the historical records of the original franchise.
Wasn't that also the case when the Houston Oilers became the Tennessee Titans?
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:35 PM
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Wasn't that also the case when the Houston Oilers became the Tennessee Titans?
No, the Oilers are part of the Titans' history, and the NFL retired the "Oilers" nickname, thereby preventing the expansion Houston Texans from naming themselves the Oilers.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:38 AM
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No, the Oilers are part of the Titans' history, and the NFL retired the "Oilers" nickname, thereby preventing the expansion Houston Texans from naming themselves the Oilers.
Reading up on it, they even spent two seasons as the Tennessee Oilers, which I didn't remember at all.
  #62  
Old 05-23-2019, 06:25 AM
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When the St. Louis Browns moved to Baltimore, the new owners left all the Brownie history. No more George Sisler hitting .424. No more Pete Grey, the one-armed outfielder. No more Eddie Gaedel, the 3'6" pinch-hitter (once.) The Browns history is kept alive by the Cardinals.
ISTR the 'team photo' baseball cards, which had team records on the back, had Browns and Orioles All Time Leaders as a heading. Senators/Twins were similar. I don't think the Topps company had their own records division, but used what MLB supplied them.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:45 AM
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No, the Oilers are part of the Titans' history, and the NFL retired the "Oilers" nickname, thereby preventing the expansion Houston Texans from naming themselves the Oilers.
Which is totally stupid, considering that the Ravens didn't get to retain the Browns' history and name, etc...

In the long run, it's probably better that the Houston franchise not be saddled with the history and underachievement of the Oilers....
  #64  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:49 PM
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Which is totally stupid, considering that the Ravens didn't get to retain the Browns' history and name, etc...
Cleveland threatened to sue the "Ravens"/NFL. Part of the negotiated settlement was that Cleveland was promised an expansion team which would "own" the history and colors of the old Cleveland Browns. Presumably Houston and the NFL had a different (or no particular) settlement.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:40 PM
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Cleveland threatened to sue the "Ravens"/NFL. Part of the negotiated settlement was that Cleveland was promised an expansion team which would "own" the history and colors of the old Cleveland Browns. Presumably Houston and the NFL had a different (or no particular) settlement.
My guess would be because the owner of the Oilers managed to totally piss off Houston-both the city officials and the populace by essentially holding them hostage through a threat to move the team if they didn't perform substantial upgrades to the Astrodome in 1988. Which they acquiesced to, only to have Adams see how the Chargers made out in their move, and for him to come back in 1994, barely six years later asking for nearly $200 million to build a new stadium, at the same time that the team had a nearly historically bad 2-14 season.

The Houston mayor at the time basically told him to stick his proposal up his ass and that if he wanted to move the team, to not let the door hit him in the ass on the way out, and public opinion was firmly alongside the mayor. So Adams left, but for some weird reason, announced it nearly 2 seasons before they actually did move. The Oilers had a really bizarre pair of lame duck seasons (1995 and 1996) where they had crowds in the 35,000 range and lower (last game was only 15,000!)

So I'm not at all surprised that the city didn't sue the Oilers/Adams for the rights.

Last edited by bump; 05-23-2019 at 03:40 PM.
  #66  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:24 PM
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I'm not the OP, but I think these examples are just nitpickery. I mean, you can almost throw a stone from the Las Vegas Strip and hit the arena where the hockey team plays. When I read the OP, I was thinking we would get examples like he/she posted where a team was significantly outside of its named city, not just where a team built a stadium that was technically outside the city limits because that is where the best land could be found.

This is exactly what I was looking for. Now, the Jets/Giants thing is an anomaly I get MetLife Stadium is about 5-7 miles from New York City, but they still retain the New York monicker and are in a completely different state!

As for temporary moves ie the NY Giants playing in Connecticut, the New Orleans teams playing out of state after Katrina and the Bears playing in central Illinois, these were during stadium renovations and repairs with the city’s namesake having every intention of returning. I don’t count these.

I forgot to mention a unique situation going on here. For three years the Philadelphia Union had a farm team, Bethlehem Steel FC, play in Bethlehem PA. The USL, American soccers second division, declared the stadium wasn’t up to USL standards. The Union have vowed to return the Bethlehem area, but for 2019 the BSFC are playing home games at the Union’s home stadium in Chester, PA, about 60-70 miles away.




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  #67  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:41 PM
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This is exactly what I was looking for. Now, the Jets/Giants thing is an anomaly I get MetLife Stadium is about 5-7 miles from New York City, but they still retain the New York monicker and are in a completely different state!
I've never understood the whole "But they're in a different state!" shock. The Redskins play in Maryland, a similar distance away from DC as the Jets and Giants are from NY, but nobody ever exclaims "They're in a different state!" with an exclamation mark or refers to them as the "Maryland Redskins." It just seems weird to me.
  #68  
Old 05-26-2019, 12:47 AM
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- Los Angeles Chargers (currently playing in Carson, just outside LA county limits, but about 15 miles from downtown LA)
Carson is indeed in LA County, but in any case the Chargers will be moving to Los Angeles Stadium at Hollywood Park (still under construction), which they'll share with the Rams--and which is not in Hollywood, and not even in L.A. (city), but rather in Inglewood, also home of the Forum, where the Lakers and the Kings once played.
  #69  
Old 05-26-2019, 09:28 AM
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I've never understood the whole "But they're in a different state!" shock. The Redskins play in Maryland, a similar distance away from DC as the Jets and Giants are from NY, but nobody ever exclaims "They're in a different state!" with an exclamation mark or refers to them as the "Maryland Redskins." It just seems weird to me.
Yes, a city or a metropolitan area or a conurbation is a natural unit. But state and municipal boundaries are arbitrary. There's nothing about the boundary between the State of New York and the State of New Jersey that is meaningful to culture. But there is a difference between the New York conurbation and the Philadelphia conurbation.
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  #70  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:02 PM
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I've never understood the whole "But they're in a different state!" shock. The Redskins play in Maryland, a similar distance away from DC as the Jets and Giants are from NY, but nobody ever exclaims "They're in a different state!" with an exclamation mark or refers to them as the "Maryland Redskins." It just seems weird to me.

I think this became an issue back when Gov Whitman was the NJ Governor. New Jersey funded the original Giants Stadium and no one minded the Giants were the “New York” Giants but they at least took the “ NY” off their helmets. Then, they put the NY on it and I remember she was a little red-assed about it.


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