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  #1  
Old 10-22-2017, 11:16 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Politicians consider adding a 'copper' plan to the affordable care act

Platinum plans cover 90% of medical costs. Gold 80%, silver 70%, bronze 60%. Now they want to add a copper plan that'll cover 50%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja.../#3b74a6be47df

Why is this pitworthy? Because we spend 2x more on health care than any other nation and have less to show for it. And if politicians truly wanted to, they could reform the health care system to make it cost effective. Rather than encouraging people to buy shittier and shittier insurance, reform the health care system to make it cost effective. But they don't want to step on the toes of the medical device industry, pharma, insurance industry, AMA, hospital industry, etc., all of whom would lose business under genuine reform. So instead of reforming our health care system to make it affordable, just make insurance shittier.

Maybe in 2025 when health care costs 20% of GDP they can create a 'lead' plan that covers 40% of medical expenses. Then 'aluminum' which covers 30% in 2034 when health care costs $8 trillion a year and is inferior to care that costs a fraction of that in the UK or Japan.
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  #2  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:09 AM
Dr. Crap Dr. Crap is offline
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I'm on the wood plan. Twice a year I pay a doctor of literature $65 to sodomize me for 20 minutes. I haven't died yet!
  #3  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:18 AM
TimeWinder TimeWinder is offline
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Because we spend 2x more on health care than any other nation and have less to show for it.
That's not really fair. We pay a lot more than 2x compared to most of them. I've heard it argued that the Canadians (who at half our cost are the "worst" of the "universal" plans) only have it so expensive because of proximity effects from the horrific US market.
  #4  
Old 10-23-2017, 05:33 AM
El_Kabong El_Kabong is offline
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Any proposals for a Particle Board plan? That's about all I can afford at the moment.
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:15 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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In keeping with the rest of the Trump agenda, maybe "The Coal Plan" would be a better moniker. Although copper does evoke a return to a simpler time-- The Copper Age.
  #6  
Old 10-23-2017, 09:16 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Any proposals for a Particle Board plan? That's about all I can afford at the moment.
Even cheaper is the Sheets of Cardboard plan.
Can Japanese companies offer a Paper Wall plan?
  #7  
Old 10-23-2017, 09:22 AM
QuickSilver QuickSilver is offline
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Can't wait for them to float the Lead Balloon Plan.
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  #8  
Old 10-23-2017, 09:29 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Can't wait for them to float the Lead Balloon Plan.
Mythbusters did that.
  #9  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:27 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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Yes this addition of another option for consumers is despicable.
  #10  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:40 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Your sarcasm is penetrating and valuable and makes you sound smart.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:53 AM
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Your sarcasm is penetrating and valuable and makes you sound smart.
Your subtle dig will be totally lost on the idiot.
  #12  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:54 AM
QuickSilver QuickSilver is offline
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Mythbusters did that.
So did the GOP. Twice this year alone.
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  #13  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:56 AM
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Your subtle dig will be totally lost on the idiot.
Careful or you're going to hurt the idiot's feelings.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 10-23-2017 at 10:56 AM.
  #14  
Old 10-23-2017, 10:57 AM
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Careful or you're going to hurt the idiot's feelings.
He has those?
  #15  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:06 AM
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I was going to ask what they do when they run out of cheap metals, but I see this has already been covered. But some thinking outside the box may be needed here. Everyone is still focused on comparing plans to actual materials. Even cardboard costs money, you know. I propose the ultimate in consumer choice: the "imaginary plan". It covers nothing at all, but consumers will be very pleased with the low, low cost.
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Yes this addition of another option for consumers is despicable.
I think you have health care confused with cars. What is truly despicable is to limit a human being to only the health care that they can scrape together the money to pay for, and if they can't, well, it sucks to be them. And if their life depends on it, well, I guess it really sucks to be them.
  #16  
Old 10-23-2017, 11:15 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Careful or you're going to hurt the idiot's feelings.
Not even if Dr. Seuss tried to explain it to him.
  #17  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:57 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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I've got the Teflon plan. No health costs forwarded to it stick to it. I fork over half a grand every month for the privilege of still paying 100% of all my incurred health care costs from my own pocket. It counts towards a deductible that I've never met. (Even in two consecutive years each involving knee surgery).
  #18  
Old 10-23-2017, 01:15 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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About 5-6 years ago I used to joke about there being two plans below our company's miserable "Bronze Plan".

The Lead Plan; Here's your bullet. You'll need to borrow a gun.

The Wood Plan: Here's your plywood coffin. Just hop in already.
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  #19  
Old 10-23-2017, 01:31 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes this addition of another option for consumers is despicable.
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
Your sarcasm is penetrating and valuable and makes you sound smart.

To be fair, apart from the comfort of being able to buy useless cover for your health needs when things go wrong --- although admittedly as a foreigner I have no experience in the field of buying such health insurance, there must be people who actually enjoy scanning plans and deciding which selections are most important to them, just like some mathematically inclined persons enjoy tax return filling up.

For such folk, yeah, more and more 'options' are very heaven.
  #20  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:38 PM
wolfpup wolfpup is online now
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I've got the Teflon plan. No health costs forwarded to it stick to it. I fork over half a grand every month for the privilege of still paying 100% of all my incurred health care costs from my own pocket. It counts towards a deductible that I've never met. (Even in two consecutive years each involving knee surgery).
Sounds like the bastards stole my Imaginary Plan™ idea! I knew it was a good one! A plan that covers nothing can frequently be offered under very consumer-friendly terms.
  #21  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:51 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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I was going to ask what they do when they run out of cheap metals, but I see this has already been covered. But some thinking outside the box may be needed here. Everyone is still focused on comparing plans to actual materials. Even cardboard costs money, you know. I propose the ultimate in consumer choice: the "imaginary plan". It covers nothing at all, but consumers will be very pleased with the low, low cost.

I think you have health care confused with cars. What is truly despicable is to limit a human being to only the health care that they can scrape together the money to pay for, and if they can't, well, it sucks to be them. And if their life depends on it, well, I guess it really sucks to be them.
Scarcity is a real son-of-a-bitch.

There oughta be a law...
  #22  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:00 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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If there is one government handout that I could support, it would be to provide a dog to all statists. This could help them to sate their intense desire to control sentient beings.
  #23  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:15 PM
QuickSilver QuickSilver is offline
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If there is one government handout that I could support, it would be to provide a dog to all statists. This could help them to sate their intense desire to control sentient beings.
That's a nice thought but I think the way to Make America Great Again is to arrange a government handout that would provide each Trump supporter a working brain.
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  #24  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:19 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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The irony is that these plans are a bigger gift to the insurance companies than the subsidies they allege to replace. They place low caps on everything protecting the insurers from high payouts for the serious illnesses.
  #25  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:20 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Will Farnaby is the reason I would support Serenity Universe colonization plans.

Dropping off people like him with little more than a blanket and a shovel and allowing them to live in their own little paradise with zero government, nor the benefits that come with having a government.

To be sure, I'd go a little farther. Each colonist gets a Duluth Pack, which they can fill with their own clothing and gear, plus a machete and their choice of Axe, Shovel or Pick.
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  #26  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:24 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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The copper plan covers you if you're shot by the police, but that's it.
  #27  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:33 PM
TimeWinder TimeWinder is offline
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The copper plan covers you if you're shot by the police, but that's it.
Nah, it would be bankrupt in a week.
  #28  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:47 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
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Why is this pitworthy? Because we spend 2x more on health care than any other nation and have less to show for it. And if politicians truly wanted to, they could reform the health care system to make it cost effective. Rather than encouraging people to buy shittier and shittier insurance, reform the health care system to make it cost effective. But they don't want to step on the toes of the medical device industry, pharma, insurance industry, AMA, hospital industry, etc., all of whom would lose business under genuine reform. So instead of reforming our health care system to make it affordable, just make insurance shittier.
This and this is why politicians cannot reform health care; the money flowing from health are providers and insurance companies is crucial for many politicians go get elected, and the last thing that these groups want is transparency or accountability (note the increase in speding peaking in the 2008-2009 timefrane). The real failing of the Affordable Care Act was while it made insurance available to people who couldn’t afford it or be accepted because of pre-existing conditions (and forced people who didn’t believe they had a need for insurance to participate or suffer tax penalties, which was a legitimate point of contention), it did virtually nothing to control health care costs or force providers to be more transparent. (It did force insurers to disclose more of their restrictions and limitations so at least something was gained.) The notion that health care can be treated like a market-driving commodity is based upon the assumption that consumers can make informed and rational decisions about costs versus benefits, but that is given lie when even most health care practitioners don’t know the costs of tests and procedures they are recommending or medications they are prescribing, and the average consumer does not have the technical knowledge to make an independent assessment of benefit beyond the practicioner’s recommendation.

Just wait until they get down to the die-cast zinc plan. Buy a plan with all the integrity of a ‘78 Nova door handle!

Stranger

Last edited by Stranger On A Train; 10-23-2017 at 03:49 PM.
  #29  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:37 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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How about a "fuck you" plan? This plan seems really good, but when you get sick, the insurance company goes over your file with a fine toothed comb, and finds out that you failed to declare a mole on your left shoulder, so denies you coverage for your heart attack. "Recision plan" sounded too complicated, so "Fuck You Plan" it is.
  #30  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:44 PM
Kinthalis Kinthalis is offline
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Will we get to see a single payer system in the US in our lifetimes? Or will it be up to our grandkids?
  #31  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:45 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
How about a "fuck you" plan? This plan seems really good, but when you get sick, the insurance company goes over your file with a fine toothed comb, and finds out that you failed to declare a mole on your left shoulder, so denies you coverage for your heart attack. "Recision plan" sounded too complicated, so "Fuck You Plan" it is.
Just declare being born as a pre-existing condition. No need for all that expensive file-combing.
The ideal healthcare insurance company would be the CEO, Board of Directors, Sales and Billing.
  #32  
Old 10-23-2017, 05:00 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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That's a nice thought but I think the way to Make America Great Again is to arrange a government handout that would provide each Trump supporter a working brain.
When you say "provide each Trump supporter a working brain," you're talking about the free dog, right?

Sort of like how we could give Republicans a heart by giving them the actual organ that is part of the cardiopulmonary system.
  #33  
Old 10-23-2017, 08:30 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Will we get to see a single payer system in the US in our lifetimes? Or will it be up to our grandkids?
I don't know. Vermont said they would do it, then backed out.

The problem is health care is now so expensive, nobody wants to implement single payer. That is why Vermont backed out, the taxes were too high. That isn't an attack on single payer, it is just a sad effect of having the most expensive health system on earth.

The best time to implement single payer was before health care costs skyrocketed. We were spending 6% of GDP in the 1960s, and only about 9% in the early 80s. So doing it in the 60s or 70s would've been best.

Now nobody wants to nationalize 18% of the economy.

However, currently the government covers roughly 50-60% of medical spending. Plus single payer is cheaper so that'll bridge the gap.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/esse...htmlstory.html

Quote:
A legislative analysis had estimated the cost of the proposed system to be $400 billion annually, but a study released by the nurses Wednesday estimates the yearly cost would be $331 billion as of 2017.

If the state can obtain waivers in all of the present areas of public health funding, it will provide $225 billion of the cost of a single-payer program.

“That means that the remaining $106 billion to fund Healthy California will need to be provided by new revenue sources in the state,” the study says.
So currently California spends ~$400 billion on health care per year. Under single payer that'll drop to $331 billion. Of that $331, the state, federal, city and county governments are already paying $225 billion for medicaid, medicare, SCHIP, VA, etc, leaving $106 billion in revenue needed. That works out to what, roughly $4000 on average in taxes on each taxpaying person in California assuming 25 million taxpayers? Obviously it won't be a flat tax like that, generally single payer proposals involve funding via a mix of payroll taxes and progressive income taxes.

But even in deep blue California, they balk at the price tag.

However if California gets single payer, their health care system will have more people than Canada or Australia.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-23-2017 at 08:32 PM.
  #34  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:25 AM
Isamu Isamu is offline
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'Copper'? Politicians are so uncreative. It goes diamond, yellow diamond, gold-pressed latinum, platinum, gold, rose-gold, mica, tungsten, pollonium. Then everyone gets to feel special.
  #35  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:29 AM
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I don't know. Vermont said they would do it, then backed out.

The problem is health care is now so expensive, nobody wants to implement single payer. That is why Vermont backed out, the taxes were too high. That isn't an attack on single payer, it is just a sad effect of having the most expensive health system on earth.

The best time to implement single payer was before health care costs skyrocketed. We were spending 6% of GDP in the 1960s, and only about 9% in the early 80s. So doing it in the 60s or 70s would've been best.

Now nobody wants to nationalize 18% of the economy.

However, currently the government covers roughly 50-60% of medical spending. Plus single payer is cheaper so that'll bridge the gap.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/esse...htmlstory.html



So currently California spends ~$400 billion on health care per year. Under single payer that'll drop to $331 billion. Of that $331, the state, federal, city and county governments are already paying $225 billion for medicaid, medicare, SCHIP, VA, etc, leaving $106 billion in revenue needed. That works out to what, roughly $4000 on average in taxes on each taxpaying person in California assuming 25 million taxpayers? Obviously it won't be a flat tax like that, generally single payer proposals involve funding via a mix of payroll taxes and progressive income taxes.

But even in deep blue California, they balk at the price tag.

However if California gets single payer, their health care system will have more people than Canada or Australia.
How is that $70 billion in savings achieved?
  #36  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:41 AM
Leaper Leaper is online now
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Will we get to see a single payer system in the US in our lifetimes? Or will it be up to our grandkids?
I ponder this in a thread in IMHO. There's a surprising number of people who think absolutely no amount of cost increase to the system or decrease in coverage will EVER have ANY effect on government. I am not yet convinced.
  #37  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:02 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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How about a "fuck you" plan?
I have a "fuck you" plan.
  #38  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:08 PM
Cheesesteak Cheesesteak is offline
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Scarcity is a real son-of-a-bitch.
Only in this country.

In other countries, they had the stones to beat that fucker into submission.

In this country, we bend over a table and yell "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
  #39  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:20 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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Only in this country.

In other countries, they had the stones to beat that fucker into submission.

In this country, we bend over a table and yell "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
Trouble is, in other countries the rich have a harder time saying "Give me that knee surgery pronto, and if you have to kick that old poor loser out of the cardio unit, then I don't give a fuck! Here's the cash!"

Because the rich getting healthcare while the poor die makes the rich feel better. And that's The American Way. If you are poor, you deserve it because you are lazy, or genetically inferior.
  #40  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:24 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
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Because the rich getting healthcare while the poor die makes the rich feel better. And that's The American Way. If you are poor, you deserve it because you are lazy, or genetically inferior.
Truly “American exceptionalism” at its finest.

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  #41  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:27 PM
kanicbird kanicbird is offline
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In France last year, 2 dr visits, one specialist, 3 Rx meds, no insurance, total paid out of pocket in full about $250.

This year in Spain, prescription meds costing $75 here are over there over the counter, same dosage, for less then $5 US.

We are getting the royal US screwing when it comes to health scare.
  #42  
Old 10-25-2017, 04:57 PM
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In France last year, 2 dr visits, one specialist, 3 Rx meds, no insurance, total paid out of pocket in full about $250.

This year in Spain, prescription meds costing $75 here are over there over the counter, same dosage, for less then $5 US.

We are getting the royal US screwing when it comes to health scare.
I've got that beat. A week in hospital last December following a minor heart attack. Heart surgery. About half a dozen followup doctor visits. My total out-of-pocket cost: $0.
  #43  
Old 10-27-2017, 01:28 AM
adaher adaher is offline
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There's no evidence that a copper plan is "shittier". Presumably it covers the same stuff as the platinum plan, you just pay lower premiums but are liable for more out of pocket expenses. There is nothing inherently wrong with choosing copper over platinum. Neither is better than the other, one just collects your money monthly and the other collects most of your money when you get routine care.

Insurance is meant to insure you against unplanned catastrophes, not things you know will happen.
  #44  
Old 10-27-2017, 05:02 AM
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There's no evidence that a copper plan is "shittier". Presumably it covers the same stuff as the platinum plan, you just pay lower premiums but are liable for more out of pocket expenses. There is nothing inherently wrong with choosing copper over platinum. Neither is better than the other, one just collects your money monthly and the other collects most of your money when you get routine care.
A copper plan is shittier for exactly the same reason that my previously described "imaginary plan" would be the shittiest of all. It was meant to illustrate a point that you apparently didn't get: that such a bogus tradeoff appeals to those who are financially stressed and therefore the least capable of meeting those out-of-pocket costs when they actually need health care. It's nothing more than a fraudulent and shameless exhibition of the barbaric idea that the quality and quantity of essential medical care one receives should be based on one's ability to pay for it. That nonsense was long ago rejected by every civilized country on earth, but then, those other countries don't have Republicans shitting all over them.

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Originally Posted by adaher View Post
Insurance is meant to insure you against unplanned catastrophes, not things you know will happen.
And that argues for why the conventional insurance model doesn't work for health care at all. That's why the US health care system has to have all these intricate priority-juggling compromises, all these complicated plan options named after metals, more rules, regulations, processes and procedures than the IRS, wasting hundreds of billions annually, and it still doesn't fucking work!
  #45  
Old 10-27-2017, 05:41 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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What about the clay plan, which only covers foot injuries?
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  #46  
Old 10-27-2017, 06:38 AM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Insurance is meant to insure you against unplanned catastrophes, not things you know will happen.
This is why insurance is unpopular.
  #47  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:23 AM
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"So, I can fly to Madrid, have my hip replacement, fly to Pamplona, stay 8 nights in the best room in the best hotel, eat like a king, run with the bulls, get trampled, fly back to Madrid, have another hip replacement to replace my broken hip replacement, and fly back to the States for less than just the co-payment I'd have to pay at home for one hip replacement."
  #48  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:46 AM
JackieLikesVariety JackieLikesVariety is offline
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It's nothing more than a fraudulent and shameless exhibition of the barbaric idea that the quality and quantity of essential medical care one receives should be based on one's ability to pay for it.
and impractical, don't forget that.

because at some point Mr. Moneybags is going to be exposed to drug resistant TB when one of the cooks at his favorite restaurant gives it to him. or something like that.

and nobody is "covered" really - as long as it's possible to have "insurance" and still go bankrupt from medical bills. which doesn't happen anywhere else that pretends to be a first world country.

Last edited by JackieLikesVariety; 10-27-2017 at 08:48 AM.
  #49  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JackieLikesVariety View Post
and nobody is "covered" really - as long as it's possible to have "insurance" and still go bankrupt from medical bills. which doesn't happen anywhere else that pretends to be a first world country.
The US is not a first-world country from the standpoint of health care access, certainly not for the poor and lower middle class. When the charitable organization Remote Area Medical was founded in 1985, it was intended to provide free emergency medical services to countries where people were suffering because of backwards undeveloped health care systems. Since the early 90s, out of obvious necessity much of its work has been diverted to the USA, where poor and lower middle class Americans need its charitable medical services more than the Wapishana Indians of the upper Amazon.
  #50  
Old 10-28-2017, 07:21 AM
adaher adaher is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,284
Problem is, adding the copper plan does not make anyone's insurance worse than the alternative of not adding the copper plan. It just gives people more options and will probably increase compliance with the law. In case you didn't notice, the young and healthy are giving you a big middle finger right now, so you might want to entice them into the pool.
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