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  #1401  
Old 09-22-2017, 07:57 PM
psychobunny psychobunny is offline
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Don't worry about McCain's health. If he is unable to vote they still have to get to 50 for a majority. They just won't need Pence. Either way, they need to lose 2 more votes or it will pass. I'm remaining in panic mode for the next 8 days and 3 hours.
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  #1402  
Old 09-22-2017, 07:57 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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He's fucking creepy. Weirdly shiny, too.
Ohhh. Ewwww!!
  #1403  
Old 09-22-2017, 08:42 PM
Leaper Leaper is offline
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Huh. That's how praying is supposed to work, is it?

Vote is next week, if it happens at all. The more unsteady the bill looks, the less likely McConnell will be to call for a vote. But the reconciliation deadline is September 30th, so it can't be voted on past that date.
Yeah, that seems to be the key to all this: how likely McConnell is to try to have the vote hoping that enough people cave or are just paying lip service. The nos sounding certain in public surely has an effect on his decision.
  #1404  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:12 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Huh. That's how praying is supposed to work, is it?

...
What do you mean?
  #1405  
Old 09-22-2017, 09:23 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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What do you mean?
Being a lifelong atheist, I can claim no understanding of prayer or how it's supposed to work. But it just seemed to me that with respect to Republicans praying a colleague (McCain) would die or become incapacitated prior to the next vote on legislation intended to deprive millions of people from potentially lifesaving health care was contrary to the spirit of the practice. Maybe.

That's all I meant. Sorry for any confusion!
  #1406  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:05 PM
digs digs is offline
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Being a lifelong atheist, I can claim no understanding of prayer or how it's supposed to work. But it just seemed to me that with respect to Republicans praying a colleague (McCain) would die or become incapacitated prior to the next vote on legislation intended to deprive millions of people from potentially lifesaving health care was contrary to the spirit of the practice. Maybe.

That's all I meant. Sorry for any confusion!
As a non-atheist, I got it. Thought it was a clever comeback.
And it's inspired me to pray for some horrible things to happen to people. Really specific things, like "Dear Architect of all Creation, I know You'd love to see that woman with the Gucci bag face-plant into that pile of fertilizer..."

And if Our Esteemed President is wheeled into an ambulance as he utters the phrase "Weasels ripped my flesh...", then I'll know there's a God (and a Zappa/SDMB fan... bonus!).
  #1407  
Old 09-24-2017, 12:36 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Eventually I'll stop pestering everyone in this thread (yes, even those who want GC passed), but today is not that day. Please consider calling your Senator to say please or thank you, your Reps to say please or thank you, donating to orgs that are fighting this, getting active on social media, etc. They are apparently trying to do some revisions. Even if you want to repeal the ACA, this process is fucked in the ear. Remember, if your party is in the majority, anything you do sets a precedent for the other party when they gain power, and they will.
  #1408  
Old 09-24-2017, 01:22 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Eventually I'll stop pestering everyone in this thread (yes, even those who want GC passed), but today is not that day. Please consider calling your Senator to say please or thank you, your Reps to say please or thank you...
Don't stop. Your posts are helpful and some of the most informative around on this complicated subject. Do continue!

However
Quote:
...donating to orgs...
I draw the line, Madam, at donating my organs while I'm still using them!

Oh... wait... donating TO orgs... that's different. Yeah, good idea. Carry on.

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 09-24-2017 at 01:22 PM.
  #1409  
Old 09-24-2017, 01:59 PM
JohnT JohnT is online now
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Looks like Ted Cruz and Mike Lee are coming out against Graham/Cassidy:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKCN1BZ0E7
  #1410  
Old 09-24-2017, 02:52 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Looks like Ted Cruz and Mike Lee are coming out against Graham/Cassidy:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKCN1BZ0E7
I assure you that if the GOP otherwise had the votes, these guys would be on board. Their principled stand is bullshit.
  #1411  
Old 09-24-2017, 03:42 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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I assure you that if the GOP otherwise had the votes, these guys would be on board. Their principled stand is bullshit.
Not to mention, they're in the Rand Paul "not cruel enough for me!" camp.
  #1412  
Old 09-24-2017, 03:56 PM
Ambrosio Spinola Ambrosio Spinola is offline
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I assure you that if the GOP otherwise had the votes, these guys would be on board. Their principled stand is bullshit.
If Ted Cruz is coming out against it, that means it's dead. It's not dead because he's coming out against it, but because he's such a snake that he knows it's dead and wants to claim some sort of victory on principle.

(He is one of my Senators.)
  #1413  
Old 09-24-2017, 04:47 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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That was my take too, Ambrosio Spinola.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 09-24-2017 at 04:47 PM.
  #1414  
Old 09-24-2017, 04:52 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Mine as well. Ted Cruz wouldn't come out "nay" before the vote unless he knew it was going to pass anyway, in the hope that this allows some to perceive his actions as principled. Mr. Cruz isn't really a risk taker, IMO.
  #1415  
Old 09-24-2017, 05:01 PM
JohnT JohnT is online now
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Cruz is one of my Senators too, and I have been calling his DC and San Antonio offices daily.

"Senator, this is JohnT. I thought that back in July, when I called you, imploring you not to kill us, that I didn't have to do it again after John McCain showed the moral courage which you and your team lacked. Yet, here I am again, asking you not to kill me and your constituents. I do not know what you think you were put into the Senate to do, but I don't think it was to kill us.

And, you, the staffer who is transcribing this... is this what you went to school for? To work for people who makes it easier to kill hibernating animals? To make it easier to rape my daughter? To take health coverage from 30 million people? Well, this is who you are becoming. And before you go further, ask yourself: What Would Jesus Do? And you will be dismayed that you cannot answer "He would do as we are doing."

You don't need this. Ted doesn't need this. And you don't want to stand in front of the Throne of Judgement and defend how you defended Donald Trump and these so-called 'conservative' values."

Stuff like that, I could literally go on all day in that vein.

Last edited by JohnT; 09-24-2017 at 05:02 PM.
  #1416  
Old 09-24-2017, 06:44 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is offline
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Both my Senators (Stabenow and Peters) are against G-C, but I've been trying to think of some message for them other than "Thank you." I finally thought of one: They need to speak more loudly and forcefully on how pro-entrepreneur and pro-lifethe ACA is. Stop merely standing firm against the repeal, but START TALKING THE ACA UP! Say what an amazing piece of legislation it's been for self-employed individuals, how it's encouraged more people to start businesses, and that any repeal of the ACA will cause many start-ups to suddenly fail. Get stories like my family's and this family's out so people see how great it's been for new businesses. Scream it from the rooftops, because all I hear is how lousy it is from Republicans. Why aren't Democratic politicians speaking in favor of it? That's what I asked my Senators to do in addition to thanking them.
  #1417  
Old 09-24-2017, 07:09 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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If the Democrats can beat back the current repeal effort, it would also be worth encouraging your senators to work towards fixing the things that need fixing in the ACA. Having it is better than not having it, but there are quite a few areas where it could stand significant improvement.
  #1418  
Old 09-24-2017, 07:22 PM
Leaper Leaper is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Mine as well. Ted Cruz wouldn't come out "nay" before the vote unless he knew it was going to pass anyway, in the hope that this allows some to perceive his actions as principled. Mr. Cruz isn't really a risk taker, IMO.
You're actually saying the exact opposite of what is quoted above, unless you actually do NOT think the bill will pass, and the "was" was a typo.
  #1419  
Old 09-24-2017, 07:25 PM
Ukulele Ike Ukulele Ike is offline
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If Cruz and Lee are coming out against it, will McConnell not bother with the vote?

And how incensed will Trump, the Koch Bros, and the mouth-breathing base be with the "RINOs in the Senate"?
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  #1420  
Old 09-24-2017, 07:32 PM
Tarwater Tarwater is offline
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Just FYI, but Cassidy is planning on revealing a revised bill on Monday. In addition to dodging the initial CBO assessment, which is also due Monday, I'd be willing to bet that Cassidy put in additional garbage to 1) placate Cruz and his ilk and 2) bribe, threaten, or otherwise extort Collins and Murkowski.

Last edited by Tarwater; 09-24-2017 at 07:33 PM.
  #1421  
Old 09-24-2017, 07:36 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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If Cruz and Lee are coming out against it, will McConnell not bother with the vote?
They are still trying to rewrite, including possibly cutting the amount of the already insufficient block grants in order to woo Paul (which would probably work on Cruz and Lee, if they are genuinely hold outs).

If they don't bring it to the floor, it means they don't have the votes, but if they do bring it to the floor, that doesn't necessarily mean they do have the votes.
  #1422  
Old 09-24-2017, 08:57 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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New text is out:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-repeal-243079

Quote:
nder the revised text, the bill's authors now project increases in federal funding for Arizona (14 percent), Kentucky (4 percent) and Alaska (3 percent), which would have seen declines under the previous version, according to a leaked analysis from President Donald Trump's health department. All three states are home to pivotal GOP swing votes who either have opposed or expressed concerns with the bill — Sens. John McCain, Rand Paul and Lisa Murkowski.
  #1423  
Old 09-24-2017, 09:06 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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To be clear, the part about it actually being an increase is not necessarily going to be borne out by analysis. That's what the authors are claiming, not necessarily what is real.
  #1424  
Old 09-24-2017, 09:40 PM
Tarwater Tarwater is offline
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If that's all they updated in their revised bill, they're even dumber and lazier than I thought.
  #1425  
Old 09-24-2017, 09:46 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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You're actually saying the exact opposite of what is quoted above, unless you actually do NOT think the bill will pass, and the "was" was a typo.


Aye, pretty obviously a typo; should be "wasn't".
  #1426  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:17 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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...bribe, threaten, or otherwise extort Collins and Murkowski.
It's pretty clear the attempt is to bribe. But what do we call this - the crab and lobster kickback?
  #1427  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:26 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Collins has been holding out for the CBO score, which of course will be severely negative. That will give her, and quite a few others, the cover they need.
  #1428  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:36 AM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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Collins has been holding out for the CBO score, which of course will be severely negative. That will give her, and quite a few others, the cover they need.
I seem to recall (can't remember where I read it, sorry) that there isn't enough time for the CBO to do a full scoring and that what will be released this week will only be a partial score; implied was that the worst parts of the CBO scoring won't be ready in time.

Oh -- Google tosses up this article from the Washington Post

Also CNBC, which notes that the CBO's estimate of how many people will lose health insurance won't be done in time.

And Slate, which notes the CBO:

Quote:
will release a “preliminary” estimate more or less analyzing whether the plan meets the bare minimum requirements to pass through the budget reconciliation process. That forecast will not include specific numbers about the bill’s “effects on the deficit, health insurance coverage, or premiums.” Those won’t be available “for at least several weeks.”
  #1429  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:40 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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I think the Republicans are going to have a difficult time getting the deal done in time. If you please Susan Collins and John McCain, then you're likely going to lose Ted Cruz and Rand Paul. And still a few others might simply want more time to look at the bill. I think that's probably the way out for some of the centrists who hate this entire effort by the radicals in their party.
  #1430  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:46 AM
Ambrosio Spinola Ambrosio Spinola is offline
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Originally Posted by EddyTeddyFreddy View Post
I seem to recall (can't remember where I read it, sorry) that there isn't enough time for the CBO to do a full scoring and that what will be released this week will only be a partial score; implied was that the worst parts of the CBO scoring won't be ready in time.
This point can't be overstated enough - it's incredibly shocking that the Senate is even considering a huge remake of the entire medical industry based on Lindsey Graham's pre-breakfast notes without some sort of thorough oversight and analysis. The surprise isn't that McCain is balking at the process but that there are mid-to-high-forties number of Senators that aren't raising holy hell about it. They're still rewriting the bill as we speak, for God's sake.

If the ACA taught us anything, it's that health care is hard and that it's easy to screw it up even with the best intentions. Are Senate Republicans really so confident in Graham and Cassidy that they assume there aren't any unintended consequences from their bill? Have they even thought through and understand the intended consequences?
  #1431  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:50 AM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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They don't care. They're just desperate to get something, anything passed so they can tell their constituents they've kept their repeated pledges and abolished the hated Obamacare.

Last edited by EddyTeddyFreddy; 09-25-2017 at 09:51 AM. Reason: spelling
  #1432  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:52 AM
filmore filmore is offline
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This point can't be overstated enough - it's incredibly shocking that the Senate is even considering a huge remake of the entire medical industry based on Lindsey Graham's pre-breakfast notes without some sort of thorough oversight and analysis. The surprise isn't that McCain is balking at the process but that there are mid-to-high-forties number of Senators that aren't raising holy hell about it. They're still rewriting the bill as we speak, for God's sake.
I totally agree with being outraged about how the process is being handled. Even if the bill was for my heathcare preference (single-payer), I would be upset it if was being rushed through without thoughtful consideration and analysis. People's lives depend on these healthcare decisions!
  #1433  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:07 AM
Anny Middon Anny Middon is offline
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If the ACA taught us anything, it's that health care is hard and that it's easy to screw it up even with the best intentions. Are Senate Republicans really so confident in Graham and Cassidy that they assume there aren't any unintended consequences from their bill? Have they even thought through and understand the intended consequences?
I'm another in the "they simply don't care" school. There are reasons why this mess wouldn't take effect until 2020. Primarily among them is that it gives them the opportunity to crow about how they repealed the ACA without subjecting their voters to the soulless GC.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some Pubs aren't telling themselves that they can repeal the ACA and then have three years to come up with a better plan. The fact that they already had seven years to come up with a better plan and they did jackshit won't occur to them.

GOP Senator: Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

Voter: That trick never works!

GOP Senator: This time for sure!
  #1434  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:16 AM
Ann Hedonia Ann Hedonia is offline
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Every time I hear Graham or Cassidy interviewed, they always push the line in the bill that requires states to provide "adequate and affordable" coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. This is their major talking point.

And I'm waiting for someone to ask them if they consider the protections provided by EMTALA ( the long existing law that requires hospitals with emergency rooms to stabilize and treat patients regardless of their ability to pay) to meet the definition of "adequate and affordable".

Because I'm kind of sure they do and I'm kind of sure that is what will go down if this law passes. Yet no one asks that question. It very frustrating, I'd like someone to pin them down on this.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 09-25-2017 at 10:16 AM.
  #1435  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:19 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Originally Posted by EddyTeddyFreddy View Post
I seem to recall (can't remember where I read it, sorry) that there isn't enough time for the CBO to do a full scoring and that what will be released this week will only be a partial score; implied was that the worst parts of the CBO scoring won't be ready in time.
Right, the CBO scoring will only be on the budget, not coverage, premiums, or deficit. And it will NOT be on the newest text, but on the text released... um... not yesterday. Sorry, I can't remember my weeks over here.

Even if you support getting rid of the ACA, this is a fucking stupid way to proceed.
  #1436  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:55 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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If you please Susan Collins and John McCain, then you're likely going to lose Ted Cruz and Rand Paul.
It appears they've lost all four anyway, and more once it's safe to come out of hiding.
  #1437  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:06 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Collins is officially a no. No one trusts Rand Paul, but maybe he's for real.

Cassidy's performance at the sham hearing was embarrassing. He defined "affordable" as "can be afforded."
  #1438  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:28 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Strike six, you're out! No, really, drop the bat and go sit down, you're out.
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  #1439  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:29 PM
Ann Hedonia Ann Hedonia is offline
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Collins is officially a no. No one trusts Rand Paul, but maybe he's for real.

Cassidy's performance at the sham hearing was embarrassing. He defined "affordable" as "can be afforded."
Rand is really an evil little cabbage patch doll, isn't he? But I'm hoping that Mr Art of the Deal put him in a position where RP will look weak if he caves. I'm going to hit Twitter and encourage Rand to stay strong and maybe remind him that if he changes his vote everyone will think he's Trump's little bitch. Settle for nothing less than a full repeal, Rand! Don't play with the swamp critters!
  #1440  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:30 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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... I'd like someone to pin them down on this.
Ever try to pin a blob of mercury with a sewing needle? Hours of fun.
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  #1441  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:34 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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I love my job, but GODDAMN I'M SICK OF THIS FUCKING IDIOTIC WASTE OF MY STUPID TIME, GOP, WITH YOUR EACH-BILL-IS-MORE-RIDICULOUS-THAN-THE-NEXT STRATEGY AND COMPLETE IGNORANCE AND INDIFFERENCE!

On the plus side, my typing fingers are very svelte.
  #1442  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:02 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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Rand is really an evil little cabbage patch doll, isn't he? But I'm hoping that Mr Art of the Deal put him in a position where RP will look weak if he caves. I'm going to hit Twitter and encourage Rand to stay strong and maybe remind him that if he changes his vote everyone will think he's Trump's little bitch. Settle for nothing less than a full repeal, Rand! Don't play with the swamp critters!
I think Rand Paul's stubbornness is a product of his absolutism. The block grants are probably still too close to Obamacare not to be called Obamacare. Paul wants us to go back to the year 1828 or perhaps even back to 1783 when there was virtually no centralized federal commerce. Poor cabbage patch-headed bastard was born in the wrong century.
  #1443  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:03 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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It appears they've lost all four anyway, and more once it's safe to come out of hiding.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see the "need more time to look at it" gang becomes the "Ahhh, I'm against it (I think)" posse once October 1st rolls around.
  #1444  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:06 PM
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So how exactly do the publicly declared intentions of those who said they'd vote no factor into McConnell's and Trump's political calculus on whether to bring this to a vote at all, besides trying to woo them with bribes and changes? What are the chances they will bring it forth on the hope/assumption, like the cynical public, that when push comes to shove, Cruz and Paul will vote with the party?
  #1445  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:32 PM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Nothing like watching the police drag off a bunch of blind, disabled, and otherwise physically disadvantaged people on crutches or in wheelchairs to make you feel good about your country. Not. But good on them for protesting.

Last edited by Broomstick; 09-25-2017 at 08:32 PM.
  #1446  
Old 09-25-2017, 08:54 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Nothing like watching the police drag off a bunch of blind, disabled, and otherwise physically disadvantaged people on crutches or in wheelchairs to make you feel good about your country. Not. But good on them for protesting.
They should have stood for the National Anthem like every other patriot in the room did.

*ducks and runs*
  #1447  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:08 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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So how exactly do the publicly declared intentions of those who said they'd vote no factor into McConnell's and Trump's political calculus on whether to bring this to a vote at all, besides trying to woo them with bribes and changes? What are the chances they will bring it forth on the hope/assumption, like the cynical public, that when push comes to shove, Cruz and Paul will vote with the party?
Two things: first is that the President (in this case, the America-hating fuckstick) doesn't get any direct input into when or whether a vote is scheduled; that's McConnell all the way. The WH can attempt to light a fire under it either by backroom horse-trading or by foot-stomping.

Second, if McConnell knows he doesn't have the votes to win it, he won't schedule a vote.
  #1448  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:20 PM
Leaper Leaper is offline
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But that's what I was asking: there are so many people who are SURE that Paul and Cruz can't be trusted to not vote for the bill if it came up. I was asking, what are the odds that McConnell will think the same, and put it up for a vote under the assumption that the bright lights will change their publicly stated intentions?
  #1449  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:34 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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But that's what I was asking: there are so many people who are SURE that Paul and Cruz can't be trusted to not vote for the bill if it came up. I was asking, what are the odds that McConnell will think the same, and put it up for a vote under the assumption that the bright lights will change their publicly stated intentions?
I would guess, though I don't know this for a fact, that McConnell has a better sense of whether Paul is serious than I do. I don't agree that they absolutely won't bring it up for a vote even if they know it's doomed, but I hope that they will decide they have other fish (like CHIP, to mix my metaphors) to fry.
  #1450  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:51 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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If Graham-Cassidy fails, Graham and RonJohn are wanting a new budget resolution that covers health care as well as tax. What would be pretty wonderful is if the big donors, by forcing the Graham-Cassidy fight, end up torpedoing tax "reform." Here's an article on some of that: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...m-cassidy.html
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