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  #351  
Old 11-18-2017, 03:55 PM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Oops, I meant to address this, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
... Isn't there a community of people that transgender women can tap into who are genuinely interested in a long and loving relationship with a transgender woman and not just satisfying a kink?
Believe it or not, their are lots of cis people who are genuinely interested in loving relationships and don't see "trans" as a major issue. Just as there are non-diabetics who don't see type 1 diabetes as a relationship-killer.

I admit, in my experience, bisexual women are the most common partners for trans people of either gender. But there are trans people who are really hot by any ordinary standard, and I would expect they have a broad pool of potential partners, just as really hot cis people do.
  #352  
Old 11-18-2017, 04:39 PM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Originally Posted by Cyberpvnk View Post
I've heard this argument a thousand times, and you are correct, it has nothing to do with the mental illness that is transgenderism. That is a birth defect, not a mental disorder.

I'm curious to know what is so complicated in regards to human biology?
So, given that lots of people have birth defects leading them to have a poor match between the gender they were assigned and other parts (such as their brains) what should the rest of us do about it? Should we point and say "freak! freak!" Or should we let them live as the gender most comfortable to them, and treat them as members of the community?

The second seems like the obviously superior choice to me.

Speaking of which, it's not as if it's some new invention that there are people who don't fall nearly into either sex or gender. The Talmud has all sorts of rules about how to deal with intersex people.
  #353  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:55 PM
AI Proofreader AI Proofreader is offline
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Originally Posted by Cyberpvnk View Post
I've heard this argument a thousand times, and you are correct, it has nothing to do with the mental illness that is transgenderism. That is a birth defect, not a mental disorder.

I'm curious to know what is so complicated in regards to human biology?
I reject the idea that intersex is a birth defect.

There are many animal species that have hermaphrodite members, to one degree or another - humans just happen to be one of them. There are even species that naturally change entirely from one sex to another.

Clearly, sexual fluidity carries some kind of evolutionary advantage, or it wouldn't be so common.
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  #354  
Old Yesterday, 12:58 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Oops, I meant to address this, too.Believe it or not, their are lots of cis people who are genuinely interested in loving relationships and don't see "trans" as a major issue.

Just so you know, many people find "cis" a derogatory term.
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  #355  
Old Yesterday, 01:20 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Cyberpvnk View Post
Lol. Okay.

If you have a penis, you are a male. If you have a vagina, you are a female. No matter what you think, whether you are a male and think you are a female or vice-versa, it does not change the fact that you have the sexual biology you were born with. If you think you are a male, when biologically you are not, there is something wrong with your head. That defies reality and biological science itself.

Is that so hard to grasp?
LOL yourself. You understand and know nothing about the subject of sex, genetics, gender, and gender identity. Bored now.
  #356  
Old Yesterday, 01:40 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Its pretty simple. The cost of disclosure by 0.5% of the population when they date total strangers is higher than the cost of disclosure by 80%+ of the population when they date total strangers.
Huh? So you're agreeing with me?

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Yes and why can't they make that revelation before the date starts?
Why can't the cisgender people?

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Victim by who? The total stranger they are choosing to date? Perhaps a better filter before dating someone would be a better idea if the threat of violence is so prevalent.
That sort of victim-blaming would be bad enough if it even gave a nod to the concerns with any seriousness. Why don't all those cisgender men out there who have our well-being paramount actively start actively policing other cisgender men to stop beating and killing us?

Quote:
No its not. I don't intend to ever go on a date again in my life. I'm not trying to avoid anything. I have a bias, I doubt very many people in my generation don't have this bias. I don't have any hatred in my heart for transgender people, I pity them. In many ways, they drew a bad hand in life and they're trying to make the best of it.
Yet you seem to keep entering threads about people like me, asking a lot of questions, and seemingly making a lot of demands on us.

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No, it is an opinion informed by utilitarian principles.
And if my "utilitarian principles" say the opposite.

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You do know what utilitarianism isn't a form of math right?
You do know that you are basing your entire argument on your opinion? Calling it "utilitarian principles" appears to be only an attempt to give your opinion greater weight than it has by giving it a different name. Whereas I'm just outright calling my opinion an opinion.
  #357  
Old Yesterday, 06:05 AM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Just so you know, many people find "cis" a derogatory term.
I don't know that. It's a term describing most of the population, so it would be odd for it to be derogatory.

But anyway, when Microsoft word told me "many people find 'Jew' a derogatory term, you should avoid using it", I said, "screw you, Microsoft. I'm a Jew and I'm reclaiming that word." I'm cis, too. I don't know any other word to succinctly describe my condition. I'm gong to stick with this one, until I have evidence that some other word has replaced it.
  #358  
Old Yesterday, 07:09 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is online now
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Originally Posted by AI Proofreader View Post
I reject the idea that intersex is a birth defect.

There are many animal species that have hermaphrodite members, to one degree or another - humans just happen to be one of them. There are even species that naturally change entirely from one sex to another.
An intersex condition that prevents a person from reproducing, or in extreme cases having typical sexual intercourse, probably should be described as a defect.

Less extreme ones that do not interfere with reproduction probably are better called natural variation.

However, for human beings it is not normal to be hermaphroditic.
  #359  
Old Yesterday, 07:25 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Why do transgender women want to date so many strangers?
Why does anybody want to date strangers? Most of the guys I went on dates with were "strangers" before the day they asked me out. How the heck else was I supposed to get to know them, ask the FBI for their file?
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  #360  
Old Yesterday, 10:16 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
I don't know that. It's a term describing most of the population, so it would be odd for it to be derogatory.

But anyway, when Microsoft word told me "many people find 'Jew' a derogatory term, you should avoid using it", I said, "screw you, Microsoft. I'm a Jew and I'm reclaiming that word." I'm cis, too. I don't know any other word to succinctly describe my condition. I'm gong to stick with this one, until I have evidence that some other word has replaced it.
Actually, in many past debates he's never proven that "many" people somehow reach to find the term offensive, unless "many" equates to "an extremely tiny fraction of the population.

Stunning that I work in this area of social advocacy and no one, not even the hateful church people bused in from the sticks who threatened to hang me from a lamppost in a parking lot after my speech, has ever complained about being called "cisgender." But hey, if you can Google and find 100 people out there, then it must be true, right? (I'll wager I can probably find 100 people out there who find "Snuffleupagus" offensive as a word, too.)

A claim of offense over a word that is inoffensive in its roots and meaning is a tactic used to silence discussion and cast a chilling effect over a debate. Like when we as a society have had the "niggardly" discussions.
  #361  
Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Why does anybody want to date strangers? Most of the guys I went on dates with were "strangers" before the day they asked me out. How the heck else was I supposed to get to know them, ask the FBI for their file?
There's also the fact that it's not very easy for us to find dates in the first place, so of course we use the common methods that other people do. The whole subtopic is both victim-blaming and moralizing. "You shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt/those heels/using that dating site if you didn't want to be beaten up."

I don't think I can do this discussion any more. I honestly think at least one person in the thread is just trolling at this point, and it's clear that neither side is going to budge on this issue.
  #362  
Old Yesterday, 12:24 PM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Actually, in many past debates he's never proven that "many" people somehow reach to find the term offensive, unless "many" equates to "an extremely tiny fraction of the population.

Stunning that I work in this area of social advocacy and no one, not even the hateful church people bused in from the sticks who threatened to hang me from a lamppost in a parking lot after my speech, has ever complained about being called "cisgender." But hey, if you can Google and find 100 people out there, then it must be true, right? (I'll wager I can probably find 100 people out there who find "Snuffleupagus" offensive as a word, too.)

A claim of offense over a word that is inoffensive in its roots and meaning is a tactic used to silence discussion and cast a chilling effect over a debate. Like when we as a society have had the "niggardly" discussions.
Yeah, I wondered if he was just blowing smoke. I plan to keep using the word. The only problem with "cis", imo, is that lots of people are unfamiliar with it. But if you define it once, you can use it after that. If you want to talk about gender at all, you need a word that means something like "cis", and it's the only one I know.
  #363  
Old Yesterday, 06:53 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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I think it's kind of a weird sounding word, if you know what I mean. It's kind of awkward to say. At least, that's how I think of cisgender. Other than that, I really don't give a rat's ass.

(I loathe the whole "zhe/zhir" thing, though. If only because it sounds so pretentious. Or "female-bodied person". That's just weird.)
  #364  
Old Yesterday, 07:22 PM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
...
(I loathe the whole "zhe/zhir" thing, though. If only because it sounds so pretentious. Or "female-bodied person". That's just weird.)
I dunno. I know a lot of people who want a different set of pronouns. Most use "they", but some use "ze" or "e" or "xe". I kinda like "ze". It is easy to pronounce and it doesn't mess up my understanding of the sentence like the singular "they" does. "Sam went to the mall, and they found a neat new store."

I almost never feel a need to say something like "female bodied person". Sometimes it's relevant to say "people with a uterus", when, I dunno, talking about the facilities in a restroom. Sometimes you might want to warn someone "that person who looks like a girl is actually a guy", but then it's about one specific person, and you'd probably say, "by the way, Sam uses masculine pronouns" or something.

I suppose it's all less weird when you find yourself in a social group that happens to include a lot of non-binary and trans people.
  #365  
Old Yesterday, 07:49 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Yeah, I wondered if he was just blowing smoke. I plan to keep using the word. The only problem with "cis", imo, is that lots of people are unfamiliar with it. But if you define it once, you can use it after that. If you want to talk about gender at all, you need a word that means something like "cis", and it's the only one I know.
Nope, not blowing smoke:


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn...b_5617913.html
"There are some who really do not like the word, however, and especially when it is applied to them. For some it is just a dislike of having a label applied to them that they did not choose...The use of “cis” and “cisgender” should be carefully examined. There are people who strenuously object to these words being applied to them, even if the words come from an academic background. Just as my feelings on certain subjects should be respected, so should the feelings of people who dislike these labels...When these words are used in focus groups that look at messaging on transgender issues, the responses are nearly universally negative. The conclusion of many organizations is that you should not use either “cisgender” or “cis” in any sort of public narrative.

Even inside the LGBT community the words have a very negative connotation. ..It isn’t logically or ethically consistent to tell one group of people that they need to get over a word they dislike being used to describe them while strenuously objecting to a word being applied to you, even if both words can be used in a contextually neutral way. The logic cuts both directions."




https://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nel...b_5598113.html

"By imposing the label “cisgendered” onto me, you do me psychological and intellectual violence. You are saying that I am the same as all the people who do accept and inhabit the normative roles attached to the social construct of “men,” “male,” or “masculine.” You are silencing my voice and rejecting my right to determine my own identity. You have put me into a binary that alienates me from gender discourse...If someone doesn’t understand why I find the term “cisgendered” offensive, why I refuse to allow someone else to define me or inscribe their ideas onto my body, then perhaps I’m not the ignorant one."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/foru...sgender?page=2

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...hristine-sisto

"Do not call me cisgender. You have no right or authority to name me without my consent. . . . It does not come from us, as its origins are from a trans perspective. . . . Do not call me cisgender. That is offensive to me. I am offended that you consider that you have power over me, and can name me."



So, it's not just me, I am not blowing smoke. You may disagree and that's fine, but in any case many people do find that term offensive.
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  #366  
Old Yesterday, 08:14 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Because the majority of the population has no significant risk by being forthright. Because the disclosure by the minority does carry significant, real, demonstrable risk to them
All other discussions aside, I believe you when you say that disclosure by transgender woman presents a significant, real, demonstrable risk to them. I absolutely believe you. What I don't understand is why transgender woman wouldn't make this disclosure BEFORE there is a risk?

Do you think being alone with a man and about to become intimate is the BEST time for a transgender woman to tell a man that she is a transgender woman? I would think that would be the WORST time, alone with a horny man who might hurt her or worse after she tells him.

Quote:
This whole thing increasingly seems like heel-digging to avoid having to be forthright about bias
And here again is your opinion that there is bias. Do you mean bias in the "anti-trans" sense, or just bias against people who do not anatomically conform to a partner you are looking for?
  #367  
Old Yesterday, 08:16 PM
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I just love when the majority takes on the injured mantle of the oppressed minority, mostly in order to keep the oppressed minority from acting like there's nothing "wrong" with them.

"YOU'RE the disordered ones! Don't try to label MEEEE!"
  #368  
Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM
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DrDeth, your first quote is the only one that send relevant. The second appears to be a person saying he rejects the gender binary and he, personally, doesn't identify with "cis". That's fine, there are lots of non-binary people and others who don't fit nearly into buckets. The existence of bisexuals doesn't make the word "straight" offensive, even if it might be offensive to call a bisexual straight.

As for the third, that's just silly. I am cisgender. Indeed, the word does come from us, certainly in this list it does, and more and more cisgender people are learning the word and applying it to themselves all the time.

If you, personally, find it offensive, I will try not to apply it to you. I'm still going to apply it to me, and to people like me who haven't stated an objection. I don't feel any need to describe your gender (I don't even know you) but if you have a deception you'd like me to use, I will try to remember that. Warning, it will sit, in my memory, right next to where I try to remember people's preferred pronouns, so I may mess up. But I'll try.
  #369  
Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
All other discussions aside, I believe you when you say that disclosure by transgender woman presents a significant, real, demonstrable risk to them. I absolutely believe you. What I don't understand is why transgender woman wouldn't make this disclosure BEFORE there is a risk?...
manson1972, I believe you are missing some of the risks of a trans person coming out. You do a good job of describing the risks of coming out to a potential sexual partner, but you miss the risks of coming out to an employer or neighbor. If you post "I'm trans" in a dating profile, you may be doing that.

I imagine the safest time to come out as trans is after connecting with a potential date, but before being alone with them. So, maybe during the texting setting stuff up, or maybe over coffee at the first date, in a public place, like a coffee shop. But I'm not going to dictate to people how to run their romantic affairs.
  #370  
Old Yesterday, 09:04 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
manson1972, I believe you are missing some of the risks of a trans person coming out. You do a good job of describing the risks of coming out to a potential sexual partner, but you miss the risks of coming out to an employer or neighbor. If you post "I'm trans" in a dating profile, you may be doing that.

I imagine the safest time to come out as trans is after connecting with a potential date, but before being alone with them. So, maybe during the texting setting stuff up, or maybe over coffee at the first date, in a public place, like a coffee shop. But I'm not going to dictate to people how to run their romantic affairs.
I agree. I can see the risk. But your helpful suggestion of "after connecting with a potential date, but before being alone with them" seems to be a huge no-no and is grouped under the heading of "Why should she tell her date?" outrage. That is my question.
  #371  
Old Yesterday, 10:04 PM
Biffster Biffster is online now
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Nope, not blowing smoke:





https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn...b_5617913.html

"There are some who really do not like the word, however, and especially when it is applied to them. For some it is just a dislike of having a label applied to them that they did not choose...The use of “cis” and “cisgender” should be carefully examined. There are people who strenuously object to these words being applied to them, even if the words come from an academic background. Just as my feelings on certain subjects should be respected, so should the feelings of people who dislike these labels...When these words are used in focus groups that look at messaging on transgender issues, the responses are nearly universally negative. The conclusion of many organizations is that you should not use either “cisgender” or “cis” in any sort of public narrative.



Even inside the LGBT community the words have a very negative connotation. ..It isn’t logically or ethically consistent to tell one group of people that they need to get over a word they dislike being used to describe them while strenuously objecting to a word being applied to you, even if both words can be used in a contextually neutral way. The logic cuts both directions."








https://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nel...b_5598113.html



"By imposing the label “cisgendered” onto me, you do me psychological and intellectual violence. You are saying that I am the same as all the people who do accept and inhabit the normative roles attached to the social construct of “men,” “male,” or “masculine.” You are silencing my voice and rejecting my right to determine my own identity. You have put me into a binary that alienates me from gender discourse...If someone doesn’t understand why I find the term “cisgendered” offensive, why I refuse to allow someone else to define me or inscribe their ideas onto my body, then perhaps I’m not the ignorant one."



http://www.escapistmagazine.com/foru...sgender?page=2



http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...hristine-sisto



"Do not call me cisgender. You have no right or authority to name me without my consent. . . . It does not come from us, as its origins are from a trans perspective. . . . Do not call me cisgender. That is offensive to me. I am offended that you consider that you have power over me, and can name me."







So, it's not just me, I am not blowing smoke. You may disagree and that's fine, but in any case many people do find that term offensive.


So I guess one who objects to being called "cisgendered" (including me) might appreciate why others also object to being called "faggot" or "dyke," and for many of the same reasons. "I am offended that you consider you have power over me, and you can name me." A bit of irony there.
  #372  
Old Yesterday, 11:20 PM
AI Proofreader AI Proofreader is offline
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Originally Posted by Biffster View Post
So I guess one who objects to being called "cisgendered" (including me) might appreciate why others also object to being called "faggot" or "dyke," and for many of the same reasons. "I am offended that you consider you have power over me, and you can name me." A bit of irony there.
Pretty ridiculous comparison. I never chose to be labelled transgender either, it just is what it is and doesn't bother me. Doesn't mean I can't be offended if someone calls me a "tranny." There's a difference between a label meant to categorize, as in, "something is this but not that," versus a label that is intended to be derogatory and insulting.

There's no reason to use "faggot" or "dyke" when there are other neutral words for someone's sexual orientation. As far as I know, there's no derogatory or insulting version of "cisgender," it's just a description.
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  #373  
Old Yesterday, 11:33 PM
DUCKofDEATH DUCKofDEATH is offline
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Honestly, you are not going to make any headway with this person on any argument on any subject using any rhetorical or logical method. Best to just say, "Mmm, interesting" and change the subject. The whole MO of these political commentators is to make provocative unsupported statements, usually about some "other" that they consider beneath themselves. People who are fans of this type of discourse are to be avoided if possible.
Your provocative unsupported statements are quite chortle-worthy.
  #374  
Old Today, 01:52 AM
DUCKofDEATH DUCKofDEATH is offline
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I just love when the majority takes on the injured mantle of the oppressed minority, mostly in order to keep the oppressed minority from acting like there's nothing "wrong" with them.
When an "oppressed minority" is trying to force the normal majority to adopt the minority's disordered reality, that tends to make normal people skittish.

There are x and y chromosomes that determine gender. When everything is operating normally, that gives us men and women. Any other results are malfunctions that we should try to heal. Certainly society shouldn't change as a result.
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  #375  
Old Today, 03:01 AM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
When an "oppressed minority" is trying to force the normal majority to adopt the minority's disordered reality, that tends to make normal people skittish.

There are x and y chromosomes that determine gender. When everything is operating normally, that gives us men and women. Any other results are malfunctions that we should try to heal. Certainly society shouldn't change as a result.
Do you actually have anything new to add? Just askin'.
  #376  
Old Today, 03:33 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
There are x and y chromosomes that determine gender.
No there aren't. They don't even determine sex, much less gender. Your next sentence even shows that you know those chromosomes don't even determine sex, which makes the whole post fallacious.
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  #377  
Old Today, 05:03 AM
Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is offline
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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
There are x and y chromosomes that determine gender.
You're conflating "gender" and "sex". Psychology and medicine have considered these separate issues for quite some time now; if you won't keep up with the cutting edge of medical science, you could at least keep up with the stuff that was cutting edge before my parents met.
  #378  
Old Today, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Absolutely, and I would think that would be an argument for vetting people BEFORE you date total strangers but if you are going to do that, do you think that the violence is more likely if you are upfront before you go on a date or after a few dates? I know some people will just go around gay bashing transgender folks. But I suspect that there is a population of people who would be repulsed if they knew before they started to get romantically (not necessarily sexually) involved but might be violent if they found out after they started to get romantically involved.
I know! And why don't women weed out date rapists before they go on dates? I know some people will go around raping women anyway, but I suspect there is a population of people who would be put off if they knew in advance the woman didn't want to have sex with them but might get all rapey if they found out after they started to get sexually aroused by how sexy their date looked.

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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Just so you know, many people find "cis" a derogatory term.
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
I think it's kind of a weird sounding word, if you know what I mean. It's kind of awkward to say. At least, that's how I think of cisgender. Other than that, I really don't give a rat's ass.
Same here.

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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I agree. I can see the risk. But your helpful suggestion of "after connecting with a potential date, but before being alone with them" seems to be a huge no-no and is grouped under the heading of "Why should she tell her date?" outrage. That is my question.
I'm not convinced this is correct; much of that apparent conflation has been driven by your initial omission of ""pre-op" in reference to reluctance to date transwomen.

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Originally Posted by DUCKofDEATH View Post
When an "oppressed minority" is trying to force the normal majority to adopt the minority's disordered reality, that tends to make normal people skittish.
People are often surprised to learn that "normal" isn't as normal as they think it is.

In related news - I know this was a month ago but I only just heard about it this morning: well-known bleeding-heart-liberal and UK Prime Minister Theresa May has proposed amendments to the Gender Recognition Act on the basis that “being trans is not an illness and it should not be treated as such”. Note that the current regulation requires a medical diagnosis of "gender dysphoria", which is one of the elements proposed for removal from the act.

And the reason I just heard of it is that Scotland is revising their Gender Recognition Act to include recognition of non-binary people (ahead of the UK review). And then there's Ireland...

As I said, "normal" ain't so normal...
  #379  
Old Today, 06:35 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Well, trans and cis have the same origin and are exact opposites: "trans" means "across", "cis" means "on the same side". We use them in chemistry to describe the geometry around double bonds.

A trans person is someone whose internal gender and official label at birth are on opposite sides; a cis person is one whose sides match. That's all.

There's lots of things which are strange when you first run into them; heck, I've been having to answer if I want to be addressed as Miss, Ms. or Mrs. for years and I still find it strange. Translations to Spanish are even worse; some pages make you choose between Srta., Sra. or Sra., while never differentiating between Dr. and Dra.
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Last edited by Nava; Today at 06:36 AM.
  #380  
Old Today, 06:46 AM
puzzlegal puzzlegal is offline
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Yes, the first time I saw the word "cis" being used to describe gender, I thought back to my college biochemistry class, and worked out what it had to mean based on what the prefixes mean in chemistry.

But to those who think that "cis" is derogatory description of their own condition: what would you prefer to be called?
  #381  
Old Today, 09:36 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
I'm not convinced this is correct; much of that apparent conflation has been driven by your initial omission of ""pre-op" in reference to reluctance to date transwomen.
Maybe. But that was because I thought it was common knowledge that a man dating a woman would expect that woman to conform with 99.4% of the female population.

But somehow, the assumption that the woman you are dating is a cisgender woman is a faulty assumption, even though it applies to 99.4% of the population.

In any event, the knowledge is going to come out eventually. I am just trying understand why sooner wouldn't be better than later from the point of view of a transgender person.
  #382  
Old Today, 10:22 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is online now
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The difference is that when a person says "I don't want to date or have sex with a transwoman" it implies that such a person wouldn't date or have sex with her regardless of whether she is pre or post-op.

If you are willing to consider a post-op transwoman with a constructed vagina as a potential date or lover then, in fact, you do not automatically exclude ALL transwomen. That actually is a significant distinction.
  #383  
Old Today, 10:49 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Why does anyone date strangers? Everyone is safer dating someone in their community, and yet dating apps, designed to help people date strangers are massively popular.

I imagine transgender women date strangers for the same reasons cisgender women date strangers.
Maybe its just the women I know but they generally use dating apps to try to find someone compatible. If they are looking for a Jewish man, they are usually pretty up front about that rather than date total strangers in the hopes that if the guy isn't Jewish, they might convert to Judaism. If they are looking for a college educated man, they seem to select for that rather than date total strangers and hope that if they hook up with a non-college educated guy, he goes on to become a college graduate. If I was deaf, I would want people to know up front so I don't waste my time going on dates with men who are not interested in dating a deaf woman. None of these are perfect analogies but until someone comes up with a better one...

ISTM that if I am using a dating app as a transgender woman, I would want to filter out anyone that wasn't interested in dating a transgender woman.
  #384  
Old Today, 10:51 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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Oops, I meant to address this, too.Believe it or not, their are lots of cis people who are genuinely interested in loving relationships and don't see "trans" as a major issue. Just as there are non-diabetics who don't see type 1 diabetes as a relationship-killer.

I admit, in my experience, bisexual women are the most common partners for trans people of either gender. But there are trans people who are really hot by any ordinary standard, and I would expect they have a broad pool of potential partners, just as really hot cis people do.
I don't doubt that there is a population of people who are genuinely interested in dating a transgender person. I am pretty sure that the 20% of people whoa re open to dating transgender are not all trying to satisfy their bucket list.
  #385  
Old Today, 10:57 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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Originally Posted by AI Proofreader View Post
I reject the idea that intersex is a birth defect.

There are many animal species that have hermaphrodite members, to one degree or another - humans just happen to be one of them. There are even species that naturally change entirely from one sex to another.

Clearly, sexual fluidity carries some kind of evolutionary advantage, or it wouldn't be so common.
Clearly? Transgenderism reduces the likelihood of procreation. Things that reduce the chances of having children that survive into adulthood are NOT generally considered evolutionary advantages. It is not even clear that transgenderism is a heritable trait.
  #386  
Old Today, 11:10 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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Huh? So you're agreeing with me?
I might have said that backwards.

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Why can't the cisgender people?
They can. Its just inefficient to have 80% of the population make contingencies for something that happens far less than 1% of the time. Better to have the <1% of the population prepare for the contingency that will happen to them 80%+ of the time.

Quote:
That sort of victim-blaming would be bad enough if it even gave a nod to the concerns with any seriousness. Why don't all those cisgender men out there who have our well-being paramount actively start actively policing other cisgender men to stop beating and killing us?
No, that's not victim blaming. Its engaging in known risky behavior. I think there ought to be a la against beating up someone because they are transgender, what's that? There IS a law and it is almost universally supported?

Quote:
Yet you seem to keep entering threads about people like me, asking a lot of questions, and seemingly making a lot of demands on us.
What demands? You don't have to disclose your transgenderism. I think its dishonest to keep that to yourself but YMMV.

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And if my "utilitarian principles" say the opposite.
I would like to hear the utilitarian argument that supports your conclusion.

Quote:
You do know that you are basing your entire argument on your opinion? Calling it "utilitarian principles" appears to be only an attempt to give your opinion greater weight than it has by giving it a different name. Whereas I'm just outright calling my opinion an opinion.
No, utilitarian principle means more than "whatever the fuck I feel like"

Your opinions are in fact your opinions. My opinions are buttressed by a utilitarian argument that I have made right here in this thread. Utilitarian arguments frequently fail in the face of equity and justice arguments (See, Americans with Disabilities Act) but there is no greater justice in making 80% of the people disclose than making 1% of the people disclose.
  #387  
Old Today, 11:14 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Why does anybody want to date strangers? Most of the guys I went on dates with were "strangers" before the day they asked me out. How the heck else was I supposed to get to know them, ask the FBI for their file?
Well, don't you know people from school and through friends? Some avenue of meeting men that gives you some opportunity to exchange material facts BEFORE you start dating?
  #388  
Old Today, 11:17 AM
coffeecat coffeecat is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Maybe its just the women I know but they generally use dating apps to try to find someone compatible. If they are looking for a Jewish man, they are usually pretty up front about that rather than date total strangers in the hopes that if the guy isn't Jewish, they might convert to Judaism. If they are looking for a college educated man, they seem to select for that rather than date total strangers and hope that if they hook up with a non-college educated guy, he goes on to become a college graduate. If I was deaf, I would want people to know up front so I don't waste my time going on dates with men who are not interested in dating a deaf woman. None of these are perfect analogies but until someone comes up with a better one...

ISTM that if I am using a dating app as a transgender woman, I would want to filter out anyone that wasn't interested in dating a transgender woman.
Since being trans isn't as socially acceptable as being Jewish or college educated, someone might be shy about blurting it out to the world over the internet, even though it does have to come up sometime between the first date and the wedding.
  #389  
Old Today, 11:51 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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I know! And why don't women weed out date rapists before they go on dates? I know some people will go around raping women anyway, but I suspect there is a population of people who would be put off if they knew in advance the woman didn't want to have sex with them but might get all rapey if they found out after they started to get sexually aroused by how sexy their date looked.
I don't think that avoiding risky behavior and victim blaming are the same thing.

Telling a transgender person who has been beaten up that its their fault because they didn't tell their date they are transgender is victim blaming.

Telling a rape victim that they got raped because the weren't wearing a burka is victim blaming.

Telling transgender and cisgender women to avoid risky behavior is not victim blaming.
  #390  
Old Today, 11:57 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is online now
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Since being trans isn't as socially acceptable as being Jewish or college educated, someone might be shy about blurting it out to the world over the internet, even though it does have to come up sometime between the first date and the wedding.
OK so I created a dummy account on a dating site and the ask just about everything. One thing they do not ask is whether a open to dating transgender. It also doesn't ask if I am transgende. Why is that?
  #391  
Old Today, 12:22 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
OK so I created a dummy account on a dating site and the ask just about everything. One thing they do not ask is whether a open to dating transgender. It also doesn't ask if I am transgende. Why is that?
OKCupid does


Which dating site did you make the dummy account on which didn't?

Last edited by AHunter3; Today at 12:22 PM.
  #392  
Old Today, 12:26 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Originally Posted by Biffster View Post
So I guess one who objects to being called "cisgendered" (including me) might appreciate why others also object to being called "faggot" or "dyke," and for many of the same reasons. "I am offended that you consider you have power over me, and you can name me." A bit of irony there.
No, you pretty clearly don't appreciate why people are offended by "faggot" or "dyke," if you think it can be at all analogized to "cisgender."
  #393  
Old Today, 12:57 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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No, you pretty clearly don't appreciate why people are offended by "faggot" or "dyke," if you think it can be at all analogized to "cisgender."
Even tho I am not happy with "cis" I agree, it is not almost always used as a perjoritive, while those terms usually are.

If I had to make a comparison, I would say "cis" is about even with "Negroid", that is a correct scientific term that should be used with caution outside a scientific paper.

I am not saying we should ban "cis' or that it is hate speech, but one should just realize that some find it offensive and some use it as a perjoritive. My post was a attempt to educate, not castigate.

Likely this is going off the tracks here, perhaps back to the main subject?
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  #394  
Old Today, 01:29 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
No, that's not victim blaming. Its engaging in known risky behavior.
It seems very similar to telling a woman she can't wear certain clothes, go to certain places, talk to certain people, or else she bring any assault or rape on herself. Which is victim-blaming.

Quote:
No, utilitarian principle means more than "whatever the fuck I feel like"
Because you can't apply any basis for the exact break-point of where it becomes more "utilitarian" to go ahead and have cisgender men be forthright about their preferences, it certainly seems like that.

Honestly, I don't know why you aren't seeing why it's simply in your opinion - because you cannot give a concrete reason for why you chose the breakpoints you did. I asked earlier, how many transgender persons would there need to be on dating sites before your argument no longer holds for you, and you couldn't say. That makes it entirely your opinion. You could easily claim so long as less than 49.5% of the women on a site were transgender, that the majority should rule - due to "utilitarian" principles.

Here's my utilitarian principle: because the "burden" on poor, oppressed cisgender males is merely to have to type "no trans" (I timed it, it took 2 seconds to type. Two miserable measly seconds) or whatever else they feel into their profile, that pales compared to the burden of proactively giving out personal medical history and information to the entire general public on the dating site. Thus they should be doing it if there is any chance they might hook up with a transgender person. That's my "utilitarian principle."

AGAIN, I can't read minds but it really seems like it's just that people don't want their bias exposed to the light of day. Kinda like all the Trump voters who were ashamed to answer honestly in polls and interviews.

Dress it up with whatever PHIL 101 words you want, it's still just your opinion. Just as mine is mine.
  #395  
Old Today, 01:32 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Well, don't you know people from school and through friends? Some avenue of meeting men that gives you some opportunity to exchange material facts BEFORE you start dating?
Your argument is what, at that point? "Why can't kids today just meet their sweethearts at the sock hop or for a chocolate phosphate at Elmer's diner?"
  #396  
Old Today, 01:40 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
You're conflating "gender" and "sex". Psychology and medicine have considered these separate issues for quite some time now; if you won't keep up with the cutting edge of medical science, you could at least keep up with the stuff that was cutting edge before my parents met.
Indeed, the OED recognizes somewhat different definitions for sex and gender since before Shakespeare. Perhaps duckofdeath is like Encino Man or Donald Trump, awakened suddenly in a post-hunter-gatherer world of scary new things?
  #397  
Old Today, 02:11 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Here's my utilitarian principle: because the "burden" on poor, oppressed cisgender males is merely to have to type "no trans" (I timed it, it took 2 seconds to type. Two miserable measly seconds) or whatever else they feel into their profile, that pales compared to the burden of proactively giving out personal medical history and information to the entire general public on the dating site. Thus they should be doing it if there is any chance they might hook up with a transgender person. That's my "utilitarian principle."
I'm curious on your thoughts regarding OK Cupid that was shown upthread. There are personal choices for different genders of the profile maker. Do you advise against transgender people selecting "transgender" when creating a profile on that dating site?
  #398  
Old Today, 02:38 PM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Indeed, the OED recognizes somewhat different definitions for sex and gender since before Shakespeare. Perhaps duckofdeath is like Encino Man or Donald Trump, awakened suddenly in a post-hunter-gatherer world of scary new things?
Well, s/he's white-knighting for Clothathup over in that esteemed boardmember's current "Will the Left & Right Ever Agree On Anything?" well-poisoning fest in the Pit, so that invites some speculation, given the late join date...
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