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  #101  
Old 04-22-2017, 07:34 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I have to ask, do these "feminist" men still turn into blubbering idiots when they see a woman flashing alot of cleavage or otherwise, showing off alot of skin? Are they even turned on by big boobs or does that part of man-think go away?
I read this to my husband. His response was:

*broad grin* ''Boobies.''

You seem to think that feminism and masculinity in men are mutually exclusive. In reality, whether someone exhibits feminine or masculine traits has nothing to do with whether they view women as equals. The idea that embracing gender equality takes away one's manliness is just something misogynists made up to feel better about being assholes.
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  #102  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:40 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I read this to my husband. His response was:

*broad grin* ''Boobies.''

You seem to think that feminism and masculinity in men are mutually exclusive. In reality, whether someone exhibits feminine or masculine traits has nothing to do with whether they view women as equals. The idea that embracing gender equality takes away one's manliness is just something misogynists made up to feel better about being assholes.
This reminds me of another observation; that many feminist women are as likely, or almost as likely, as non-feminist women to be attracted to men who are tall, wealthy, ambitious, confident, older, etc. - in other words, embodying the "traditional" manly image of a man, even though that may be associated as more 'patriarchal'.

Being feminist or non-feminist often doesn't change biology or biological attraction/preference.
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  #103  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:12 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Being attracted to women doesn't require one to exhibit masculine personality and behavioral traits, nor does an embrace of feminist perspectives require one to relinquish tendencies to be attracted to women. The impact of feminist perspectives on masculine traits is less clear-cut: it is a perspective that tends to revalorize many traits considered feminine, and to examine conventional masculinity with a critical eye. But to the extent that we're talking about attributes of personality rather than socially loaded examples of privilege, it does at most formidable merely undo a bit of enshrining of some masculine characteristics.
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  #104  
Old 04-23-2017, 08:40 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
What?

You want to know if a man who lets a woman hold a door for him "even likes to look at tits anymore". What the fuck does that have to do with catching a glimpse of someone's breasts when they bend over? Are you saying that men mostly hold doors for women so they can look down their shirts as they pass, and that men who let women open doors must be perversly willing to forgo the opportunity?
Well no, you still dont get what I meant. I was asking do feminist men still get turned on by women's bodies?

It's like back in college. When the women would go lay out in their bikinis to get some sun, I suddenly had an urge to go play frisbie near them.
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  #105  
Old 04-23-2017, 08:42 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
I read this to my husband. His response was:

*broad grin* ''Boobies.''

You seem to think that feminism and masculinity in men are mutually exclusive. In reality, whether someone exhibits feminine or masculine traits has nothing to do with whether they view women as equals. The idea that embracing gender equality takes away one's manliness is just something misogynists made up to feel better about being assholes.
Add onto that, I dont think any man can say the word "panties" without smiling.
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  #106  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:09 AM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well no, you still dont get what I meant. I was asking do feminist men still get turned on by women's bodies?

It's like back in college. When the women would go lay out in their bikinis to get some sun, I suddenly had an urge to go play frisbie near them.
Why wouldn't they? What on earth do you think "feminist" means?
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  #107  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:10 AM
JackieLikesVariety JackieLikesVariety is offline
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apparently he thinks it means they are gay.
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  #108  
Old 04-23-2017, 11:02 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
This reminds me of another observation; that many feminist women are as likely, or almost as likely, as non-feminist women to be attracted to men who are tall, wealthy, ambitious, confident, older, etc. - in other words, embodying the "traditional" manly image of a man, even though that may be associated as more 'patriarchal'.

Being feminist or non-feminist often doesn't change biology or biological attraction/preference.
Well, sure. In many cases that is probably true. I do know people whose preferences have changed as they examined their own prejudices, but I find it unlikely that I will ever not be attracted to masculinity. My husband is 5'7'' and 160 pounds - not a masculine stereotype. He's gorgeous, but I didn't notice that until after fell in love with him. I fell in love with him because he is kind, intelligent, and gentle. So there's a difference between what one is naturally biologically attracted to and what one looks for in a mate. We look for shared values, wanting basically the same things out of life, and the ability to work as a team to achieve financial stability. We look for ''Can I spend 18 hours on a cross-country road trip with this person and not want to strangle him?" Whether he fits the biological stereotype of the ideal manly man is really way far down on my list of priorities.

To clarify: I have no problem with men being manly. I have a problem when men feel constant pressure to always be manly, at the cost of their mental health, and I have a problem when men are punished for displaying feminine traits. I also have a problem when manliness is associated with aggressive and controlling and abusive behavior toward women. I see them as two separate concepts that are often conflated.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 04-23-2017 at 11:05 AM..
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  #109  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:04 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well no, you still dont get what I meant. I was asking do feminist men still get turned on by women's bodies?
I guess I still don't get it either. Do you equate "male feminist=gay"?
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  #110  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:15 PM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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Maybe he's confused since feminist sounds a little like effeminate or feminine.

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  #111  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:20 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
I guess I still don't get it either. Do you equate "male feminist=gay"?
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
Maybe he's confused since feminist sounds a little like effeminate or feminine.

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Don't matter. Effeminate and/or feminine also doesn't equate to gay.
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  #112  
Old Yesterday, 12:27 AM
ruadh ruadh is offline
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I think UrbanRedneck is supposing that feminists think there's something inherently sexist about being sexually attracted to women's bodies, and that "male feminists" have somehow unlearned this attraction as part of their feministisation process.

I'm not sure if it's a serious question or not but it's not totally off the wall. The way that some feminists carry on about "objectification" of women, it almost does seem as though they find the very idea problematic.

I have encountered heterosexual men who regard themselves as feminist and feel guilty about their sexual attraction to women's bodies. These are the ones that self-describe as radical feminists, and spend inordinate amounts of time on social media lecturing sex workers and their allies that they're doing feminism wrong.
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  #113  
Old Yesterday, 04:11 AM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Originally Posted by ruadh View Post
I think UrbanRedneck is supposing that feminists think there's something inherently sexist about being sexually attracted to women's bodies, and that "male feminists" have somehow unlearned this attraction as part of their feministisation process.

I'm not sure if it's a serious question or not but it's not totally off the wall. The way that some feminists carry on about "objectification" of women, it almost does seem as though they find the very idea problematic.

I have encountered heterosexual men who regard themselves as feminist and feel guilty about their sexual attraction to women's bodies. These are the ones that self-describe as radical feminists, and spend inordinate amounts of time on social media lecturing sex workers and their allies that they're doing feminism wrong.
As stated above, I find some women's bodies sexually attractive too. The difference is not in the attraction but the reaction to the attraction. One can discreetly enjoy another person's appearance without treating that person as if the sole purpose of their existence is to provide you with enjoyment. I like boobs (generally speaking) and yet when talking to an alluringly be-boobed person I somehow manage not to turn into Encino Man, staring, drooling and trying to grab the pretty gazongas (or stuttering "Th-th-thank you!" for any inadvertent cleavage views). See, I have this incredibly clever trick I do in these instances. It's called "treating the other person as a person". I know it sounds crazy, but it works!

(I kid, but this is entirely the point of the "objectification" argument - not that you should never find another person attractive nor that you should never try to establish a sexual relationship with anyone in an appropriate context, but rather that your attraction and your sexual desire do not entitle you to treat another person like an object existing purely for your personal gratification. I don't know why this is so hard to understand for some people.)
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  #114  
Old Yesterday, 08:02 AM
TokyoBayer TokyoBayer is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well no, you still dont get what I meant. I was asking do feminist men still get turned on by women's bodies?
What. The. Fuck?

Can you please tell us what a feminist man means to you?

There's more to the conversation, but there needs to be at least some understanding of the terminology in order to continue.

In your view, what makes a man a feminist? What means that a man isn't?
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  #115  
Old Yesterday, 02:34 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by ruadh View Post
I think UrbanRedneck is supposing that feminists think there's something inherently sexist about being sexually attracted to women's bodies, and that "male feminists" have somehow unlearned this attraction as part of their feministisation process.

I'm not sure if it's a serious question or not but it's not totally off the wall. The way that some feminists carry on about "objectification" of women, it almost does seem as though they find the very idea problematic.

I have encountered heterosexual men who regard themselves as feminist and feel guilty about their sexual attraction to women's bodies. These are the ones that self-describe as radical feminists, and spend inordinate amounts of time on social media lecturing sex workers and their allies that they're doing feminism wrong.
That is pretty close to my thinking.

I think this picture explains it.

It just seems to me that "feminists" hate it when say men get turned on by sexy women's bodies. That whole term "objectification" is they get mad at men for being... well men. I knew one woman who told me "I should be able to walk down the street totally naked and you shouldnt do anything about it". Probably also why so many feminist women dress so dumpy.
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  #116  
Old Yesterday, 02:41 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by TokyoBayer View Post
What. The. Fuck?

Can you please tell us what a feminist man means to you?

There's more to the conversation, but there needs to be at least some understanding of the terminology in order to continue.

In your view, what makes a man a feminist? What means that a man isn't?
To be honest, it gets confusing.

Can one be all for equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, all that but still be proud to be a guy and ok to get turned on by a hot womans body? Granted I know you can look but dont touch or allow yourself to be seen looking.

So I need to ask you, is a feminist man required to turn off the "boobies are hot" part of their brains?
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  #117  
Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM
raventhief raventhief is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
That is pretty close to my thinking.

I think this picture explains it.

It just seems to me that "feminists" hate it when say men get turned on by sexy women's bodies. That whole term "objectification" is they get mad at men for being... well men. I knew one woman who told me "I should be able to walk down the street totally naked and you shouldnt do anything about it". Probably also why so many feminist women dress so dumpy.
The picture you posted is a person (the caption calls her "ugly lady") holding a sign that says "Women are not for decoration."

Do you, Urbanredneck, consider attractive women to decoration?

ETA - do you find the idea that a woman should be able to be naked without you "doing anything" to be a perplexing thought?

Last edited by raventhief; Yesterday at 03:15 PM..
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  #118  
Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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What sort of thing do you believe you should be allowed to "do" if confronted by a naked lady?

Smiling and nodding are probably acceptable to anyone who would put herself in that situation, if conversation is called for then I personally find that saying "hubba, hubba" is fine if you follow it with a sincere compliment about her hairstyle or makeup.

But, a woman is not an ornament, she is person, and how she chooses to dress or present herself is nobody else's business.
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  #119  
Old Yesterday, 03:41 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
Can one be all for equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, all that but still be proud to be a guy and ok to get turned on by a hot womans body?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
So I need to ask you, is a feminist man required to turn off the "boobies are hot" part of their brains?
No.

They are required to view women as human beings who do not exist solely for their gratification. They are required to treat people with respect regardless of their gender.

What this means varies greatly depending on the context. It's one of those things that requires judgment in the moment. If you see a pretty woman on the street, as you well know it's not appropriate to grab her and kiss her. But if you're on a date, and she is making eyes at you, and smiling, and leaning toward you, it's a very different story. You may have the exact same physiological reaction in both cases, but your behavior will be different depending on the context. Some people really cannot tell the difference. Their mentality is, ''I see this thing, it exists for my pleasure, I am entitled to it'' and that's how you get creeps following women down the street, leering at them, shouting obscenities, etc. That's how you get domestic violence (at my org, fully 60% of domestic violence incidents involve sexual assault). Domestic violence toward women is a form of objectification; it is predicated on the idea that a woman is a thing to own and control. Objectification is how you get date rape and all other sorts of evils.

Now most men, even men who do not identify as feminists, would not engage in these awful behaviors, but their silence in the face of them indicates tacit approval. They may undermine a woman's view of things or handwave away her story of assault (just peruse the Dope if you're looking for good examples), or they might not speak up if they see a woman being harassed, and that, IMO, is where the onus of responsibility lies on most feminist men. To be a feminist man means you can't just sit back and let that shit happen.

Being turned on by a woman is human, natural, beautiful. Disrespecting her as a person is not.

I don't think that meme is consistent with feminist values at all. Women are not, in fact, decorations and the protestor's personal level of attractiveness has jack shit to do with the validity of her argument. The meme actually proves her argument - she is being treated as an object, a less desirable one than the other objects in the picture. In reality, the worth and value of every woman in that picture transcend whether some meme-creating asshole thinks she's hot or not. (I see this as very different than say, posting a picture of a woman you find attractive -- there is no inherent value judgment in that, just ''this chick's hot'' which is human enough.)

Last edited by Spice Weasel; Yesterday at 03:44 PM..
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  #120  
Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
To be honest, it gets confusing.

Can one be all for equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, all that but still be proud to be a guy and ok to get turned on by a hot womans body? Granted I know you can look but dont touch or allow yourself to be seen looking.

So I need to ask you, is a feminist man required to turn off the "boobies are hot" part of their brains?
It's not as stupid a question as some people may be thinking it is. Some feminists HAVE EVER expressed the sentiment that it is always evil and wrong to sexually objectify someone. Or at least for a man to do so to a woman because of the existing power imbalance.

Most of the feminists with whom I've had that kind of conversation have said that the problem isn't objectification in and of itself, but rather a tendency to let it take priority over treating people as people in virtually any context -- and that it is the pattern of men doing THAT towards women that is part and parcel of the existing power imbalance. Thus, it isn't always wrong to respond to a female person with a reaction mostly grounded in having the hots for her, even if who she is is a former senator and a brilliant oil painter. Context is everything. If you're chairing a debate and she's a participant, it's totally inappropriate to deal with her as a cutely curvy attractive person and ignore her as a proponent of tax credits for carbon footprint reduction who has a track record of reaching across the aisle.

Sexuality being what it is, anyone can be struck at any time with a powerful impression of someone else as a deliciously attractive sex object, and yes it can eclipse other impressions of that person. Feminists don't say that this never happens to female people; they say that as women they learned to hide and suppress and subsume that reaction, and that men whose attraction is towards women have learned instead to embrace that reaction with a "hot damn!" because gee how could it ever be inappropriate because after all that's why women were put on earth iddn't it? etc;

There's other feminist observations about male sexual behavior, observations made with varying degrees of irritation and critical dissection, to which an attracted male's behavior could run afoul. There is a lot to be learned by NOT assuming you know which differences in sexuality are built in biologically and which aren't, and looking at your own (and other men's) sexual behaviors as they differ from women's and analyzing them yourself, just to be thinking about it. Is there, for example, something about a lot of stereotypical male reaction that makes it all about his appetite and very little about whether or not he is attractive to her in return? Might there be a reason for that, a social reason?
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  #121  
Old Yesterday, 04:27 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
It's not as stupid a question as some people may be thinking it is. Some feminists HAVE EVER expressed the sentiment that it is always evil and wrong to sexually objectify someone. Or at least for a man to do so to a woman because of the existing power imbalance.
Some feminists have claimed penetration is in itself a violent act. They hardly represent the majority, but that's why it's so difficult to generalize about feminism. Each individual woman has her own view of what that means. This is markedly obvious from a generational perspective, but even within generations, there are differing views of what feminism is, and some factions are quite hostile toward one another. It's like trying to define what it means to be a Republican or a Democrat - it's going to mean different things to different people. Maybe one person resonates especially powerfully with foreign policy, and another person cares more about economics. These opinions about what issues are most important are usually grounded in our own personal experiences. Personally, my pet issues are sexual assault and gender norms because these are two issues I have seen have a detrimental impact on many, many people.

This is one reason it's so irksome to see folks generalizing about ''feminists'' because they are assuming an entire set of beliefs or attitudes that I may or may not hold. I don't hate men, resent them for their sexual attraction toward women, or despise masculine traits. There are some feminist issues where I have no idea how I feel, and certainly my feminist husband and I don't always see eye to eye (he has a much bigger problem with porn than I do, personally.)

So, I admit it seems like kind of a WTF question, urbanredneck, but at least you are bothering to ask. Any attempt to understand goes far in my book.
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  #122  
Old Today, 08:06 AM
TokyoBayer TokyoBayer is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
That is pretty close to my thinking.

I think this picture explains it.

It just seems to me that "feminists" hate it when say men get turned on by sexy women's bodies. That whole term "objectification" is they get mad at men for being... well men. I knew one woman who told me "I should be able to walk down the street totally naked and you shouldnt do anything about it".
As Spice Weasel stated, feminism does not speak with one voice. Anyone with a passing interest would understand that, and it seems that the ones who are most dismissive of women's rights are the least to understand.

It needs to be noted that in this very thread, no one is espousing such radical feminism, yet this is the definition you seem to have stuck in your mind. After you posted your first comment on sexual attraction a number of guys have posted that they consider themselves feminists have stated that they can feel sexual attraction and still be able to control their brain. Female posters have stated that their husbands have not had that part of their brain ripped out. Yet, it's still "confusing" to you. Why?

Your question has been asked and answered, yet you are refusing to understand. What is the reason for that? At some point, it's no longer the other person's responsibility to explain, it's your responsibility to try to understand. (Unless you don't care, which I suspect may be the case.)

Let's go back to the post in question. You posted it on a public message board, so you must not realize how offensive it is not only for women but for men as well.
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Wow, are you clueless on men's brains.

Let's say a guy drops something, you being the helpful person, bend over to pick it up for him and he gets a good look down the front of your shirt at your beautiful and ample busoms. When you stand up he stutters slightly and says thank you, or maybe... thank you!
There are so many really, really horrible assumptions here.

First horrible assumption is that men's brains are hardwired and their nature can't be changed. Men can't control themselves so we have to bundle women's bodies up in burlap. If you don't agree with that, then what exactly is the difference between those who advocate the burqa and you?

You, yourself, can control yourself in public with the right situation. If the hot girlfriend of a Hellís Angel accidently flashed herself at you right now and her biker boyfriend was scowling at you, watching your reaction, what would you do? You damn well know that you are going to avert your eyes. Likewise for your pastorís wife. See? You donít have to give up the man card just to exercise common curtesy.

Why is it that you can control this part of your brain when the tits belong another guyís wife/girlfriend but you canít when theyíre on a woman by herself? Is it that you have a basic respect for other guys where you donít have a similar respect for women?

Tell me this. Exactly how long would a care giver last, if he couldnít learn to control this tendency to become a babbling idiot when exposed to the breasts of a mentally challenged, but physically developed 14-year-old girl? The reptilian part of the brain doesnít place a check there. The cerebral cortex does.

Iím working right now with my six-year-old son on teaching him that not all emotions need to demonstrated in public. Donít care if you feel angry, but control it. Are you claiming less self-control than a child?

Second, you are saying boorish behavior is excusable and acceptable. We've had a couple of zillion threads here in which women say that unwanted sexual attention is not cool. What exactly is "thank you!" if not unwanted sexual attention?

Do you not see the difference between you wife being happy that you like her tits and some random stranger confronted with you getting turned on?

Yet, you are going to expect that others control their sexual desires. How many times have you had men get excited about seeing your genitals while youíre showering at the gym? None, right? But guess what? There is a non-zero percentage of men are attracted to other men. Youíre claiming that men are unable to contain their sexual desire yet we have damn good evidence that gay men are able to hide theirs.
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Probably also why so many feminist women dress so dumpy.
Right, because the only reason to judge a woman is on her dress, right?

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Can one be all for equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, all that but still be proud to be a guy and ok to get turned on by a hot womans body?
Wow. I have to conclude that since your definition of "feminist" is someone who is all for "equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, and all that" and that you strongly do not identify yourself as a feminist, that you do not support that. Good to know this.
Quote:
So I need to ask you, is a feminist man required to turn off the "boobies are hot" part of their brains?
No. We simply act civilized. And show the same level of respect to women that all men are capable of showing other men. Thatís all. Is that really too much?
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  #123  
Old Today, 08:27 AM
chaika chaika is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
That is pretty close to my thinking.

I think this picture explains it.

It just seems to me that "feminists" hate it when say men get turned on by sexy women's bodies. That whole term "objectification" is they get mad at men for being... well men. I knew one woman who told me "I should be able to walk down the street totally naked and you shouldnt do anything about it". Probably also why so many feminist women dress so dumpy.
Sweet Jesus. Do you really not see the distinction between sexual attraction and objectification?

As for "why so many feminist women dress so dumpy," I hardly know where to begin. How many feminists do you actually know? How are their sartorial choices related to their ideology (and how do you draw this conclusion)? And what does it have to do with you anyway? Do you think women should dress to please men? If so, why? Should men also dress to please women? If not, why not?
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