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  #101  
Old 11-20-2016, 10:22 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
None of this is normal, and the very fact that essential elements of this campaign appear to have been pulled from Arrested Development to an astonishing degree almost as if Trump had been on a late-night Netflix binge while putting together his strategy should highlight that.
This is the season where America jumps the shark because the plot just gets too ridiculous and convoluted to take seriously.

I don't think anyone will get away with what Trump did again, because he's probably going to go down as one of the most ineffective and terrible Presidents in U.S. history. The people who voted for him do expect results, and they aren't going to get anything but more screwed. I expect within a couple years' time they will turn on him.
  #102  
Old 11-20-2016, 10:31 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
This is the season where America jumps the shark because the plot just gets too ridiculous and convoluted to take seriously.

I don't think anyone will get away with what Trump did again, because he's probably going to go down as one of the most ineffective and terrible Presidents in U.S. history. The people who voted for him do expect results, and they aren't going to get anything but more screwed. I expect within a couple years' time they will turn on him.
I'm thinking not so much this-It seemed to me that a lot of the hubbub wasn't about specific solutions to specific problems, but about directing rage towards an enemy to hate. Even now that the election is over the only talk I hear on right-wing radio is directed towards what the Democrats are supposedly doing and saying, and there is next to no talk about what is going to happen or how it is going to happen or what the various new appointees may bring to the new administration. They are still attacking as if the election is still ongoing, and I'm wondering if this is a deliberate misdirection.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 11-20-2016 at 10:31 AM.
  #103  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:06 AM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I don't think anyone will get away with what Trump did again, because he's probably going to go down as one of the most ineffective and terrible Presidents in U.S. history. The people who voted for him do expect results, and they aren't going to get anything but more screwed. I expect within a couple years' time they will turn on him.
They may turn on Trump the (baby)-man, but he's demonstrated that it is possible to use outrageous insult as an effective campaign strategy as long as you follow through and don't act embarassed or apologize. As far as I am aware, he only acknowledged and apologized only for his "lewd comment" on the Access Hollywood tape, and even that turned into a direct attack on his opponent. Formerly, the conventional thinking was that the candidate himself could not go too negative on his opponent lest he be seen as not having anything positive to say, and so highly negative ads and comments were separated as coming from third parties which were independent of the campaign. Trump has shown that it is possible to go full on negative and even bullying, and as long as it is done with sufficient bombast it can be successful. This is a dangerous lesson that will not be soon forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
I'm thinking not so much this-It seemed to me that a lot of the hubbub wasn't about specific solutions to specific problems, but about directing rage towards an enemy to hate. Even now that the election is over the only talk I hear on right-wing radio is directed towards what the Democrats are supposedly doing and saying, and there is next to no talk about what is going to happen or how it is going to happen or what the various new appointees may bring to the new administration. They are still attacking as if the election is still ongoing, and I'm wondering if this is a deliberate misdirection.
They are definitely in a "What do we do now?" type situation. Despite the claims that Trump and GOP knew they were going to sweep the election, it's pretty clear that they were not expecting a clear win and nobody was planning a transition in advance. Now that they are completely in power and the Democrats are essentially powerless, there is no one left to blame. It's a dangerous position because it was very easy to play the "Blame Obama" game and propose legislation that they knew would not pass a presidential veto, and then they could use that as further evidence that Obama won't compromise (even though he's compromised to the point of being a spineless executive just to get anything through Congress).

Now there are no more excuses for not pursuing an agenda that many of them do not fully believe in and will not resolve the basic social and economic problems of the nation that had people fearful enough to vote for Trump. There are two possibilities; they either turn on each other, or they turn on 'liberal America' (e.g. the protesters, dissenters, progressive causes, et cetera). Either choice is going to be ugly; the latter will be destructive to the fundamentals of liberty and democracy.

Stranger
  #104  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:09 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is online now
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Originally Posted by Grrr! View Post
...

Instead of rolling our sleeves up and really trying to figure out why such a large segment of the population were voting for Trump, which BTW had large segments of both women and Hispanics, we liberals were all too eager to label them all witches in this fucking witch hunt.

....
To paraphrase Eddie Murphy at the end of Trading Places, "Why can't we do both?"

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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Well, now we know why print media and the investigative journalism associated with it is dying. Any ideas or arguements that can't be presented in 140 characters aren't worthy of consideration.
This.

Quote:
I don't think it is "the liberals" who are being hunted. But quite honestly, this shouldn't be framed as a "liberals versus conservatives" at this point. The people who voted Trump into the primaries didn't vote for him based upon his conservative values. Donald Trump is not and has never been either a social or fiscal conservative, and he certainly does not reflect the morals and ethics of social conservatives and Evangelicals. He does not advocate a culture of personal responsibility and integrity, and indeed, his history and behavior displays the very antithesis of conservativeism. Trump promoted himself as the barbarian at the gate, the guy who was going to come in with a wrecking ball and tear the system down, "drain the swamp", and send profesional politicians packing. He was going to bring back jobs, get rid of all of the dangerous illegal immigrants who are roaming the streets in search of daughters to rape, and and ban Muslims so that ISIS in America will stop constantly blowing up our buildings and going on shooting sprees. That all of these statements are factually unsupportable is irrelevant; Trump tapped into a basic fear that our government is not capable of providing physical safety and economic security, from terrorism and immigration to employment and safe drinking water, and he pledged simple if completely unworkable solutions. He's basically the Joker come to reality, and he even has a similar countenance and manner of speaking.

The essential point here is that what Trump is doing is going to harm everyone in this country in some way, and wil probably harm some of the very people who voted for him the most. That message needs to be pointed out every time he does something of substantive harm to the nation as a whole or to significant parts of it, and it shouldn't be diluted by outrage over some shitty thing he says on Twitter at a point that normal people are in bed having nightmares about having elected the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu in a bad combover as president. The focus cannot just be on Trump driving his gilded clown car through the halls of government until he is feted and resigns so he can spend more time sniffling through the dressing rooms of beauty pageant contestants or being the focus of a reality TV show, but also on the bevy of hateful reactionary people he is bringing with him and will remain once he is back grabbing pussy as once more a private citizen.

There is merit in pointing out that in selecting future candidates and focusing on issues, the Democrats can't just focus on the wealthy suburban coastline base, and need to pay particular attention to demonstrating that their candidate is not someone who is beholden in any way to the very interests which savaged the economy for their own personal gain. They need to appeal to the mass of people who are looking for actual reform without endorsing the angry Hulk-smash mentality. They need to look beyond provincialism and select a candidate not based upon party loyalty and fundraising ability but who appeals to a wider range of people, and certainly someone who doesn't enter a race with a predictable net negative approval rating. They'll go in knowing that the right wing smear machine is going to sling manufactured scandal on a daily basis, but they shouldn't be giving it any credibility by having a history of nontransparency and poor decision making.

But by the same token, the people who voted for Trump this year need to be reminded that even though they may not be racist, misogynistic, or homophobic themselves, when they hate-voted for a candidate who espoused those values, behaved like an ill-mannered toddler, and surrounded himself with people who were genuinely hateful, the result is what we have now. Not just Donald Trump, the Man-Baby President, but all of the shitty people, corrupt lobbyists, and alt-right radical reactionaries that he is brought with him. They need to be reminded that nearly everything Trump has claimed about himself and his values in this election has been a complete fabrication, and the result is going to be the antithesis of what he has promised. Those points need to be made clear so that enough people are not swayed by bombastic demagogues like Trump that there is anything close to this kind of election again. The next time there is a candidate who threatens to jail his opponent during a policy debate as if he is some kind of Central African strongman, the point needs to be made plainly that this is not normal or acceptable behavior from someone seeking public office, because by winning this election using those very tactics Trump has made it the new standard and you can bet that other candidates will ape this behavior in trying to get similar results.

None of this is normal, and the very fact that essential elements of this campaign appear to have been pulled from Arrested Development to an astonishing degree almost as if Trump had been on a late-night Netflix binge while putting together his strategy should highlight that.

Stranger
Long, well said, and I read every word.
  #105  
Old 11-20-2016, 12:30 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Well, now we know why print media and the investigative journalism associated with it is dying. Any ideas or arguements that can't be presented in 140 characters aren't worthy of consideration.

I don't think it is "the liberals" who are being hunted. But quite honestly, this shouldn't be framed as a "liberals versus conservatives" at this point. The people who voted Trump into the primaries didn't vote for him based upon his conservative values. Donald Trump is not and has never been either a social or fiscal conservative, and he certainly does not reflect the morals and ethics of social conservatives and Evangelicals. He does not advocate a culture of personal responsibility and integrity, and indeed, his history and behavior displays the very antithesis of conservativeism. Trump promoted himself as the barbarian at the gate, the guy who was going to come in with a wrecking ball and tear the system down, "drain the swamp", and send profesional politicians packing. He was going to bring back jobs, get rid of all of the dangerous illegal immigrants who are roaming the streets in search of daughters to rape, and and ban Muslims so that ISIS in America will stop constantly blowing up our buildings and going on shooting sprees. That all of these statements are factually unsupportable is irrelevant; Trump tapped into a basic fear that our government is not capable of providing physical safety and economic security, from terrorism and immigration to employment and safe drinking water, and he pledged simple if completely unworkable solutions. He's basically the Joker come to reality, and he even has a similar countenance and manner of speaking.

The essential point here is that what Trump is doing is going to harm everyone in this country in some way, and wil probably harm some of the very people who voted for him the most. That message needs to be pointed out every time he does something of substantive harm to the nation as a whole or to significant parts of it, and it shouldn't be diluted by outrage over some shitty thing he says on Twitter at a point that normal people are in bed having nightmares about having elected the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu in a bad combover as president. The focus cannot just be on Trump driving his gilded clown car through the halls of government until he is feted and resigns so he can spend more time sniffling through the dressing rooms of beauty pageant contestants or being the focus of a reality TV show, but also on the bevy of hateful reactionary people he is bringing with him and will remain once he is back grabbing pussy as once more a private citizen.

There is merit in pointing out that in selecting future candidates and focusing on issues, the Democrats can't just focus on the wealthy suburban coastline base, and need to pay particular attention to demonstrating that their candidate is not someone who is beholden in any way to the very interests which savaged the economy for their own personal gain. They need to appeal to the mass of people who are looking for actual reform without endorsing the angry Hulk-smash mentality. They need to look beyond provincialism and select a candidate not based upon party loyalty and fundraising ability but who appeals to a wider range of people, and certainly someone who doesn't enter a race with a predictable net negative approval rating. They'll go in knowing that the right wing smear machine is going to sling manufactured scandal on a daily basis, but they shouldn't be giving it any credibility by having a history of nontransparency and poor decision making.

But by the same token, the people who voted for Trump this year need to be reminded that even though they may not be racist, misogynistic, or homophobic themselves, when they hate-voted for a candidate who espoused those values, behaved like an ill-mannered toddler, and surrounded himself with people who were genuinely hateful, the result is what we have now. Not just Donald Trump, the Man-Baby President, but all of the shitty people, corrupt lobbyists, and alt-right radical reactionaries that he is brought with him. They need to be reminded that nearly everything Trump has claimed about himself and his values in this election has been a complete fabrication, and the result is going to be the antithesis of what he has promised. Those points need to be made clear so that enough people are not swayed by bombastic demagogues like Trump that there is anything close to this kind of election again. The next time there is a candidate who threatens to jail his opponent during a policy debate as if he is some kind of Central African strongman, the point needs to be made plainly that this is not normal or acceptable behavior from someone seeking public office, because by winning this election using those very tactics Trump has made it the new standard and you can bet that other candidates will ape this behavior in trying to get similar results.

None of this is normal, and the very fact that essential elements of this campaign appear to have been pulled from Arrested Development to an astonishing degree almost as if Trump had been on a late-night Netflix binge while putting together his strategy should highlight that.

Stranger
Actually, I lied. I do read your posts. But I disagree that we don't need a Trump Twitter thread. Having one does not mean we're not focusing on the other stuff. And it certainly does not mean we're glorifying what he says. That's a big .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I don't think anyone will get away with what Trump did again, because he's probably going to go down as one of the most ineffective and terrible Presidents in U.S. history.
One fear is that he's going to be "effective" -- very, very effective indeed -- especially with a Republican Congress.

Last edited by Siam Sam; 11-20-2016 at 12:32 PM.
  #106  
Old 11-20-2016, 12:48 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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New tweet! This morning. Another demand for an apology from the Hamilton cast. In it, he says he's been told the play "is highly overrated."

Myself, I've heard it's a fantastic, very patriotic play.

Last edited by Siam Sam; 11-20-2016 at 12:49 PM.
  #107  
Old 11-20-2016, 12:54 PM
octopus octopus is online now
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
The irony of this coming from you is sickening. No, I'm sorry, Mr. Republican Troll Who Never Posts Anything Actually Worth Reading, you don't get to lecture us on our tone when talking about people who eagerly voted for the clueless, experience-free candidate white nationalists were hailing as the second coming and minorities were constantly restating their terror of. You don't get to pretend to take the fucking high ground. That's bullshit.
Drunky is correct though. The tone from the left is a shrill annoyance.
  #108  
Old 11-20-2016, 12:55 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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I hope you are annoyed as hell for the next four years.
  #109  
Old 11-20-2016, 01:03 PM
octopus octopus is online now
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I hope you are annoyed as hell for the next four years.
I'm still shaking my head at this election. I remember reading posts from some liberal fools on this very board wishing for Trump in the general. Some changed parties to vote for Trump in the primaries. Well the jokes on them. Do they regret that?

I didn't vote for Trump.

Anyways, yeah I'll be annoyed. Some.

Stranger has had some good posts in this thread but I think he misses the real solution. It's not the candidate that needs fixing. It's the electorate. We live in a country where people can graduate high school and even college functionally illiterate and innumerate.

Last edited by octopus; 11-20-2016 at 01:04 PM.
  #110  
Old 11-20-2016, 01:37 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Speculative what-if: During one of the debates, Clinton turns toward Trump, stares at him in open contempt and says: "We were friends back in New York, when did you turn into such a damn fool?"
  #111  
Old 11-20-2016, 01:56 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
We live in a country where people can graduate high school and even college functionally illiterate and innumerate.
I don't think the issue is literacy, but a lack of critical thinking. It's mindblowing to me how little people actually seem to care about evaluating the evidence for any claim. I saw an anti-vax Facebook post recently that proudly proclaimed, ''I don't care if it's true, I will never get my children vaccinated!''

Wha...? How is it even possible not to care if something's true?
  #112  
Old 11-20-2016, 02:10 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Actually, I lied. I do read your posts. But I disagree that we don't need a Trump Twitter thread. Having one does not mean we're not focusing on the other stuff. And it certainly does not mean we're glorifying what he says. That's a big .
Trump is going to be tweeting stream-of-consciousness horseshit on a daily basis from now until he leaves the Oval Office. None if it is going to be in any way meaningful or convince anyone that they made the wrong decision in voting for him or that he's not fit to be president because that train left the station long ago.

Look, it's not as if your thread on a random message board is going to make any difference to the public at large, and if you want to enjoy some recreational outrage then that's your privilege. But understand that mocking Trump for the stupid things he says makes him look disarmingly clownish to those who already dislike him and just reinforces the belief that he's being constantly attacked by those who follow him, undermining the actually disingeneous, dishonest, and dangerous things he says and does. And it's hard not to make fun of him, in part because he's already a walking cartoon character, and because he is so tempermentally thin skinned that he feels the need to respond to every single insult, which is even funnier. But now that so many (myself included) discounted his potential to tap into voter frustration and dismissed the actual danger that he posed, it's time to stop making distracting fun of the infantile things he squirts out on social media and start highlighting all of the actually threatening things he and the people who he has surrounded himself with are doing.

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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Stranger has had some good posts in this thread but I think he misses the real solution. It's not the candidate that needs fixing. It's the electorate. We live in a country where people can graduate high school and even college functionally illiterate and innumerate.
You can blame the voters all you like, and frankly I think there is a substantial portion of the electorate across lines that has not educated themselves, but quite frankly the Democratic party did a disservice by selecting a candidate for party loyalty rather than wide appeal, and there remains the larger issue that the reinforcement of the notion that you have to vote either one of the two choices results in other parties being marginalized and fronted by useless candidates which further diminishes their message. That the Democrats had to strategize against Sanders to prevent him from hijacking their party (and they rightfully should, given that Sanders was just as much of a demolisher for them as Trump was to the GOP, would have been an even weaker candidate than Clinton, and has now conditionally given his approval to Trump) just shows how narrow the appeal of their selected candidate was and how much of the country they are essentially ignoring.

Stranger
  #113  
Old 11-20-2016, 02:11 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is online now
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I don't think the issue is literacy, but a lack of critical thinking. It's mindblowing to me how little people actually seem to care about evaluating the evidence for any claim. I saw an anti-vax Facebook post recently that proudly proclaimed, ''I don't care if it's true, I will never get my children vaccinated!''

Wha...? How is it even possible not to care if something's true?
Facts, who needs facts??

I agree that the lack of critical thinking is fundamental, but that builds on illiteracy and makes people read a few headlines and tweets and go from there because they don't have the skill or interest in investigating further.

What are we doing here?? We should be NaNo-ing!

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 11-20-2016 at 02:12 PM.
  #114  
Old 11-20-2016, 02:24 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Speculative what-if: During one of the debates, Clinton turns toward Trump, stares at him in open contempt and says: "We were friends back in New York, when did you turn into such a damn fool?"
They were never 'friends'; the Clinton's courted Trump for campaign contributions and Clinton Foundation donations, and would be taken by Trump supporters as just evidence that the Clintons are disingenuous and that Trump is smart enough to trick them.

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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
Wha...? How is it even possible not to care if something's true?
Because people are rationalizing animals, and will agree with claims that correspond to their belief system even if it is demonstrably untrue and counterfactual.

Stranger
  #115  
Old 11-20-2016, 02:41 PM
octopus octopus is online now
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I don't think the issue is literacy, but a lack of critical thinking. It's mindblowing to me how little people actually seem to care about evaluating the evidence for any claim. I saw an anti-vax Facebook post recently that proudly proclaimed, ''I don't care if it's true, I will never get my children vaccinated!''

Wha...? How is it even possible not to care if something's true?
How do you explain religion? But yes critical thinking is definitely lacking.
  #116  
Old 11-20-2016, 02:55 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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What are we doing here?? We should be NaNo-ing!
Yeah, I crashed and burned on the new novel this month. I'm back to revising the old one. Since I write year-round anyway it's probably softened the blow of failure.

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Originally Posted by Stranger
Because people are rationalizing animals, and will agree with claims that correspond to their belief system even if it is demonstrably untrue and counterfactual.
I know this. I acknowledge that, being a human animal, I must also do this. But some of us who know actually bother to try compensating for our blind spots. We actually seek out dissent and try to learn new things. I really fail to understand why that's not a universal ideal. I was expressing something like that to my FIL and he laughed at me. He basically said most people aren't smart enough to weigh the evidence. I don't like the snobbish attitude that the uneducated masses are idiots, but my resistance to that trope has been increasingly challenged this year because it seems like more and more people are going out of their way not to be educated. And some of these people really ought to know better.

(I had a friend turn this around on me by pointing out I was avoiding education about the fact that most people don't care about facts. Sigh.)

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 11-20-2016 at 02:57 PM.
  #117  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:19 PM
crowmanyclouds crowmanyclouds is offline
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"Hamilton was totally overrated, Burr was a better lawyer, a better actor, and a better shot ... and he did it all while confined to a wheelchair!"

CMC fnord!
  #118  
Old 11-20-2016, 03:31 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I don't think the issue is literacy, but a lack of critical thinking. It's mindblowing to me how little people actually seem to care about evaluating the evidence for any claim. I saw an anti-vax Facebook post recently that proudly proclaimed, ''I don't care if it's true, I will never get my children vaccinated!''

Wha...? How is it even possible not to care if something's true?
Because America is a deeply religious country, and that attitude is a necessity for taking religion seriously in the modern work.

People complain about him but Richard Dawkins had a point when he said that one of the reasons religion is inherently destructive is because the habits of thought needed to support it cause bad judgement everywhere else too. A society that admires faith is by definition a society that admires not caring if something is true. That person on Facebook has faith that vaccines cause autism, and she's almost certainly been raised her whole life to think of faith as good.

For that matter, much the same way so many of Trump's followers have faith that he's going to do whatever they fantasize that he's going to do. Despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever.
  #119  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:02 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Here is an illustration of why the media should ignore Trump's inane tweeting and focus on reporting actual scandals. A day after Trump settled the fraud suit against Trump University for $25M (the actual amount that students were defrauded is estimated to be upwards of $40M) the media gets distracted by his response to VP-Elect Pence getting lectured by the cast of Hamilton. To put this into context, just the value of his settlement is about two orders of magnitude greater than the $300k loan that was the centerpiece of the Clinton Whitewater scandal, and makes Nixon's questionable use of his political fund seem about as unethical as failing to cover one's mouth when coughing. In other words, Trump will be entering the White House with more scandal than any president in living memory and having all but admitted to participating in fraud. This is the man that is now entrusted with making policy decisions and statements that can cause markets to rise and fall on a single unmeasured speech or ill-thought action, and Trump seems constitutionally incapable of consideration in either word or deed.

If I thought Trump was actually clever I'd suspect he did it deliberately, but this is more likely just a fortuitous turn of events combined with a media that just can't get enough of that lovable joker who is going to star in the mid-season replacement combination sitcom/reality show "Mr. Trump Goes To Washington". "Oh, what is The Donald up to now? That wacky Donald! Isn't he hilarious? Maybe Tim Allen can play him in the film adaptation!"

This is not normal.

Stranger
  #120  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:04 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
They were never 'friends'; the Clinton's courted Trump for campaign contributions and Clinton Foundation donations, and would be taken by Trump supporters as just evidence that the Clintons are disingenuous and that Trump is smart enough to trick them.
That part of the sentence wasn't what I was expecting to be the point of contention but thanks.
  #121  
Old 11-20-2016, 06:03 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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And I didn't mean to critique you for it; just to point out that any move by Clinton to question Trump's changing motivations would have likely just blown back on her. Donald Trump is the idiot savant of the news pivot; he has no real master plan or strategy but he knows how to keep talking and talking until the conversation switches to something else without every actually answering the question (he literally did this during the debates). Hillary Clinton is the polar opposite; the thinks that by stating facts and carefully crafting her words into a measured explanation as if in a courtroom she'll diffuse the allegations, when what she really gets in response is critics thinking (sometimes correctly) that's she's trying twist them into semantic agreement. Even when she's being totally honest and inarguably factual (as she was many times in the debates) it often came off to people inclined to think of her as an elite as if she was trying to hide something else behind the facts, while Trump is completely unfazed by being caught in a bald lie. He has the countenance of the cat who ate the canary and is so pleased with himself that he engenders admiration from...well, from assholes. But there are a lot of assholes.

Here is an New York Times Magazine article by Maureen Dowd that discusses how the Clinton's initially came to New York and became associated with Trump. Take it with due notice of the author (Dowd came to prominence and won a Pulitzer for writing about the Monica Lewinsky scandal, and has been noted for writing caricatures of public personalities) but it does illustrate how Trump and the Clintons, despite having very different backgrounds, had certain interests in common and a mutual sense of being outsiders in the New York political and social scene. The article doesn't paint a very flattering picture of either, and the fiscal incestuousness of both could give rise to any number of conspiracy theories if you subscribe to the notion that either side really thinks that far ahead (a hypothesis not really substantiated by the actions of either side).

Stranger
  #122  
Old 11-20-2016, 06:04 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Here is an illustration of why the media should ignore Trump's inane tweeting and focus on reporting actual scandals.
Speaking for myself, I don't think the actual scandals have nearly the same emotional hook as the trivial bullshit. That's really what the media has to navigate if it's going to take any ethical responsibility in this fiasco -- how do you give the people something they don't really want? I feel like we've fallen down this rabbit hole of superficial, sensationalist garbage and don't know how to get out.
  #123  
Old 11-20-2016, 06:24 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
Speaking for myself, I don't think the actual scandals have nearly the same emotional hook as the trivial bullshit. That's really what the media has to navigate if it's going to take any ethical responsibility in this fiasco -- how do you give the people something they don't really want? I feel like we've fallen down this rabbit hole of superficial, sensationalist garbage and don't know how to get out.
It's a fair observation; even in a time before round-the-clock news coverage of world events and social media, complex news stories like the Iran-Contra crisis or the subtext behind the Falklands War was difficult to follow, and people largely don't remember details or causes today. It is instructive, however, just how many people have tuned into shows like The Daily Show and Last Week Tonight for actual content, despite the fact that Jon Steward and John Oliver have enthusiastically (and correctly) protested that they are not journalists. The problem with a lot of media stories is that they just come off as repetitive. CNN and MSNBC 'news' shows are largely the same talking heads repeating the same stories with the same tenor over and over again, so even if viewers care about the issues they become jaded and indifferent.

I think the answer is to make viewers feel like they can do something about the story. This gets perilously close to the 'advocacy journalism' that is as divisive as campaigns, but in some respect in a complex story there needs to be someone breaking down the story and providing a narrative with actionable response. There has been a kind of backlash in media where it is okay to prove an 'opinion' (as long as it doesn't hew too far from what is accepted) but not advocate personal action, which is exactly the opposite of what media icons like Ed Murrow advocated. The function of the media shouldn't be to just provide facts (and yes, they are responsible for checking the statements of politicians against actual facts) but to press for action, especially when there is an issue or actor who affects and threatens the public as a whole across partisan lines, such as McCarthyism or global climate change.

Stranger
  #124  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:02 PM
Johnny L.A. Johnny L.A. is online now
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Now that they are completely in power and the Democrats are essentially powerless, there is no one left to blame... they turn on 'liberal America' (e.g. the protesters, dissenters, progressive causes, et cetera).
Yep. They'll blame the Left, Muslims, Mexicans... The usual suspects. And they'll believe it, too.
  #125  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:23 PM
Psychopants Psychopants is offline
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this might be completely inappropriate, and I will trust the mods to do with it what they see fit, but I want to state unequivocally that I now worship Stranger on a Train. I agree with every single word s/he wrote, I am overwhelmed by both the style and the content of his/her posts and I want him/her to be my next-door neighbor, husband, bff, boss or all of the above.
  #126  
Old 11-20-2016, 09:15 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I don't think the issue is literacy, but a lack of critical thinking. It's mindblowing to me how little people actually seem to care about evaluating the evidence for any claim. I saw an anti-vax Facebook post recently that proudly proclaimed, ''I don't care if it's true, I will never get my children vaccinated!''

Wha...? How is it even possible not to care if something's true?
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Because people are rationalizing animals, and will agree with claims that correspond to their belief system even if it is demonstrably untrue and counterfactual.
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
How do you explain religion? But yes critical thinking is definitely lacking.
And besides there's how something being "true" is not the same thing as something being "right"... and people will double down on what feels "right".
  #127  
Old 11-21-2016, 07:14 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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this might be completely inappropriate, and I will trust the mods to do with it what they see fit, but I want to state unequivocally that I now worship Stranger on a Train. I agree with every single word s/he wrote, I am overwhelmed by both the style and the content of his/her posts and I want him/her to be my next-door neighbor, husband, bff, boss or all of the above.
This is not normal.

But yeah, I agree.
  #128  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:37 AM
Chimera Chimera is online now
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The only response to Trump demanding an apology from anyone should be to say that you will apologize as soon as Trump begins apologizing to the people he has attacked and offended.

Since Trump refuses to apologize for anything even when he is clearly in the wrong, he has no business requesting apologies from anyone else.
  #129  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:44 AM
El_Kabong El_Kabong is offline
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The only response to Trump demanding an apology from anyone should be to say that you will apologize as soon as Trump begins apologizing to the people he has attacked and offended.

Since Trump refuses to apologize for anything even when he is clearly in the wrong, he has no business requesting apologies from anyone else.
The SDMB must always be a safe and special place. Chimera was very rude last night to a very large and orange-hued man, Donald J. Trump. Apologize!

Last edited by El_Kabong; 11-21-2016 at 09:44 AM.
  #130  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:39 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Clothahump View Post
And another butt-hurt liberal whine is posted.....
But it's OK if the Prez-elect of the U.S. gets butt hurt and tweets that anything less than an absolute ass kissing is "terribly so unfair" ... or some other whiny bitch bullshit.
  #131  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:44 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Well, now, just consider the source and brush it off. The boy can't help it, my grandma didn't raise him, not his fault.
  #132  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:48 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Well, now, just consider the source and brush it off. The boy can't help it, my grandma didn't raise him, not his fault.
Yeah, they never expected him to escape from the attic
  #133  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:10 AM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Trump is going to be tweeting stream-of-consciousness horseshit on a daily basis from now until he leaves the Oval Office. None if it is going to be in any way meaningful or convince anyone that they made the wrong decision in voting for him or that he's not fit to be president because that train left the station long ago.

Look, it's not as if your thread on a random message board is going to make any difference to the public at large, and if you want to enjoy some recreational outrage then that's your privilege. But understand that mocking Trump for the stupid things he says makes him look disarmingly clownish to those who already dislike him and just reinforces the belief that he's being constantly attacked by those who follow him, undermining the actually disingeneous, dishonest, and dangerous things he says and does. And it's hard not to make fun of him, in part because he's already a walking cartoon character, and because he is so tempermentally thin skinned that he feels the need to respond to every single insult, which is even funnier. But now that so many (myself included) discounted his potential to tap into voter frustration and dismissed the actual danger that he posed, it's time to stop making distracting fun of the infantile things he squirts out on social media and start highlighting all of the actually threatening things he and the people who he has surrounded himself with are doing.

You can blame the voters all you like, and frankly I think there is a substantial portion of the electorate across lines that has not educated themselves, but quite frankly the Democratic party did a disservice by selecting a candidate for party loyalty rather than wide appeal, and there remains the larger issue that the reinforcement of the notion that you have to vote either one of the two choices results in other parties being marginalized and fronted by useless candidates which further diminishes their message. That the Democrats had to strategize against Sanders to prevent him from hijacking their party (and they rightfully should, given that Sanders was just as much of a demolisher for them as Trump was to the GOP, would have been an even weaker candidate than Clinton, and has now conditionally given his approval to Trump) just shows how narrow the appeal of their selected candidate was and how much of the country they are essentially ignoring.

Stranger
It's not like it's one or the other. You can focus on the scandals too. But what I see is a president-elect who is quick to try to suppress freedom of speech. He's tweeted more in recent days about Hamilton and SNL than he has that racist fuck who's been "Heil, Trump"-ing him.
  #134  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:22 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by crowmanyclouds View Post
"hamilton was totally overrated, burr was a better lawyer, a better actor, and a better shot ... And he did it all while confined to a wheelchair!"

cmc fnord!
roflmao
  #135  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:41 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
...He's tweeted more in recent days about Hamilton and SNL than he has that racist fuck who's been "Heil, Trump"-ing him.
Has he said anything at all about them, last few days? Even so much as a "tsk! tsk!".
  #136  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:43 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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After Hamilton and SNL, and his hissy fits, I think we all should start calling him the Whiny Bitch In Chief.

Last edited by SteveG1; 11-22-2016 at 09:43 AM.
  #137  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:55 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
Has he said anything at all about them, last few days? Even so much as a "tsk! tsk!".
"Tsk!" is not on his list of the best words.
  #138  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:18 AM
crowmanyclouds crowmanyclouds is offline
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roflmao
T'ank you!
('Cause I was wondering "Who the fuck is going to get a Raymond "Perry Mason/Ironside" Burr joke?

We're old !)


CMC fnord!
  #139  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:20 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Raymond Burr? Who the fuck is....oh! Right! Godzilla!
  #140  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:25 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Seems in one of his recent tweets, he's asked for Nigel Farage to be the British ambassador to the US. This is the first time in history that an American president or president-elect has asked a country for a specific person to be ambassador.

The queen was not amused, nor are the British public from what I hear.
  #141  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:37 PM
El_Kabong El_Kabong is offline
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
Seems in one of his recent tweets, he's asked for Nigel Farage to be the British ambassador to the US. This is the first time in history that an American president or president-elect has asked a country for a specific person to be ambassador.

The queen was not amused, nor are the British public from what I hear.
Yeah, I'd have gone for Helen Mirren.
  #142  
Old 11-23-2016, 01:09 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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You would if she'd let you, you slut!

Last edited by elucidator; 11-23-2016 at 01:09 AM.
  #143  
Old 11-23-2016, 03:39 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
Seems in one of his recent tweets, he's asked for Nigel Farage to be the British ambassador to the US. This is the first time in history that an American president or president-elect has asked a country for a specific person to be ambassador.

The queen was not amused, nor are the British public from what I hear.
That's not the half of it.

Steven Bannon (Trump's brain?) arranged for Nigel Farage and a man named Raheem Kassam to have a photo-op with him in Trump Tower. This was Bannon The Nazi, Trump's "golden boy".

Kassam is a Breitbart writer and former Farage aide who told Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister of Scotland, to “tape her mouth shut – and her legs, so she can’t reproduce”. First Minister Sturgeon had suffered a devastating miscarriage and lost a child.
  #144  
Old 11-23-2016, 04:47 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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No snark intended, Steve1, but if you're gonna say somebody said something that loathsome, you gotta cite it.

ETA: It Googles. There's a hit there that suggests Blightbart defended him on it, but I ain't touching it. Mental hygiene. So, maybe not.

Last edited by elucidator; 11-23-2016 at 04:52 PM.
  #145  
Old 11-24-2016, 03:52 AM
BigT BigT is offline
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Scrolling up, I notice that someone quoted Drunky Smurf addressing me. I don't know what he said, as I don't read what the guy writes. However, apparently I was remiss in not informing him that he is on my ignore list, and thus I will not read what he says.

He is basically useless to this board. He doesn't even work as the type of person you need to try and understand. You're probably getting too drunk for your own good, seeing as you become too incoherent at times. But, hey, it's your life, and you can do what you want.

I've decided to focus more on convincing those that are open to being convinced, and not the people who have been here for years but still haven't changed their tune.
  #146  
Old 11-24-2016, 03:59 AM
BigT BigT is offline
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Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train View Post
Here is an illustration of why the media should ignore Trump's inane tweeting and focus on reporting actual scandals. A day after Trump settled the fraud suit against Trump University for $25M (the actual amount that students were defrauded is estimated to be upwards of $40M) the media gets distracted by his response to VP-Elect Pence getting lectured by the cast of Hamilton.

This is not normal.

Stranger
The problem is, no one really cared about the scandal news even before the tweet. Yeah, it was bad, but it was something we already knew would happen.

I don't think you can force people to care about things they don't care about. If this is what they care about, then I think we should use this. It's him trying to destroy freedom of speech, again. It's him showing how he can't handle the job. He actually said that the theater should be a safe space--that's really useful against his followers who hate safe spaces.

I'm not saying we ignore these other things. I'm saying we have to pay attention to what people think is important. Literally anything can be a weapon against him.

And, in the meantime, we need to be able to keep our spirits up, and laughter can help with that.

Last edited by BigT; 11-24-2016 at 04:00 AM.
  #147  
Old 11-24-2016, 07:43 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Scrolling up, I notice that someone quoted Drunky Smurf addressing me. I don't know what he said, as I don't read what the guy writes. However, apparently I was remiss in not informing him that he is on my ignore list, and thus I will not read what he says.

He is basically useless to this board. He doesn't even work as the type of person you need to try and understand. You're probably getting too drunk for your own good, seeing as you become too incoherent at times. But, hey, it's your life, and you can do what you want.

I've decided to focus more on convincing those that are open to being convinced, and not the people who have been here for years but still haven't changed their tune.
Quote:
ig·nore
iɡˈnôr/
verb
refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.
"he ignored her outraged question"
synonyms: disregard, take no notice of, pay no attention to, pay no heed to; turn a blind eye to, turn a deaf ear to, tune out
"he ignored the customers"
snub, slight, spurn, shun, disdain, look right through, pass over, look past;
informalgive someone the brush-off, give someone the cold shoulder
"he was ignored by the journalists"
set aside, pay no attention to, take no account of;
break, contravene, fail to comply with, fail to observe, disregard, disobey, breach, defy, flout;
informalpooh-pooh
"doctors ignored her husband's instructions"
fail to consider (something significant).
HTH.
  #148  
Old 11-24-2016, 09:31 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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No snark intended, Steve1, but if you're gonna say somebody said something that loathsome, you gotta cite it.

ETA: It Googles. There's a hit there that suggests Blightbart defended him on it, but I ain't touching it. Mental hygiene. So, maybe not.
Yeah, I forgot to link a cite. But after many years of "on-and-off" here, I've learned that linking a cite is useless. The "Noise Machine" guys here (you know who) are still puking up the same right wing borderline Nazi (oops sorry alt right) bullshit they always have, and facts have fuck all to do with anything.
  #149  
Old 11-24-2016, 10:27 AM
SaharaTea SaharaTea is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I don't think you can force people to care about things they don't care about. If this is what they care about, then I think we should use this. It's him trying to destroy freedom of speech, again. It's him showing how he can't handle the job. He actually said that the theater should be a safe space--that's really useful against his followers who hate safe spaces.

I'm not saying we ignore these other things. I'm saying we have to pay attention to what people think is important. Literally anything can be a weapon against him.
I agree with this. Most Americans want Trump to STFU with the tweets, and it's one of the only things that seems to bother my conservative friends on Facebook right now.
  #150  
Old 11-24-2016, 10:35 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Originally Posted by SaharaTea View Post
I agree with this. Most Americans want Trump to STFU with the tweets, and it's one of the only things that seems to bother my conservative friends on Facebook right now.
Maybe this is Trump's secret plan to defeat ISIS.

He's gonna tweet them to death.
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