Help me debunk this homeopathic woo that's found its way into my home.

[Pitchmeister]

Originally Posted by elbows

When she's not looking, empty the bottle and replace with water. Problem solved, no battling required. She's happy, you rest easy. Worst outcome; it doesn't work and she begins to suspect that homeopathy is nonsense. Win/win!

What good would that possibly do? It's already water, so it's not harming the baby in any way. If it "works", he can hardly come out and say: "Sucker, it was only water!" without being a complete asshole and losing all her trust, and if it doesn't, it wouldn't have anyway.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Pitchmeister

What good would that possibly do? It's already water, so it's not harming the baby in any way. If it "works", he can hardly come out and say: "Sucker, it was only water!" without being a complete asshole and losing all her trust, and if it doesn't, it wouldn't have anyway.

In fact, tap water is going to be less pure.

[GargoyleWB]

Many in my family are heavily into the woo of "I saw it on Dr Oz and Oprah, so that means it's true!" Choose your battles, and as long as it doesn't break the bank or prevent you from using tried and true methods, then let them have their water drops.

What I've seen is that, due to the huge volume of possible alternatives and their industry always pushing the latest buzz fad, in 6 months they have already forgotten this week's miracle remedy and are distracted by the next thing.

"Mom, but last month 3 drops of elderberry extract under the tongue were supposed to cure your colds. 6 months before, your nutmeg aromatherapy was curing your colds. You don't use them any more, don't you believe that these products work? Why would the supplements industry ever lie?"

[Sattua]

I'm going to add another voice to the ones saying "this poor woman is handling a teething baby; let her do what makes HER feel better". She needs to feel like she's trying everything. She needs to feel like she has some modicum of control. Get your masculine logic away from there

[Larry Mudd]

Originally Posted by Sattua

I'm going to add another voice to the ones saying "this poor woman is handling a teething baby; let her do what makes HER feel better"

Ha. The funny thing is, the little guy is the most complacent, happy baby you will ever hope to see. The biggest sign that he is teething is an uptick of drool, and when he cries he is never inconsolable in the way that you expect from a teething baby. I think this may go some ways to her perception that it's an effective product; all that is really needed is a tiny distraction. "Wait.. what..? What's this?"

I can't persuade her to try 1ml of ordinary water in a dropper to observe that it will have the same effect. She talks over me when I try to explain that (((((1÷100)÷100)÷100)÷100)÷100)ml is one millionth of a mililiter of the original solution of "active" ingredient, that this is indistinguishable from water, or that all the research shows that homeopathic remedies are exactly as effective as you'd expect just plain water to be.

Never being one to leave well enough alone, I intend to try to articulate my thoughts on the subject well enough to compose An Apostrophe to Nameless, Otherwise-Intelligent People Who've Been Duped into Purchasing Homeopathic Remedies, to post to Facebook.

Just so I can sneak it, "For crying out loud, it's only WATER. Not 'only water' in the hyperbolic sense ordinarily reserved for American macrobrews, but *literally* only water," and "Some people are under the impression that it wouldn't be legal to sell it in a pharmacy if it wasn't proven to be efficacious, but as it stands the law is very tolerant of homeopathy, since it is certainly harmless in the sense that it is *only water.* Of course, paying for water at a rate of fifty cents per ml because you've been tricked into thinking that it has medicinal properties is a harm in itself."

[Sattua]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

The biggest sign that he is teething is an uptick of drool, and when he cries he is never inconsolable in the way that you expect from a teething baby.

Oh. Well in that case, a pox on your house, and sounds like you have time to lend me a hand with my 13-month-old who is cutting her first molars.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

Ha. The funny thing is, the little guy is the most complacent, happy baby you will ever hope to see.

The remedy is working?!.

[neuroman]

Good luck OP. Around these parts, belief in homeopathy is grounds for divorce.

[SticksAndString]

Originally Posted by rachelellogram

Tell your wife homeopathy is bullshit. Maybe you could link her this skeptico page. Then go out and buy some baby Anbesol and a cold teething ring (or just freeze some wet washcloths), and apply them to the child yourself. Whether your wife has been taken in by new age bullshit or not, you still have an unhappy kid that you can help.

We used a combination of baby Anbesol and a frozen Eggo waffle. Soothed the gums and gave him a snack all at the same time! Plus I didn't have to worry about whether or not he was ingesting fibers from the washcloth or not.

[scamartistry]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

if someone hands me a pier reviewed double blind study

What a goof.
Seriously, when was the last time someone handed you a double blind study? When was the last time you read one?

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

Ha. The funny thing is, the little guy is the most complacent, happy baby you will ever hope to see. The biggest sign that he is teething is an uptick of drool, and when he cries he is never inconsolable in the way that you expect from a teething baby. I think this may go some ways to her perception that it's an effective product; all that is really needed is a tiny distraction. "Wait.. what..? What's this?"

I can't persuade her to try 1ml of ordinary water in a dropper to observe that it will have the same effect. She talks over me when I try to explain that (((((1÷100)÷100)÷100)÷100)÷100)ml is one millionth of a mililiter of the original solution of "active" ingredient, that this is indistinguishable from water, or that all the research shows that homeopathic remedies are exactly as effective as you'd expect just plain water to be.

Never being one to leave well enough alone, I intend to try to articulate my thoughts on the subject well enough to compose An Apostrophe to Nameless, Otherwise-Intelligent People Who've Been Duped into Purchasing Homeopathic Remedies, to post to Facebook.

Just so I can sneak it, "For crying out loud, it's only WATER. Not 'only water' in the hyperbolic sense ordinarily reserved for American macrobrews, but *literally* only water," and "Some people are under the impression that it wouldn't be legal to sell it in a pharmacy if it wasn't proven to be efficacious, but as it stands the law is very tolerant of homeopathy, since it is certainly harmless in the sense that it is *only water.* Of course, paying for water at a rate of fifty cents per ml because you've been tricked into thinking that it has medicinal properties is a harm in itself."

So when you remove all the psychobabble and your desire to be proved correct, the homoepathic remedy is working.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

So when you remove all the psychobabble and your desire to be proved correct, the homoepathic remedy is working.

No. Psychobabble is what explains the homeopathic remedy's "working".

[nashiitashii]

I would've suggested clove oil in very small amounts (1 drop diluted in 3-5 drops of olive oil), as it's a known numbing agent that's safe for oral use. However, it doesn't seem like the teething is that painful for the baby.

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

No. Psychobabble is what explains the homeopathic remedy's "working".

I suggest you read the thread before you post, it is Larry Mudd who is the one trying to explain why homeopathic medicine can't work, and trying to go to great, almost comical lengths to do it. No one is trying to explain how it works.

Even funnier because his wife did the simplest thing, tried it and it worked.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by nashiitashii

I would've suggested clove oil in very small amounts (1 drop diluted in 3-5 drops of olive oil), as it's a known numbing agent that's safe for oral use. However, it doesn't seem like the teething is that painful for the baby.

Clove oil should only be used for up to three days, though, because it can be irritating to gums and mucus membranes. It's a "hold you over 'till you get to the dentist" remedy for tooth pain, not a long term solution.

As for homeopathic teething tablets and drops, it's clear to me that for some parent infant diads, they do "work", it's just that you have to accept their definition of the term "work". They do tend to make people happier at teething time. Whether it's a placebo effect for mom, a distraction for the kiddo or sugar tastes interesting (for the tablets), it makes teething less of a pain in the ass. That the same could be said for a bottle of water would merely indicate that water also "works" to ease teething.

Do they have a chemically active ingredient? Nope. But they do what they claim, which is to ease teething. It's not much of a claim, but they fulfill it.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

i suggest you read the thread before you post, it is larry mudd who is the one trying to explain why homeopathic medicine can't work, and trying to go to great, almost comical lengths to do it. No one is trying to explain how it works.

Even funnier because his wife did the simplest thing, tried it and it worked.

Correlation is not causation!

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by ExcitedIdiot

Correlation is not causation!

Just because you can't explain how something works does not equate to it not working.

Just because you can explain how something can't work does not equate to it not working.

One must be able to separate reality from their beliefs of how reality should be. This is where questioning and not blind acceptance comes in and learning for oneself begins.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

One must be able to separate reality from their beliefs of how reality should be. This is where questioning and not blind acceptance comes in and learning for oneself begins.

Yeah, no kidding. So in a case like this, you would have to eliminate all other possible causes for the baby "getting better." Perhaps the baby would have got better all on his own without the medicine. Perhaps there is a placebo effect at work via the mother's reactions, such that anything would be effective, even plain water.

So you'd have to get a very large group of babies, all around the age of teething, and you'd have to randomly assign the parents to use different teething remedies and note the effectiveness. Some might do nothing at all, some could use the homeopathic drops, some could use infant Tylenol, some would use a cool washcloth on the gums, etc. After you'd collected all of the data and analyzed it, you'd be able to see trends emerge. Did the homeopathic drops genuinely prove more effective than simply plain water, or nothing at all?

Absent a study like that, you've got no proof and no evidence. Just one mother who is convinced that the remedy she paid $18 for is effective, on a baby that wasn't really suffering that much in the first place.

[kanicbird]

For all you scientifically minded people here is a explanation of how homeopathy could work.

I am not saying this is how it worked for the OP, but just to give a example:

1 - Baby is in pain from teething, mom's heart goes out to her infant
2 - it is mom's love for baby that is moving of her heart and love is God
3 - So God knows and wants to solve this
4 - God looks at situation and sees a solution, needs to get baby to chew on her blanket, which was washed with a certain detergent which would also numb pain
5 - God sees that this 'homeopathic remedy' has a certain taste that will encourage the infant to chew on the blanket
6 - God motivated the heart of the mom to try this 'homeopathic remedy' and she does, infant chews blanket, and detergent substance relieves pain.

Then you have people trying to prove that the 'homeopathic remedy' can't work, discouraging the mom and trying to cause unneeded pain for the infant.

Now again I'm not saying this is the case with the OP, just a form of how such a remedy could work and bypass all scientific findings.

I am also stating this because I believe God is indeed active in out lives, guiding us even if we don't believe in Him, trying to lead us to a live with less pain and helping others, what is stopping this is people without knowleage of God's ways who try to impose their will on others.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

Just because you can't explain how something works does not equate to it not working.

Just because you can explain how something can't work does not equate to it not working.

One must be able to separate reality from their beliefs of how reality should be. This is where questioning and not blind acceptance comes in and learning for oneself begins.

You are the one who is blindly accepting, based on your belief in homeopathy. You keep saying it worked, but there is no proof of that. If you ate a grape the morning before you got into a car accident, you wouldn't blame the accident on the grape, would you?

Sure, mom gave the baby the drops, and the baby got better, but that doesn't prove that the drops caused the reduction in symptoms. Presumably, the baby drank and ate numerous other things, why couldn't these have caused the relief? Pain tends to come in cycles, getting worse and better for seemingly no reason at all. Do you leave any room to believe that something else caused the reduction in symptoms?

I don't know how else to explain this to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

Yeah, no kidding. So in a case like this, you would have to eliminate all other possible causes for the baby "getting better."

I challenge this statement, why do you need to eliminate them, the infant is soothed, that was the goal and it was accomplished.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

For all you scientifically minded people here is a explanation of how homeopathy could work.

In other words, "magic!!!"

Yeah. I'll stick with science, thanks.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

I challenge this statement, why do you need to eliminate them, the infant is soothed, that was the goal and it was accomplished.

If you want to prove that the drops are effective, you need to eliminate other factors that might also be at work. I just read your ridiculous "God did it!!" explanation a couple of posts up, so I now realize I am not having a conversation with a rational person. But IMO there is some value in being able to tell people, "These drops have no effect on their own. Their only effect will be in an imaginary deity possibly getting you to do something else that actually will be effective. So you should probably just do that other thing instead, rather than wasting $18 on these drops."

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by ExcitedIdiot

Y Do you leave any room to believe that something else caused the reduction in symptoms?

Read my above post, the cure came from the love of mom for her child, the method was divinely guided, how that happened, the steps I don't know.

Now if you want to isolate the substance that's a whole different situation.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

I challenge this statement, why do you need to eliminate them, the infant is soothed, that was the goal and it was accomplished.

So future parents can choose remedies that are proven to work, insuring the best possible care for their babies.

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by ExcitedIdiot

So future parents can choose remedies that are proven to work, insuring the best possible care for their babies.

That was never stated as a goal or a desire.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

Read my above post, the cure came from the love of mom for her child, the method was divinely guided, how that happened, the steps I don't know.

Now if you want to isolate the substance that's a whole different situation.

You have no proof of this! You just proposed a possible way it COULD work.

I propose homeopathy works like this:
1. Aliens from outside the milky way galaxy commune with Elvis's spirit.
2. They decide who is in pain and who isn't by playing games of checkers.
3. Afterword they instill holy power into homeopathy juice.
4. Baby is all better!

Doesn't that sound crazy to you? It should, I just made it up. There is exactly the same amount of proof for my theory, as there is for yours. That is to say, none.

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

I now realize I am not having a conversation with a rational person.

I suggest you find out what rational means, but yes one of us is not being rational here - and yes no point continuing.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

I suggest you find out what rational means, but yes one of us is not being rational here - and yes no point continuing.

I'll just leave this here for you:

ra·tion·al   [rash-uh-nl, rash-nl]
adjective
1.
agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible:

rea·son   [ree-zuhn]

verb (used without object)
8.
to think or argue in a logical manner.
9.
to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.

[Jackmannii]

Water is Love!!!! (I have trouble though with God is Quackery!!!!)

Originally Posted by kanicbird

One must be able to separate reality from their beliefs of how reality should be.

I need a new irony meter, the old one just exploded.

[scamartistry]

This "Kancibird" character is obviously trolling. And is doing a great job, kudos!

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by ExcitedIdiot

I'll just leave this here for you:

Thank you for proving my point.

So in other words claiming something can't work, then seeing it work, then claiming that it couldn't work is...

Not Rational

A rational thing to do would be to find out why it works or just accept that it does work.

The irrational thing to do is claim that it doesn't work despite it working.

It is the disconnect from reality that some have shown that make it not possible to continue with them.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

A rational thing to do would be to find out why it works or just accept that it does work.

I give up.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Sattua

I'm going to add another voice to the ones saying "this poor woman is handling a teething baby; let her do what makes HER feel better". She needs to feel like she's trying everything. She needs to feel like she has some modicum of control. Get your masculine logic away from there

Also, her critical thinking may not be at its peak, because she's not getting enough sleep. I know my judgment and critical thinking skills suffer when I don't get enough sleep. She's not going to be as rational and logical as she would be at her theoretical best, because she's sleep-deprived right now.

Unless she's spending money you truly can't afford on these remedies (and I mean the kind of "truly can't afford" where you're not eating for the last few days of the month, or not buying necessary medications), let it go.

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by elbows

When she's not looking, empty the bottle and replace with water. Problem solved, no battling required. She's happy, you rest easy. Worst outcome; it doesn't work and she begins to suspect that homeopathy is nonsense. Win/win!

Ir just start adding plain old pure water as the level in the bottle starts to go down ... she probably wouldn't notice that the bottle never gets empty as fast ass it used to and you don't have to pay for fancy water at 15 a pop. Win-win situation.

[FloatyGimpy]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

Water is Love!!!! (I have trouble though with God is Quackery!!!!)I need a new irony meter, the old one just exploded.

Holy shit, no kidding!

[Dangerosa]

To me, it isn't proof that the homeopathic cure is working, but that you don't need any teething relief at all right now. Your much bigger battle is going to be keeping your wife from trying to smooth over ever little bump do that your kid learns how to deal with falling down, failure, and heartache.

[Larry Mudd]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

A rational thing to do would be to find out why it works or just accept that it does work.

The irrational thing to do is claim that it doesn't work despite it working.

It is the disconnect from reality that some have shown that make it not possible to continue with them.

The thing is, every rational investigation of homeopathy confirms that it does not work at all, with monotonous predictability.

Anyone who is invested in the theory of homeopathy will ignore all the evidence which clearly shows that it is nomore effective than placebo and quickly trot out some variant of 'a wizard does it' when trying to articulate how it is supposed to work.

[Larry Mudd]

A couple folks have suggested replacing the product with just plain water - to be clear, this particular flavor of woo is packaged as sealed ampoules of individual 1ml "doses."

And in further response to the esteemed Kanicbird, I would not be worked up about this at all if it said 'magic' on the box.

My wife's family is Catholic. I raise no objections when it comes to lighting a candle as a remedy for family illness or whatever, because (as near as I can be sure,) I'm not a total asshole.

But when homeopathic products are sold in drugstores right next to actual medicine, labeled with misleading phrases such as "active ingredients", and people are buying them thinking that they are "real" in the same sense that drugs (or even herbal remedies) are, it invites protest.

[Colophon]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

But when homeopathic products are sold in drugstores right next to actual medicine, labeled with misleading phrases such as "active ingredients", and people are buying them thinking that they are "real" in the same sense that drugs (or even herbal remedies) are, it invites protest.

I quite agree. If the label said "Magical Holy Teeth-O-Water: As used on the infant Jesus" then I wouldn't have a problem with it, as the sort of people that would buy it deserve to be ripped off. If people want to believe in fairy tales, fine, but dressing it up as actual medicine is disingenuous.