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  #51  
Old 06-20-2013, 03:15 AM
gkster gkster is online now
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Funny NY Times article about Alison Arngrim / Nellie Oleson:

"“Little House,” Ms. Arngrim and her snotty character remain so popular in France that she spends up to three months a year touring there. “It’s similar to David Hasselhoff and Germany,” she said. “They don’t think Nellie is mean. They just think she’s French.”"

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/06/16...r-to-icon.html
  #52  
Old 11-20-2017, 09:55 PM
gkster gkster is online now
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Originally Posted by Hello Again View Post
Lots of people move their families around a lot. But I think in the cold light of adulthood you'll find that Pa moved the family for idiotic, selfish reasons every time. We had a thread called something like "Wasn't Pa Kind of a Fuck-up?" a few years ago but I haven't been able to locate it.
There's a new Laura Ingalls Wilder bio, PRAIRIE FIRES: The American Dreams of Laura Ingalls Wilder by Caroline Fraser.
Reading a review of it in the NY Times, I found these paragraphs which reminded me of this thread:

"What destroyed Charles Ingalls’s dream? Did the market steal rewards from farmers with falling crop prices? Was it simply that rainfall would rarely suffice for their farming methods, with seasons of adequate rain giving rise to hopes that droughts then knocked for a loop? Did the federal government make false promises? Were American cultural ideals — particularly the sanctification of self-sufficient yeoman farmers — at fault? Or did individuals simply make ill-considered choices and cause their own troubles?

“There was blame to go around,” Fraser writes of the troubled relationship between [Laura Ingalls] Wilder and [daughter Rose Wilder] Lane. The same assessment surely applies to the conundrum of pioneer failure. In some of the book’s most thought-provoking reflections, Fraser lays out the choice the two women faced. Could the descendants of fiddle-playing, spirit-lifting, steady and kind Charles Ingalls write a forthright appraisal of his poor judgment in betting his family’s fortunes on risky prospects? Letting Pa off the hook and blaming the government was unmistakably the preferable option."

Link:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/b...ne-fraser.html
  #53  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:20 PM
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Read that article today; asked for the book for Christmas.
  #54  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:59 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Please let me jump in here. I'm also a Wilder fan.

Some thoughts:

1. I don't think Laura and her mother were very close. As was stated above Laura and her disagreed a lot. Laura didn't attend either of her parents funerals.

2. She might not have been close to Mary either seeing when the parents died Mary went to live with her other sisters.

3. In one book Rose talks about Pa and Ma. She says she only saw Pa play his fiddle one time and that was the day her parents left Desmet for good and he gave the fiddle to Laura as a parting gift. In fact by that time Pa worked all day and Rose only saw him in passing when he came home and went out to do his chores. She was around Ma a lot because Ma and Mary would watch Rose all day while Laura worked sewing shirts. Sadly though by that time Ma was a tired, broken woman with little energy for a granddaughter.

4. Laura was 50 before she started making real money as an author.

5. On racism. Remember how in "Little House" Pa tells Laura then when they get to Indian territory she could see a "Papoose"? Well there is a similar story of when Rose was in Florida and Laura tells Rose she will see a "Pickanilly". In "The Long Winter" there is the story of the indian coming into a store to warn the whites of the impending winter. Well that didn't happen. Almonzo writes Later that Indians didn't come into town and the whole thing was just put in by Laura.

6. On "The Long Winter". Later on after Laura had become famous her and Almanzo drove up to Desmet for a founders day event and at that if you had survived that winter the town gave you a special distinction. A medal saying "The Long Winter". Oh, I don't know where it is but a man actually recreated the 20 mile journey where Almonzo and Cap went out on sleighs looking for wheat.

7. I'm from South Dakota about 200 miles northwest of Desmet and that area has always been known for bad winters. My grandmother has seen snow every month of the year except August. Near there farm is a community area where they have moved many old, historical buildings and they have a cabin that Grace once lived in.

8. Rose wrote a lot of her mothers books or at least heavily edited them. You see, Laura could not type. Laura would write out chapter after chapter and send them to Rose for typing up and editing and then they would write back and forth to each other. Rose by then was an accomplished writer and knew what editors and readers wanted.

Just some random musings.
  #55  
Old 11-21-2017, 05:24 PM
gkster gkster is online now
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Another interesting (and long) article about Laura Ingalls Wilder; this one focuses on the Great Depression and its effects on her and her daughter Rose Wilder Lane

http://www.semopress.com/laura-ingal...e-house-novel/
  #56  
Old 11-21-2017, 06:45 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is online now
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Have modern genealogists researched the Ingalls family?

Civil War rosters are available. I've seen them used on Who Do You Think You Are . It was Ashley Judd's ancestor. They told her the Kentucky unit that he served in. He was captured and a POW for 6 months. Released. Rejoined his unit and then wounded. Had a leg amputated and then was a POW again.

The Ingalls information is out there that a genealogist can research.

I'd love to read any research that's published online.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-21-2017 at 06:50 PM.
  #57  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:15 PM
Dendarii Dame Dendarii Dame is offline
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Originally Posted by apollonia View Post
No, I think when Pa is gone to work on the railroad during the winter on Plum Creek, Ma uses the rope to go take care of the stock. Although she is extremely adamant that they are not to come after her no matter how long she is gone.
Correct about Ma using the rope on Plum Creek. Pa actually worked on a farm that was far enough south that the locust swarm didn't reach it.
  #58  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:20 AM
gkster gkster is online now
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
Have modern genealogists researched the Ingalls family?

Civil War rosters are available.
I don't know about research on the Civil War rosters, but Laura and Charles Ingalls were Mayflower descendants, of Richard Warren. Here's the line of descent:
Laura Ingalls Wilder → Charles Ingalls → Lansford Ingalls → Margaret Delano → Jonathan Delano → Jabez Delano → Jonathan Delano → Mercy Warren → Nathaniel Warren → RICHARD WARREN

Laura was a 7th cousin of FDR, whose policies she and Almanzo hated. (Their common ancestor is Mercy Warren) From the article linked above, in post 55:
"It did not take long at Rocky Ridge [their Missouri farm] for “Roosevelt” to become a dirty word. In one memorable episode in family folklore, Almanzo Wilder ran a federal farm agent off his property when the man dropped by to talk about new production quotas that Congress had enacted. The 81‑year‑old farmer yelled at the government man to “get the hell” off his land “and if you’re on it when I get to my gun, by God I’ll fill you with buckshot.”

Here's a family tree with links: https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/I...-Family-Tree-1

Last edited by gkster; 11-22-2017 at 12:21 AM.
  #59  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:47 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is online now
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Awesome. I'll check out the family tree.
Thank you
  #60  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:56 AM
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Laura was also a cousin of Ulysses S. Grant, Alan Shepard, and, more distantly, of Richard Gere:

Ulysses S. Grant → Jesse Grant → Noah Grant → Susanna Delano → Jonathan Delano → Mercy Warren → Nathaniel Warren → RICHARD WARREN

Alan B. Shepard, Jr. → Alan B. Shepard → Frederick Shepard → Rosina Johnson → Abner Johnson → Anna Delano → Silvanus Delano → Jonathan Delano → Mercy Warren → Nathaniel Warren → RICHARD WARREN

Richard Gere → Homer Gere → Albert Gere → George Gere → Sarah Tewksbury → Lucina Fuller → Consider Fuller → Maria Ryder → Mary Sylvester → Hannah Bartlett → Joseph Bartlett → Mary Warren → RICHARD WARREN

http://mayflowerhistory.com/famous-descendants/


And post 7 on page 1 mentions one Civil War connection (though the link is broken)
In Little House in the Big Woods, there's "Uncle George" Ingalls who is supposed to have run away to serve as a drummer boy and has come back "wild", scary--at a family dance Laura is afraid of his crazy behavior, maybe he has PTSD. This site gives quotes from the book, her memoir and some commentary:

"Uncle George was the one Laura was afraid of in "Little House in the Big Woods" because everyone said he was a 'wild man.' "Uncle George had run away to be a drummer boy in the army, when he was fourteen years old," Laura said. In "Pioneer Girl," her unpublished memoirs, she added, "Afterward Uncle George stole a cow and was arrested... Pa said, What could you expect of a boy who had joined the army when he was fourteen, and lived off the country all those years? In the South, when the Union soldiers wanted anything they just took it, and George had got used to that way of doing. All that was wrong with George was that he couldn't seem to realize the war was over and that he was in the North, where he couldn't live off the country any more."Civil War service records from Ancestry.com also indicate that George may have deserted the army. The enlistment information matches, but his middle initial is given as "A"."
http://www.dahoudek.com/LIW/family/aqwg06.aspx (scroll down to "George Whiting Ingalls")
  #61  
Old 11-22-2017, 01:07 AM
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This is Laura's maternal uncle, killed at Shiloh, mentioned on p 1:
Died of battle wounds sustained 6 Apr 1862 in Shiloh, Tennessee.

Joseph Carpenter Quiner was listed as "Private Joseph C. Quinn" of Company B of the 16th Wisconsin Infantry, Section: Unknonw, Grave Number: Unknown of Shiloh National Cemetery, Pittsburg Landing, Tennessee

Initial interment site as recorded in Roll of Honor Volume XX, 1869: Savannah, Tennessee.

Watertown Republican Newspaper (abbreviated Wttn Rep) May 16, 1862

In the personal column: We understand that Joseph Quiner, of Concord, a member of company B, 16th regiment from this state, died in the hospital at Savannah, Tenn., April 28th, from wounds received at the battle of Shiloh.


https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Quiner-4
  #62  
Old 11-22-2017, 01:34 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Please let me jump in here. I'm also a Wilder fan.

Some thoughts:

1. I don't think Laura and her mother were very close. As was stated above Laura and her disagreed a lot. Laura didn't attend either of her parents funerals.

2. She might not have been close to Mary either seeing when the parents died Mary went to live with her other sisters.

3. In one book Rose talks about Pa and Ma. She says she only saw Pa play his fiddle one time and that was the day her parents left Desmet for good and he gave the fiddle to Laura as a parting gift. In fact by that time Pa worked all day and Rose only saw him in passing when he came home and went out to do his chores. She was around Ma a lot because Ma and Mary would watch Rose all day while Laura worked sewing shirts. Sadly though by that time Ma was a tired, broken woman with little energy for a granddaughter.

4. Laura was 50 before she started making real money as an author.

5. On racism. Remember how in "Little House" Pa tells Laura then when they get to Indian territory she could see a "Papoose"? Well there is a similar story of when Rose was in Florida and Laura tells Rose she will see a "Pickanilly". In "The Long Winter" there is the story of the indian coming into a store to warn the whites of the impending winter. Well that didn't happen. Almonzo writes Later that Indians didn't come into town and the whole thing was just put in by Laura.

6. On "The Long Winter". Later on after Laura had become famous her and Almanzo drove up to Desmet for a founders day event and at that if you had survived that winter the town gave you a special distinction. A medal saying "The Long Winter". Oh, I don't know where it is but a man actually recreated the 20 mile journey where Almonzo and Cap went out on sleighs looking for wheat.

7. I'm from South Dakota about 200 miles northwest of Desmet and that area has always been known for bad winters. My grandmother has seen snow every month of the year except August. Near there farm is a community area where they have moved many old, historical buildings and they have a cabin that Grace once lived in.

8. Rose wrote a lot of her mothers books or at least heavily edited them. You see, Laura could not type. Laura would write out chapter after chapter and send them to Rose for typing up and editing and then they would write back and forth to each other. Rose by then was an accomplished writer and knew what editors and readers wanted.

Just some random musings.
Well, actually...

1. Laura did indeed return in time for her father’s death in 1902. Charles had a heart condition and lingered awhile. Caroline Ingalls died rather suddenly, and Laura lived 600 miles away.

2. Mary was devastated by the death of their mother and never really recovered. Both Carrie and Grace lived in South Dakota and had been able to visit often. Why would Mary want to move 600 miles to live in unfamiliar territory?

4. Actually, Laura was 65 when her first book was published.

5. On racism: Please remember that these people were products of their time. While today it would be racist to tell a child she might see a “papoose,” it was not considered inappropriate at that time. Caroline Fraser says Laura once remarked that had she been an Indian, she would have continued killing white people rather than leave her rightful territory. As Fraser says, that’s quite a statement from a woman in that time and culture.

When did Almanzo write this ? He was not a keen letter writer and never wrote an article or book. From the time I first read The Long Winter, I suspected the Indian (probably Sioux) was a fictional character. However, Rose Wilder Lane was prone to invent people and events for “color.” It’s more likely she added this bit of foreshadowing. As a child, I was fascinated by the Black doctor who saved the Ingalls family when they had malaria. Blacks were seldom mentioned in accounts of life on the prairie. In fact, George A. Tann, the doctor in question, lived only a mile from the Ingalls and also delivered Carrie.

8. There’s some controversy over whether or not Rose actually wrote the Little House books, but the evidence points to heavy editing, not ghost writing. Yes, Laura wrote her manuscripts in longhand, as she'd been doing as a successful farm journalist. She could have had the ms. typed, but I think she realized Rose could help her improve it. Rose certainly invented events and details! She was a popular but not a highly respected writer, as her work tended toward sensationalism. She also “borrowed” much of the material in LIW’s manuscript, Prairie Girl, for her own first novel, written at Rocky Ridge.

For a fascinating article on Laura and Rose—a woman ahead of her time in many ways—see this.
  #63  
Old 11-22-2017, 03:01 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
...Civil War rosters are available. I've seen them used on Who Do You Think You Are . It was Ashley Judd's ancestor. They told her the Kentucky unit that he served in. He was captured and a POW for 6 months. Released. Rejoined his unit and then wounded. Had a leg amputated and then was a POW again....
Interesting - a U.S. or Confederate soldier? Kentucky (birth state of both Lincoln and Davis) supplied troops to both sides.
  #64  
Old 11-22-2017, 03:46 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Originally Posted by F. U. Shakespeare View Post
If PFC Gomer Pyle could serve in the USMC 1964-1969 without the words "Viet Nam" being mentioned, I think the Ingalls TV family were safe.
Bonanza is another example of this. The series was set during the time of the Civil War but none of the Cartwright brothers were called into service.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 11-22-2017 at 03:46 PM.
  #65  
Old 11-22-2017, 04:09 PM
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Andy Griffith Show: 1960s North Carolina, yet no racial strife, Civil Rights issues. In fact, few Black actors even as extras, and IIRC, only one Black actor had a speaking line in all that time. Segregation? I guess inferred, as I don't recall seeing any but white kids in Opie's classes.
  #66  
Old 11-22-2017, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Andy Griffith Show: 1960s North Carolina, yet no racial strife, Civil Rights issues. In fact, few Black actors even as extras, and IIRC, only one Black actor had a speaking line in all that time. Segregation? I guess inferred, as I don't recall seeing any but white kids in Opie's classes.
If it was in the western part of the state Mayberry could have been pretty much all white.
  #67  
Old 11-22-2017, 06:39 PM
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If it was in the western part of the state Mayberry could have been pretty much all white.
Characters in the show frequently refer to going “up to Raleigh,” so I’d assume the fictional town was supposed to be south of there—definitely not the western part of the state. It also sounds like Raleigh was supposed to be within driving distance. The Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which played an important role in the Civil Rights Movement, was founded in Raleigh. It’s certainly feasible that Mayberry was an all-white town with laws designed to keep it that way, but the show frequently shows rural characters coming in to Mayberry, all of them white.

It’s far more likely that the show’s producers wanted to avoid alienating white Southern viewers. Social commentary wasn’t really a part of sitcoms until All in the Family premiered in 1971.
  #68  
Old 11-23-2017, 01:47 AM
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More Ingalls family tree info: according to this page, Charles and Laura are related to Diana, Princess of Wales
https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?t...Name=Ingalls-1

It looks like Charles's 4xg grandmother Prudence Hibbard and Diana's 6xg grandmother Keziah Hibbard were sisters; Diana's great-grandmother was an American heiress.
  #69  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:43 AM
Captain Amazing Captain Amazing is online now
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Characters in the show frequently refer to going “up to Raleigh,” so I’d assume the fictional town was supposed to be south of there—definitely not the western part of the state. It also sounds like Raleigh was supposed to be within driving distance. The Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which played an important role in the Civil Rights Movement, was founded in Raleigh. It’s certainly feasible that Mayberry was an all-white town with laws designed to keep it that way, but the show frequently shows rural characters coming in to Mayberry, all of them white.
Raleigh aside, Mayberry is pretty clearly based on Andy Griffith's home town of Mount Airy, with the nearby town of Mt. Pilot based on the town of Pilot Mountain. They're both in Surry County, near the Virginia border, where the western Piedmont meets the Blue Ridge and the show is pretty specifically in the hill country. A bunch of the early episodes have to do with hill folk coming into Mayberry and Andy having to find some way to keep them from practicing traditional hillbilly customs that don't fit in a modern town. (He has to stop a feud, once, and stop somebody from forcing somebody else to get married at gunpoint, for instance.)
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Last edited by Captain Amazing; 11-23-2017 at 02:44 AM.
  #70  
Old 11-26-2017, 02:49 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Well, actually...

1. Laura did indeed return in time for her father’s death in 1902. Charles had a heart condition and lingered awhile. Caroline Ingalls died rather suddenly, and Laura lived 600 miles away.

2. Mary was devastated by the death of their mother and never really recovered. Both Carrie and Grace lived in South Dakota and had been able to visit often. Why would Mary want to move 600 miles to live in unfamiliar territory?

4. Actually, Laura was 65 when her first book was published.

5. On racism: Please remember that these people were products of their time. While today it would be racist to tell a child she might see a “papoose,” it was not considered inappropriate at that time. Caroline Fraser says Laura once remarked that had she been an Indian, she would have continued killing white people rather than leave her rightful territory. As Fraser says, that’s quite a statement from a woman in that time and culture.

When did Almanzo write this ? He was not a keen letter writer and never wrote an article or book. From the time I first read The Long Winter, I suspected the Indian (probably Sioux) was a fictional character. However, Rose Wilder Lane was prone to invent people and events for “color.” It’s more likely she added this bit of foreshadowing. As a child, I was fascinated by the Black doctor who saved the Ingalls family when they had malaria. Blacks were seldom mentioned in accounts of life on the prairie. In fact, George A. Tann, the doctor in question, lived only a mile from the Ingalls and also delivered Carrie.

8. There’s some controversy over whether or not Rose actually wrote the Little House books, but the evidence points to heavy editing, not ghost writing. Yes, Laura wrote her manuscripts in longhand, as she'd been doing as a successful farm journalist. She could have had the ms. typed, but I think she realized Rose could help her improve it. Rose certainly invented events and details! She was a popular but not a highly respected writer, as her work tended toward sensationalism. She also “borrowed” much of the material in LIW’s manuscript, Prairie Girl, for her own first novel, written at Rocky Ridge.

For a fascinating article on Laura and Rose—a woman ahead of her time in many ways—see this.
1. Thanks. I did not realize she returned for her fathers funeral. I suspect it would have been hard for them to afford a train ticket back then. Although she had visited Rose in San Fransisco right about then.

2. Good point.

4. Thanks for the correction.

5. I will have to look around but I have a book where Rose sends her father Almanzo a list of maybe 30 or so questions about life in Desmet around the 1880's. Many questions were about prices and who did what. But in one case she asked Almanzo if indians ever came into town and he said they they did not.

I agree the "Long Winter" incident sounds like indian fiction of the time with the dialogue of "I tell-um white man... heap big snow come".

On Rose. You know what is interesting is when Rose wrote a "fictional" story about the family moving down to Florida for a few years and she mentions a character called "Uncle Charlie". Well that would have been the name of Ma's baby boy who died in childhood who would have been her Uncle Charlie if he had lived.
  #71  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:58 PM
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More distant cousins of Laura, through Richard Warren: Henry David Thoreau, Orson Welles, Ernest Hemingway, Taylor Swift

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richar...Richard_Warren
  #72  
Old 12-07-2017, 04:00 PM
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For those interested, Laura's autobiography "Pioneer Girl" was published a few years ago in an annotated form. I read it not long after it came out and found it interesting not only for what made it into the books but for what she left out.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/b..._reviewed.html
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