Jefferson was a real shitheel.

[jtgain]

I've always been fascinated by Jefferson. We all know his good deeds and this thread is not to detract from that. But I am looking for information about his bad character traits.

Yes, we know he said that all men were created equal while keeping people in bondage.

I'm more interested in some of his other bad traits. Debts, secret children with Sally Hemmings, hypocracy etc. Any links with good reads would be appreciated.

[Little Nemo]

He was an ivory tower intellectual. And then when he was placed in a real world situation, he found himself unable to live within the principles he espoused. So he went outside his principles but never acknowledged that he was doing so. He was one of the first great hypocrites of American politics.

[astro]

I believe he said bad stuff 'bout the Mets.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

I'm not sure you can say that Florence was really "in bondage" to Jefferson, even though she would on occasion intimate otherwise. As far as any aspersions on his character, I might offer that he was only able to finance his financial empire after winning a civil suit regarding a personal injury and being awarded a considerable sum. Using the court system in this way is the very reason we have "ambulance chasers" - a most distasteful profession. It was legal, however, and with the proceeds Jefferson was able to open his first dry cleaning operation.

[MLS]

Fawn Brodie's Thomas Jefferson: An Intimate History is a good starting point. Along with the story of Sally Hemings, Brodie describes many other of his good and bad traits. There is no doubt he was highly intelligent. Yet he seems to have been completely unable to live within, or even close to, his mean.

[carnut]

I'm surprised this isn't in IMHO. It's not mundane or pointless.

[jtgain]

Originally Posted by MLS

Fawn Brodie's Thomas Jefferson: An Intimate History is a good starting point. Along with the story of Sally Hemings, Brodie describes many other of his good and bad traits. There is no doubt he was highly intelligent. Yet he seems to have been completely unable to live within, or even close to, his mean.

Ordered. To be delivered Wednesday...

[NotBob13]

This cracked.com article makes the case that he had Asperger's syndrome. He's #3 on the list. It list some of his more peculiar traits as evidence.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19552...ake-sense.html

[Lochdale]

Isn't the Sally Hemmings debate still ongoing? It could have been Jefferson or it could have been a Jefferson.

Regardless, he was a titan of his age but flawed. In other words he was human.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by MLS

Yet he seems to have been completely unable to live within, or even close to, his mean.

I've read Jefferson's finances were pretty usual for a Southern Plantation owner at the time. Most of them were heavily leveraged, and basically planned around their assets being liquidated to pay their debts upon their deaths. Washington spent the first half of his life living beyond his means as well, though he managed to get back in the black when he received a large inheritence.


IIRC, Jefferson's leadership of the VA militia was pretty lackluster.

[CalMeacham]

Jefferson is fascinating and frustrating. The guy was undoubtedly brilliant, a voracious reader, and interested in a host of subjects. He invented writing deskd, leaning chairs, and measuring devices. He wrote beautifully. He espoused great ideals about liberty and government.

On the other hand, he didn't treat his slaves like people, evidently had that affair with Hemings, didn't free his slaves (who mostly had to be sold at his death to pay his debts). He msade a mess of his term as governor of Virginia during the Revolution. He worked to undermine Adams during his presidency. During his own presidency he did things that seem outrageously against the highfalutin' democratic principles he espoused. His passage of the Mbargo Act created an incredible mess, hurt the country economically, and turned the Northeast against him.


Half the time I want to admire him and half the time I want to kick him. a genuine intellectual who gave us the Declaration of Independence, the University of Virginia, decimal currency, the Louisiana Purchase, and a raft of other things, but who (as notred above) was sometimes unable to put into practice his ideas and could act in ways totally opposed to his philosophy.

[johnpost]

cut the guy some slack. the country needed another famous forefather name for things and he got picked. everything couldn't be named after Washington. Franklin was too nerdy and bald. Adams, well it would be too confusing with Adam.

[Hello Again]

I mean, look at Hamilton.

Killed in a duel, that had to take place in New Jersey, because of a New York law forbidding duels, that Hamilton wrote, and was prompted by the fact that his son died in a duel. Apparently he thought dueling was wrong and horrible, except when it came to a fellow name of Aaron Burr, who he thought needed killing.

Sometimes people just gonna do, what they gonna do. They were men, not gods.

Back to the OP, I have a copy of American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson on my to-read pile.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Lochdale

Isn't the Sally Hemmings debate still ongoing? It could have been Jefferson or it could have been a Jefferson.

Regardless, he was a titan of his age but flawed. In other words he was human.

It was surely Tommy Jefferson based on other circumstantial evidence. Most people don't picture his relationship with Sally Hemmings the right way. She wasn't a field slave that he simply used as a sex object. Sally was his sister-in-law through his deceased former wife and she was only 1/4 black. They had a concubine relationship that might have been a legal marriage if not for their differences in social status. Their resulting kids were only 1/8th black and Jefferson freed them as they became of age. It was a less than ideal situation for all involved but perfectly understandable based on the laws and social expectations of the day.

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by A Monkey With a Gun

I'm not sure you can say that Florence was really "in bondage" to Jefferson, even though she would on occasion intimate otherwise. As far as any aspersions on his character, I might offer that he was only able to finance his financial empire after winning a civil suit regarding a personal injury and being awarded a considerable sum. Using the court system in this way is the very reason we have "ambulance chasers" - a most distasteful profession. It was legal, however, and with the proceeds Jefferson was able to open his first dry cleaning operation.

His bigotry was never on display as much as when he was forced to associate w/ the kind but mixed-race couple who lived nearby. Their single fault being they were not of the same race, their lovely and intelligent daughter was still unwelcome in Jefferson's home though she loved his son unceasingly and bore his child. That small child was the only one spared the brutal words and ugly prejudice Jefferson could not contain and all around him bore w/ great humor. Not even a local diplomatic emissary was immune to Jefferson's rages and chicanery.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by jtgain

I've always been fascinated by Jefferson.

I was never impressed with his de-luxe apartment in the sky.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by astro

I believe he said bad stuff 'bout the Mets.

I think Weezy should have kicked his ass some more, but it was likely that she didn't want to give up that deluxe apartment in the sky and have George hook up with Flo (or, worse, Helen Willis).

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Hello Again

I mean, look at Hamilton.

Killed in a duel, that had to take place in New Jersey, because of a New York law forbidding duels, that Hamilton wrote, and was prompted by the fact that his son died in a duel. Apparently he thought dueling was wrong and horrible, except when it came to a fellow name of Aaron Burr, who he thought needed killing.

In Hamilton's defense, Burr did need killing.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

Not even a local diplomatic emissary was immune to Jefferson's rages and chicanery.

Is your whole passage a quote from somewhere? If not, can you provide some context? For instance, who is the "local diplomatic emissary" and what "rages and chicanery" was that person exposed to?

[Chimera]

I have this odd feeling we're talking about two different Jeffersons, but I can't quite place my finger on where the differences lie.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

In Hamilton's defense, Burr did need killing.

And in Burr's defense, Hamilton could have used a little killing as well.

The Burr-Hamilton duel resulted in one combatant dying and one combatant being disgraced. The winner was American politics which was improved by the removal of both of them.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by WordMan

Is your whole passage a quote from somewhere? If not, can you provide some context? For instance, who is the "local diplomatic emissary" and what "rages and chicanery" was that person exposed to?

Maybe this is a whoosh but if not, here.

[jtgain]

Originally Posted by CalMeacham

Jefferson is fascinating and frustrating. The guy was undoubtedly brilliant, a voracious reader, and interested in a host of subjects. He invented writing deskd, leaning chairs, and measuring devices. He wrote beautifully. He espoused great ideals about liberty and government.

On the other hand, he didn't treat his slaves like people, evidently had that affair with Hemings, didn't free his slaves (who mostly had to be sold at his death to pay his debts). He msade a mess of his term as governor of Virginia during the Revolution. He worked to undermine Adams during his presidency. During his own presidency he did things that seem outrageously against the highfalutin' democratic principles he espoused. His passage of the Mbargo Act created an incredible mess, hurt the country economically, and turned the Northeast against him.


Half the time I want to admire him and half the time I want to kick him. a genuine intellectual who gave us the Declaration of Independence, the University of Virginia, decimal currency, the Louisiana Purchase, and a raft of other things, but who (as notred above) was sometimes unable to put into practice his ideas and could act in ways totally opposed to his philosophy.

That's why I'm fascinated by him. I'm not as brilliant as Jefferson, but smarter than average. I'm not as flawed as Jefferson, yet flawed.

My Dad was intrigued by him for the same reasons.

[Revtim]

If you're a religious Christian, you might not like his "Jefferson Bible", where he cut out all the supernatural stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

[tdn]

Good looking guy, but he never should have married Marcy. No wonder he was a member of No Ma'am.

[CalMeacham]

Originally Posted by Revtim

If you're a religious Christian, you might not like his "Jefferson Bible", where he cut out all the supernatural stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

When I visited the Smithsonian last month, there was an exhibit devoted entirely to this, the Jeffersion Bible. I'd heard of it, but never seen it. Did you know that for years they handed out free copies of it to incoming legislators? For all I know, they still do. I'll bet THAT annoys the hell out of some of the more fundamehntalist members.

[Ellen Cherry]

Moving from MPSIMS to IMHO.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Ellen Cherry

Moving from MPSIMS to IMHO.

My, you're busy this morning!

[orcenio]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

And in Burr's defense, Hamilton could have used a little killing as well.

The Burr-Hamilton duel resulted in one combatant dying and one combatant being disgraced. The winner was American politics which was improved by the removal of both of them.

You gotta be kidding me? Alexander Hamilton was a self made man and straight up OG!

[jtgain]

Originally Posted by Revtim

If you're a religious Christian, you might not like his "Jefferson Bible", where he cut out all the supernatural stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Meh, that was just one of his quirks. He obviously believed in a higher power with his "creator" talk in the DOI. But he seemed to hate organized religion.

I heard a story once that on his deathbed (and I'm making up the preacher's name) that a friend asked if he would like Reverend Smith to come and visit. Jefferson replied that he would be happy to see his good friend, Mr. Smith. The implication was clear that he wanted to see the man, but not in his capacity as a preacher.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by jtgain

Meh, that was just one of his quirks. He obviously believed in a higher power with his "creator" talk in the DOI. But he seemed to hate organized religion.

I heard a story once that on his deathbed (and I'm making up the preacher's name) that a friend asked if he would like Reverend Smith to come and visit. Jefferson replied that he would be happy to see his good friend, Mr. Smith. The implication was clear that he wanted to see the man, but not in his capacity as a preacher.

I think its more then just being against "organized religion". He believed in a vague "higher power", but not in the divinity of Christ, or any sort of supernatural miracle, or in the Bible as any sort of revealed truth. So a deist, but not a Christian in any sort of usual sense.

[jtgain]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

I think its more then just being against "organized religion". He believed in a vague "higher power", but not in the divinity of Christ, or any sort of supernatural miracle, or in the Bible as any sort of revealed truth. So a deist, but not a Christian in any sort of usual sense.

Very true. However he struggled with Christianity. He talked about the Book of Revelation as the "ravings of a lunatic." He obviously felt that Jesus' teachings were worthwhile. All of that adds to the complexity.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

I think its more then just being against "organized religion". He believed in a vague "higher power", but not in the divinity of Christ, or any sort of supernatural miracle, or in the Bible as any sort of revealed truth. So a deist, but not a Christian in any sort of usual sense.

Well, to be fair, if he denied that there was a creator, he would no longer qualify to be a Freemason.

[Orionizer]

Originally Posted by A Monkey With a Gun

I'm not sure you can say that Florence was really "in bondage" to Jefferson, even though she would on occasion intimate otherwise. As far as any aspersions on his character, I might offer that he was only able to finance his financial empire after winning a civil suit regarding a personal injury and being awarded a considerable sum. Using the court system in this way is the very reason we have "ambulance chasers" - a most distasteful profession. It was legal, however, and with the proceeds Jefferson was able to open his first dry cleaning operation.

I about spit my drink all over my monitor on that last sentence...

[Ellen Cherry]

Originally Posted by tdn

My, you're busy this morning!

Tell me about it. These threads are heavy, too!

[Deeg]

I find Jefferson incredibly annoying, in part because modern ideologues put him on such a high pedestal and ignore his faults. As already noted he was by far the most hypocritical of the FFs. To wit:

- Jefferson wrote many papers deploring slavery; the Declaration of Independence rails against the slavery pushed on the American colonies by King George. And yet he never made any practical effort to get rid of it, including freeing his own slaves. (Caveat: I believe he freed two(?) slaves near his death.)

- He eviscerated Adams as president for violating the US Constitution and plotted his downfall (he also plotted against Washington). Yet, as president, he supported acts which privately he considered to be unconstitional, like the the Louisiana Purchase.

- He is largely responsible for starting dirty politics at the Federal level, both during the presidency and when campaigning. He paid an unscrupulous newspaper to print lies about Adams during the 1800 elections.

- He had many brilliant ideas but also some whacko ones. He supported the French Revolution, even after the Reign of Terror. He opined to Madison that the constitution should be thrown out every 19 years to be replaced by a new one.

- Near the end of his life he tried to convince the Virginia government to run a form of lottery to help him pay his debts.

Originally Posted by Hello Again

Back to the OP, I have a copy of American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson on my to-read pile.

This book gets my recommendation.

[Trinopus]

I recently read Teddy Roosevelt's "Naval History of the War of 1812." He is harsh to Jefferson for not having built up the Navy, especially when it was obvious that the young United States was not going to be able to avoid war. John Addams, at least, built the six frigates that served so well (another great book is Ian Toll's "Six Frigates: the Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy.") Roosevelt emphasizes how very well the U.S. did, in naval battles at least, with those six frigates...and not a whole lot more.

[Lochdale]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

It was surely Tommy Jefferson based on other circumstantial evidence. Most people don't picture his relationship with Sally Hemmings the right way. She wasn't a field slave that he simply used as a sex object. Sally was his sister-in-law through his deceased former wife and she was only 1/4 black. They had a concubine relationship that might have been a legal marriage if not for their differences in social status. Their resulting kids were only 1/8th black and Jefferson freed them as they became of age. It was a less than ideal situation for all involved but perfectly understandable based on the laws and social expectations of the day.

She was only 1/4 black? I'd call her white then. I know back then she would be considered black but they were idiots. Sorry, rant over.

[monstro]

I say being a slave back in those times and having kids born into slavery pretty much disqualifies you as "white", in a political sense.

Yes, Jefferson was a fuck-up. A fuck-up with some good ideas, but still someone you wouldn't want to hang around with if you were a negro. His "Notes on Virginia" is pretty clear evidence of this. He couldn't even give Benjamin Banneker or Phyllis Wheatley any props. Even if they were hacks, but he could have at least conceded that there might be exceptions to his "blacks are souless animals" theory. I mean, if a cow presented me with a working clock that she'd built with her own hooves, I'm hoping I would stop eating steak and hamburgers. Or at least publish an addendum to my paper entitled "Cows are Inferior Animals so Let's Eat Them!"

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by jtgain

I've always been fascinated by Jefferson. We all know his good deeds and this thread is not to detract from that. But I am looking for information about his bad character traits.

Yes, we know he said that all men were created equal while keeping people in bondage.

I'm more interested in some of his other bad traits. Debts, secret children with Sally Hemmings, hypocracy etc. Any links with good reads would be appreciated.

Slavery is bad. Ohh, what a brave viewpoint to take in the 21st century.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Slavery is bad. Ohh, what a brave viewpoint to take in the 21st century.

Are you arguing the point? Or are you mocking somebody for having an opinion you also have?

[Lochdale]

Originally Posted by monstro

I say being a slave back in those times and having kids born into slavery pretty much disqualifies you as "white", in a political sense.

Yes, Jefferson was a fuck-up. A fuck-up with some good ideas, but still someone you wouldn't want to hang around with if you were a negro. His "Notes on Virginia" is pretty clear evidence of this. He couldn't even give Benjamin Banneker or Phyllis Wheatley any props. Even if they were hacks, but he could have at least conceded that there might be exceptions to his "blacks are souless animals" theory. I mean, if a cow presented me with a working clock that she'd built with her own hooves, I'm hoping I would stop eating steak and hamburgers. Or at least publish an addendum to my paper entitled "Cows are Inferior Animals so Let's Eat Them!"

Agreed but it's nonsensical and should be mocked accordingly along with its adherents. That being said, Jefferson was in fairness a giant of a man. He was more than just someone with some good ideas. He was an architect of one of the most successful civilizations in human history.