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  #1  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:33 PM
Salvor Salvor is offline
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I'm tired of hearing about North Korea, the regime needs to be obliterated

You all have heard about Otto dying, who knows what they did to him to render him a vegetable, but this kind of thing often happens there.

Labor camps, torture, murder, hostages. How many DECADES of that is tolerable to allow continue in the world?

It's literally like seeing The South be successful seceding from the union, and persisted for another century or more with a slave state.

Would it not be just and right to just go in guns blazing and remove the regime? Too many deaths? There would likely be hundreds of thousands of lives lost, if not millions. Seoul would be targeted and many would die there. Is that a reason to let a slave state persist for decades on your doorstep?

The bloodiest American war, by FAR, was the civil war, we did not lose ~5k soldiers like Iraq, or tens of thousands like Vietnam or the Korean War, we lost over HALF a MILLION Americans in that war. Was that worth it? Knowing the loss of life? If you had a magic wand that would have spared us the war, at the low price of another century of slavery and misery in a separate southern nation, would you do it?

At what point do we just say fuck it, no more? You vile men, evil men, who would sit atop an enslaved nation for your own benefit, now it's time to be removed, or Die.
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  #2  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:36 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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If you are tired of hearing about NK, obliterating the regime will make you hear about it 10x more.

The toppling of the Saddam regime in 2003 made Iraq show up 10x more in the media than pre-2003.
  #3  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:44 PM
Richard Parker Richard Parker is offline
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I think the people actually facing millions of casualties--South Korea--ought to be the ones to decide, not the Americans.
  #4  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:45 PM
Salvor Salvor is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
If you are tired of hearing about NK, obliterating the regime will make you hear about it 10x more.

The toppling of the Saddam regime in 2003 made Iraq show up 10x more in the media than pre-2003.
What happened in Japan? Did the Japanese fight to the last man? No, the emperor, unlike many in the middle east, was not a DEATH cultist and wanted his people to survive and thrive. He called for his countrymen to stand down, over the objections of some in his government. There did not exist different ethnic religious factions of the same type that Iraq had, kurds, arabs, sunni, shia, yazidis, minority christians. Centuries old blood feuds.

Would Removing the North Korean regime REALLY produce that kind of conflict? Are the North Koreans like the Iraqi population?


This is one of those blind spots of the anti war always and forever crowd. Vietnam was a mistake, Iraq was a mistake, lesson = do not intervene in other countries, do not engage in optional wars. What about the Korean war? What was the result of that? We have an EXAMPLE of what a unified Korea could have looked like in the North, that was a semi successful intervention, South Korea is a prosperous and thriving nation. Is it SO terrible to try to get to that state via war? What if war is the price to get on the path to that place for N Korea? Don't bother because "WAR = BAD?"
  #5  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:46 PM
Salvor Salvor is offline
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I think the people actually facing millions of casualties--South Korea--ought to be the ones to decide, not the Americans.
On that I agree, but if they did decide they had enough, I would be fully behind having the US military assist them to full effect. I sometimes wonder if the people who are intrinsically against optional wars would want to wash their hands of that as well.
  #6  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:51 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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If the International Community* were to intervene in one place in the world today, it should be Syria. As bad as NK is, Syria is worse. Not that I recommend intervention, but if that could work, I'd vote for Syria. If only that Humpty Dumpty could be put back together again, even under Assad, it would be a miracle.

*Not the US. We've done enough stupid things by ourselves
  #7  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:19 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is online now
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It is absolutely impossible that Syria could have a stable government under Assad, as long as Assad's regime continues the war will continue. It is also impossible that Syria could have a stable government under ISIS, because obviously. It is also impossible for the so-called "moderate rebels" to defeat Assad or ISIS. It is also extremely unlikely that ISIS could defeat Assad, due to the support of his patrons, Russia and Iran. Assad isn't going to be dislodged any time soon, but meanwhile he is so weak that half his country is under rebel control.

So there is absolutely no hope of the Syrian civil war ending any time soon.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:21 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I know. I was engaging in magical thinking. Hence the Humpty Dumpty reference.

And since magic doesn't exist, let's not go invading countries to "fix them" anytime soon.

Last edited by John Mace; 06-19-2017 at 06:22 PM.
  #9  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:36 PM
Dissonance Dissonance is offline
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Originally Posted by Salvor View Post
What happened in Japan? Did the Japanese fight to the last man? No, the emperor, unlike many in the middle east, was not a DEATH cultist and wanted his people to survive and thrive. He called for his countrymen to stand down, over the objections of some in his government. There did not exist different ethnic religious factions of the same type that Iraq had, kurds, arabs, sunni, shia, yazidis, minority christians. Centuries old blood feuds.
Are you high? You are seriously comparing the Imperial Japanese Army favorably to "many in the middle east" when it comes to a cult of death? You are aware of how miniscule the numbers of Japanese prisoners were taken, right? And that the masses of soldiers of the Iraqi Army couldn't surrender fast enough? I won't even try to educate you on the atrocities committed by the IJA in wars that Hirohito was perfectly fine with Japan starting, or your lack of understanding of the role of the emperor in the Japanese government.

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Would Removing the North Korean regime REALLY produce that kind of conflict? Are the North Koreans like the Iraqi population?
So regime change in North Korea would be like how easy regime change in Japan was (which for some inexplicable reason you think was easy) because - why exactly? They're both Asian countries so they must be the same? Gotcha.

Tell you what, I think the North Korean government must go too, so I'd like to volunteer you to go over there and die so I won't have to hear about North Korea anymore. You're okay with that, right?
  #10  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:41 PM
Salvor Salvor is offline
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
Are you high? You are seriously comparing the Imperial Japanese Army favorably to "many in the middle east" when it comes to a cult of death? You are aware of how miniscule the numbers of Japanese prisoners were taken, right? And that the masses of soldiers of the Iraqi Army couldn't surrender fast enough? I won't even try to educate you on the atrocities committed by the IJA in wars that Hirohito was perfectly fine with Japan starting, or your lack of understanding of the role of the emperor in the Japanese government.

So regime change in North Korea would be like how easy regime change in Japan was (which for some inexplicable reason you think was easy) because - why exactly? They're both Asian countries so they must be the same? Gotcha.

Tell you what, I think the North Korean government must go too, so I'd like to volunteer you to go over there and die so I won't have to hear about North Korea anymore. You're okay with that, right?

North Korea would probably be more difficult than South Korea because of the brain washing, but I still suspect it would be an easier unification compared to trying to get sunni/shia/religious minorities in Iraq to get along, on top of the ethnic arabs and kurdish population. The asians are not the same, but it's not as fractured as Iraq was. And look, North and South Korea were basically the same people not too long ago, this separation does not go back for literally centuries.
  #11  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:59 PM
Roderick Femm Roderick Femm is offline
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So many non-sequiturs, so little time. And not by someone who just registered!

To paraphrase someone else: you don't just walk in and change the regime in North Korea. They have huge batteries of conventional artillery trained on Seoul (the South Korean capital, population 10 million, located a few miles from the border) and a huge army poised to rush as far as they can get into South Korea, and no-one knows how small a provocation it would take to set all that going. No-one knows how the population would react to an attempted decapitation of the regime, due not only to propaganda but to the fact that conditions there have actually improved recently. Perhaps their nukes are far enough along that they could drop a couple on Japan.

A few stupid foreigners (stupid because they went there in he first place) run afoul of the NK government, and you think (using the word advisedly) that that is enough to justify a military effort that is likely to cost millions of lives. Have I got that right? Just so you don't have to "hear about" North Korea any more?

I suggest earplugs. I also suggest you are either trolling us or you are a moron.
  #12  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:40 PM
Athena Athena is offline
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I'm not an expert in North Korea, but I did go through a North Korea phase a few years ago and read every book I could find on their history, culture, and current regime. My take on why nobody nukes them from space is that nobody wants to deal with the aftermath.

Let's say we snap our fingers and the entire NK government is gone. Now South Korea and whoever they can convince to help are left with ~25M North Koreans. These folkds don't know how to function in the modern world or in a democracy; the little education they may have had is filled with lies; they and their parents and their grandparents grew up in a world filled with propaganda and miscommunication. Most can't hold jobs. Most are largely broken. We have enough refugees from North Korea who have made their way to South Korea/China/etc to teach us the realities of that situation.

So what does the world do with these people? Certainly the right thing to do would be to save them, but it's a big, expensive, complex, and difficult problem. I don't think any country wants to take that on right now, and won't unless the threat from Pyongyang gets much worse. Taking the government out is a simple problem compared with dealing with what comes next.
  #13  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:49 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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These folks don't know how to function in the modern world or in a democracy; the little education they may have had is filled with lies; they and their parents and their grandparents grew up in a world filled with propaganda and miscommunication. Most can't hold jobs. Most are largely broken. We have enough refugees from North Korea who have made their way to South Korea/China/etc to teach us the realities of that situation.
I have heard (not sure how factual this is) that years of famine in North Korea has led to a population that is significantly damaged both intellectually and physically.
  #14  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:59 PM
Frodo Frodo is offline
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I bet the OP's surname is not "Hardin"
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:11 PM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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As a compassionate human being, I would also like to see North Korea emerge from autocracy and privation. However, our recent performance in this area has left a bit to be desired. Last week the Trump admin announced we're sending 4000 more troops to Afghanistan. We've been liberating them for going on 16 years now. Iraq hasn't exactly been an unqualified success either. Plus, North Korea has nukes, and no one in their right mind would invade a country known to have and be ready to use WMDs.

I'm not opposed to all wars forever. I might support regime change in the DPRK. Show me a plan that doesn't start with the ever-popular "bomb them to the stone age" and I guess I'll see what I think of it.
  #16  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:24 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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I don't know...lets ask our ally Qatar who gave Hilary 1 million, who Trump is going to sell arms, who will host a fucking World Cup in winter and has 'legal slavery.'

In other words...JUSTICE IS AN ILLUSION.
  #17  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:26 PM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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Show me a plan that doesn't start with the ever-popular "bomb them to the stone age" and I guess I'll see what I think of it.
Advocates of war with North Korea should be aware we already did "bomb them [in]to the stone age" once before. Americans choose to gloss over this, but a reliable source, statistician Matthew White, believes America killed about TWO MILLION PEOPLE in our bombing campaign in the Korean War, most of them "civilians," if that term has meaning. That's exclusive of combat casualties on the front line.

Do you [the generic you, not the person I quoted] think it helped?

Last edited by Sailboat; 06-19-2017 at 09:28 PM.
  #18  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:38 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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It is absolutely impossible that Syria could have a stable government under Assad, as long as Assad's regime continues the war will continue. It is also impossible that Syria could have a stable government under ISIS, because obviously. It is also impossible for the so-called "moderate rebels" to defeat Assad or ISIS. It is also extremely unlikely that ISIS could defeat Assad, due to the support of his patrons, Russia and Iran. Assad isn't going to be dislodged any time soon, but meanwhile he is so weak that half his country is under rebel control.

So there is absolutely no hope of the Syrian civil war ending any time soon.

I really don't believe the 'moderate rebels' are more than partially preferable to ISIS or Assad.

And most groups are connected to Al Qaeda in various forms.
  #19  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:46 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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If there was a time for the United States to make the reckless decision to obliterate North Korea in a preventative war, it probably would have been sometime in the 1990s when communism was collapsing and China was still not really powerful enough to matter much. But let me be clear -- there's never been a convenient time to deal with North Korea. They've always had the capacity to make a war messy, and they're going to try to make it messier.

It's pretty telling how Trump came charging out of the gate to say that the era of strategic patience is over. Well I don't hear a lot about that now. If anything the last few months have shown a pretty profound level of fecklessness in Asia that probably emboldens Kim Jung Un even more.
  #20  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:16 PM
Monty Monty is online now
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Go in with guns blazing?Got news, for you, cowboy; China's not going to sit idly by while that happens.
  #21  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:25 PM
Daddypants Daddypants is offline
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Originally Posted by Salvor View Post
You all have heard about Otto dying, who knows what they did to him to render him a vegetable, but this kind of thing often happens there.

Labor camps, torture, murder, hostages. How many DECADES of that is tolerable to allow continue in the world?

It's literally like seeing The South be successful seceding from the union, and persisted for another century or more with a slave state.

Would it not be just and right to just go in guns blazing and remove the regime? Too many deaths? There would likely be hundreds of thousands of lives lost, if not millions. Seoul would be targeted and many would die there. Is that a reason to let a slave state persist for decades on your doorstep?

The bloodiest American war, by FAR, was the civil war, we did not lose ~5k soldiers like Iraq, or tens of thousands like Vietnam or the Korean War, we lost over HALF a MILLION Americans in that war. Was that worth it? Knowing the loss of life? If you had a magic wand that would have spared us the war, at the low price of another century of slavery and misery in a separate southern nation, would you do it?

At what point do we just say fuck it, no more? You vile men, evil men, who would sit atop an enslaved nation for your own benefit, now it's time to be removed, or Die.
How do you think China would react to this?

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  #22  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:40 PM
usedtobe usedtobe is offline
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Let's see... Back in 1952-53, the US had the DPRK on the ropes - all that was left was some monor "mopping up", as the expression goes.

Then the PLA came across the river in mass - and made things messy.

Best we could do was a "Truce".

But, yeah, I'm sure the PLA has better things to do nowadays...
  #23  
Old 06-20-2017, 07:18 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Salvor View Post
You all have heard about Otto dying, who knows what they did to him to render him a vegetable, but this kind of thing often happens there.
By all accounts, Otto was the Darwin award winner this year.

North Korea used to be in pretty good shape until the end of the cold war. There used to be serious and significant suppression of free speech in South Korea because North Korea was doing as well as if not better than South Korea. Then the soviet union collapsed and Kim Il Sung died and left the country to his son and shit went downhill fast. There was a smaller pie because the soviets weren't pumping money into North Korea anymore and the regime became more despotic as they tried to retain control in the hands of a few powerful families.

North Korea has an economy of 12 billion dollars. We could buy off North Korea with what we give to Egypt an Israel every year but its easier to justify spending money there for some reason. Sure most of that money would end up in the hands of the Plutocrats but at some point they will have too much to lose and will run off to France leaving their country in the lurch so they don't end up like Qaddafi.

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 06-20-2017 at 07:20 AM.
  #24  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:06 AM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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By all accounts, Otto was the Darwin award winner this year.
Yes, a good rule of thumb when visiting a ruthless, brutal, authoritarian cult of personality dictatorship (other than "don't go") is do not do anything whatsoever that might draw negative attention to yourself (unless you are actually willing to sacrifice your life as a matter of principal.)

You might ask if being worried about the consequences of stealing a banner is asking someone to be too paranoid, but if you are visiting a country where officials are executed for not applauding enthusiasticly enough, you absolutely should realize (if you aren't as stupid as a bag of hammers) that the consequences could be bad.
  #25  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:46 AM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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AFAIK, the only evidence of him stealing the banner comes from the North Koreans, so it's really impossible to evaluate its veracity. He may have done so, or the North Koreans may have thought he would be a useful pawn and fabricated the whole thing. There's really no way of knowing at this point.
  #26  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:21 AM
snoe snoe is online now
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AFAIK, the only evidence of him stealing the banner comes from the North Koreans, so it's really impossible to evaluate its veracity. He may have done so, or the North Koreans may have thought he would be a useful pawn and fabricated the whole thing. There's really no way of knowing at this point.
That surprised me -- I thought, at the time of his arrest, that there had been corroboration of the poster theft by some Americans (specifically members of his frat). But I can't find any such reporting now, two years later, so maybe that's my fallible memory.

I tend to think his confession was probably truthful, just because the details are so tawdry and dumb -- and didn't implicate the US government or anything spicy like that. But as you say, we can only guess at this point.

Poor kid.
  #27  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:22 AM
Mr. Miskatonic Mr. Miskatonic is online now
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AFAIK, the only evidence of him stealing the banner comes from the North Koreans, so it's really impossible to evaluate its veracity. He may have done so, or the North Koreans may have thought he would be a useful pawn and fabricated the whole thing. There's really no way of knowing at this point.
Given the clumsiness of the NK regime if they wanted to frame him for something they would have said espionage or other spy crimes. 'Stealing a flag' doesn't seem like something they would come up with.
  #28  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:30 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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Yes, a good rule of thumb when visiting a ruthless, brutal, authoritarian cult of personality dictatorship (other than "don't go") is do not do anything whatsoever that might draw negative attention to yourself (unless you are actually willing to sacrifice your life as a matter of principal.)

You might ask if being worried about the consequences of stealing a banner is asking someone to be too paranoid, but if you are visiting a country where officials are executed for not applauding enthusiasticly enough, you absolutely should realize (if you aren't as stupid as a bag of hammers) that the consequences could be bad.
If you want to debate the merits of an American visiting a country with whom we have no diplomatic relations, that's certainly something that can be debated. But there's no evidence that Otto Warmbier actually did what he was accused of. All you see is a grainy silhouette of someone removing something from the wall. What is being removed from the wall? Which wall? Who's removing it? Not at all clear. North Korea's regime can't give a straight answer on anything, so I wouldn't put much stock in their word that he did what he's accused of.
  #29  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:41 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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Given the clumsiness of the NK regime if they wanted to frame him for something they would have said espionage or other spy crimes. 'Stealing a flag' doesn't seem like something they would come up with.
They accused him of taking a poster down off of a wall and the only evidence they have is 2-4 seconds of a dark silhouetted figure removing something from a wall. There's no evidence at all that he did what he's accused of, and I do find it beyond odd that people are giving credence to a regime that essentially depends on the distortion of reality in order to exist.
  #30  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:43 AM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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If you want to debate the merits of an American visiting a country with whom we have no diplomatic relations, that's certainly something that can be debated. But there's no evidence that Otto Warmbier actually did what he was accused of. All you see is a grainy silhouette of someone removing something from the wall. What is being removed from the wall? Which wall? Who's removing it? Not at all clear. North Korea's regime can't give a straight answer on anything, so I wouldn't put much stock in their word that he did what he's accused of.
Well, that falls back on the even better advice "don't go there." If you stick your head into a warren of rabid wolverines, don't get all surprised if your nose gets chewed off.
  #31  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:44 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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AFAIK, the only evidence of him stealing the banner comes from the North Koreans, so it's really impossible to evaluate its veracity. He may have done so, or the North Koreans may have thought he would be a useful pawn and fabricated the whole thing. There's really no way of knowing at this point.
Is that video of him taking down he banner thought to be faked, or is it him doing something other than stealing the banner?
  #32  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:51 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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Go in with guns blazing?Got news, for you, cowboy; China's not going to sit idly by while that happens.
Indeed, consider how North Korea survived in the first place. Anywhere near the Yalu River, and China's going to have something to say about and they have a rather high tolerance for pain.
  #33  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:56 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Yeah, containing North Korea is a joint problem of South Korea, China, and Japan. They've done what they've needed to for decades now. So why would we want to override their wishes and put them all in danger?
  #34  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:16 AM
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Is that video of him taking down he banner thought to be faked, or is it him doing something other than stealing the banner?
Who can tell? You can't identify the person in the video, and there's no way to substantiate anything about when or where it was taken. It might be Otto. It might be staged. It might be the night cleaning staff dusting behind the banner.
  #35  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:42 AM
Monty Monty is online now
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Yes, a good rule of thumb when visiting a ruthless, brutal, authoritarian cult of personality dictatorship (other than "don't go") is do not do anything whatsoever that might draw negative attention to yourself (unless you are actually willing to sacrifice your life as a matter of principal.)

You might ask if being worried about the consequences of stealing a banner is asking someone to be too paranoid, but if you are visiting a country where officials are executed for not applauding enthusiasticly enough, you absolutely should realize (if you aren't as stupid as a bag of hammers) that the consequences could be bad.
I again find myself asking this question. Why are you buying into North Korea's narrative on Warmbier?
  #36  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:48 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Who can tell? You can't identify the person in the video, and there's no way to substantiate anything about when or where it was taken. It might be Otto. It might be staged. It might be the night cleaning staff dusting behind the banner.
Just to be clear, I have no idea if the video is anything other than real or if it's a fake. I was wondering if there was some consensus among analysts about this. Poor guy could have been just a pawn in the power play. But then, that is a real risk you take if you choose to go to that country.
  #37  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:51 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Is that video of him taking down he banner thought to be faked, or is it him doing something other than stealing the banner?
You can identify who that is from the video?
  #38  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:07 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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I have heard (not sure how factual this is) that years of famine in North Korea has led to a population that is significantly damaged both intellectually and physically.
About 25% of military conscripts are turned down in north Korea because childhood malnutrition made them mentally retarded. So off the bat, 25% of North Koreans have retardation due to starvation. That doesn't even factor in all the physical health problems caused by starvation and lack of medical care. Plus North Korea has a meth epidemic, so a lot of people are lost in addiction too.

On top of that the constant state sponsored terrorism has made people very emotionally damaged and destroyed any sense of community. People who escape into China are surprised by seeing strangers helping each other. That is rare in north Korea. Once people find out that everything they've been told is lies they stop trusting everyone.

Point is even if the regime falls many of the people are too physically and emotionally unhealthy to function. Supposedly the ones that escape into South Korea form a permanent underclass because they cannot cope with modern life.

It'll be another generation after the regime falls before they start getting on their feet.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-20-2017 at 12:09 PM.
  #39  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:21 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Go in with guns blazing?Got news, for you, cowboy; China's not going to sit idly by while that happens.
Indeed. China has always been the primary patron to North Korea and they want to keep it in place both as a military buffer zone against South Korea and Japanese incursion, and as a presence in the East China Sea creating instability and preventing dominance by the US-Japanese military alliance. This latest diplomatic incident is hardly justification for starting a regional war that could easily grow wider in effects and participants, particularly since the US Department of State has maintained a travel warning for over a decade which makes it clear that the State Department has little recourse for citizens detained, accused of, or convicted of violations of North Korean laws. From the most current warning statement:
Since the United States does not maintain diplomatic or consular relations with North Korea, the U.S. government has no means to provide normal consular services to U.S. citizens. The Embassy of Sweden in Pyongyang is the Protecting Power for U.S. citizens in the DPRK providing limited consular services to U.S. citizens who require emergency assistance. Although the U.S.-DPRK Interim Consular Agreement stipulates that North Korea will notify the Embassy of Sweden within four days of an arrest or detention of a U.S. citizen and will allow consular visits by the Swedish Embassy within two days after a request is made, the DPRK government routinely delays or denies consular access.
In other words, if you get into trouble, you may well be on your own, a reality that should be apparent to any visitor from the US.

If there was a time when the United States was clearly justified in attacking the North Korean regime, it was the illegal seizure of the USS Pueblo in 1968 and nearly year-long detention and torture of the captain and crew. However, because of Cold War tensions and being embroiled in Viet Nam (the attack occurred just a week prior to the Tet Offensive), diplomatic efforts to secure the return of the crew and quelling concerns by South Korea over a breaking of the armistice were applied in lieu of military action.

It is difficult to see how the threat or application of military force by the US or allies in the Far East will effectively dismantle or displace the DPRK government without risking millions of lives of South Koreans and a significant potential for a wider conflict that would serve no one. Pressing a diplomatic solution with the Peoples Republic of China to control and contain the Kim Regime in North Korea is by far the best option for everyone involved. The regime continues to exist, such as it is, by virtue of Chinese patronage, and convincing China to discourage the regime's nuclear ambitions (such as they can at this point) is the smartest move. If the US takes unilateral military action that results in anything less than a mostly bloodless removal of the Kim regime it will reflect poorly on the US and further strain diplomatic ties with allies in the region.

Yes, North Korea is a humanitarian disaster and is a blot in the history of 21st century global politics which has, despite a few specific conflicts, progressed to less open warfare and slowly nudging to greater democratic representation within nations, but the US has already engaged in one horrendously destructive war in the region that was not resolved to anyones' satisfaction and a future war on North Korea without at least the tacit support of China would be highly destabilizing and potentially lead to global conflict, notwithstanding the hash that someone like Putin could make elsewhere while the US is focused on conflict on the Korean Peninsula. We don't go to war over injustice done to one foolhardy US citizen only to kill millions more who are innocent of even the poor judgment or misfortune except to be in artillary or missile range of North Korea.

Remediation of the humanitarian disaster of North Korea is another topic entirely, and one that will require global assistance to an effort by South Korea to reintegrate the North Korean population. This is something that China most certainly does not want to support for numerous reasons and I frankly cannot conceive how the parties involved would come to terms with it (other than essentially making all of North Korea into a demilitarizied zone) even if the Kim Regime were to magically disappear or abdicate today. I've seen the comparison to the reintegration of Germany after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, but East Germany had citizens who were well educated, fairly aware of the false nature of government propaganda, and had at least basic skills and industry to join the West German economy. Even that integration as economically and socially painful, but was nothing compared to the enormous cost and social difficulty of the hypothetical reintegration of the Koreas.

Stranger
  #40  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:29 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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I commiserate with the OP, really. As an American, nothing irks me more than seeing complex, ongoing, highly volatile geopolitical conflicts that we can't resolve overnight by bombing the shit out of something.
  #41  
Old 06-20-2017, 06:57 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
I commiserate with the OP, really. As an American, nothing irks me more than seeing complex, ongoing, highly volatile geopolitical conflicts that we can't resolve overnight by bombing the shit out of something.
Oddly enough, that seldom stops us from bombing the shit out of them anyway. NK seems to be one exception, at least so far.

Last edited by John Mace; 06-20-2017 at 06:58 PM.
  #42  
Old 06-20-2017, 06:59 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
If the International Community* were to intervene in one place in the world today, it should be Syria. As bad as NK is, Syria is worse. Not that I recommend intervention, but if that could work, I'd vote for Syria. If only that Humpty Dumpty could be put back together again, even under Assad, it would be a miracle.

*Not the US. We've done enough stupid things by ourselves
This.
  #43  
Old 06-20-2017, 08:18 PM
OldOlds OldOlds is offline
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Originally Posted by Bayard View Post
As a compassionate human being, I would also like to see North Korea emerge from autocracy and privation. However, our recent performance in this area has left a bit to be desired. Last week the Trump admin announced we're sending 4000 more troops to Afghanistan. We've been liberating them for going on 16 years now. Iraq hasn't exactly been an unqualified success either. Plus, North Korea has nukes, and no one in their right mind would invade a country known to have and be ready to use WMDs.

I'm not opposed to all wars forever. I might support regime change in the DPRK. Show me a plan that doesn't start with the ever-popular "bomb them to the stone age" and I guess I'll see what I think of it.
I'm with you. Conceptually, NK just might be the one exception to my personal "no more regime changes" policy- but you need to throw in "and doesn't result in Seoul left an ash heap"
  #44  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:08 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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North Korea has definitely taken the lessons of Iraq, Libya, etc. to heart and made itself almost as regime-change-proof as a regime can be.
  #45  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:09 AM
Stringbean Stringbean is online now
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With well-coordinated, highly-targeted strikes couldn't we eliminate the Kim regime and it's military arsenal before they were even aware of what was going on?

I mean, Soviet tanks from the 1960's can only do so much in 2017....

The real issue is what to do with North Korea after the fall. It's not like deposing Saddam was the central quagmire of Iraqi Freedom.
  #46  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:13 AM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
North Korea has definitely taken the lessons of Iraq, Libya, etc. to heart and made itself almost as regime-change-proof as a regime can be.
Yep. And President Axis Of Evil formally adding them to the regime change list didn't help things.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 06-21-2017 at 12:18 AM.
  #47  
Old 06-21-2017, 05:01 AM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
With well-coordinated, highly-targeted strikes couldn't we eliminate the Kim regime and it's military arsenal before they were even aware of what was going on?
You mean something that will cause shock, and awe?
  #48  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:33 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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I can only assume you will be enlisting in the infantry so that you can be part of the occupying force that will patrol the streets of N Korea and put down any insurgency? Also, we'll need to raise taxes to cover the hundreds of billions it will cost to rebuild the country and educate the people, you're ok with that too, right?
  #49  
Old 06-21-2017, 06:37 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
With well-coordinated, highly-targeted strikes couldn't we eliminate the Kim regime and it's military arsenal before they were even aware of what was going on?

I mean, Soviet tanks from the 1960's can only do so much in 2017....

The real issue is what to do with North Korea after the fall. It's not like deposing Saddam was the central quagmire of Iraqi Freedom.
A war with North Korea would be an epic disaster. Sure, they'd end up being defeated, perhaps quickly or perhaps not. But they would go all out in doing everything possible to make the rest of Korea, Japan, the US, and perhaps even China pay a price for trying to overthrow Kim. When the dust clears, the US would almost certainly lose any and all credibility as a political partner in Asia, which would be then dominated by China.

The best option for the US is to put more political (and who knows, maybe some economic) pressure on China to stop protecting North Korea when they misbehave. This is why the strategic partnerships are so important for the United States. Asian countries have other options for leadership - perhaps not their favorite options but they exist. But America has only one option to project its power and influence in the region, and that's through alliances with partners. Act unilaterally, especially in ways that are deemed irresponsible, and the power and clout of the US goes way, way down.

Last edited by asahi; 06-21-2017 at 06:40 AM.
  #50  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:14 AM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
Also, we'll need to raise taxes to cover the hundreds of billions it will cost to rebuild the country and educate the people, you're ok with that too, right?
Nah, the occupation would pay for itself. We just have to liberate and sell their massive reserves of.... oil? rare earth metals? gold? gravel? There's something we want, right?

Barring that, we can always pay for the war with tax cuts.
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