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  #51  
Old 08-11-2017, 02:49 AM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is online now
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Originally Posted by snoe View Post
According to what seems to be a more reliable survey, about 1 in 6 Americans would prefer military rule to democracy:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/1...democracy.html. So, yeah, we shouldn't take it for granted.

It is mainly overlooked how much the USA is part of the Americas. Apart from schooling the rest of them, it itself conforms to the militaristic fascination that has made the Latin countries special. Compared to non-American cultures ( excepting China which had warlords fairly recently, and a CCP much more militaristic than the Soviet Union ) the USA has had a considerable proportion of presidents with extensive military rank.

Civilian presidents make up a quarter; generals and above make up a quarter. Colonels and less make up a half.


However odd this history seems to outsiders, it does mean many Americans --- especially those who are super-patriots --- are going to feel comfortable with decision-making in the hands of the forces they trust the most.
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  #52  
Old 08-11-2017, 04:16 AM
Quartz Quartz is online now
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Poll: Nearly Half of Pubs Would Support Postponing 2020 Election
Of course they would; it would mean more drinking time!

(So who else opened the thread thinking it was about Public Houses?)
  #53  
Old 08-11-2017, 05:57 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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Originally Posted by snoe View Post
According to what seems to be a more reliable survey, about 1 in 6 Americans would prefer military rule to democracy:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/1...democracy.html. So, yeah, we shouldn't take it for granted.
Growing militarism is a concern to me. It's getting to be that we can't have a holiday anymore without communal fellating of the military. We're supposed to tell everyone in uniform thank you for their service. Now we have a significant portion of the electorate perfectly happy with an incompetent ignorant buffoon in the White House who wants to be a strongman dictator, and it's okay with all of them because he pisses off people who disagree with them.

I'd like to see other polls ask this or similar questions. The rule of law and democracy have never been more at risk than they are right now.
  #54  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:54 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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This is why I can't take complaints about Fox News all that seriously. The WaPo does a poll which is not far short of fake, and uses it to claim that half of Republicans want to postpone the election.

#fakenews,
Shodan
  #55  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:10 AM
bobot bobot is online now
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
This is why I can't take complaints about Fox News all that seriously. The WaPo does a poll which is not far short of fake, and uses it to claim that half of Republicans want to postpone the election.

#fakenews,
Shodan
Your logic is less than sound.
  #56  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:16 AM
running coach running coach is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
This is why I can't take complaints about Fox News all that seriously. The WaPo does a poll which is not far short of fake, and uses it to claim that half of Republicans want to postpone the election.

#fakenews,
Shodan
Nothing to back your claim.

That figures,
running coach
  #57  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:09 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Slightly lamer because it's just as dumb but wordier.

Face it. He's rich, has a hot ex-model wife and is the goddamn POTUS. If that's losing then I never want to win again. It is possible to hate the guy without being an idiot about it. I'm doing right now, in fact.
Face it, Donald Trump is absolutely miserable every second of his life.
  #58  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:19 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Hey if that keeps you warm at night...

Last edited by CarnalK; 08-11-2017 at 12:19 PM.
  #59  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:40 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
Nothing to back your claim.
Nothing to back my claim? Oooookay then.

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  #60  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:50 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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What does postponing the 2020 election even mean?
  #61  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:21 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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What does postponing the 2020 election even mean?
It means that Republicans would rather have a king than a president.
  #62  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:22 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
This is why I can't take complaints about Fox News all that seriously. The WaPo does a poll which is not far short of fake, and uses it to claim that half of Republicans want to postpone the election.

#fakenews,
Shodan
I can't take complaints about this Monkeycage poll seriously because of Fox News' blatant editorial bias. In fact, I can't take any complaints about anything seriously for that reason. It's comforting, in a way.
  #63  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:31 PM
XT XT is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
It means that Republicans would rather have a king than a president.
Huh...here I thought it meant that nearly half of those who responded in this obvious push poll implied...something. But if you want to leap that shark again to claim this means (all?) Republicans would rather have a king than a president, well, that's an interesting take anyway.

It will be hilarious when some 'doper conservative makes similar sweeping and ridiculous claims based on a poll like this about Democrats or left winger types to see the takes of those participating in this thread. I wonder if they will change at all...


Last edited by XT; 08-11-2017 at 01:32 PM.
  #64  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:36 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
Huh...here I thought it meant that nearly half of those who responded in this obvious push poll implied...something. But if you want to leap that shark again to claim this means (all?) Republicans would rather have a king than a president, well, that's an interesting take anyway.

It will be hilarious when some 'doper conservative makes similar sweeping and ridiculous claims based on a poll like this about Democrats or left winger types to see the takes of those participating in this thread. I wonder if they will change at all...

The problem is that you first have to have a "poll like this about Democrats".
  #65  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:39 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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Funny, most of the time when you hear a rumor about the election being postponed or cancelled it's at the tail end of a two-term incumbent.
  #66  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:41 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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43.78% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Plus or minus 0.5%.

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  #67  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
It means that Republicans would rather have a king than a president.
I think it shows confirmation bias in those interpreting the poll results more than anything else. Here's a commentary from the Atlantic that seems like a more reasoned interpretation:
Quote:
Besides, there are lots of dubious partisan views that show up in polls. Respondents consistently say things that are counterfactual or plainly nuts. How many voters really believed that Barack Obama was a Muslim, or born in Kenya? Probably fewer than told pollsters they did. Even the belief that Trump won the popular vote, which has shown up in other polls, could fall under the same umbrella. As Julian Sanchez has argued, such results look like “symbolic beliefs,” offered mostly to affirm fidelity to a party or politician. In the early ’90s, bumperstickers suggested, “Annoy the media: Re-elect Bush.” In today’s even more polarized, media-hating environment, the temptation to annoy the media, liberals, and Republican elites alike by backing outlandish ideas in polls is even stronger.
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
The problem is that you first have to have a "poll like this about Democrats".
It would be like saying that Democrats would rather abandon the constitution than have an election because 67% of Democrats said they would rather have a 3rd Obama term over a potential Clinton Administration in this also shitty poll.
  #68  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:49 PM
XT XT is offline
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The problem is that you first have to have a "poll like this about Democrats".
I don't think it will be all that much of a problem. If you seriously think that a similar push poll couldn't be used to make Democrats (or anyone else) look bad then you haven't been following along. I'm quite sure that Fox or someone of similar ilk could and probably have done targeted polls to do just that either during the next Democratic president's term or during the Obama term. And I'm equally sure that you and others in here would be saying basically that the poll was bullshit. You aren't saying that here because...well, I'm sure you know why that is.

This is the aspect of this board that really is disappointing. Horseshit should be horseshit, even if it aligns with your partisan viewpoint. This poll is horseshit and no conclusion SHOULD be drawn from something like this. But you are drawing it all the say, ain't ya? Hell, you are even jumping the shark to make even broader brush statements to really go over the top.
  #69  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:51 PM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
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I wonder, if polled, how many Democrats would support a new Presidential election to happen next week?
  #70  
Old 08-11-2017, 02:00 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is online now
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Face it, Donald Trump is absolutely miserable every second of his life.

Yeah. So much so he's going to resign. In a Huff. Because he didn't expect the job to be so hard. Because he's ignorant and stupid. Because he's thin-skinned. Because his administration is in a shambles. Because the intelligence services will force him out. Because it is going to be proved Putin controls him like a hand-puppet. Because he stole 10c in 1956...
  #71  
Old 08-12-2017, 02:20 AM
Disgruntled Penguin Disgruntled Penguin is offline
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It would be like saying that Democrats would rather abandon the constitution than have an election because 67% of Democrats said they would rather have a 3rd Obama term over a potential Clinton Administration in this also shitty poll.
I obviously would not agree with them in regards to canceling an election but I can completely understand the sentiment behind it. The presidential term limit rule is not a long established tradition. It came about because Republicans felt bad that they couldn't beat one president.

WhaI don't agree with it because in a job as important as president you really don't want to start arbitrarily disqualifying your best candidates. I also oppose the no foreign born leaders for the same reason. Now, what I wouldn't support is canceling an election; I'd support allowing said candidate to run. I'd imagine that option would trounce the cancel the election one if it was presented as an option. Can't really do that with the OP though so there is that.

Id agree that the polls are equally silly but what I see is their strength ( I don't believe it's their purpose exactly ) is not pointing out the craziness of the other party but rather as a gut check to your own beliefs. It can tap the breaks slightly on the out of control hyperbole trains that seem to be the norm in politics today. It's a way to get people to take a deep breath and reexamine their perspective. In the end, if they can realize that they're not that crazy yet it can only help.
  #72  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:20 AM
Stringbean Stringbean is offline
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The presidential term limit rule is not a long established tradition. It came about because Republicans felt bad that they couldn't beat one president.
It was an informal precedent established by the first president which was maintained for 145 years. An amendment was ratified shortly after the seal was broken and the unbeatable president had since died. It is a cornerstone of the American tradition.
  #73  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:42 AM
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If you support postponing an election, you are anti-democracy. You're for giving the person in power the ability to stop you from voting. It is a lead in to a dictatorship.

Supporting a third term is not anti-democracy. We even had a four term president once. Saying you don't like term limits means nothing. As long as you still had to vote for them, and you were free to vote against them, democracy is satisfied.

Calling him Loser Donald is just an intentional insult, and yes, it's childish. But it's a childish strategy that worked for Trump, so using it on his followers for him makes sense. Trump just put insults in front of names, and people just assumed the insults were true because they heard them so much.

Personally, though I'd stick with "Are we winning yet?" or "So when do we start winning?" I'm trying to find something that riffs on "Make America Great Again," but nothing witty comes to mind at the moment. Though saying it in a Russian accent would make me giggle for a split second.
  #74  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:34 AM
Grsz11 Grsz11 is offline
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Remember when these fascists called Obama a dictator?

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  #75  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:40 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is offline
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Supporting a third term is not anti-democracy. We even had a four term president once. Saying you don't like term limits means nothing. As long as you still had to vote for them, and you were free to vote against them, democracy is satisfied.
You apparently missed the fact that the poll Bone cited asked if they'd like to cancel the 2016 election:

Quote:
A strong majority of Democrats would cancel the 2016 presidential election ...
  #76  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:49 AM
running coach running coach is offline
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Originally Posted by Bone View Post



It would be like saying that Democrats would rather abandon the constitution than have an election because 67% of Democrats said they would rather have a 3rd Obama term over a potential Clinton Administration in this also shitty poll.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You apparently missed the fact that the poll Bone cited asked if they'd like to cancel the 2016 election:
Bone didn't exactly endorse the poll he cited.
Good job making it look like he did by not quoting him.

Since you cut out the relevant part of the article:
Quote:
A strong majority of Democrats would cancel the 2016 presidential election between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump if it meant President Obama could serve another term, a new poll found.

Data provided to The Hill by the conservative polling outlet WPA Research found that 67 percent of Democrats would take a third term for Obama over a potential Clinton administration.

Only 28 percent said they’re ready to move on from the Obama White House, while 6 percent are undecided.
No link to the actual poll or the questions used.

ETA The italicized parts seem to contradict each other.

Last edited by running coach; 08-12-2017 at 09:51 AM.
  #77  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:51 AM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You apparently missed the fact that the poll Bone cited asked if they'd like to cancel the 2016 election:
The sentence about the poll actually says: "Data provided to The Hill by the conservative polling outlet WPA Research found that 67 percent of Democrats would take a third term for Obama over a potential Clinton administration."

That doesn't say anything about canceling an election. I couldn't find a link to the actual poll questions, though. But I think it's entirely possible that The Hill just wrote some hyperbolic bullshit to make the article "pop" more.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-12-2017 at 09:51 AM.
  #78  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:59 AM
running coach running coach is offline
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I have been unable to find the actual poll Bone referenced. Almost all the stories point to The Hill story with only one that linked to the poll which returned a Not Found page.

Last edited by running coach; 08-12-2017 at 10:00 AM.
  #79  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:03 AM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is online now
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However those concerned Democrats weren't trying to keep out the other side by cancelling the election, just to keep Hillary out.





Quote:
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Trump just put insults in front of names, and people just assumed the insults were true because they heard them so much.

Maybe, facilis descensus Averno, Trump is not a good role-model.
  #80  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:35 AM
XT XT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running coach
Bone didn't exactly endorse the poll he cited.
Good job making it look like he did by not quoting him.
I think you missed Bone's point, which was that with a targeted push poll you could pretty much get anyone to say something stupid and that such things really don't give data good enough to draw any sort of conclusions. They are crap. Basically, the only ones who could draw conclusions from either poll are those who are so biased they want to see the worst in the other side and will grasp at any straw(man poll) to validate their opinion.

Quote:
No link to the actual poll or the questions used.

ETA The italicized parts seem to contradict each other.
Since we don't have the poll it's hard to say. However, had they asked the question in the right way, I have no doubt that they could have gotten such a group to say whatever they wanted them to say, including that Obama should have run for a 3rd term or that the election should be canceled. I doubt those who responded were really thinking about what that means, just sore that Obama was leaving and that seemingly Clinton would be the next President...just as I doubt the reliability of the poll that sparked this thread as an indication that 'Nearly Half of Pubs Would Support Postponing 2020 Election Reply to Thread'.

Last edited by XT; 08-12-2017 at 10:35 AM.
  #81  
Old 08-12-2017, 12:33 PM
drad dog drad dog is offline
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It means that Republicans would rather have a king than a president.
These polls are becoming troll jobs on republicans. They know before they ask that these people will say anything. They know the thing can't actually happen. They just want to run the headline. And so far the ignoramuses don't seem to care!

What's the point of asking these things to reality tv addicted idiots who will say anything.
  #82  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:45 PM
Disgruntled Penguin Disgruntled Penguin is offline
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It was an informal precedent established by the first president which was maintained for 145 years. An amendment was ratified shortly after the seal was broken and the unbeatable president had since died. It is a cornerstone of the American tradition.
It clearly wasn't truly a tradition if it required a law to compel being followed. I always thought traditions were made of sterner stuff. In any case this doesn't change myview that its a horrible rule so it doesn't really change my comment above.

Last edited by Disgruntled Penguin; 08-12-2017 at 01:48 PM.
  #83  
Old 08-12-2017, 04:09 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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It clearly wasn't truly a tradition if it required a law to compel being followed. I always thought traditions were made of sterner stuff. In any case this doesn't change myview that its a horrible rule so it doesn't really change my comment above.
If a tradition was something that was never violated, we wouldn't need laws at all. We could just rely on "traditions". Perhaps you should re-watch Fiddler on the Roof.

Last edited by John Mace; 08-12-2017 at 04:09 PM.
  #84  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:30 PM
Stringbean Stringbean is offline
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It clearly wasn't truly a tradition if it required a law to compel being followed. I always thought traditions were made of sterner stuff. In any case this doesn't change myview that its a horrible rule so it doesn't really change my comment above.
I consider Washington's disagreement with your sentiment one of the great achievements in human history. To each his own.
  #85  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:12 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Are there two different polls being cited here? I have read about the one where Pubbies want to postpone the next election until all the massive voter fraud has been dealt with. I think this highlights a point that many of us in the fearfully sane spectrum tend to overlook, which is that the batshit baboons really believe this stuff. It is part of their core mythology, that the vast majority of Americans are united with them. Hence, if follows that if they lose elections and/or the "popular vote", it can only be the result of massive voter fraud.

Of course, this makes it a lot easier for them to accept the voting suppression acts. They might feel a twinge of regret, but ruefully accept the necessity of stern response. They see it as a regrettable but justifiable bit of "hardball". And, of course, the important thing to remember is that both sides do it.
  #86  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:52 PM
Disgruntled Penguin Disgruntled Penguin is offline
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I consider Washington's disagreement with your sentiment one of the great achievements in human history. To each his own.
Personally I have become jaded by meaningless words like tradition. I'm tired of watching them be broken daily. It's just a meaningless thought that people put out there to hook in the "true believers" that those with power break when it suits them and then others act SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU when the traditions are broken.

I have become quite cynical in this regard.

I guess I gave up when the tradition of allowing a president to fill any supreme court vacancies but the minute it was convenient to break it - bye bye tradition. It's all bullshit.

I'm not even blaming one party here, it's the human condition. I see it happening around me daily. I don't believe almost anyone if any are immune to it. It's how we're put together and I'm not criticizing; I'm saying we need to be honest about our expectations and if a human comes out better doing something against tradition, they will inevitably do it.

Like I said before, it it was something that anyone thought really mattered, they had over a century and a half to do something about it. No one did. The reason the thing was a tradition was because neither side wanted to lock it down in case they wanted to be the one that broke it first. In Roosevelt's case, the D's broke it and in the supreme court case it was the R's turn.

The cold hard reality is that if something is a tradition it's NEVER really safe so why even try to think the term has meaning?
  #87  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:00 PM
Disgruntled Penguin Disgruntled Penguin is offline
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If a tradition was something that was never violated, we wouldn't need laws at all. We could just rely on "traditions". Perhaps you should re-watch Fiddler on the Roof.
And if a tradition were something we cared about we could just make it a law.

I once saw Fiddler in a dinner show and honestly that show was the one that really introduced me to the magic of the stage and I enjoyed Tevye's performance much better live than in the movie. It wasn't just the performance though that was superb it was having it all happen so close to you really kicked the immersion into overdrive. Maybe I was too mesmerized by the performance to learn the "tradition" lesson but again, when push came to shove bye bye traditions. Traditions do make cool stories.
  #88  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:23 PM
astorian astorian is offline
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Sigh... Seems like only yesterday that left-leaning Dopers were fretting that Dubya was just about to cancel the elections and remain in office forever!

If you must entertain paranoid fantasies, come up with an original one. Please.
  #89  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:52 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
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So it's not disturbing to you that >50% republicans support getting rid of those pesky elections because someone, somewhere, at some point thought GWB might do it?

Can you walk us through your logic on that one?
  #90  
Old 08-13-2017, 08:37 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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Y'know...I don't necessarily disagree that if you conduct a poll of the population (especially the American population) at any moment in history, about any subject, the results would shock the shit out of us. It doesn't surprise me that 1/2 of Republicans said yes to the possibility of post-poning elections. The good news, if I recall my facts correctly, that maybe only 35% of the country is Republican. So that means that perhaps 17% of the country actually supports moving the elections based on that single poll. I'm not sure that this metric alone would worry me much.

But time and context matter, and right now, we're living in era in which someone who made no effort to hide authoritarian impulses became president by receiving 46% of the vote. State differently, more than 60 million voters knowingly voted for an authoritarian. As I've said numerous times on other threads, polls don't really mean that much, but votes do. And the poll that was taken on November the 8th said everything we need to know about the state of the country. And we're not in a good state right now.
  #91  
Old 08-14-2017, 05:23 AM
Disgruntled Penguin Disgruntled Penguin is offline
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Sigh... Seems like only yesterday that left-leaning Dopers were fretting that Dubya was just about to cancel the elections and remain in office forever!

If you must entertain paranoid fantasies, come up with an original one. Please.
I first heard this about Nixon and I'm sure I would have heard about it earlier if I was older. I have never heard about the idea getting traction among the president's supporters before and that's a little different. I don't think it necessarily mean that the situations are different but the world is different. We now live in a polling world without responsibility. People love to say provocative things when asked.

Last edited by Disgruntled Penguin; 08-14-2017 at 05:24 AM.
  #92  
Old 08-14-2017, 06:08 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Sigh... Seems like only yesterday that left-leaning Dopers were fretting that Dubya was just about to cancel the elections and remain in office forever!

If you must entertain paranoid fantasies, come up with an original one. Please.
So the fear of elections being postponed or cancelled is equivalent to the desire to postpone or cancel elections?

Try again.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 08-14-2017 at 06:08 AM.
  #93  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:30 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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The paranoid fantasies are what's equivalent.

Don't bother trying again.

Regards,
Shodan
  #94  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:40 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Can't be said often enough, both sides do it. At any rate, some folks never get tired of saying it.
  #95  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:46 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
Can't be said often enough, both sides do it. At any rate, some folks never get tired of saying it.
I'm still looking for the Universal Law that supposedly causes this to be true: That it is impossible for one group of people to act any better, or any worse, than another group of people-Therefore, if one group says and/or does something, it can be safely assumed that this forces the other group to say and/or do something equivalent.
  #96  
Old 08-14-2017, 11:09 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
All polling works like that. Do you think there is ever a poll where all 300M Americans are asked to respond?
Well elections come pretty close.
  #97  
Old 08-14-2017, 11:17 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Depends on whether they are "rigged" or not, what with the massive voter fraud.
  #98  
Old 08-14-2017, 11:28 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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The Universal Law isn't "both sides are equally bad". The Universal Law is "your side is worse".

Regards,
Shodan
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