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  #51  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:50 PM
Spiderman Spiderman is offline
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His estate is worth $0...except for a $1.3 million dollar house. Isn't the house part of the estate?
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  #52  
Old 04-29-2017, 10:43 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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It means his debts exceeded his assets. Happens to a lot of athletes who aren't paying lawyers, too.
  #53  
Old 09-21-2017, 06:32 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Aaron Hernandez, the former New England Patriots tight end who committed suicide in April while serving a life sentence for murder, was found to have a severe form of C.T.E., the degenerative brain disease linked to repeated head trauma that has been found in more than 100 former N.F.L. players.

Researchers who examined the brain determined it was “the most severe case they had ever seen in someone of Aaron’s age,” said a lawyer for Hernandez in announcing the result at a news conference on Thursday. Hernandez was 27.
So could it have been CTE rather than him being an evil person was what caused his violence?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/21/s...cte-brain.html
  #54  
Old 09-21-2017, 07:18 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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I think he was just an asshole.
  #55  
Old 09-21-2017, 08:35 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace57
The one bright moment was his acquittal on a double murder charge April 14.
If that's the bright moment of his life, that's a very blighted life.


I'm gonna say I would be pleased.
  #56  
Old 09-21-2017, 09:23 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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So could it have been CTE rather than him being an evil person was what caused his violence?
I'm not a medical professional but my speculation is that the brain injuries didn't turn Hernandez into a violent man. It just turned him into a man who couldn't control his violence anymore.
  #57  
Old 09-21-2017, 10:43 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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I'm not surprised they found CTE.

The claims he had severe CTE is quite astonishing. He only played three seasons.

They need to research his concussion history in college and high school. I'd also like to know the sample size for the claim his was the most severe they've seen for a man that age. How many dead NFL players (in their late twenties) have they autopsied? I bet it's not many.

I agree his illness has little bearing on the murder case. Aaron got into trouble in college and always had an interest in gang culture. He was in the Bloods.

He was a violent thug before CTE.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.bosto...eet_gang%3famp

Quote:
Researchers who examined the brain determined it was “the most severe case they had ever seen in someone of Aaron’s age,” said a lawyer for Hernandez in announcing the result at a news conference on Thursday. Hernandez was 27.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-21-2017 at 10:48 PM.
  #58  
Old 09-21-2017, 10:49 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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It's highly unusual for an athlete to die at 27. It does happen, shootings, car wrecks or suicide in Aaron's case.

The sample size has to be very, very small. Perhaps a sample size of just one?

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-21-2017 at 10:53 PM.
  #59  
Old 09-21-2017, 10:57 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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He's at the bottom of the 27 Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club


His violence (including a possible double shooting) goes back at least to 2007 when he was 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_...z#Legal_issues
  #60  
Old 09-21-2017, 11:45 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Pfft. Just an asshole.
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  #61  
Old 09-21-2017, 11:46 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
He's at the bottom of the 27 Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club


His violence (including a possible double shooting) goes back at least to 2007 when he was 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_...z#Legal_issues
Long before he could have developed CTE from Football.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-21-2017 at 11:47 PM.
  #62  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:11 AM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Long before he could have developed CTE from Football.
No:
Playing tackle football under the age of 12 exposes children to repetitive head impacts that may double their risk of developing behavioral problems and triple their chances of suffering depression later in life
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...TDP/story.html

High School Football Can Lead to Long-Term Brain Damage, Study Says
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schoo...l_players.html
  #63  
Old 09-22-2017, 01:01 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
It's highly unusual for an athlete to die at 27. It does happen, shootings, car wrecks or suicide in Aaron's case.

The sample size has to be very, very small. Perhaps a sample size of just one?
The sample size is now at least four.

Bengals WR Chris Henry died at age 26 when he fell out of the back of a pickup truck, during a domestic dispute with his fiancee. He'd had a number of disciplinary and behavior problems while with the Bengals. An autopsy showed that he was already suffering from CTE, though he'd never been diagnosed as having received a concussion.

University of Pennsylvania DE Owen Thomas hanged himself at age 21. He, too, had never been diagnosed with a concussion, but had CTE.

And, an unnamed former NCAA Division I linebacker, who had a history of concussions, died of cardiac arrest at age 25. His case was described in a JAMA Neurology article; while it was apparently not a factor in his death, he, too, had CTE.
  #64  
Old 09-22-2017, 01:36 AM
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Soccer players have also been diagnosed with CTE, so that's one thin which is not safer. No idea about a Rugby, but won't be surprised. Ditto ice hockey.

I have read some Sports doctors say that cricket (a non contact sport), might see incidences of it, since top players are struck on the head multiple times a season. Baseball?
  #65  
Old 09-22-2017, 02:14 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Double Post.

Last edited by AK84; 09-22-2017 at 02:16 AM.
  #66  
Old 09-22-2017, 05:48 AM
madsircool madsircool is online now
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Originally Posted by PastTense View Post
No:
Playing tackle football under the age of 12 exposes children to repetitive head impacts that may double their risk of developing behavioral problems and triple their chances of suffering depression later in life
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...TDP/story.html

High School Football Can Lead to Long-Term Brain Damage, Study Says
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/schoo...l_players.html
AH was a gang member. He got into fights. It is impossible to know how his brain got injured. He is dead because he is s coward and couldn't take life in prison.
  #67  
Old 09-22-2017, 06:21 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Long before he could have developed CTE from Football.
When did he start to play football, and how long does it take to develop CTE?
  #68  
Old 09-22-2017, 07:00 AM
kiz kiz is offline
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When did he start to play football, and how long does it take to develop CTE?
He probably started as a kid. CTE, I believe, is one of those conditions which grows worse over time. Repeated blows to a kid's developing brain can wreak havoc later on despite wearing a helmet.
  #69  
Old 09-22-2017, 08:42 AM
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I also wonder about kids from families that hit their children or throw them against walls, etc.

Head trauma from any source can start the process of permanent brain damage.
  #70  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:14 AM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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He probably started as a kid. CTE, I believe, is one of those conditions which grows worse over time. Repeated blows to a kid's developing brain can wreak havoc later on despite wearing a helmet.
Yeah, a lot of my patients had a LOT of concussions and other assorted head trauma as kids, both from abuse and from life on the streets.

It tends to disinhibit a lot of bad behavioral urges, unfortunately.
  #71  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:18 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Yeah, a lot of my patients had a LOT of concussions and other assorted head trauma as kids, both from abuse and from life on the streets.

It tends to disinhibit a lot of bad behavioral urges, unfortunately.
But of the ones you listed, only one is encouraged by proud parents and cheering crowds that pay to see t happen.
  #72  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:19 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Soccer players have also been diagnosed with CTE, so that's one thin which is not safer. No idea about a Rugby, but won't be surprised. Ditto ice hockey.
Bob Probert, Rick Rypien among others.

http://www.tsn.ca/four-junior-hockey...-says-1.730445
  #73  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:23 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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We are teaching our children in many sports how to "take a hit", but nobody tells them that once you take it, it's yours for the rest of your life.
  #74  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:28 AM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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But of the ones you listed, only one is encouraged by proud parents and cheering crowds that pay to see t happen.
I'm sooooo glad my parents weren't sports parents.
  #75  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:48 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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Yeah, a lot of my patients had a LOT of concussions and other assorted head trauma as kids, both from abuse and from life on the streets.

It tends to disinhibit a lot of bad behavioral urges, unfortunately.
I presume the most prominent bad behavioral urge is violence. Aside from that?

Does it mainly occur through decreased activity in the prefrontal cortex? How do those people (and those who interact with them) cope with that?
  #76  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:49 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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I think we're losing perspective on school sports.

I'd guesstimate at least 20% of students participated in contact sports. Many play multiple sports. I played basketball and ran track. I hit the floor a few times and got my bell rung. Thankfully it rarely happened.

Any rough guesses on how many students (in contact sports) that would be in the past 80 years? A 100 million? 75 million? There's no accurate number.

How many of your high school friends or teammates exhibit any CTE symptoms?

For me the answer is ZERO. I conceed there maybe a few thousand in that group of 100 million that got head injuries and developed CTE. The people in traffic accidents is much higher.

Society would certainly notice if a 100 million people came out of school with brain injuries. CTE behavior is very obvious. These people have gone on to rich and fullfilling lives. Raised families and loved their grandkids.

The most lingering sports injuries from high school are knee injuries. You often hear of a guy with a trick knee that locks up and causes them to fall. Modern orthoscopic surgery has made that less common today. I had my knee scoped a few years after college.

I totally agree CTE is a concern for college athletes and certainly pros.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-22-2017 at 09:54 AM.
  #77  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:56 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
How many of your high school friends or teammates exhibit any CTE symptoms?
For me the answer is ZERO.
When did you conduct your study, and how did you get their medical records?
  #78  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:00 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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It's called common sense.

80 plus years of high school sports.

There's no way CTE symptoms wouldn't have been observed within the population.

Not to mention all the autopsies done in the past 80 years. Examining the brain is part of any autopsy. Medical examiners would have seen that damage in the brain tissue dissection decades ago.


Pro sports is entirely different. Players are bigger and stronger. They've had 12 plus years of impact on their bodies.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-22-2017 at 10:04 AM.
  #79  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:03 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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I totally agree CTE is a concern for college athletes and certainly pros.
If that is when your concern starts, then it is far too late to just be concerned. For the vast majority of athletes their careers don't start in college, they start in gradeschool and high school, back when skulls are still soft and bones are still connecting.
  #80  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:06 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
It's called common sense.

80 plus years of high school sports.
It's called believing what you want to believe without even bothering to find out, and and ignoring the actual studies that have come out on this subject.
  #81  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:12 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Not to mention all the autopsies done in the past 80 years. Examining the brain is part of any autopsy. Medical examiners would have seen that damage in the brain tissue dissection decades ago.
Most people don't have autopsies done after they die. And, CTE has to be discovered via microscopic examination of brain tissue -- which, unless the person doing the autopsy has reason to believe that brain damage was a factor, may not be done.

It wasn't until the past 15 years or so, with the work of Dr. Bennet Omalu and others, that researchers and physicians were even thinking to look at the brains of former players in this way.
  #82  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:44 AM
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I don't know what to say. 80 plus years of contact sports in school is a massive sample size. There's a lot of perfectly well adjusted former school athletes that went on to fullfilling careers and lives afterwards.

I don't dispute they are seeing something in microscopic examinations of brain tissue.

But we know from observing our own relatives and classmates that they don't exhibit extreme CTE symptoms. Whatever CTE they have isn't affecting their lives. It's nothing like the horror stories former pro athletes tell.

Many of these behaviors are common in people that never played sports.


I understand with CTE these get extreme
Quote:
Some of the possible signs and symptoms of CTE may include:
Difficulty thinking (cognitive impairment)
Impulsive behavior.
Depression or apathy.
Short-term memory loss.
Difficulty planning and carrying out tasks (executive function)
Emotional instability.
Substance abuse.
Suicidal thoughts or behavior.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-22-2017 at 10:49 AM.
  #83  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:50 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Here is some actual knowledge about CTE injuries:
CTE found in 99% of studied brains from deceased NFL players
Quote:
Out of 202 deceased former football players total -- a combination of high school, college and professional players -- CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177, the study said. The disease was identified in 110 out of 111 former NFL players. It was also found in three of the 14 high school players and 48 of the 53 college players.
And from the noted doctor that originally discovered the link between CTE and NFL players: CTE NFL Doctor says children playing football is child abuse
Quote:
A doctor who discovered the link between CTE brain disease and the NFL said that letting children play football should be considered child abuse.

Dr Bennet Omalu warned parents against allowing their children under the age of 18, to play the sport, claiming that there was no way to make it safe against brain trauma.

The noted neuropathologist, portrayed by Will Smith in the film Concussion, found staggering evidence that NFL players sustained long-term head trauma with declining mental capabilities, due to the sport.
  #84  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:55 AM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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It's called common sense.
The entire reason we have science is because common sense isn't good enough.

Try again.
  #85  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:59 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I don't know what to say. 80 plus years of contact sports in school is a massive sample size. There's a lot of perfectly well adjusted former school athletes that went on to fullfilling careers and lives afterwards.

I don't dispute they are seeing something in microscopic examinations of brain tissue.

But we know from observing our own relatives and classmates that they don't exhibit extreme CTE symptoms. Whatever CTE they have isn't affecting their lives. It's nothing like the horror stories former pro athletes tell.

Many of these behaviors are common in people that never played sports.


I understand with CTE these get extreme
I guess that something that wasn't looked for for eighty years because the proper equipment didn't exist yet, combined with a monetary need to downplay injuries of this sort means that it just didn't exist before the truth was uncovered, right?
"I understand that with CTE these get extreme" is quite a jump from what that link actually said:
Quote:
Some of the possible signs and symptoms of CTE may include...
(italics mine) You keep saying that it's obvious when someone has CTE injuries, but that's just not true at all.
  #86  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:05 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Here is some actual knowledge about CTE injuries:
CTE found in 99% of studied brains from deceased NFL players
Just to note that that study, while alarming, isn't a random sample of former players. That 99% figure is of players whose brains were closely studied after their deaths, to look for CTE -- players (or their families, or their doctors) who believed that something was going wrong, and requested that the brains be studied.

The incidence of CTE among *all* former NFL players is likely to be something less than 99% (though, I believe, probably still *far* higher than what one would see among the general population).
  #87  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:07 AM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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But we know from observing our own relatives and classmates that they don't exhibit extreme CTE symptoms. Whatever CTE they have isn't affecting their lives. It's nothing like the horror stories former pro athletes tell.
You've never seen former star athletes from high school who seemingly had it all, but never managed to make anything of themselves, and bummed around with dead end jobs and turned to the bottle? I think Bruce Springsteen alone has written 14 songs about this phenomenon.
  #88  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:13 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Just to note that that study, while alarming, isn't a random sample of former players. That 99% figure is of players whose brains were closely studied after their deaths, to look for CTE -- players (or their families, or their doctors) who believed that something was going wrong, and requested that the brains be studied.

The incidence of CTE among *all* former NFL players is likely to be something less than 99% (though, I believe, probably still *far* higher than what one would see among the general population).
Acknowledged, but I just wanted to add that study to the others out there.
  #89  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:16 AM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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It's called common sense.

80 plus years of high school sports.

There's no way CTE symptoms wouldn't have been observed within the population.

Not to mention all the autopsies done in the past 80 years. Examining the brain is part of any autopsy. Medical examiners would have seen that damage in the brain tissue dissection decades ago.


Pro sports is entirely different. Players are bigger and stronger. They've had 12 plus years of impact on their bodies.
THis whole post is filled with unsupported declarations of, shall we say, dubious veracity, but your last paragraph takes the cake. Exactly what percentage of people who play in the NFL do you think play for "12 plus years"? Did you pick that number because you thought it was somehow representative of reality? It isn't. The average NFL career lasts just 3.3 years. The number of people playing for "12 plus years" in pro football is amazingly small.
  #90  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:20 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
THis whole post is filled with unsupported declarations of, shall we say, dubious veracity, but your last paragraph takes the cake. Exactly what percentage of people who play in the NFL do you think play for "12 plus years"? Did you pick that number because you thought it was somehow representative of reality? It isn't. The average NFL career lasts just 3.3 years. The number of people playing for "12 plus years" in pro football is amazingly small.
To be fair, I suspect that he was including playing at lower levels in that "12 plus years."

If we make the assumption that an NFL player played the game throughout high school and college (a reasonable assumption, in most but not all cases), and possibly in middle school, that'd mean that the typical professional player might have 8-10 years of football in his past before joining the NFL.
  #91  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:34 AM
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Soccer players have also been diagnosed with CTE, so that's one thin which is not safer. No idea about a Rugby, but won't be surprised. Ditto ice hockey.
Soccer players use their head a lot - I was just at the US Open Cup match (go SKC!), and there was one sequence where there were 8 (or more - a lot at any rate) head strikes in a row - it really looked like a volleyball game with the ball never touching the ground.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:36 AM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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Aceplace57: do you concede an association between cigarette smoking and cancer? If you do, do you realize how long it took for the medical world and the general public to recognize this association?
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Mechanisation and mass marketing towards the end of the 19th century popularised the cigarette habit, however, causing a global lung cancer epidemic. Cigarettes were recognised as the cause of the epidemic in the 1940s and 1950s, with the confluence of studies from epidemiology, animal experiments, cellular pathology and chemical analytics. Cigarette manufacturers disputed this evidence, as part of an orchestrated conspiracy to salvage cigarette sales. Propagandising the public proved successful, judging from secret tobacco industry measurements of the impact of denialist propaganda. As late as 1960 only one-third of all US doctors believed that the case against cigarettes had been established. The cigarette is the deadliest artefact in the history of human civilisation.
http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/21/2/87

The same could well be true with school sports and C.T.E.
  #93  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Folacin View Post
Soccer players use their head a lot - I was just at the US Open Cup match (go SKC!), and there was one sequence where there were 8 (or more - a lot at any rate) head strikes in a row - it really looked like a volleyball game with the ball never touching the ground.
Remember that it isn't just head injuries that cause CTE. Any sudden impact to the body that can make the head jerk around adds to the problem...and the damage is cumulative, so you have to start the clock at when a person first starts these activities.
  #94  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:41 AM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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It's called common sense.
Sense is never common.

Common sense in practice is nothing more than a bunch of biases collected over the years and assumed to be true. Scientific examination of those assumed truths is the only way to establish if they are true. A very high degree of them are found to be false. Yet these cherished beliefs continue to be strongly held by many, despite objective evidence to the contrary.

The thinking person lets go of their biases and examines the evidence. The non-thinking person rejects the evidence in favor of their belief.

Which are you?
  #95  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:53 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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To be fair, I suspect that he was including playing at lower levels in that "12 plus years."

If we make the assumption that an NFL player played the game throughout high school and college (a reasonable assumption, in most but not all cases), and possibly in middle school, that'd mean that the typical professional player might have 8-10 years of football in his past before joining the NFL.
Exactly.

I was counting junior high, high school, college, and few years in the NFL. That's a lot of time for cumulative head injuries. No one walks away from the NFL completely unscathed.

Everyone agrees that more head injuries results in a worse outcome in the person's later life? Right?

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-22-2017 at 11:57 AM.
  #96  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:58 AM
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Exactly.

I was counting junior high, high school, college, and few years in the NFL. That's a lot of time for cumulative head injuries. No one walks away from the NFL completely unscathed.

Everyone agrees that more head injuries results in a worse outcome in the person's later life?
Since you haven't defined what you mean by "later life", I cannot agree. How can a head injury when the skull is thinner and softer and the brain is still developing be less injurious than a brain injury when one is an adult?

edited to add: The times in history when "everyone agreed" can be counted on the fingers of one foot.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 09-22-2017 at 12:00 PM.
  #97  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:01 PM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Yeah, a lot of my patients had a LOT of concussions and other assorted head trauma as kids, both from abuse and from life on the streets.

It tends to disinhibit a lot of bad behavioral urges, unfortunately.
Qadgop - a question, Doctor: are you saying that CTE is an "accelerant"? So if someone grows up a Bad Seed, acquiring CTE is only going to reinforce those Bad Seed behaviors, yes?
  #98  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:42 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Qadgop - a question, Doctor: are you saying that CTE is an "accelerant"? So if someone grows up a Bad Seed, acquiring CTE is only going to reinforce those Bad Seed behaviors, yes?
Just making an observation. But I wager that for some, it brings out behavior they'd have been able to suppress had they not had brain injuries.

A lot of being an adult is due to the brain finally getting mature enough to keep in check its own more primitive drives.

The total person and their behavior is the result of many, many different factors though.
  #99  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:54 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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New article about how Football Can Damage Kids' Brains — Even If They Don't Get Concussions.
Quote:
Kids who start playing tackle football before the age of 12 are at much higher risk of developing behavioral and emotional troubles as adults, according to a new study.

Researchers found much higher rates of depression, apathy and other neurological problems among those who started young — whether or not they suffered concussions.
  #100  
Old 09-25-2017, 11:14 AM
jaycat jaycat is offline
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Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
The entire reason we have science is because common sense isn't good enough. . . .
I thought it was the other way around.

Last edited by jaycat; 09-25-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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