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Old 11-19-2017, 01:51 PM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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Besides Cuisine, Military, Law Enforcement, Medicine: Which Professions Have Adversarial Training

You know how when you're in the Army you're expected to stand at attention, have a perfect uniform, and any minor imperfection in your actions will result in harsh punishment? And how it's kind of the same in culinary school (where your trainer will scream at you how much you suck when you make a mistake), your medical residency, and so on?

Besides cuisine, military, law enforcement, and medicine, which professions have training that is, for lack of a better choice of words, adversarial? Like, you don't see the welding instructor at votech screaming obscenities at a student who made a mistake; he may firmly and unambiguously tell her what she did wrong, but there's no hostility.* Nor do you see that sort of thing in (I'm assuming) plumbing or HVAC school or whatever. Or do you?

*Surely there are bad teachers in any profession or discipline, but I don't imagine welding training, on the whole, is based on military model.
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Last edited by HeyHomie; 11-19-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:09 PM
Andy L Andy L is offline
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Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
You know how when you're in the Army you're expected to stand at attention, have a perfect uniform, and any minor imperfection in your actions will result in harsh punishment? And how it's kind of the same in culinary school (where your trainer will scream at you how much you suck when you make a mistake), your medical residency, and so on?

Besides cuisine, military, law enforcement, and medicine, which professions have training that is, for lack of a better choice of words, adversarial? Like, you don't see the welding instructor at votech screaming obscenities at a student who made a mistake; he may firmly and unambiguously tell her what she did wrong, but there's no hostility.* Nor do you see that sort of thing in (I'm assuming) plumbing or HVAC school or whatever. Or do you?

*Surely there are bad teachers in any profession or discipline, but I don't imagine welding training, on the whole, is based on military model.
Socratic instruction in law (not law enforcement, but teaching future lawyers) can be adversarial, if I understand correctly.

Areas in which mistakes can easily cost lives might also have adversarial training - I wonder about (for example) fire fighting, large animal training, etc.
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:11 PM
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:41 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is online now
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Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
You know how when you're in the Army you're expected to stand at attention, have a perfect uniform, and any minor imperfection in your actions will result in harsh punishment? And how it's kind of the same in culinary school (where your trainer will scream at you how much you suck when you make a mistake), your medical residency, and so on?
Neither residency nor med school were remotely comparable to the military in discipline, in my experience. There was criticism, sure, but no screaming or harsh punishment.

Though I do recall stories about Michael Swango (notorious medical serial killer) disconcerting his M.D. superiors during training, when he responded to criticism of his mistakes by dropping to the floor and doing pushups to atone (he had a military background in addition to being a weirdo).
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:46 PM
Andy L Andy L is offline
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Neither residency nor med school were remotely comparable to the military in discipline, in my experience. There was criticism, sure, but no screaming or harsh punishment.

Though I do recall stories about Michael Swango (notorious medical serial killer) disconcerting his M.D. superiors during training, when he responded to criticism of his mistakes by dropping to the floor and doing pushups to atone (he had a military background in addition to being a weirdo).
I read a book about Swango - a deeply weird fellow.
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:13 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Besides Cuisine, Military, Law Enforcement, Medicine: Which Professions Have Adversarial Training
What comes to mind is "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Do they really have "you're a moron!" screaming sessions in medical training? This is news to me, but then IANAD.

My inclination would be to include all minimum wage jobs as "adversarial training"
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:33 PM
gnoitall gnoitall is offline
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Certain professional athletic endeavors, such as football.

The nature of the game is team v. team, and in some sports (e.g. football) you have distinct squads in opposition, so training involves scrimmaging against your own team's opposition squad (offence v. defense). Sounds adversarial to me. You probably don't have as much coaches yelling at players, although for certain coaches and certain team philosophies it certainly does happen.
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:38 PM
Nava Nava is online now
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Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
You know how when you're in the Army you're expected to stand at attention, have a perfect uniform, and any minor imperfection in your actions will result in harsh punishment? And how it's kind of the same in culinary school (where your trainer will scream at you how much you suck when you make a mistake), your medical residency, and so on?
Is that question for real? In real cooking and medical schools (that is, outside of TV shows) that is not considered acceptable.

14yo doctors are also not real. And sometimes it's lupus.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:05 PM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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Is that question for real? In real cooking and medical schools (that is, outside of TV shows) that is not considered acceptable.

14yo doctors are also not real. And sometimes it's lupus.
I had a chef friend tell me that had been in both the Army and culinary school. He said the Army was way easier.
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:26 PM
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What comes to mind is "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Do they really have "you're a moron!" screaming sessions in medical training? This is news to me, but then IANAD.

My inclination would be to include all minimum wage jobs as "adversarial training"
Having worked both ends of the social spectrum, my impression is that dumb poorly paid workers (me) tend to get dumb poorly paid management. And smart well paid professionals (also me) tend to get smart well paid professional managers. In those contexts, people yell at me because they are dumb and don't know any better.

From my army friends, in the army some people are trained to do some tasks while ignoring the fact they are being shot at. Some of the training involves doing the same tasks while being yelled at. Some people are trained to do some tasks immediately, without thinking. Some of the training for that involves being yelled at. On the other hand, even in the (Aus) army, training for tasks that involve understanding does not include yelling, except from dumb Defence Force Academy graduates.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:31 PM
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My high school band.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:47 PM
silenus silenus is online now
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My high school band.
I was going to say you've never been in my debate classes!

eta: They hate it when this clip is cued up on their laptops after a tournament.

Last edited by silenus; 11-20-2017 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:05 PM
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I know medical residency doesn't normally work like that, and I'm pretty sure culinary school doesn't actually work like Hell's kitchen. I think you have an unrealistic starting point flavored by TV shows.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:08 PM
gkster gkster is offline
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A friend who trained as a firefighter 35+ years ago said that the academy was militaristic, like boot camp. No idea whether it's still like that.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:59 PM
DooWahDiddy DooWahDiddy is offline
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
Certain professional athletic endeavors, such as football.
I think this is as close to a real answer as you're gonna get. Professional football, for sure. Just watch any of those behind-the-scenes documentaries of training camps; seems pretty militaristic to me.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:53 PM
drachillix drachillix is offline
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A friend who trained as a firefighter 35+ years ago said that the academy was militaristic, like boot camp. No idea whether it's still like that.
My Fire academy class was alot of hard physical training but there was pretty much ZERO browbeating, yelling, or big attitudes. If anything if someone was lagging or spending alot of time pondering the best course of action there was the occasional "take your time, once they (the hypothetical occupants of burning structure) are dead you don't have to worry about rescuing them." Or "don't worry, the cries for help will stop on their own in a minute or two"
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:13 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post
Having worked both ends of the social spectrum, my impression is that dumb poorly paid workers (me) tend to get dumb poorly paid management. And smart well paid professionals (also me) tend to get smart well paid professional managers. In those contexts, people yell at me because they are dumb and don't know any better.

From my army friends, in the army some people are trained to do some tasks while ignoring the fact they are being shot at. Some of the training involves doing the same tasks while being yelled at. Some people are trained to do some tasks immediately, without thinking. Some of the training for that involves being yelled at. On the other hand, even in the (Aus) army, training for tasks that involve understanding does not include yelling, except from dumb Defence Force Academy graduates.
I havenít seen a correlation between pay and boss smarts...in both IT and engineering Iíve seen very Dilbert managers; they are picked due to office politics and disinterested upper management. Minimum wage bosses are usually as bad because they know their employees are stuck in the job and canít afford to complain.
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:43 PM
Nava Nava is online now
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I had a chef friend tell me that had been in both the Army and culinary school. He said the Army was way easier.
By what meaning of "easier"? My grad school classes were way easier than my undergrad classes, but neither involved the teacher yelling or insulting the students.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:00 AM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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I had a chef friend tell me that had been in both the Army and culinary school. He said the Army was way easier.
I've worked in the kitchen of a Michelin star restaurant for a couple of months. The tenor was militaristic, and, yes, yelling was common. Talking to the chefs, my impression was that this was not an anomalous experience, but I personally only have that one data point.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:20 AM
chappachula chappachula is offline
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I've worked in the kitchen of a Michelin star restaurant for a couple of months. The tenor was militaristic, and, yes, yelling was common. Talking to the chefs, my impression was that this was not an anomalous experience, but I personally only have that one data point.
I once worked in a simple but nice restaurant, where one of the cooks had stories about the CIA. (the Culinary Institute of America). He had started to study there, but for family reasons moved away. He described it as military boot camp...the new recruits lived in terror of their "drill sergeants".
And I have friends who took a vacation on a luxury cruise boat up the Hudson River, with fine cuisine provided by CIA-trained chefs. When the boat passed by the CIA campus, all the chefs lined up on deck in inform and saluted like soldiers.
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:20 AM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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I've worked in the kitchen of a Michelin star restaurant for a couple of months. The tenor was militaristic, and, yes, yelling was common. Talking to the chefs, my impression was that this was not an anomalous experience, but I personally only have that one data point.
I worked in a very nice small hotel restaurant in New Orleans for a few years in catering and bartending. The first few months were brutal. I got to learn new (let's just say unkind) words every day and the tension was always high in the kitchen. The head chef was the biggest bitch hottie that you have ever met that lost clothes throughout the night until she was just down to a sports bra and skimpy shorts because it was literally 120F in there. She would scream obscenities at anyone that came through the door. She quit after my first year and was replaced with someone older and a little nicer but that is like comparing Jeffrey Damher to Charles Manson.

I wouldn't call any of them "militaristic" though. It was mainly just controlled chaos sprinkled with a healthy dose of sexual harassment plus plenty of drugs and alcohol. There is no way I would let my daughters work in that type of environment. I miss those days.

Last edited by Shagnasty; 11-21-2017 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:46 AM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is offline
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This will be a bit of a tangent to what the OP is asking, but I'm intrigued...

Here's one industry where yelling, belittling and boot-camp style adversarial training does NOT take place: the airline industry.

I'm curious why that is, considering it's a safety oriented field. Medicine certainly is too, yet the culture there is very different. I have quite a few friends who are doctor / pilots, and many of them talk about how medicine could learn something from the "best practices" in aviation. There's a whole cottage industry attempting to bring aviation style checklist usage into medicine, but that's peripheral to what we're talking about here.

The training I received in the airlines (and charter sector) was intense, but "gentlemanly". Completely professional and courteous. They'd certainly wash you out if you couldn't perform, but for weaker candidates I saw an effort to help them improve and bring them along.

I'd guess that the people who oversee training decided (a while ago) that there's no point in yelling at people if the training is already well thought-out. You only get to the simulator after passing an extensive course on aircraft systems and company procedures. In the sim they throw every emergency scenario they can at you, and it's a well organized syllabus. I don't see what would be gained by being abusive.

If LSLGuy happens upon this thread maybe he can back me up on this, and talk about military aviation training and how it compares to the civilian side.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:13 AM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
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Originally Posted by HeyHomie View Post
You know how when you're in the Army you're expected to stand at attention, have a perfect uniform, and any minor imperfection in your actions will result in harsh punishment? And how it's kind of the same in culinary school (where your trainer will scream at you how much you suck when you make a mistake), your medical residency, and so on?

Besides cuisine, military, law enforcement, and medicine, which professions have training that is, for lack of a better choice of words, adversarial?
Law enforcement isn't adversarial. When I went through the police academy, nobody got yelled at for anything.
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