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Old 08-11-2017, 09:54 PM
chacoguy chacoguy is offline
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Why is Boxing dominated by Black men?

While Mixed Martial Arts is not?


Damnit, can a Mod fix the title?

Last edited by chacoguy; 08-11-2017 at 09:56 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:05 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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Because they are better at boxing than other people?
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:18 PM
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Evan Drake View Post
Because they are better at boxing than other people?
No. Why would that be? Why were the Irish or the Italians once the best boxers, when they aren't any more?

In general, dominance of particular ethnic groups in particular sports can be accounted for by cultural reasons. For whatever reason, boxing is more popular among black kids in urban areas than mixed martial arts are.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:22 PM
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People with lower economic backgrounds tend to gravitate towards rough professions with the chance of making it out of poverty. In the US and some other countries, that tends to be blacks.

But if you look at the list of current boxing champions, there are many boxers from eastern Europe, Mexico, Japan, Thailand, etc. i think it's fair to say that southeast Asians dominate the lower weight classes. The super heavyweights are often black but recently we've had several Russian champions.
  #6  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:27 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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First of all, boxing is not dominated by Bjack men or even black men. As this page of current champions shows, boxing has a mix of races and nationalities that is only equaled by the Olympics.

One thing can be said about the history of boxing, though. It's a brutal sport that chews up its athletes. The ranks of top boxers tend to come from whichever racial, ethnic, or national group that has few other equivalently good options for ambitious young men. If you are poor and striving you'll do the worst work across the board, and if that work has opportunities, even vague ones, for fame and fortune, all the better.

MMA champions also come from around the world.

My guess is that a lot of perception bias is rolled into this question.

Ninja'd, but that's because I brought the links.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:39 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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Blacks were hindered from championship boxing until the mid century.

I'm sure the great English, Irish, Gypsy and Jewish bare-knuckle fighters of the old English prize-fighters ring, 100 rounds plus, pre-boxing, could wipe the floor with most people, but black men were rare in Britain then and more of them might have enabled them to dominate the foolish sport as they do boxing now.



Tom Molineaux, 'Black Ajax', was beaten by Cribb in 1811, but they were both too old and past their prime.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:39 AM
Colibri Colibri is online now
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Originally Posted by Evan Drake View Post
Blacks were hindered from championship boxing until the mid century.
So? Are they hindered from participating from lower weight classes now? In the lower weight classes, are Asians better than blacks? Why would that be?

Last edited by Colibri; 08-12-2017 at 12:40 AM.
  #9  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:35 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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For about 30 years, yes Black Americans did dominate the Heavyweight boxing scene.
But since early 2000, we have had a Hispanic American, lots of East Euros, a couple of Black Brits and one white British Boxer (Tyson Fury).

So this question is about 15 years out of date.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:16 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Yup, there was a time why people wondered why Jews were so dominant in sports, especially in brutal sports like boxing. And then, as now, the speculation often went in bigoted directions.
  #11  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:38 AM
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Economics.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:52 AM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Due to being disproportionately poor and trapped in ghettos, blacks are more likely to become involved in sports that don't require expensive facilities they don't have access too. So, they end up in sports like boxing and basketball instead of swimming since they have access to basketball hoops & fists, but not large swimming pools.

As said, economics.

Last edited by Der Trihs; 08-12-2017 at 08:53 AM.
  #13  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:24 AM
asahi asahi is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yup, there was a time why people wondered why Jews were so dominant in sports, especially in brutal sports like boxing. And then, as now, the speculation often went in bigoted directions.
I honestly don't see this as an inherently bigoted question; it's a matter of noticing patterns and being curious about them - like wondering why Kenyans dominate marathon running (I don't know if they still do) or why Soviets (Eurasians and Eastern Europeans) used to dominate wrestling.

I'm not a sports scientist obviously but my observation is that from time to time sports can be dominated by particular groups because of social and economic factors. Last I looked, though, black fighters no longer dominate the sport the way they once did. But in the 1970s and 80s, they arguably were dominant in the heavier weight classes. African Americans probably got into boxing because it was an opportunity and there were boxing gyms in the neighborhood. It didn't require a lot of money to take it up as a hobby.

By contrast, in MMA, white competitors were dominant in the US most likely for related reasons. There were more white athletes in college wrestling programs and more white suburban kids taking up karate and tae kwon do (and then later Brazilian jiu jutsu in the 1990s and 2000s). And just as black athletes are no longer quite so dominant in boxing, opening it to people of more diverse backgrounds, black athletes are starting to more frequently become champions or elite competitors in MMA. Now you've got fighters like Jon Jones and Daniel Cormier are the two light heavyweight champs, and don't be surprised to see Jones take a shot at the heavyweight shot. Meanwhile Tyron Woodly and Demetrious Johnson are two champs in lower weight classes. And a number of other black athletes have been competitive as well. MMA's no longer a sport for wrestlers from the heartland and suburban thrill seeking bad asses from Southern California.
  #14  
Old 08-12-2017, 12:29 PM
Colibri Colibri is online now
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I honestly don't see this as an inherently bigoted question; it's a matter of noticing patterns and being curious about them - like wondering why Kenyans dominate marathon running (I don't know if they still do) or why Soviets (Eurasians and Eastern Europeans) used to dominate wrestling.
It's not an inherently bigoted question. But bigots tend to jump to the conclusion that dominance of a sport by any particular ethnic group necessarily means there is a genetic component to it. Then they use that as evidence that there must be a genetic component to other abilities or behaviors.
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:37 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Nobody mentioned genetics before you did. Talk about jumping to conclusions...

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  #16  
Old 08-12-2017, 12:45 PM
asahi asahi is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
It's not an inherently bigoted question. But bigots tend to jump to the conclusion that dominance of a sport by any particular ethnic group necessarily means there is a genetic component to it. Then they use that as evidence that there must be a genetic component to other abilities or behaviors.
Yes, bigots do that, but it's okay to be naturally curious about patterns that you see in real life. That's not bigotry. I abhor racism, but I don't like objecting to racism that doesn't exist either. We've been programmed to avoid questions that have anything at all to do with race when it's better to just address a question with factual responses.
  #17  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:03 PM
Colibri Colibri is online now
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Nobody mentioned genetics before you did. Talk about jumping to conclusions...
Are you denying that this is a frequent allegation?

Someone else brought up the fact that this may be regarded as a bigoted question. I explained reasons it may be perceived as a bigoted question. I did not say that the OP or any other post was bigoted, and specifically said the question was not inherently bigoted.

It appears that you're the one that is jumping to conclusions.

Last edited by Colibri; 08-12-2017 at 01:08 PM.
  #18  
Old 08-12-2017, 02:11 PM
dalej42 dalej42 is online now
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Here's a list of the 2016 Olympic boxing medalists

Pretty diverse group of countries and ethnic backgrounds
  #19  
Old 08-12-2017, 02:32 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Are you denying that this is a frequent allegation?
It was not mentioned in this thread until you brought it up.
Quote:
It appears that you're the one that is jumping to conclusions.
So, no.

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  #20  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:12 PM
Colibri Colibri is online now
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
It was not mentioned in this thread until you brought it up.
Why shouldn't it be brought up, since it is pertinent to the OP as an explanation advanced by some people?

And you haven't answered my question about whether you are denying it is a frequent allegation.

And what "conclusion" are you claiming I am jumping to?

If you are going to respond to this, please answer all the questions clearly.

Last edited by Colibri; 08-12-2017 at 03:17 PM.
  #21  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:27 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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To be clear, I didn't mean that this particular thread was motivated by racism, or was going to go in racist directions. I was simply observing that that's often the direction that discussions like this one go in.
  #22  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:50 PM
chacoguy chacoguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yup, there was a time why people wondered why Jews were so dominant in sports, especially in brutal sports like boxing. And then, as now, the speculation often went in bigoted directions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I honestly don't see this as an inherently bigoted question; it's a matter of noticing patterns and being curious about them - like wondering why Kenyans dominate marathon running (I don't know if they still do) or why Soviets (Eurasians and Eastern Europeans) used to dominate wrestling.

I'm not a sports scientist obviously but my observation is that from time to time sports can be dominated by particular groups because of social and economic factors. Last I looked, though, black fighters no longer dominate the sport the way they once did. But in the 1970s and 80s, they arguably were dominant in the heavier weight classes. African Americans probably got into boxing because it was an opportunity and there were boxing gyms in the neighborhood. It didn't require a lot of money to take it up as a hobby.

By contrast, in MMA, white competitors were dominant in the US most likely for related reasons. There were more white athletes in college wrestling programs and more white suburban kids taking up karate and tae kwon do (and then later Brazilian jiu jutsu in the 1990s and 2000s). And just as black athletes are no longer quite so dominant in boxing, opening it to people of more diverse backgrounds, black athletes are starting to more frequently become champions or elite competitors in MMA. Now you've got fighters like Jon Jones and Daniel Cormier are the two light heavyweight champs, and don't be surprised to see Jones take a shot at the heavyweight shot. Meanwhile Tyron Woodly and Demetrious Johnson are two champs in lower weight classes. And a number of other black athletes have been competitive as well. MMA's no longer a sport for wrestlers from the heartland and suburban thrill seeking bad asses from Southern California.
I agree with both of these posts.
  #23  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:58 PM
kidchameleon kidchameleon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post

It appears that you're the one that is jumping to conclusions.
I believe that's dominated by middle aged white men.
  #24  
Old 08-18-2017, 10:26 AM
CrimeThink CrimeThink is offline
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Cite? I've heard specifically that white men can't jump.
  #25  
Old 08-18-2017, 12:19 PM
muldoonthief muldoonthief is offline
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Cite? I've heard specifically that white men can't jump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42WNHGr1jGI#t=9s
  #26  
Old 08-18-2017, 12:51 PM
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It appears that you're the one that is jumping to conclusions.
Fosbury, is that you?
  #27  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:09 AM
fjs1fs fjs1fs is offline
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Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Here's a list of the 2016 Olympic boxing medalists

Pretty diverse group of countries and ethnic backgrounds
Looking at that list, we should start a threat on how/why Uzbekistan produces so many great boxers!
  #28  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:53 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yup, there was a time why people wondered why Jews were so dominant in sports, especially in brutal sports like boxing.
I highly doubt if this is true (for a meaningful number of "people"). There was never a time when Jews were "so dominant in sports, especially in brutal sports like boxing", so it's unlikely that many people would have wondered why that was so.
  #29  
Old 09-06-2017, 11:58 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Due to being disproportionately poor and trapped in ghettos, blacks are more likely to become involved in sports that don't require expensive facilities they don't have access too. So, they end up in sports like boxing and basketball instead of swimming since they have access to basketball hoops & fists, but not large swimming pools.

As said, economics.
Or as I told a black drinking buddy, "I could so kick your ass in Marco Polo".
  #30  
Old 09-06-2017, 12:56 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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I highly doubt if this is true (for a meaningful number of "people"). There was never a time when Jews were "so dominant in sports, especially in brutal sports like boxing", so it's unlikely that many people would have wondered why that was so.
Read a book sometime. Specially, this one: When Jewish Boxers Were Lords of the Ring.

Quote:
Silver, however, points out that from 1901 until 1939 about one in seven world champion fighters were Jewish. Consistently over that period, Jews made up a double-digit representation of all professional fighters, along with the Irish and Italians. Jews also formed a considerable part of the crowds who attended boxing events.
Or this one: When Boxing Was a Jewish Sport

Last edited by Exapno Mapcase; 09-06-2017 at 12:58 PM.
  #31  
Old 09-06-2017, 01:25 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Read a book sometime. Specially, this one: When Jewish Boxers Were Lords of the Ring.



Or this one: When Boxing Was a Jewish Sport
Learn some math. Even assuming those numbers are true, one in seven is not remotely close to dominating the sport.

[FWIW, I doubt if the numbers are accurate altogether. There's a tendency in books of that sort to stretch the definition of Jewish. For example, Max Baer was not Jewish by any reasonable definition, but he tends to get counted, e.g. here.]
  #32  
Old 09-06-2017, 01:32 PM
Tom Tildrum Tom Tildrum is offline
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I think we're far enough into the thread that it's worth quoting The Naked Gun:

Quote:
Lt. Frank Drebin: Hector Savage. From Detroit. Ex-boxer. His real name was Joey Chicago.

Ed Hocken: Oh, yeah. He fought under the name of Kid Minneapolis.

Nordberg: I saw Kid Minneapolis fight once. In Cincinnati.

Lt. Frank Drebin: No you're thinking of Kid New York. He fought out of Philly.

Ed Hocken: He was killed in the ring in Houston. By Tex Colorado. You know, the Arizona Assassin.

Nordberg: Yeah, from Dakota. I don't remember it was North or South.

Lt. Frank Drebin: North. South Dakota was his brother. From West Virginia.

Ed Hocken: You sure know your boxing.

Lt. Frank Drebin: All I know is never bet on the white guy.

[Nordberg nods in agreement]
  #33  
Old 09-06-2017, 02:27 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Learn some math. Even assuming those numbers are true, one in seven is not remotely close to dominating the sport.

[FWIW, I doubt if the numbers are accurate altogether. There's a tendency in books of that sort to stretch the definition of Jewish. For example, Max Baer was not Jewish by any reasonable definition, but he tends to get counted, e.g. here.]
No problem. As long as everybody else understands you're wrong, I'm cool with it.
  #34  
Old 09-06-2017, 02:37 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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One in seven is pretty dominant, when you're talking about a 1% demographic.
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  #35  
Old 09-06-2017, 02:52 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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One in seven is pretty dominant, when you're talking about a 1% demographic.
1% of what?

At the time we're discussing, Jews were about 4% of the US, and heavily concentrated in urban areas which probably produced much more than their fair share of boxers. And again, I'm skeptical of the one in seven number for reasons given.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jews had more than their fair share of boxers for the same reason they had more than their fair share of mobsters at that time. They were concentrated in poverty-stricken urban ghettoes, which tend to produce those types.

But disproportionate representation is not nearly the same thing as dominance. Black representation in boxing from the 60s to the 80s (especially at the heavier divisions) was dominance. Jewish in that earlier time was probably somewhat disproportionate.
  #36  
Old 09-22-2017, 07:45 AM
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But disproportionate representation is not nearly the same thing as dominance. Black representation in boxing from the 60s to the 80s (especially at the heavier divisions) was dominance.
I think there is a bit of truth here. To non boxing people (like myself) the heavyweight champion tends to get a lot more headlines, and in my memory on it does seem to have been dominated by people such as Sonny Liston, through Muhammeed Ali to Mike Tyson. After that interest was not there- or less there.

Guess I'm saying is the bigger headlines get the most attention unless you closely follow the sport.
  #37  
Old 09-22-2017, 02:00 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil FoieGrasIsEvil is online now
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I think we're far enough into the thread that it's worth quoting The Naked Gun:
So awesome.
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  #38  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:51 PM
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Or as I told a black drinking buddy, "I could so kick your ass in Marco Polo".
Bwahahahahahahahahaha. I'm cyin' here. Thanks
  #39  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:24 AM
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Perhaps some sort of "jump to conclusions mat" would be helpful to these discussions.
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