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  #51  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:18 AM
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Tubadiva, that definitely sounds like a situation where it might be better to only bring over more recently active content, and leave the rest archived. (Maybe include a link at the top of each forum so that it's still there.) We don't need the vast majority of the site to be in the new database. That way the database doesn't have to become all that large, even if the new system requires a larger database.

Of course, maybe there's some forum software out there that can handle having active threads that need to be well-indexed and inactive threads that can be in an archive state until they get resurrected.

There's also one other problem that just occurred to me--there are external links to the site, and it would be good if they didn't break--if there was some way to keep the thread numbers and redirect to the new system.

Finally, if they do upgrade it, they'll need to stay on longer to tweak the UI until they get it right. We can't have a repeat of SultanTheme with parts of it broken--not once there is no option to use a classic theme.
  #52  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:48 AM
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Thanks for that detailed and informative post, TubaDiva. And things are much better this morning. I am no longer irked.*

*That was my five-letter word, but I enjoyed all the guesses.
  #53  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:49 AM
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It was, of course, an informative and encouraging post from Tuba Diva. But honestly - with this having been going on over two months, I feel someone needs to point out that it would have been helpful to post some of this background a month or more ago. Or were there such posts and I missed them? It greatly increases frustration when we have no idea what's going on (or if anything is going on) behind the scenes.
  #54  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:28 AM
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I’m glad to know TPTB are finally accepting that VB3 is the problem. No doubt they are aware that VB4 is also past end-of-life and that VB5 is notoriously problematic.

This is a BFD. Joy to our small part of the world.
  #55  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by TubaDiva View Post
There's nothing wrong with our server, or the hardware, or the tech support keeping the current version alive ó literally no improvements can happen until we get off vBulletin 3.8.3, because this old version of vBulletin requires a specific type of mySQL table that locks the entire database table anytime there are changes made to it, as opposed to a more modern version that only locks a specific row of the database. Any time traffic reaches a certain level and a great number of people are attempting to post at the same time (or automated internal house-cleaning processes kick in, such as the beginning of the month and/or weekend), it hits a bottleneck.
That's all I needed to hear. That they acknowledge that we exist is cause for hope.

As to what software we ought to upgrade to, I don't think anything but vBulletin will be able to import our database, so if you go with something else, moving all these threads will require a script to be developed and run. That will take man-hours and a lot of time to complete.

On the other hand, vB is a resource hog about some things, so moving to a slimmer, more modern platform might ultimately be our best chance for survival. As much as I hate the platform, we might have to go with something like Discourse just to stay afloat.
  #56  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:36 AM
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As to what software we ought to upgrade to, I don't think anything but vBulletin will be able to import our database, so if you go with something else, moving all these threads will require a script to be developed and run. That will take man-hours and a lot of time to complete.
Tuba, thanks for the update. I really appreciate it.

Greyson, I've posted about this before. vBulletin 4 is also end-of-life. vBulletin 5 is sloooooooooow. XenForo, Invision Power Board, and Woltlab Burning Board (the three other big commercial PHP/MySQL message board systems) can import vBulletin 3 databases out of the box. The importing process is pretty straight forward, although the conversion process will probably take a little while -- a day or so.

I know XenForo 2 can automatically redirect from old vBulletin URLs to new XenForo URLs. For example, the URL of this thread (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=890387) will redirect to something like https://boards.straightdope.com/thre...ubadiva.890387 .

XenForo (written by the same people who wrote vBulletin 3) and Woltlab are probably the fastest of the three.

Discourse is glorified chat.

Last edited by elmwood; 02-22-2020 at 11:39 AM.
  #57  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:51 AM
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This has been an extremely informative thread. Thank you, TubaDiva, for your heroic efforts and for keeping us informed! Based on my periodic visits to the board since since late last night when some magic was done to the database, there is no doubt that the problem has gone away. Previous experience suggests that the ongoing operation of the system will cause it to reappear, but let's hope for the best. It's extremely good news to know that TBTB care and are continuing to look at long-term solutions.

Last edited by wolfpup; 02-22-2020 at 11:53 AM.
  #58  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:51 AM
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I know XenForo 2 can automatically redirect from old vBulletin URLs to new XenForo URLs. For example, the URL of this thread (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=890387) will redirect to something like https://boards.straightdope.com/thre...ubadiva.890387 .
Ah, ok. We're on 3.8. That should work.

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Discourse is glorified chat.
Agreed. Ugh. But it's free glorified chat, though it would completely change the culture here.
  #59  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:11 PM
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Tuba Diva’s post was somewhat long- please don’t miss the part where she asks those of us inclined and able to support a fundraising to PM her with some idea as to what we, individually, could contribute to such.
  #60  
Old 02-22-2020, 02:37 PM
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Iím glad to know TPTB are finally accepting that VB3 is the problem. No doubt they are aware that VB4 is also past end-of-life and that VB5 is notoriously problematic.

This is a BFD. Joy to our small part of the world.
My understanding is that we have been on 3.8.3 as long as we have because everything after that is a different database structure ; I also just learned it also takes working with a different flavor of mySQL. Conversion of our existing database to this new structure and all it takes to get there is apparently a huge freakin' deal that greatly increases the size of the current database -- so the pun on "huge deal" is intentional.

The IT guys for the Sun-Times did not normally handle vBulletin and they came in knowing nothing about it and having to learn as they went. Not something you get up in overnight.

What went before is not as important as what faces us going forward.

Things appear to be more better after last night's optimization and I sincerely hope this holds us for a while until we can move on.

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  #61  
Old 02-22-2020, 02:47 PM
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Since the optimization helped, what about doing it regularly (weekly, monthly, quarterly)? Perhaps at least until the whole thing can be migrated to new message board software with a new database configuration.
  #62  
Old 02-22-2020, 02:47 PM
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I should say I deeply appreciate all the comments, especially from people with knowledge of the message board software. I'm learning from you and it's all much needed.

We really are all singing off the same page here, from management on down. Everybody wants a better experience and is ready to do what it takes to get us there within the confines of what is available in resources and budget. You can help get us there; you may be able to have actual buy-in to better outcomes. This is the community you built and it seems appropriate that you are here to take us forward as well.

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  #63  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:15 PM
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Since the optimization helped, what about doing it regularly (weekly, monthly, quarterly)? Perhaps at least until the whole thing can be migrated to new message board software with a new database configuration.
Since it has proven (so far) to be effective I would think it would be a tool for future consideration as needed. Hope we don't need it but we do seem to have something useful here.

As to whether it would be a routine part of our scheduled vB system sweeps, I don't know if it works like that or if it would be appropriate. I do know it's not an automated or scheduled procedure; an actual person has to be available to run it and check it. That by its nature puts this fix in a different category than the usual maintenance duties. It costs us extra, among other things, for the extra effort and time.

But we know it worked this time and may work again if needed and that is something we didn't have 24 hours ago.

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  #64  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:22 PM
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I simply can't thank you enough for all the information, Tuba Diva. I started this thread in deep frustration, not only from the issues but also from the dearth of information. It's amazing how much simply knowing what's going on alleviates all that.

I'm impressed by and grateful for the Sun Times' commitment to this site, which, as we all know, isn't exactly lucrative.

Please continue to keep us in the loop.
  #65  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:41 PM
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Thanks, nelliebly.

It is also my hope that with a better platform we'll keep the current users happy, attract new users, and even maybe coax some of our old Dopers to come back in.

We're not trying to keep you in the dark. Sometimes there is no information because we don't yet know fully what is going on or how to resolve an issue right away. This is especially true when there's a situation that involves different people and places and it's not like I can round all these cats up and get the continuing story out of them.

TPTB also have a newspaper to put out every day, with all the time and attention that takes. Not that they like the paper and hate us -- it's not personal at all, even -- it's that the paper is, say, the big meat on the plate and the SD is a side dish. We all want a complete meal but tasty as it might be your main focus is not on the sides.

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  #66  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:12 PM
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I simply can't thank you enough for all the information, Tuba Diva. I started this thread in deep frustration, not only from the issues but also from the dearth of information. It's amazing how much simply knowing what's going on alleviates all that.
That was my feeling too--that knowing what's going on helps. Many thanks for the information, Tuba; and I'll note that things are working much more smoothly for me today, so please pass along my thanks to whoever was working on it.
  #67  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:48 PM
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Perhaps she frightened her IT department, as things are clicking right along today. No spinning wheels, no time outs.
  #68  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:00 PM
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It is also my hope that with a better platform we'll keep the current users happy, attract new users, and even maybe coax some of our old Dopers to come back in.
It happened on my board when I scrapped vBulletin 4. It's not like it's 2005 again, but posting activity and traffic went up, and a lot of users we haven't seen in a while came back. The board runs a LOT faster, too. New member numbers stayed about the same, though. (Facebook groups and a subreddit in the same subject area stole a lot of my site's thunder.) Nobody complained about the switchover; the reaction was very positive.

Some Dopers will probably complain. The learning curve of a new message board system isn't that steep, but your muscle memory will need a week or two to adjust, especially for admin/moderation functions.
  #69  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:15 PM
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Tuba Divaís post was somewhat long- please donít miss the part where she asks those of us inclined and able to support a fundraising to PM her with some idea as to what we, individually, could contribute to such.
Color mine.

This if you can afford it folks.
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  #70  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:37 PM
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Upgrading the software makes sense. Although I'm a little skeptical about attracting previous posters and members back in with faster and better software (how many people really left because of that, at least up to the last 3 months or so?), at least the board would be able to keep current posters like me who have been about fed up, and for new ones who stop by to see what we are, they won't be turned off by timeouts and error messages.

I'm already a paid member, and I don't know about giving money to a business. I understand they're losing money. If they started making money from this board, where would it go? I also appreciate that they value the Straight Dope and want it to continue, but I've worked for newspapers all my life, and it's the rare paper (or parent company) that can afford to carry a money-losing proposition for very long.

If they could spin off the Straight Dope into a non-profit, so maybe contributions could be deductible, I'd definitely be a lot more willing.
  #71  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:51 PM
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TPTB also have a newspaper to put out every day, with all the time and attention that takes. Not that they like the paper and hate us -- it's not personal at all, even -- it's that the paper is, say, the big meat on the plate and the SD is a side dish. We all want a complete meal but tasty as it might be your main focus is not on the sides.
One thing that may help the board's viability is to make a greater connection to the paper. Maybe there are things that will drive traffic to the paper's website. Perhaps have a clickable headline or two at the top of the board which takes people those articles. That way they can attribute some of the paper's traffic to the board and the board won't have to live or die based on it's own revenue.
  #72  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:38 PM
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Upgrading the software makes sense. Although I'm a little skeptical about attracting previous posters and members back in with faster and better software (how many people really left because of that, at least up to the last 3 months or so?), at least the board would be able to keep current posters like me who have been about fed up, and for new ones who stop by to see what we are, they won't be turned off by timeouts and error messages.

I'm already a paid member, and I don't know about giving money to a business. I understand they're losing money. If they started making money from this board, where would it go? I also appreciate that they value the Straight Dope and want it to continue, but I've worked for newspapers all my life, and it's the rare paper (or parent company) that can afford to carry a money-losing proposition for very long.

If they could spin off the Straight Dope into a non-profit, so maybe contributions could be deductible, I'd definitely be a lot more willing.
That's what's happening to the Reader, you know; it's becoming a nonprofit. Apparently they have a better chance of staying around getting grants and donations and such as a nonprofit than they do in the commercial world. And of course old style dead tree publishing has been circling the drain for some time now; you hear about papers closing up shop all the time these days.

The Sun-Times is bucking that trend by continuing to fight for survival, to continuing to publish an actual buy it on the street paper paper. They're also promoting their digital side as well; they're reaching out to new markets and partnering with other companies to offer things they think people might like. I appreciate their fighting spirit and hope this pays off for them; it is truly a great battle as much as it is the triumph of hope over experience.

It's easy to be cynical and pessimistic; the strength of optimism can take you so different places maybe. At least you tried. I can live with that.

And they want to carry us too. I hope we can fight alongside them. It IS a business and we can't lose sight of that. It's also kind of a heroic quest; we're tilting at the windmill. Smart money sez publishing is dead meat. They might well be right but we're gonna do this just the same.

It is impossible to predict the future, so difficult to tell what might be where TSD ultimately goes. This is the path chosen so far and I'm determined to run down it as hard and as fast as I can for the greater benefit of this joint. It is our handbasket here and we may be on the way to hell, going directly to hell, do not pass GO, do not collect $200 but like the Sun-Times, all we can do is try.

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Last edited by TubaDiva; 02-22-2020 at 07:41 PM.
  #73  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:49 PM
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One thing that may help the board's viability is to make a greater connection to the paper. Maybe there are things that will drive traffic to the paper's website. Perhaps have a clickable headline or two at the top of the board which takes people those articles. That way they can attribute some of the paper's traffic to the board and the board won't have to live or die based on it's own revenue.
I'm pushing that too.

I think they have been hesitant to link to us too obviously mostly not wanting to offend potential advertisers who don't really want to see their product featured alongside questions like "what's the calorie count of sperm?" We may up ultimately putting some of the more robust content behind a screen or something so people can be advised straight up they're going to something that might be NSFW or that might be a shock to the system or inappropriate for children.

A lot of the stuff that was okay for the alternative newspaper world is often considered to be insensitive or even offensive in today's society. We didn't change but the culture did. The Sun-Times has to be sensitive to that.

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  #74  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:40 PM
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I don't have much money, but I'd gladly donate. Yes, the Sun Times is a business, but it's a business that believes in this place, and at a financial loss. If there's a way to make that more doable for them, I'm all for it.
  #75  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:04 PM
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I just read the thread; thank you, TubaDiva for such patient, detailed posts. Information does more to soothe than even music.
  #76  
Old 02-23-2020, 12:35 PM
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Jenny, if users want to "donate" to the SDMB, is there any way they can buy advertising? It might be something to consider for "SDMB 5.0".
  #77  
Old 02-23-2020, 01:12 PM
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As much as I hate the platform, we might have to go with something like Discourse just to stay afloat.
My bad. I confused Discourse with Discord, which a lot of subreddits use for chat. I'm still not a huge fan of the Discourse/Vanilla format, where the front page is a list of the most recently updated threads from the start, and subforums are in the form of thread category tags; the same concept as the new posts page on vBulletin/XenForo/IPB/etc. It's not easy to install. There's not the same number of plugins. It would involve a big shift in tech, too -- from PHP scripts and a MySQL database to Ruby on Rails and PostgreSQL.

Last edited by elmwood; 02-23-2020 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:49 PM
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My bad. I confused Discourse with Discord, which a lot of subreddits use for chat. I'm still not a huge fan of the Discourse/Vanilla format, where the front page is a list of the most recently updated threads from the start, and subforums are in the form of thread category tags; the same concept as the new posts page on vBulletin/XenForo/IPB/etc. It's not easy to install. There's not the same number of plugins. It would involve a big shift in tech, too -- from PHP scripts and a MySQL database to Ruby on Rails and PostgreSQL.
Discourse is pretty horrible. There's no nesting option and it's continuous scroll. Worst of all is that so very many of its internal functions are governed by number of likes received. It's not for us unless there's no other choice.
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:18 PM
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The Steve Hoffman Music Forum, which seems to get a lot of traffic* uses XenForo 2 and they don't have slowdowns like we've had here,


*Discussions:739,242 / Messages:22,338,583 / Members:90,280

Last edited by blondebear; 02-23-2020 at 02:18 PM.
  #80  
Old 02-23-2020, 05:14 PM
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why did it take almost 3 months to figure out the fix?
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:15 PM
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why did it take almost 3 months to figure out the fix?
Let's look at this in perspective.

Remember that what has happened over February -- where we started off with a huge mess because scheduled maintenance tasks for the end of the week AND the end of the month all came in on the same day and upset the system. Fixing that took some time.

And before and after that event the board was only intermittently troublesome; we had stretches where it wasn't happening much or at all. It is very difficult to find a problem when the board is operating smoothly. You would report your problem, I'd send it upstairs, they'd sign on and find ... nothing. What are you going to do with that?

Looking back performance did go downhill over February, culminating in this week's really hard time and finally a fix. It was only when it did get so hideous that this could be properly diagnosed.

Let's hope this keeps us stable for a while.

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  #82  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:13 PM
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Discourse is pretty horrible. There's no nesting option and it's continuous scroll. Worst of all is that so very many of its internal functions are governed by number of likes received. It's not for us unless there's no other choice.
IIRC Discourse has 1 or 2 levels of nesting? This nitpick aside, its selling point, as it were, is that it's free, open-source mailing list/forum software. Absolutely no idea how it scales to millions of posts (though that does not count as a lot these days? And Postgres is a project with some decades behind it.)
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:23 PM
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IIRC Discourse has 1 or 2 levels of nesting?
For threads, no nesting at all. Newest post goes on the bottom. You can see it in action at the new NaNoWriMo forums, but it should be noted that they had to move the boards to the Discourse servers because their usual servers couldn't handle the load.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:48 AM
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Well, that didn't last long.

Towards this evening (Sunday Feb. 23), some threads were loading kinda slowly. One took long enough to give a server time-out error.

But still, that's better less bad than it's been for a long time.
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Old 02-24-2020, 04:04 AM
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IIRC Discourse has 1 or 2 levels of nesting? This nitpick aside, its selling point, as it were, is that it's free, open-source mailing list/forum software. Absolutely no idea how it scales to millions of posts (though that does not count as a lot these days? And Postgres is a project with some decades behind it.)
It's also the forum by the guy who came here and asked us for what we wanted or would find useful in a forum, then told us none of it was stuff he'd implement because it wasn't what other people had said they wanted or needed. He even specifically said he did not expect current forum users who liked the way older forums worked to be interested in his new software.

Someone said it lacks subforums, which are kinda important here. Tags won't cut it for the Pit, for example. I also note it pushes community moderation with voting and all that stuff, which doesn't tend to be liked here. It even has "levels" of users where what a user is allowed to do is based on how long they've been on the forum. (even if you think the forum needs likes, those are rationed by your poster level!)

None of this seems compatible with the SDMB and what its users want in a forum. It seems more like a complete reinvention of the forum than replacement forum software.
  #86  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:00 AM
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Well, that didn't last long.

Towards this evening (Sunday Feb. 23), some threads were loading kinda slowly. One took long enough to give a server time-out error.

But still, that's better less bad than it's been for a long time.
What time was this? By any chance was it around the time the system does its cleanup and sweep (which is like 1 am Chicago time)?

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  #87  
Old 02-24-2020, 01:12 PM
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TubaDiva, I get that sometimes there's nothing to report, but if you could just post a quick note saying so when Dopers are complaining, it'd help keep frustration from reaching "I quit" levels. It may seem like we should assume that you know and are addressing the issues, but when a frustrating situation continues for days or weeks, people inevitably start to question if anyone's listening.
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:27 PM
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I will do my best but when people are frustrated if I tell them I have nothing to tell them they're not comforted by that.

NOT complaining about that; people are entitled to their feelings, especially when we are not giving them the best experience. I'm not saying they don't.

Managing expectations is not so easy but I will see if I can't find a better balance.

Jenny
your humble TubaDiva
  #89  
Old 02-24-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TubaDiva View Post
What time was this? By any chance was it around the time the system does its cleanup and sweep (which is like 1 am Chicago time)?
I'll note that the board seemed to be responding slowly (though I never got an actual time-out/50x error) around 10pm - 11pm on Sunday night.

Edit: I'll also note that I just got a server error when I tried to post this.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-24-2020 at 03:18 PM.
  #90  
Old 02-24-2020, 03:59 PM
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What time was this? By any chance was it around the time the system does its cleanup and sweep (which is like 1 am Chicago time)?

Jenny
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Sorry, don't remember specifically. I'll be more specific if I feel the need to report things again.

I think it was about early evening PST, so later evening (probably before midnight) Chicago time, so probably consistent with kenobi 65's post just above.
  #91  
Old 02-24-2020, 05:52 PM
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TubaDiva, thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. I don't think of myself as cynical and pessimistic, nor am I without hope, so if I came across that way, I assume I expressed myself badly.

I was lucky enough at my newspaper to survive multiple layoffs over 12 years to reach retirement, and the paper itself turned a corner several years ago to where they are marginally in the black now. Also the parent company had very deep pockets and were determined for the paper to survive. So I have some experience with non-negative outcomes. I like it here. I will be keeping my eyes open for opportunities to help it to continue.
  #92  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
I'll note that the board seemed to be responding slowly (though I never got an actual time-out/50x error) around 10pm - 11pm on Sunday night.

Edit: I'll also note that I just got a server error when I tried to post this.
Just looked at the log; there are a bunch of housecleaning tasks scheduled around 9:45-10:00 pm Chicago time. And then another batch around 1:00 am.

I don't know why they split them up like that -- I'm guessing this is trying to balance the load or something, I don't know for sure -- but that probably accounts for your hiccup.

I hope we don't have a lot of that. Or any of that, really, and I'm sorry to hear you had it.

Please keep me posted if you see this again. Note the time so I can try to find some reason for it.

Thanks.

Jenny
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  #93  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
TubaDiva, thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. I don't think of myself as cynical and pessimistic, nor am I without hope, so if I came across that way, I assume I expressed myself badly.

I was lucky enough at my newspaper to survive multiple layoffs over 12 years to reach retirement, and the paper itself turned a corner several years ago to where they are marginally in the black now. Also the parent company had very deep pockets and were determined for the paper to survive. So I have some experience with non-negative outcomes. I like it here. I will be keeping my eyes open for opportunities to help it to continue.
Thank you!

We need you; we need everybody. I hope to draw on you more as we move through the changes that are inevitably to come.

Jenny
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  #94  
Old 02-24-2020, 11:57 PM
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I don't think 10-11pm is really late enough. It would be better to schedule them on other days during the early morning, if at all possible. I note that I'm often up then, and have never seen any board problems overnight. It's always during the day. So there would seem to be more headroom at night.
  #95  
Old 02-25-2020, 07:11 AM
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We need you; we need everybody. I hope to draw on you more as we move through the changes that are inevitably to come.
Can I upvote this?

👍
  #96  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:23 AM
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I don't think 10-11pm is really late enough. It would be better to schedule them on other days during the early morning, if at all possible. I note that I'm often up then, and have never seen any board problems overnight. It's always during the day. So there would seem to be more headroom at night.
How did things look overnight?

Jenny
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  #97  
Old 02-25-2020, 05:35 PM
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How did things look overnight?

Jenny
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I work the night shift and was on this board all night. I didn't have any problems.
__________________
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  #98  
Old 02-26-2020, 10:11 AM
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as expected, it appears that the fix was only temporary. In trying to reply to this thread to say that I've noticed a few slowdows in the past few days but they have been rare and not produced errors, I just got a 504 Gateway Timeout at 11:04 AM EST.

ETA: On the positive side, most of the time the system is still running well.

Last edited by wolfpup; 02-26-2020 at 10:12 AM.
  #99  
Old 02-26-2020, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as expected, it appears that the fix was only temporary. In trying to reply to this thread to say that I've noticed a few slowdows in the past few days but they have been rare and not produced errors, I just got a 504 Gateway Timeout at 11:04 AM EST.

ETA: On the positive side, most of the time the system is still running well.
Same exact experience. I think it's just the new normal if we're sticking with this board software, server, etc.
  #100  
Old 02-26-2020, 11:16 AM
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Been noticing over the last hour or so that the buttons on top of the message boxes (both 'Quick Reply' and conventional) no longer work. For any linking, quoting, bolding, italics, etc. ... that has to be hand-coded.

EDIT: 502 error upon making this post, but I knew it had gone through.

Last edited by bordelond; 02-26-2020 at 11:17 AM.
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