Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:17 PM
bdaswat bdaswat is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
Also, I'm not a conservative at all. I'm a libertarian if that's of any relevance. I think Both parties suck. So you can make assumptions about me without knowing my character. Nice, now you're contradicting yourselves. I'm done with this eyewash. Feel free to bash me more, because I won't see it, and I know thats how your seething snake-oil salesmen are.
Advertisements  
  #102  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:19 PM
Revenant Threshold Revenant Threshold is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 12,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
Feel free to bash me more, because I won't see it, and I know thats how your seething snake-oil salesmen are.
.....blind?
  #103  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:21 PM
MEBuckner MEBuckner is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
...you Liberal Scumbags...

...You psycho liberal nuts....
Moderator's Warning: Bdaswat, the rules for the Great Debates forum do not permit personal insults against other posters. The statements quoted above definitely violate this rule, several other portions of your posts probably do or come right up against breaking that rule, and the entire post is more of a "rant" or "flame".

The rules against personal insults and "flame" attacks apply in Great Debates and all the forums on this board outside of our BBQ Pit. If you feel you absolutely must flame or attack another poster, you must open a thread in the Pit to do so, not post the attack here.
  #104  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:24 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central NJ (near Bree)
Posts: 27,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
Again "What Exit" why don't you respond to anything I said instead of commenting on my "level of maturity" (see that's another typical liberal tactic, discredit me so you don't have to respond to the truth)

Water boarding is simply the "bandwagon" story of the year. If you are en enemy of this country and have information that could potentially save the lives of the TRULY innocent (even if it's 1 person), I don't care what they do to the guy.
But I did respond in addition to commenting on your second post.

As to the Water Boarding, I am a Republican, Reagan supporting & I served in Reagan's Navy moderate* that thinks the USA needs to maintain the moral high ground while using our military force where needed to make the world safer and a better place. This particular war in Iraq had nothing to do with our security, though if it had been handled better, perhaps we would have at least made the world a better place.

Back to Water Boarding; it is torture and the USA is not suppose to use torture. It is wrong and violates that for which our country stands. There is no excuse for executive level support of this torture. None at all.

Once you sink to the level of your enemies, are you any better?

Jim

* I would even make an attempt to defend an opinion that Nixon was a damn good President despite being morally corrupt and a vicious pit bull.
  #105  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:24 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 21,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
Water boarding is simply the "bandwagon" story of the year. If you are en enemy of this country and have information that could potentially save the lives of the TRULY innocent (even if it's 1 person), I don't care what they do to the guy.
Seriously, what is your point? Are you trying to say that waterboarding isn't as bad as anyone says, but it does make terrorists give up secrets?
  #106  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:26 PM
Gorsnak Gorsnak is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Saskaboom
Posts: 8,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
What is wrong with you people? This just proves your libs that flood the internet with Liberal propaganda are truly cave dwellers truly disconnected with the outside world. Clearly my statement about $100,000 was a figure of speech, not a real offer firstly.

Again "What Exit" why don't you respond to anything I said instead of commenting on my "level of maturity" (see that's another typical liberal tactic, discredit me so you don't have to respond to the truth)

Saying that I need to "know" the OP and have a relationship or whatever to "understand and comment" on the issue is absurd. I don't need to know anything about the guy to comment on the believability of his story.

Water boarding is simply the "bandwagon" story of the year. If you are en enemy of this country and have information that could potentially save the lives of the TRULY innocent (even if it's 1 person), I don't care what they do to the guy.
Then why would you care if waterboarding were indeed as horrible as described in the OP?

No one thinks that you need to know the history of the board to comment on things; we're just saying that you've made some assumptions that are counter to reality. I'm not trying to smear you. I'm just trying to enlighten you.

And in that vein, another Scylla post:

And here we have an entire thread discussing the White House and its stance on torture. Friend Scylla joins the discussion on page 2. I see that I erred slightly in my recollection of his past stance on torture - he had believed waterboarding was torture, but he did defend Bush et al with regards to torture at some length.

And just for fun, The horror of Blimps.
  #107  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:29 PM
Hostile Dialect Hostile Dialect is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD)
Posts: 10,038
Dnftt/s.
  #108  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:36 PM
MEBuckner MEBuckner is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hostile Dialect
Dnftt/s.
Moderator's Warning: Hostile Dialect, accusations of trolling belong in the Pit, not in Great Debates.
  #109  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:49 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 15,448
Scylla, your post is seriously one of the most freaked up things I've ever read on the Dope. I'm all for fighting ignorance and everything... but yeesh. I didn't really have a problem before accepting waterboarding as a horrible and inhumane practice, but the OP really just cements it into my mind in an unforgettable way. I am really glad you are still alive to tell the tale. Please be safe in the future!
  #110  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:50 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 56,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by What Exit?
...* I would even make an attempt to defend an opinion that Nixon was a damn good President despite being morally corrupt and a vicious pit bull. [/SIZE]
"That aside, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
  #111  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:28 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central NJ (near Bree)
Posts: 27,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator
"That aside, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
  #112  
Old 12-22-2007, 09:19 PM
ratbastid ratbastid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2
This thread disturbed me enough I had to register a guest account to reply. Talk about "don't try this at home"!

My question, Scylla, is this: If you were a captive of people who were going to waterboard you unless you "talked", I presume you'd do just about anything to prevent that from happening again? I mean, you mentioned selling your children, so I have to think you'd "talk". Would your "talk" necessarily have ANYTHING to do with facts, or would you just be saying whatever you calculated to be most likely to prevent more waterboarding?

Thanks for the very vivid depiction of the experience. I've been under the misunderstanding that the impact of waterboarding is mostly psychological--like people are being threatened with ACTUAL drowning and don't know it's set up to be "safe" for them. I get it, though. This practice triggers reflexive panic at a completely non-intellectual level, and a victim would do anything to stop it.
  #113  
Old 12-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Savannah Savannah is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Greater Victoria, BC
Posts: 4,668
This has hit Metafilter.
  #114  
Old 12-22-2007, 10:45 PM
Tristan Tristan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leaffan for president!
Posts: 5,848
Not that I expect bdaswat to reply, but Syclla's statements in reference to Liberal were friendly digs at another poster on this board.

Last year I read some posts on a Zombie themed board I read, wherein a member broke his teeth biting a raw roast through denim jeans.

Scylla, you don't know me from adam, but you win, and you get another notch of my respect. OUTSTANDING efforts to combat ignorance, going above and beyond. Well done.

ps- Don't do it again. Sheesh.
  #115  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:01 PM
ParentalAdvisory ParentalAdvisory is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Chicago Area
Posts: 5,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
Yea... Attack me instead of attacking the issue at hand.

Typical.

PS if that guy's a conservative, I must be a fascist.
The issue at hand is one poster that took it upon himself to see what the true effects of waterboarding really are, and to see if the conclusion can be made that it is torture. Because if you listen to the media, on one hand it is extreme torture. And on the other, it's a theme park ride that isn't harmful and is fun for kids. The OP wanted to know the truth first hand. That's it, end of story.
  #116  
Old 12-23-2007, 12:15 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 56,493
Just to be clear here, so there's no chance of a misunderstanding. There is no question, none whatsoever, that massive electric shock to the testicles is torturous and hugely painful. Affidavits as long as your arm. Massive amounts of corroboration, expert testimony, anectdotal evidence. The question has been entirely resolved. No doubt about it. None.

Last edited by elucidator; 12-23-2007 at 12:16 AM.
  #117  
Old 12-23-2007, 12:41 AM
NurseCarmen NurseCarmen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Zen Arcade
Posts: 8,288
When I was ten, I went sailing with my older brother. We tipped. He told me to swim to the end of the mast and swim it into the wind, so we could right it easier. My life jacket got caught on the mast as the boat began to turtle (to turtle means the boat is upside down, mast pointing down). The more we turtled, the more I slid up the mast, and the more I became stuck. The tension on the life jacket's straps and the fact that it was the seventies, and big metal clips were how life jackets were held together combined to make it so my little ten year old hands had no chance to free myself.

I wasn't just drowning. I was ten, and I knew I was dying. I had hit that magic point, and my body was involuntarily convulsing. I had lost all control.

Then my brother managed to right the boat enough that I caught a breath. He yelled at me for not pointing the mast in the right direction. He yelled at me to get over to the dagger board and help. I was worthless. I was shaking, and when he did right the boat, he had to drag me onto it. I was ten, and I'm pretty sure with hindsight that I was having a nervous breakdown. I had been broken.

That was around thirty years ago. There is no way in hell that I would volunteer to get that feeling again. It still scares the hell out of me just thinking about it.

Dude. Ask us if you plan on any more stunts like this. We might just give you some insight as to why you shouldn't!
  #118  
Old 12-23-2007, 02:22 AM
evi1joe evi1joe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1
Politics aside, your description totally sold me against waterboarding.

Even though I'm very liberal (Obama/Feingold '08!!), I thought the waterboarding debate was more crap-liberal-politics than anything. It didn't sound all that bad compared to breaking fingers, drilling holes, etc., so I figured it was being overblown as a sensationalizing sound byte to criticize Bush (since the masses prefer simple sound bytes to genuine analysis and thoughtful critique--today's masses are to informed citizens, what Bush is to presidents, what Britney Spears is to music, what McDonalds is to food, etc.) . In any case, thanks for the write-up. From reading a few posts, I'm fairly certain that I'm as intelligent as you--and most likely more so since I don't waterboard myself--however, I'm definitely not as tough (though I do carry a 9mm that is just as tough as any man...I know, I know, I'm a bad liberal in that sense).

I'd be interested to see if you have any psychological fallout from the ordeal. Because you did it to yourself, I'd think you'd be alright...but it sounds like it shook you to the core (so maybe take it slow out there for awhile).
  #119  
Old 12-23-2007, 02:24 AM
andros andros is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Dejagore
Posts: 9,242
.
Thank you, Scylla.
.
  #120  
Old 12-23-2007, 03:05 AM
appleciders appleciders is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 6,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
These people that are water-boarded 90% of the time are terrorist caught in the act of war crimes, NOT random citizens.
So you're ok with the 10% who are just average Joes?

Oh, and the 100 mile runs aren't that crazy. I mean, I think Scylla's nuts for doing them, but they're real. Anyway, Scylla, which one are you running?
  #121  
Old 12-23-2007, 04:50 AM
Frankenstein Monster Frankenstein Monster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 549
Here's a post on daily kos that agrees with Scylla's account.
  #122  
Old 12-23-2007, 07:27 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 19,140
Probably the most important OP I've seen on this board. There are no ends that justify these means. You do not fight terrorism by becoming an outlaw nation.
  #123  
Old 12-23-2007, 08:11 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,363
Couple of things

Two days later, it doesn't seem all that bad. I mean it's a little water up the nose, what's the big deal?

I got the same thing after my first 50 miler. During it and immediately after I thought of it as terrible suffering, and pointless and swore never again. A few days later I was like "that wasn't really so bad." A year later when I did it again, I was like "Yes, it was. What was I thinking."

So, no. No lasting psychological damage or anything like that I seem to be pretty good at revising traumatic experiences after the fact to make them more palatable.

The only change I'd make now is that I'd rather be waterboarded then lose my fingers. I'm sure I'd change my mind again once it started.

***

I'm not really prepared to deal with some of the larger questions that were asked.
There's been some debate (not on this board) but Nationally, whether waterboarding is torture and whether it is an acceptable interrogation technique.

Clearly, there is some kind of line in interrogation. Is it torture to look at a guy mean and make him nervous? Have his room at 68 rather than 72 degrees? Undercook his eggs? Make him eat his favorite ice cream real fast so he gets a headache? A component of interrogation is to make the person being interrogated feel out of balance, uncomfortable, dependant, and wanting to please his interrogators. I do this to my kids if I send them to their room. Coercion happens at all kinds of levels.

The question I wanted to answer was where did waterboarding fall? Should we do it?

My conclusion is that waterboarding would be a very extreme form of torture. Wherever one might choose to draw the line, waterboarding would be out there on the far end.

If we are going to waterboard, we might as well be doing electroshock, beatings, etc. or other forms of "uncivilized" medieval torture. It's just as bad and worse than most.
  #124  
Old 12-23-2007, 08:12 AM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
Water boarding is simply the "bandwagon" story of the year. If you are en enemy of this country and have information that could potentially save the lives of the TRULY innocent (even if it's 1 person), I don't care what they do to the guy.

I think it would be great to round up all the enemies of Peace and LibertyTM and just torture the shit out of them. Problem is that those bleeding heart liberals Washington and Jefferson and so on really hamstringed us on that one:

Amendment VI
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."


Amendment VIII
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."


I realize that good ole' fashioned investigative and intelligence work is a slow process and we're all about immediate gratification as a society. But maybe going around torturing people doesn't really set a good example? I mean if we're going to go around and topple evil dictators and all.



Now if you'll excuse me, I need to outfit my testicles with some electrodes.

Last edited by msmith537; 12-23-2007 at 08:13 AM.
  #125  
Old 12-23-2007, 09:36 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 56,493
I don't get it, I really don't. Was there ever any doubt? Given its long history of use, given the tesitmony of people who have been subjected to it, and the testimony of people who have subjected others to it? (I recall that Mark Twain discussed it obliquely in his anti-imperialist writings about the Phillipine Insurrection as "the water cure"). Despite all of this, there was doubt? Some slim possiblility that this "torture" talk is merely the blatherings of Liberal Scum, who treacherously value humanity and decency above national security?

Well, then, I suppose we only have one sensible course of action if we are to ensure that our ignorance is thoroughly dispelled. We must have volunteers, or course, there being no legal recourse to compel participation. And the volunteers must be vetted and certified as Tighty Rightys of the first rank (since lefties cannot be trusted, being wimpy, effete, and far too smart to offer themselves for such a pointless exercise...)

Not friend Scylla, of course, he has already done yeoman's work here, and can be excused with the thanks of a grateful nation (despite having been exposed herein as being somewhat to the left of Otto von Bismarck, and hence, suspect). No, we need fresh volunteers of unblemished conservative principle, and a list of dubious techniques to be objectively examined. Tearing fingernails, electrodes to the naughty bits, that sort of thing.

Of course, persons such as myself, Dio, Elvis etc. must be, regretably, precluded from such participation, our objectivity being questionable. (Sorry, guys, but the stern requirements of science demand...)

So, step up, tighty rightys! In an orderly fashion, volunteer yourself and specify precisely which technique you will be subjecting yourselves to. Not all at once now, don't want a stampede, here. I see no reason why libertarians need be precluded, this is strictly voluntary, and no state coercion is involved, Of course, I would offer my own participation in an instant, were I not a) lefty and b) sane, but I certainly would not dream of compromising the integrity and objectivity of this experiment. My opinion is already formed, but I could be wrong.

I'm not, but I could be.

(PS: for the record, no volunteers for "the comfy chair" will be accepted. This has only one historical reference, and that as a comedic suggestion.)

Last edited by elucidator; 12-23-2007 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Aaaaarrgh! All right, all right, I'll edit!
  #126  
Old 12-23-2007, 09:53 AM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central NJ (near Bree)
Posts: 27,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator
So, step up, tighty rightys! In an orderly fashion, volunteer yourself and specify precisely which technique you will be subjecting yourselves to. Not all at once now, don't want a stampede, here. I see no reason why libertarians need be precluded, this is strictly voluntary, and no state coercion is involved, Of course, I would offer my own participation in an instant, were I not a) lefty and b) sane, but I certainly would not dream of compromising the integrity and objectivity of this experiment. My opinion is already formed, but I could be wrong.
Thankfully as a Green Republican and Bush/Cheney hater, I fail on the tighty righty check. I will have withdraw from participation in your experiment. That and I would probably not even try to hold out, I hate pain. I consider a mile and a half run to be a tortuous thing, forget about 100 miles or waterboarding.

Jim
  #127  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:26 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator
Well, then, I suppose we only have one sensible course of action if we are to ensure that our ignorance is thoroughly dispelled. We must have volunteers, or course, there being no legal recourse to compel participation. And the volunteers must be vetted and certified as Tighty Rightys of the first rank (since lefties cannot be trusted, being wimpy, effete, and far too smart to offer themselves for such a pointless exercise...)
No. No. I trust you. It's all about fighting and ignorance and we all must do our part. Now it's your turn.

I hear beheading isn't all that bad.
  #128  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:47 AM
Sub Judice Sub Judice is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 17th Century England
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla
I hear beheading isn't all that bad.
The 1st time is supposed to be the worst
  #129  
Old 12-23-2007, 11:05 AM
George Kaplin George Kaplin is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
PS if that guy's a conservative, I must be a fascist.
No, he's brave. You're just a...well, I don't know what the hell you are.
  #130  
Old 12-23-2007, 12:08 PM
Jean-Pierre Jean-Pierre is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1
I've done a little experimenting with waterboarding myself just using the wet rag method. I posted some video of myself and others undergoing the experience at: http://mediaforsocialchange.blogspot...ed-myself.html
I never tried the saran wrap method (it sounds awful), but the vacuuming effect of the wet rag did induce panic even though I was totally in control of the situation.
  #131  
Old 12-23-2007, 01:42 PM
Hostile Dialect Hostile Dialect is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD)
Posts: 10,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sub Judice
The 1st time is supposed to be the worst
OTOH, I hear the sensation of air rushing over your neck is supposed to be quite pleasant.
  #132  
Old 12-23-2007, 02:04 PM
jjimm jjimm is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 28,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-Pierre
I've done a little experimenting with waterboarding myself just using the wet rag method. I posted some video of myself and others undergoing the experience at: http://mediaforsocialchange.blogspot...ed-myself.html
I never tried the saran wrap method (it sounds awful), but the vacuuming effect of the wet rag did induce panic even though I was totally in control of the situation.
Ah, but compared to Scylla you are a raving Commie, and therefore your judgement is not to be trusted.
  #133  
Old 12-23-2007, 03:00 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjimm
Ah, but compared to Scylla you are a raving Commie, and therefore your judgement is not to be trusted.
What I want to know is why he felt it was necessary to drive out into the desert in the middle of the night to waterboard himself.

I have to give that major style points. The only way to top it would be to dig a grave sized hole first.
  #134  
Old 12-23-2007, 04:29 PM
Miller Miller is offline
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 42,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaswat
I'm a libertarian if that's of any relevance.
No, Libertarianism hasn't been relevant for years.
  #135  
Old 12-23-2007, 05:38 PM
Chouan Chouan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 33
bdaswat is missing the point. By demonstrating the mental anguish caused by this method of interrogation, Scylla's experiment actually reinforces its usefulness as a tool in the fight against terrorism.

It doesn't matter if we waterboard or not. What's important is that the terrorists BELIEVE that we do, AND that it's a terrible experience. If they don't believe that we might conduct this form of interrogation on them, then they might refuse to cooperate.

UNENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok.

ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla's post and winks]
AL-QAIDA: I confess!
  #136  
Old 12-23-2007, 05:55 PM
Hostile Dialect Hostile Dialect is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Diego, CA (UCSD)
Posts: 10,038
Thanks for the coloring book, Chouan. One problem, though: it has dialogue, but it seems to be missing illustrations. Can you send those over? Thanks.
  #137  
Old 12-23-2007, 06:06 PM
fisha fisha is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MN
Posts: 3,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chouan
bdaswat is missing the point. By demonstrating the mental anguish caused by this method of interrogation, Scylla's experiment actually reinforces its usefulness as a tool in the fight against terrorism.

It doesn't matter if we waterboard or not. What's important is that the terrorists BELIEVE that we do, AND that it's a terrible experience. If they don't believe that we might conduct this form of interrogation on them, then they might refuse to cooperate.

UNENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok.

ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla's post and winks]
AL-QAIDA: I confess!
Welcome to the SDMB, Choan.

Somehow I believe that America's reputation amongst terrorism suspects is much worse than just waterboarding.

Last edited by fisha; 12-23-2007 at 06:07 PM.
  #138  
Old 12-23-2007, 06:26 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 24,630
Has anyone here heard of Daniel Levin? He was an assistant US attorney general in the Bush administration who had himself waterboarded voluntarily (by trained members of the military), and then wrote a memo arguing that it is in fact torture. (There is a link to the memo in the Wikipedia article.)
  #139  
Old 12-23-2007, 09:50 PM
Kaboodle Kaboodle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 198
I was reading this thread: Is there any truth torture works? and a guest, vison, posted a link to another message board post about an article at The Atlantic.com. I wanted to find the original article Truth Extraction which is actually very interesting in that it basically says the most effective interrogators didn't use torture, they used kindness. Yes, even in cases where the information was time sensitive. There's a little more to it than that but this information is from the Marine Corps interrogating Japanese prisoners during WWII.

The point of this post is that I found this thread is now on the front page of The Atlantic.com:
Quote:
Andrew Sullivan 23 December 2007 8:28 pm
Self-Waterboarding: An Experiment
Here’s a fascinating account of a very fit man subjecting himself to waterboarding in order to answer the question for himself whether every legal precedent that says it’s torture is correct or not. Read More
  #140  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:13 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,363
I should be getting paid.
  #141  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:19 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chouan
bdaswat is missing the point. By demonstrating the mental anguish caused by this method of interrogation, Scylla's experiment actually reinforces its usefulness as a tool in the fight against terrorism.
There's no reason to believe that it's useful at all. Rather the opposite, since it makes the terrorists look more justified, and makes other less inclined to bother to cooperate with us. Given the way we behave, why should a third party care if terrorists want to kill Americans ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chouan
It doesn't matter if we waterboard or not.
Since waterboarding is evil, yes it does matter. As far as I'm concerned all the "interrogators" who have done so and those who gave permission or orders to do so should be executed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chouan
What's important is that the terrorists BELIEVE that we do, AND that it's a terrible experience. If they don't believe that we might conduct this form of interrogation on them, then they might refuse to cooperate.

UNENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok.

ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO:

INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is.
AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No.
INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla's post and winks]
AL-QAIDA: I confess!
No, what happens is that we grab people who are quite often innocent, and torture them until they tell us what we want to hear. Or until they end up dead or insane. We don't care if our victims are innocent or guilty because we are a vile nation, a nation of self righteous sadists, thieves and mass murderers. We aren't looking for terrorists, but for victims.
  #142  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:26 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Finn
Has anyone here heard of Daniel Levin? He was an assistant US attorney general in the Bush administration who had himself waterboarded voluntarily (by trained members of the military), and then wrote a memo arguing that it is in fact torture. (There is a link to the memo in the Wikipedia article.)
I mentioned him back in Post # 23.
  #143  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:31 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 24,630
Sorry. I skimmed the thread and missed your post.
  #144  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:52 PM
KGS KGS is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Porn Capital USA
Posts: 4,657
I think Mythbusters should try this experiment. They're desperate for ideas anyway.
  #145  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:57 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 50,497
Actually, I would think that torture is one of the LEAST affective means of getting a confession. You get a lot of false ones, anything to make them stop.

Now, if I were in charge, I'd be more subtle: total boredom. Stick them in a cell, with merely basic necessities. A small toilet/shower/sink, a cot, a sofa. But NO tv, no books, no form of entertainment whatsoever. Me, I'd be confessing within a day.
  #146  
Old 12-24-2007, 01:00 AM
Tristan Tristan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leaffan for president!
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No, what happens is that we grab people who are quite often innocent, and torture them until they tell us what we want to hear.
Cite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs
Or until they end up dead or insane. We don't care if our victims are innocent or guilty because we are a vile nation, a nation of self righteous sadists, thieves and mass murderers.
Cite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs
We aren't looking for terrorists, but for victims.
Cite?

You really shouldn't come in here and threadcrap, this thread is going to be read by potentially MILLIONS.
  #147  
Old 12-24-2007, 01:59 AM
rowrrbazzle rowrrbazzle is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicago
Posts: 8,474
The thread's just been Boing Boinged. http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/23...oarding-f.html
  #148  
Old 12-24-2007, 02:38 AM
Ocean Annie Ocean Annie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Former Red State
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinastasia
Actually, I would think that torture is one of the LEAST affective means of getting a confession. You get a lot of false ones, anything to make them stop.

Now, if I were in charge, I'd be more subtle: total boredom. Stick them in a cell, with merely basic necessities. A small toilet/shower/sink, a cot, a sofa. But NO tv, no books, no form of entertainment whatsoever. Me, I'd be confessing within a day.
Yep, this is true. People will say anything under pain and extreme duress. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi was tortured and provided the false intelligence concerning Iraq’s WMD program. The information al-Libi provided and Yellow Cake were included in the NIE report presented to the UN by former Secretary of State Powell, which of course, justified the preemptive invasion of Iraq.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...oarding_Video_

Last edited by Ocean Annie; 12-24-2007 at 02:43 AM.
  #149  
Old 12-24-2007, 02:54 AM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Cite?
Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Cite?
Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Cite?
Iraq.
  #150  
Old 12-24-2007, 03:18 AM
Tristan Tristan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: leaffan for president!
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs
Iraq.

Iraq.

Iraq.
Ah, I am totally convinced by the eloquence and facts of your flawless argument.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright © 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017