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  #51  
Old 02-25-2019, 03:14 PM
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Kraft was formally charged today in Palm Beach County.

SI.com has an article which features what the Palm Beach County State's Attorney said about the case. As the article contains a graphic description of the contents of one of the videos which allegedly features Kraft, I'll follow the board's two-click rule for the link.



Less explicity, the article states:

"Police said that there is video evidence revealing Kraft was involved in sex acts twice at the Orchids of Asia Day Spa. Kraft was seen at the spa on Jan. 19 and Jan. 20, soliciting prostitution, according to prosecutors. The Patriots defeated the Chiefs in the AFC Championship Game in Kansas City on Jan. 20."

I'm guessing that he was at the game that afternoon, so if the allegations are true, I'd guess that he visited the spa in the morning before flying to Kansas City.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-25-2019 at 03:15 PM.
  #52  
Old 02-25-2019, 03:54 PM
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Interesting updates today:

They had been watching the place for months and eventually got warrants to set up hidden cameras inside the massage rooms. Kraft went there twice that were caught on tape; the night before and the morning of the playoff game in Kansas City. He flew to KC after the second visit. He was caught on camera doing sexual acts. He is nailed.

The normal thing they do for first time johns caught in a sting is a very small fine and mandatory classes on why prostitution is bad and how it often leads to sex trafficking. So it will cost him like $100 and some time in a diversion program. No biggie except to his pride.

My prediction is he will issue a statement that he did indeed engage in those acts but that he had no idea that the women were being trafficked and he is horrified to have taken part in that. He will then announce that he is starting the Robert Kraft Anti-Sex Traffic Fund and donate $10 million to get it up and running.
  #53  
Old 02-25-2019, 11:59 PM
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Maybe we should be arresting the person who enslaved the other person.

Prostitution isn't called the oldest profession for nothing. It "satisfies" a hard wired emotional/physical need that is present in an overwhelming number of people. You're not making a dent in the trade by catching .01% of the customers in elaborate and costly sting operations.

The harder you push, the further underground it goes. That may reduce the size of the "trade", i.e. the total number of prostitutes may decrease, but the opportunities for abuse will not. Sex workers will just become more marginalized and more vulnerable.

This. People clucking their tongues and agreeing with the johns getting arrested are no different from those who agreed with the harsh NY State drug laws, with stiff penalties even for possession of small amounts of marijuana. Buying black market weed funded bad guys who committed murders. That doesn't make weed users morally culpable: it's the government at fault for prohibition laws that create an illicit market and associated violence. The real answer is to legalize, license, and regulate.
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  #54  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:00 AM
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This. People clucking their tongues and agreeing with the johns getting arrested are no different from those who agreed with the harsh NY State drug laws, with stiff penalties even for possession of small amounts of marijuana. Buying black market weed funded bad guys who committed murders. That doesn't make weed users morally culpable: it's the government at fault for prohibition laws that create an illicit market and associated violence. The real answer is to legalize, license, and regulate.
Legalization, licensing, and regulating this industry violates the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution.
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:33 AM
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Legalization, licensing, and regulating this industry violates the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution.
Not if it's punishment for a crime!
  #56  
Old 02-26-2019, 05:27 AM
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Legalization, licensing, and regulating this industry violates the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution.
I think SlackerInc is talking about legalizing prostitution, not human trafficking. They are, interestingly enough, different things.

Last edited by Cheesesteak; 02-26-2019 at 05:27 AM.
  #57  
Old 02-26-2019, 07:59 AM
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I think SlackerInc is talking about legalizing prostitution, not human trafficking. They are, interestingly enough, different things.
But that's the problem. It is SlackerInc who does not seem to distinguish between the two.

This thread is about a john of human trafficking. And SlackerInc is objecting to that person being arrested. But then his reasoning is all based on voluntary prostitution. He keeps mixing the two.

I wouldn't expect anyone to actually think he supports sex slavery. It's just more making a point that you need to keep the two concepts separate.

Though, frankly, I disagree with his logic for voluntary prostitution, too. Arresting the johns (particularly rich ones) is one way to put pressure on them to fight to make prostitution legal.

I do agree that making prostitution legal but regulated would make it easier to catch out those using sex slavery, though. If you could ask for a license before partaking, that would help johns actually rat out the sex slavers.
  #58  
Old 02-26-2019, 08:05 AM
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If people were being forced into being garbage collectors I’d be against it too. But those who choose it voluntarily are fine. I feel similarly about prostitution. If Kraft visited the Bunny Ranch in Nevada I wouldn’t care. I’m sure it wouldn’t even be a news story.
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:26 AM
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This thread is about a john of human trafficking.
This thread is about a rich guy going to a massage parlor for a happy ending. Whether or not Kraft had anything resembling an idea that people at his preferred parlor were enslaved is, so far, unproven.
  #60  
Old 02-26-2019, 09:50 AM
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This thread is about a rich guy going to a massage parlor for a happy ending. Whether or not Kraft had anything resembling an idea that people at his preferred parlor were enslaved is, so far, unproven.
Do you imagine him questioning the hostess and masseuses about their life stories and the amount of coercion they are working under while they rub his penis? Maybe he asks for references and researches the people around them for any indications they were operating under duress?

I think it's much more likely that he didn't give a shit whether his sex worker was enslaved, coerced or just really loves rubbing the penises of ugly, fat white guys for money. As such, he's part of the problem.
  #61  
Old 02-26-2019, 10:01 AM
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If people were being forced into being garbage collectors Iíd be against it too. But those who choose it voluntarily are fine. I feel similarly about prostitution. If Kraft visited the Bunny Ranch in Nevada I wouldnít care. Iím sure it wouldnít even be a news story.
We were able to abolish slavery without making it illegal to farm cotton. There's no reason we couldn't eliminate human trafficking while legalizing prostitution.
  #62  
Old 02-26-2019, 10:26 AM
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This thread is about a rich guy going to a massage parlor for a happy ending.
That's the fun part to discuss. The important part is the existence, and apparently prevalence, of slavery and human trafficking in our own country.
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Old 02-26-2019, 10:32 AM
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We were able to abolish slavery without making it illegal to farm cotton. There's no reason we couldn't eliminate human trafficking while legalizing prostitution.
Amen.

What floors me is why a guy like Kraft would go to such a skeevy place. Verified escorts are generally available for under $500 even after FOSTA/SESTA - chump change for a billionaire. Anyone who hasn't been living in a cave for the last 20 years knows that massage parlors like the one Kraft was nabbed in use coerced labor. There is no excuse for his behavior.
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Old 02-26-2019, 10:41 AM
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A few things to note about the definition of human traficking. As soon as sex is involved, the perspective of the person being traficked doesn't matter anymore. You could have the happiest outgoing person that wants to be there... who will still be considered a victim.

Also, there precious few men that get off on being with someone that is clearly not where she wants to be. Even fewer will actually go out in public and look for something like that. Regardless of the background, the vast majority of sex workers will seem to be very much looking for/wanting to work.

I really don't know how people think this works; you think these places are a row of rooms with crying girls chained to their beds?

Off course this massage parlor could be the exception. And even if it isn't the girls could very well have been exploited there. That doesn't mean clients would know.

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  #65  
Old 02-26-2019, 12:06 PM
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you think these places are a row of rooms with crying girls chained to their beds?

Off course this massage parlor could be the exception.
That does appear to be the case.
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"It was clear to us that this was a trafficking case because of the circumstances I enumerated: They're not leaving, they're there 24 hours a day, the hygiene was minimal at best, just a bathroom," Martin County Sheriff William Snyder said. "So we took it upon ourselves to not do what could be the easy way out ... and we turned it into a trafficking case."
Not only did it appear women were living there, he said, but they were cooking on the back steps of the spa and sleeping on the very massage tables where the johns had done their deeds.
There were other worrying signs, Snyder said. The women didn't have access to transportation, they were moved from location to location and some were averaging as many as eight clients a day. They worked deep into the night with no days off, the sheriff said.
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Refusing to call the women prostitutes, Snyder said the victimized women were coerced, lured to the United States with promises of work as housekeepers or waiters, only to have their passports snatched away once they arrived stateside.
"The problem with these cases is that the coercion is so subtle sometimes that it's impossible for us to uncover," he said. "The coercion is not that they're at gunpoint. The coercion is more subtle, nuanced and more difficult to discern. They may have loved ones in China and they're afraid if they cooperate. They look at the police here as their enemy."
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Contrary to beliefs the women are abducted and forced into sex work, Martina Vandenberg, founder of the Human Trafficking Legal Center, says most women often enter the sex work industry unwittingly.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 02-26-2019 at 12:07 PM.
  #66  
Old 02-26-2019, 12:45 PM
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We were able to abolish slavery without making it illegal to farm cotton. There's no reason we couldn't eliminate human trafficking while legalizing prostitution.
Have I ever said anything contradicting this?

The industry that we are talking about is human trafficking. Prostitution is a tangent. The fact that I referenced the 13th Amendment should make that glaringly obvious. Nobody should try to lampshade this issue by trying to divert attention to the rights of sex workers and abolishing the criminality of prostitution. Letís talk about the rights of women in the workplace while weíre at it.

What makes this a huge story is that this is a place that was taking vulnerable women and forcing them into servitude, and then a powerful, wealthy man who owns the NFL champion football team and is friends with the president repeatedly uses those services. Thatís why itís a scandal.

If legalizing prostitution and regulating that industry will help fight human trafficking, Iím all for it. Iím not even opposed if it doesnít help because I donít fully understand why itís criminalized to begin with, aside from wanting to legislate morality. But again I consider that a side issue where this story is concerned.
  #67  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:51 PM
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That's the fun part to discuss. The important part is the existence, and apparently prevalence, of slavery and human trafficking in our own country.
You're not going to scare guys away from using prostitutes. You're not going to make prostitution and the associated human trafficking go away by coming down hard on the johns.

Want to use this scandal as a jumping off point to actually fixing the problem? I'm all for that. But let's not act like he's the cause of all this misery. If prostitution was properly regulated, Kraft would have gotten his *whatever* from a person who wasn't being exploited or enslaved.
  #68  
Old 02-26-2019, 04:11 PM
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You're not going to scare guys away from using prostitutes. You're not going to make prostitution and the associated human trafficking go away by coming down hard on the johns.
Yeah, that misdemeanor charge is really "coming down hard". He might, *gasp*, get a fine.

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But let's not act like he's the cause of all this misery.
Would you like a side of cowardly lion with that strawman?

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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak
If prostitution was properly regulated, Kraft would have gotten his *whatever* from a person who wasn't being exploited or enslaved.
But it's not. So he didn't. And thus he got his *whatever* from someone who was exploited and enslaved. And, as an aside, legalizing prostitution doesn't magically get rid of trafficking.
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:28 PM
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Yeah, that misdemeanor charge is really "coming down hard". He might, *gasp*, get a fine.
Itís not law enforcement that he has to worry about. Itís what the NFL will do and how this destroys his public image. The biggest damage might be done by the press.

Kraft has been one of the most influential owners and serves on a number of committees. If he becomes a stain then he might have to give up some of that by trying to have a bit of a lower profile.

Iím not sure what the NFL will do. I donít think they can or will do anything as dramatic as forcing him to sell the team or anything. And I canít see them punishing the team itself over this, and of course that wouldnít be fair and would backfire. But theyíre going to have to do something to save face.
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:48 PM
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He might sell the team anyway. He's 77; who needs the hassle?
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  #71  
Old 02-26-2019, 07:39 PM
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He might sell the team anyway. He's 77; who needs the hassle?
Kraft loves being an NFL owner. He's won 6 rings, he's super high profile, he's one of the top 3 owners in the NFL committees, etc. Any hassle he just passes on to his son Jonathan.
  #72  
Old 02-26-2019, 10:00 PM
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Kraft loves being an NFL owner. He's won 6 rings, he's super high profile, he's one of the top 3 owners in the NFL committees, etc. Any hassle he just passes on to his son Jonathan.
Yeah, he could pull a Henry Ford: sell to the son, who would have virtually no say in how to run things.
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Old 02-26-2019, 11:17 PM
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I haven't been following this very closely, but has there been any explanation of why Kraft went to a massage parlor in Florida? As I understand it, he left just after his second visit to be at the AFC Championship game in Kansas City; surely there must be similar establishments in K.C. So did Kraft have some other reason to be in Florida or did he travel there just for the massages? If it was just for the massages, that suggests he knew of this parlor and had been there before.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:11 AM
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I haven't been following this very closely, but has there been any explanation of why Kraft went to a massage parlor in Florida? As I understand it, he left just after his second visit to be at the AFC Championship game in Kansas City; surely there must be similar establishments in K.C. So did Kraft have some other reason to be in Florida or did he travel there just for the massages? If it was just for the massages, that suggests he knew of this parlor and had been there before.
We know it wasnít a one time thing because heís on video twice visiting two days in a row. Maybe it was the only time he ever visited but it makes him a repeat customer.
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Old 02-27-2019, 07:01 AM
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I haven't been following this very closely, but has there been any explanation of why Kraft went to a massage parlor in Florida? As I understand it, he left just after his second visit to be at the AFC Championship game in Kansas City; surely there must be similar establishments in K.C. So did Kraft have some other reason to be in Florida or did he travel there just for the massages? If it was just for the massages, that suggests he knew of this parlor and had been there before.
His Palm Beach mansion is about 10 minutes from that particular massage parlor, so it's likely he was a regular there. The descriptions that kenobi 65 linked above say he and [REDACTED] hugged a few times, which strikes me as implying they knew each other at least a bit. Whereas in KC he'd be in the hands of a stranger.

Last edited by muldoonthief; 02-27-2019 at 07:02 AM.
  #76  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:11 AM
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Hmmm... The news and commentary, as we are seeing it, is not predominantly "Trafficking ring busted". The news is Kraft, Kraft, Kraft, Kraft, rub-n-tug, rub-n-tug, rub-n-tug.

So it does send the message that outing wealthy patrons will bring attention to the problem.

BUT it also says, Public Opinion will care far more about how it affects the wealthy patrons.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 02-27-2019 at 07:11 AM.
  #77  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:23 AM
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Amen.

What floors me is why a guy like Kraft would go to such a skeevy place..
Maybe Tom Brady deflated all of his blowup dolls?


Legalization and licensing of prostitution can be done while at the same time combating human trafficking. So a rich guy goes to a massage parlor to get his rocks off. Maybe he's too damn cheap for a high end escort. I'm puzzled as to why I should care.
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Old 02-27-2019, 08:46 AM
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....Whereas in KC he'd be in the hands of a stranger.
:golf clap:
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Old 02-27-2019, 01:13 PM
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Hmmm... The news and commentary, as we are seeing it, is not predominantly "Trafficking ring busted". The news is Kraft, Kraft, Kraft, Kraft, rub-n-tug, rub-n-tug, rub-n-tug.

So it does send the message that outing wealthy patrons will bring attention to the problem.

BUT it also says, Public Opinion will care far more about how it affects the wealthy patrons.
Most of the talk Iím hearing (local sports networks mainly) are focusing on the trafficking and the ordeal the women had gone through. I guess it just depends on what you listen to.
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Old 02-27-2019, 01:51 PM
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Ironically, you'd think that the sports networks would be the ones focusing on Kraft, since this is only a "sports story" at all because he was involved.
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Old 02-27-2019, 02:20 PM
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A few things to note about the definition of human traficking. As soon as sex is involved, the perspective of the person being traficked doesn't matter anymore. You could have the happiest outgoing person that wants to be there... who will still be considered a victim.
So there are levels of victimhood in human trafficking? If they manage to look sorta happy, it isnít really so bad? This may be the most fucked up repugnant thing Iíve read here in quite some time.
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Old 02-27-2019, 02:25 PM
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Given that a significant portion of prostitutes and other sex workers work against their will - from girls pimped by their boyfriends to full-blown bring-em-here-in-a-container sex-trafficking, the point that Kraft maybe didn’t know the plight of these girls has exactly no bearing.
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Old 02-27-2019, 02:30 PM
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Ironically, you'd think that the sports networks would be the ones focusing on Kraft, since this is only a "sports story" at all because he was involved.
Sports reporters are humans too. They can't focus on Kraft without being asked why they're doing that instead of commenting on slavery and trafficking. The Kraft part is titillating but virtually meaningless by comparison - even discussing possible NFL sanctions is pretty shallow.
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Old 02-27-2019, 04:32 PM
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:02 PM
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So there are levels of victimhood in human trafficking? If they manage to look sorta happy, it isnít really so bad? This may be the most fucked up repugnant thing Iíve read here in quite some time.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that someone who chooses to become a (legal) sexworker and is 100% content with that choice and everything it implies (money, johns, hours, club or not, etc), can still be considered a victim of trafficking if another person plays a role in the business (driving, security, making adverts, etc).

Per the definition that is.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:15 PM
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They are. The target was the traffickers, the johns were just a little extra. A way to put out there that "Hey, if you go to one of these kind of place you may be supporting trafficking and you will get publicly shamed."
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This thread is about a john of human trafficking. And SlackerInc is objecting to that person being arrested. But then his reasoning is all based on voluntary prostitution. He keeps mixing the two.

I wouldn't expect anyone to actually think he supports sex slavery. It's just more making a point that you need to keep the two concepts separate.
You know who often has a problem keeping the two concepts separate? The actual law enforcement agencies who engage in these types of stings.

In a significant number of cases like this, they make a lot of noise about trafficking, but end up doing little more than breaking up consensual prostitution rings. For too many cops, "prostitution" and "trafficking" go together like bacon and eggs; where you find the first, you'll always find the second. The emphasis on alleged trafficking helps to drum up support among the hoi polloi because, understandably, no-one wants to express any support for people who engage in actual human trafficking. The term "trafficking" serves a rhetorical function that attracts the law-and-order crowd and attempts to head off criticisms from the legalization crowd, the same way that terms like "gateway drug" and "addiction" are often used by law enforcement to justify marijuana stings and head off criticism of the war on drugs.

As Elizabeth Nolan Brown reported a couple of days ago, Florida law enforcement has been walking back a lot of its earlier trafficking rhetoric, and there's precious little actual evidence that much, or any, coerced prostitution was going on here. Yes, I understand that Reason is a largely libertarian site, and that libertarians get pretty short shrift among many Dopers (including me), but I've found Nolan Brown's reporting on the sex trade to be pretty reasonable in the past.
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Martin County Sheriff Snyder told CNN today that police were having trouble getting one woman in custody to "cooperate" in explaining why they would "go and allow themselves to be trafficked."

"They had the ability, they could've walked out into the street and asked for help," he continued, noting that they often worked long hours and cooked food on a hot-plate instead of leaving for meals. "But they didn't."

Instead of taking this as a sign that these women were willingly engaging in this work, police continue to seek ways to explain away this evidence. (And the CNN host asked why they wouldn't "speak their truth.") Snyder claims that one woman said she was afraid people might hurt her family if she cooperated.

<snip>

Early reports from local news said that all of this was "tied to an international human-trafficking and prostitution ring," but police have offered no evidence of that so far. The whole case is reminiscent of a 2016 sting in Seattle, announced with similarly dire fanfare but yielding nothing but prostitution findings (and a lot of misery for those targeted by police).
Trafficking is BAD, and when it happens it should be stamped out with all possible force. But it also shouldn't be deployed by law enforcement in a dishonest attempt to misrepresent what are often little more than efforts to stamp out consensual sex work. We can argue all day about whether consensual prostitution should or should not be legal, but it shouldn't be conflated with trafficking just to act as a shield for draconian law enforcement crackdowns. As a whole raft of sex workers' advocates have noted, the people who end up suffering the most in many of these sorts of stings are often the sex workers themselves. And as Nolan Brown concludes in her article:
Quote:
Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between dens of captive sex slaves and totally empowered and free workers, but we'll never get there by treating this as a movie-style rescue fantasy.

Last edited by mhendo; 02-27-2019 at 06:16 PM.
  #87  
Old 02-27-2019, 06:31 PM
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I don’t think a lot of so-called consensual sex work is in fact consensual at all- just because someone isn’t chained or locked up doesn’t mean they are not coerced. For the small portion of sex work which is in fact consensual, I have no problem people promoting legalizing it. From the descriptions here, there is little doubt that this was pretty clearly coercive, and classic trafficking. But trafficking cases are as I understand it very hard to make, so often those charges are not brought. We are not dealing with consensual sex work here. I don’t understand why arguments are brought against persecution or prosecution of consensual transactional sex, when so clearly this is not the case here.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:39 PM
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No, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that someone who chooses to become a (legal) sexworker and is 100% content with that choice and everything it implies (money, johns, hours, club or not, etc), can still be considered a victim of trafficking if another person plays a role in the business (driving, security, making adverts, etc).

Per the definition that is.
Please show me that definition. Iím pretty sure Ms Daniels, Stormy, is not considered trafficked because she engages a driver. Regardless, I am supremely unconcerned with the possibility of non-trafficked sex workers being classified as trafficked, when the reverse is so much more often true. It is time that those who frequent Day-spas, or certain clubs in Germany etc realize that they are more than likely encountering victims of coercion or trafficking amongst those from whom they receive services. It may not be obvious, they may have been conditioned to seem ok with their lot, but that is no excuse to be ignorant of the possibility.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:55 PM
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I don’t think a lot of so-called consensual sex work is in fact consensual at all- just because someone isn’t chained or locked up doesn’t mean they are not coerced. For the small portion of sex work which is in fact consensual, I have no problem people promoting legalizing it. From the descriptions here, there is little doubt that this was pretty clearly coercive, and classic trafficking. But trafficking cases are as I understand it very hard to make, so often those charges are not brought. We are not dealing with consensual sex work here. I don’t understand why arguments are brought against persecution or prosecution of consensual transactional sex, when so clearly this is not the case here.
What evidence do you have, aside from your own hidebound certainty? Especially regarding your massive generalization that a "small portion of sex work ...is in fact consensual"?

Last edited by mhendo; 02-27-2019 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 02-27-2019, 07:08 PM
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I, for one, did not know that the workers at this sort of establishment are disproportionately victims of trafficking. But then, I have no inclination to visit such an establishment in the first place. Among those who would be so inclined, would they be expected to know this? If this story serves to make said information common knowledge, that would be a good thing.

As to the conensuality of sex work in general, there are degrees of consensuality. No doubt, the majority of sex workers made the decision to join the industry under some degree of duress, probably most typically that they need the money and have no better way to earn it. But then, there are plenty of people with office jobs who wouldn't do those jobs if they didn't need the money, too, and yet nobody considers office workers to be "coerced", or "enslaved", or "trafficked". Just exactly what level of duress is acceptable? And is the line different for sex work than for any other kind of work?
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Old 02-27-2019, 08:33 PM
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I, for one, did not know that the workers at this sort of establishment are disproportionately victims of trafficking. But then, I have no inclination to visit such an establishment in the first place. Among those who would be so inclined, would they be expected to know this?
Iím pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesnít matter. If you agree to participate in a bank robbery as a driver, you know that robbing a bank is dangerous and could easily lead to violence. So even though youíre only expecting to facilitate theft, if one of your fellow robbers shoots and kills someone you will likely be charged with murder, because as far as the law is concerned the crime you chose to commit could plausibly have that outcome.

Similarly, if you solicit a prostitute itís common knowledge that itís plausible that human trafficking may be involved. Therefore it shouldnít matter if you knew for certain the prostitute was the victim of trafficking. Essentially if you donít want to risk being charged with participating in trafficking, donít go to a dodgy illegal brothel.
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Old 02-28-2019, 11:54 AM
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Iím pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesnít matter. If you agree to participate in a bank robbery as a driver, you know that robbing a bank is dangerous and could easily lead to violence. So even though youíre only expecting to facilitate theft, if one of your fellow robbers shoots and kills someone you will likely be charged with murder, because as far as the law is concerned the crime you chose to commit could plausibly have that outcome.

Similarly, if you solicit a prostitute itís common knowledge that itís plausible that human trafficking may be involved. Therefore it shouldnít matter if you knew for certain the prostitute was the victim of trafficking. Essentially if you donít want to risk being charged with participating in trafficking, donít go to a dodgy illegal brothel.
Do you have any evidence that this is how the laws are written for prostitution and human trafficking? I can find you laws from a number of states that address the type of felony murder situation that you're talking about in your first paragraph, but those laws actually have to be written in such a way that makes clear how they work.

Do you know whether or not anti-prostitution and anti-trafficking laws are written in such a way that simply soliciting a prostitute is, in and of itself, sufficient to sustain a charge of human trafficking? Or are you just making assumptions and drawing parallels for the sake of your personal preferences? If the law works as you suggest, why hasn't Robert Kraft been charged with human trafficking?

And back to the Florida stings, Elizabeth Nolan Brown has another article today that goes into even more detail about the disconnect between the public statements by police and the media, on the one hand, and the actual charges and evidence, on the other. Nolan Brown has been following the police statements, but she's also been looking at the actual evidence and the actual charges, and there just isn't much evidence of human trafficking, if any at all.
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Police from Vero Beach said in a press release that one woman had been arrested for human trafficking, and Florida news outlets are still running with that story. But a simple check of county court records shows that this is not the case. Like her colleagues, the woman is charged with engaging in prostitution herself, "deriving support" from prostitution, and "racketeering," which sounds serious but just means working with others to accomplish something illegal.

<snip>

There is no evidence in initial complaints, the arrest affidavits, the arrest warrants, or subsequent court documents that any of those arrested were using force or deception at the massage businesses. On the warrants, the victim is listed as the State of Florida.

<snip>

If abusive antics were an issue at these places, weeks of hidden camera footage should at least have hinted at it. Instead, nothing on the extensive surveillance footage yielded charges for sex trafficking or other abusive behavior. What it did catch was a bunch of regular massages being given and sometimes additional sexual activityómostly hand jobs.

<snip>

Police originally relied on two details to spin the trafficking narrative in the press: Some of the women were living at the massage parlors, and they "weren't allowed to leave." But Martin County Sheriff William Snyder later admitted that the part about not being allowed to leave was false.
There's more relevant stuff, but I don't want to run afoul of copyright rules, so I can only suggest that people read it for themselves.
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Old 02-28-2019, 12:11 PM
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That does reflect on something I have mentioned in previous threads, that very often we hear talk of “human trafficking” to ratchet up the impact, when the facts would reflect violation of existing pimping laws, which should be enough to act and put a stop to the abusive practices.
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Old 02-28-2019, 07:04 PM
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Do you have any evidence that this is how the laws are written for prostitution and human trafficking? I can find you laws from a number of states that address the type of felony murder situation that you're talking about in your first paragraph, but those laws actually have to be written in such a way that makes clear how they work.

Do you know whether or not anti-prostitution and anti-trafficking laws are written in such a way that simply soliciting a prostitute is, in and of itself, sufficient to sustain a charge of human trafficking? Or are you just making assumptions and drawing parallels for the sake of your personal preferences? If the law works as you suggest, why hasn't Robert Kraft been charged with human trafficking?
I have no idea which is why I was speaking in generalities. If I had specifics I’d cite them. I didn’t claim to be an authority, I was drawing a parallel as a potential explanation if a trafficking charge was levied. And I was also addressing why it might not matter if he didn’t know for certain if trafficking was involved. I think you read much more in my speculation than I claimed. “I’m pretty sure” and “it shouldn’t matter” are not declarations of fact.

Last edited by Atamasama; 02-28-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 02-28-2019, 07:25 PM
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I have no idea which is why I was speaking in generalities. If I had specifics Iíd cite them. I didnít claim to be an authority, I was drawing a parallel as a potential explanation if a trafficking charge was levied. And I was also addressing why it might not matter if he didnít know for certain if trafficking was involved. I think you read much more in my speculation than I claimed. ďIím pretty sureĒ and ďit shouldnít matterĒ are not declarations of fact.
Yeah, sorry, but that's not how discussions of the law work.

"They do this other thing in some completely different situations, so I think that they probably must do something similar in the situation we're currently talking about." Great analysis!

Look, I understand that not everyone's a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. I also understand that, even when people make the effort to research a legal issue, they might make errors of analysis or interpretation, and we should cut people some slack if they're making a genuine effort in an area that is not their profession. But when we're addressing the question of what the law actually says and how the law actually works, then rank speculation and broad generalities and unwarranted inferences from dissimilar situations just don't cut it.

You said, "Iím pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesnít matter." But it might matter very much, and just because a felony murder statute exists doesn't mean that prostitution and trafficking are treated in the same way.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:27 PM
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Yeah, sorry, but that's not how discussions of the law work.

"They do this other thing in some completely different situations, so I think that they probably must do something similar in the situation we're currently talking about." Great analysis!

Look, I understand that not everyone's a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. I also understand that, even when people make the effort to research a legal issue, they might make errors of analysis or interpretation, and we should cut people some slack if they're making a genuine effort in an area that is not their profession. But when we're addressing the question of what the law actually says and how the law actually works, then rank speculation and broad generalities and unwarranted inferences from dissimilar situations just don't cut it.

You said, "I’m pretty sure where the law is concerned it doesn’t matter." But it might matter very much, and just because a felony murder statute exists doesn't mean that prostitution and trafficking are treated in the same way.
This ain’t GQ. I think you got a bit lost. And I think you’ve derailed this thread enough already.

Last edited by Atamasama; 02-28-2019 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:16 PM
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This ainít GQ. I think you got a bit lost. And I think youíve derailed this thread enough already.
Fair enough.

"It's not GQ, so the facts don't matter."

Got it.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:45 PM
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Fair enough.

"It's not GQ, so the facts don't matter."

Got it.
No. Itís not GQ so speculation is allowed. Facts as always are welcome. (Iím still waiting on them by the way.) Piling on someone for speculating about legal matters in The Game Room is just trying to rile things up for kicks.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:21 PM
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Did the police secretly plant cameras in the place, or do they have some sort of security camera footage?
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:36 PM
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Did the police secretly plant cameras in the place, or do they have some sort of security camera footage?
The police planted cameras
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