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  #1  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:22 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
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Another soccer offside question

The game is so simple, except for the offside rule. I was watching Arsenal getting picked apart by Bayern again in today's Champions League RO16 2nd leg. When was the last time any club ever lost to the same club 5-1 in consecutive matches? Would love to know the answer. In all fairness, Arsenal were down to 10 men and all 5 Bayern goals were after the red card to Kosielny.

The last goal of the game was a bit odd, and I thought it warranted an offside call, although not necessarily by rule (since I don't know it, hence this thread). Arsenal back 4 were playing a high line and the ball was passed to Douglas Costa, who was running past the last defender, but onside. When the ball was passed, Arturo Vidal was in an offside position running parallel to Costa, but obviously just ahead. Costa eventually passed the ball to Vidal, who scored the 5th and final BM goal. At no point did any defender run past Vidal. Shouldn't the fact that Vidal was in an offside position when the ball was passed prevent him from being allowed to touch the ball again, until he again established himself onside? To me, a defender should be able to ignore an offside player completely, until he is onside again. Am I wrong?
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  #2  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:41 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Since the ball was passed to him he must have "reestablished" himself onside.

*eta* The clip I watched didn't give a good shot of him offside, but as soon as the ball is past him (and being played by someone that wasn't offside), he's back onside.

Last edited by Snarky_Kong; 03-07-2017 at 07:46 PM..
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  #3  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:57 PM
Kimble Kimble is online now
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Vidal is only offside if he "gains an advantage" by being offside, which has a limited definition: only if you play the ball after it bounces off the goal or a defensive player. (Even if you're in an offside position and a defender tries to clear the ball but ends up heading/kicking it straight to you, you're legal.) Cite: slides 22-26 of this FIFA slideshow on the offside law: https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...e_en_47383.pdf

(I haven't seen the play, so I assume Vidal was behind the ball when Costa finally passed it to him.)
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  #4  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:39 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimble View Post
(I haven't seen the play, so I assume Vidal was behind the ball when Costa finally passed it to him.)
That's correct, but you bring up another good point. If Vidal never got behind the ball again, why is that egregious enough to be called offside? I think Vidal gained an advantage by being offside when the ball was passed because the defenders and goalkeeper still had to account for him even though he was in an offside position. To me, they should be able to safely ignore him. Or else what is the purpose of offside anyway? I acknowledge that this isn't the rule, but I am basically saying that it should be.
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  #5  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:15 PM
Kimble Kimble is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
That's correct, but you bring up another good point. If Vidal never got behind the ball again, why is that egregious enough to be called offside? I think Vidal gained an advantage by being offside when the ball was passed because the defenders and goalkeeper still had to account for him even though he was in an offside position. To me, they should be able to safely ignore him. Or else what is the purpose of offside anyway? I acknowledge that this isn't the rule, but I am basically saying that it should be.
It more or less used to be that way, but they tweaked the rules to try to neutralize offside traps in the 1990s. Before then, instead of "gaining an advantage" in order to be offside in Vidal's case, you only had to be "seeking to gain an advantage." Jonathan Wilson wrote a nice article titled "Why is the modern offside law a work of genius?" a few years back; he also wrote the excellent (if dry) book Inverting the Pyramid on soccer formations and tactics, if that's your thing.
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  #6  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:00 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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A player is offside if two things happen simultaneously:

1) They are in an offside position at the moment that the ball is played by a teammate, and

2) They become involved in active play.

Thus, the moment that offside is measured is the play of the ball by a teammate. Vidal received the ball from his teammate; at that moment, he is offside if he is in an offside position (receiving the ball is the prime example of being involved in active play).

To be in an offside position, you must be:

a) In the opponents' half of the field
b) Ahead of the ball
c) Closer to the goal line (any part of you other than your arms) than the next to the last defender.

As I recall the clip, it was a close question, but presumably Vidal was adjudged not to be ahead of the ball when he got it passed to him by Costa. The fact that he would have been offside on the previous pass TO Costa is irrelevant.
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  #7  
Old 03-08-2017, 01:40 PM
blindboyard blindboyard is offline
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Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
The game is so simple, except for the offside rule. I was watching Arsenal getting picked apart by Bayern again in today's Champions League RO16 2nd leg. When was the last time any club ever lost to the same club 5-1 in consecutive matches? Would love to know the answer. In all fairness, Arsenal were down to 10 men and all 5 Bayern goals were after the red card to Kosielny.
Incidentally, Arsenal also lost 5-1 in Munich back in 2015.
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  #8  
Old 03-08-2017, 02:00 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
A player is offside if two things happen simultaneously:

1) They are in an offside position at the moment that the ball is played by a teammate, and

2) They become involved in active play.

Thus, the moment that offside is measured is the play of the ball by a teammate. Vidal received the ball from his teammate; at that moment, he is offside if he is in an offside position (receiving the ball is the prime example of being involved in active play).

To be in an offside position, you must be:

a) In the opponents' half of the field
b) Ahead of the ball
c) Closer to the goal line (any part of you other than your arms) than the next to the last defender.

As I recall the clip, it was a close question, but presumably Vidal was adjudged not to be ahead of the ball when he got it passed to him by Costa. The fact that he would have been offside on the previous pass TO Costa is irrelevant.
For some reason, I've always found the offsides rules in soccer to be more complicated than anything in American football other than the definition of a catch. Several people have tried to explain it to me, and it's always been befuddling. This post explains it all. I'm assuming the "next to last defender" is there to pretty much exclude the goalkeeper from the equation?
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  #9  
Old 03-08-2017, 02:14 PM
Baron Greenback Baron Greenback is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
I'm assuming the "next to last defender" is there to pretty much exclude the goalkeeper from the equation?
99.9997% (approx.) of the time, yes.
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  #10  
Old 03-08-2017, 02:24 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
For some reason, I've always found the offsides rules in soccer to be more complicated than anything in American football other than the definition of a catch. Several people have tried to explain it to me, and it's always been befuddling. This post explains it all. I'm assuming the "next to last defender" is there to pretty much exclude the goalkeeper from the equation?
No. "Next to the last defender" means exactly what it says. Count to two; the second defender out from the goal line sets the line for being "offside." It can be the 'keeper and one other, or it can be two outfield players.

It's actually an absurdly simple rule to teach; I used to have to do so when I was a Referee Administrator in Northern California for AYSO. Can you divide things in half? Yes? Then you know to only look for it in the opponents' half. Can you identify the ball? Yes? Then it can't happen behind the ball. Can you count to two? Yes? Then you know where you should be standing as a linesman (now called an assistant referee). Look across the field to see if there are any offensive players past that point when the ball gets played (generally forward, though not necessarily so) by the offense. Does the player you've identified touch the ball? Does he interfere with an opponent? If so, raise the flag.
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  #11  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:07 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is online now
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See, now I went and confused myself!

For this exercise, I'll assume the goalie is the last defender. I understand it doesn't HAVE to be so, but that's generally where you want the last line of defense, right?

Player A has the ball, dribbling towards the opponent's goal. Player B is onside. Player 1, the opponent, is the second to last defender, and is between Player A and the goal.
GOALIE
1
o
A
B
If A passes to B, in this situation, B is not offsides, correct?
GOALIE
1
o
B
A
What if A passes the ball to a point behind 1, where B then gets the ball. Is that offsides? Is determining offsides when A passes the ball, or when B receives it?
GOALIE
o
B
1
A
Small town Iowa didn't have soccer past 3rd grade Rec Department level, and the ISU club team assumed I already knew the rules (I just ran around and kicked the ball...I was pretty terrible).
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  #12  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:04 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is online now
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Neither of those is offside. You look at where the players are when the ball is played. So if B if behind 1 when A plays it into space and B 'then' gets the ball - B was onside - because Goalie and 1 were behind him when the ball was played. So it's when A passes the ball.

For the OP question - the reason for that is simple. It makes the game more fun and interesting. As pointed out the rule used to be more strict and that if you were in an offside position and the ball was played to another one of your players who started just onside, your position would put the team offside. That made the game pretty dull (the 1990 World Cup was infamously low scoring). So they changed it. It's better now.

The point of the offside rule, since that was asked, is to prevent attacking players from congregating close to the opposing goal line, incentivizing direct soccer (which is usually boring). So, I'm in favor of the least intrusive rule that can get that result.
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  #13  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:14 PM
planetcory planetcory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
See, now I went and confused myself!

For this exercise, I'll assume the goalie is the last defender. I understand it doesn't HAVE to be so, but that's generally where you want the last line of defense, right?

Player A has the ball, dribbling towards the opponent's goal. Player B is onside. Player 1, the opponent, is the second to last defender, and is between Player A and the goal.
GOALIE
1
o
A
B
If A passes to B, in this situation, B is not offsides, correct?
GOALIE
1
o
B
A
What if A passes the ball to a point behind 1, where B then gets the ball. Is that offsides? Is determining offsides when A passes the ball, or when B receives it?
GOALIE
o
B
1
A
Small town Iowa didn't have soccer past 3rd grade Rec Department level, and the ISU club team assumed I already knew the rules (I just ran around and kicked the ball...I was pretty terrible).
The first two aren't offside. The last one depends on where B was when the A started the pass. If A passed the ball and B ran past 1 to get it, not offside. If A passed the ball with B already past 1, offside.
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  #14  
Old 03-08-2017, 05:03 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is online now
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Originally Posted by planetcory View Post
The first two aren't offside. The last one depends on where B was when the A started the pass. If A passed the ball and B ran past 1 to get it, not offside. If A passed the ball with B already past 1, offside.
Got it. I intended the first example to be a starting point for the latter two, but it all makes sense.

Next question. Assume player B has the ball instead of A, in the first diagram. A is still not offsides, because A is not behind 1, correct?

I'll become a soccer fan yet, just you wait.
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  #15  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:30 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
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Since this is the only current soccer thread, I hope you are able to watch the Barcelona - PSG game that was played today. I won't spoil it, except I highly recommend you do.
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  #16  
Old 03-09-2017, 01:07 PM
planetcory planetcory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Got it. I intended the first example to be a starting point for the latter two, but it all makes sense.

Next question. Assume player B has the ball instead of A, in the first diagram. A is still not offsides, because A is not behind 1, correct?

I'll become a soccer fan yet, just you wait.
Exactly, in the first scenario, neither of them would be offside no matter who has the ball because neither of them is behind 1. Doesn't matter if the ball is passed forward or backward or sideways. They're in front of 1, so no offside.
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  #17  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:23 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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It should be noted that it is irrelevant where the ball goes when played in determining offside (a quirk of the rule). Thus, if you are in an offside position when it is played, and you come back to a position that would be ONside to touch the ball, you're still offside. The ball can even go backward, and you go backward even more to get to it, and you'll be offside. Only one point in time matters for the determination: where were you when it was last played by your teammate. As an assistant referee, you simply note the potential offside, and wait to see what happens.
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  #18  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:17 PM
Wallaby Wallaby is offline
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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
99.9997% (approx.) of the time, yes.
Here's the classic, confusing, 0.0003% occurrence.

Even the commentator keeps on insisting the referee got it wrong.

Check the goalkeeper.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9EF-BDWxTs
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  #19  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:29 PM
Rysto Rysto is online now
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Originally Posted by Wallaby View Post
Here's the classic, confusing, 0.0003% occurrence.
The best part of this is that whoever was handling the instant replay obviously did know the rule, as they clearly used the goalkeeper as the man who determined the offside line and coloured the area behind him to indicate it was offside. Yet the commentator completely missed that.
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  #20  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:47 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Sadly, it is a generally true statement that soccer commentators, especially the color men, don't know the laws of soccer well at all. Listening to them talk about decisions on offside and on handling the ball always cause me to cringe.
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  #21  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:14 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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If we want to make it more confusing we can throw in "offsides player doesn't touch ball but creates advantage for his team"

1. Offsides player is standing right by goalie who dives for ball but dives into offsides player

2. Offsides player is screening goalie, hops over shot and ball goes in.

Sometimes you'll see those called and sometimes not.
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:16 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
Sadly, it is a generally true statement that soccer commentators, especially the color men, don't know the laws of soccer well at all. Listening to them talk about decisions on offside and on handling the ball always cause me to cringe.
Handling used to be more simple. "Did the man in intentionally handle the ball???" that's it.

Now they throw in "Is his arm in an unnatural position"...really at full speed those can be tough for a ref.
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  #23  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:32 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
If we want to make it more confusing we can throw in "offsides player doesn't touch ball but creates advantage for his team"

1. Offsides player is standing right by goalie who dives for ball but dives into offsides player

2. Offsides player is screening goalie, hops over shot and ball goes in.

Sometimes you'll see those called and sometimes not.
A player is offside if two things happen:

1. In offside position
2. Becomes involved in active play.

Interfering with an opposition player, either physically, or by being in the line of sight of the player, satisfies 2. But sometimes one can question the failure to call it.
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  #24  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:04 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
Sadly, it is a generally true statement that soccer commentators, especially the color men, don't know the laws of soccer well at all. Listening to them talk about decisions on offside and on handling the ball always cause me to cringe.
Another thing I've noticed is a lot of talk about if the last man fouls it has to be a red. That's not the rule. It has to be denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity, and while that often aligns with the last man committing a foul, it doesn't have to.

Talking incorrectly about calls is still better than them talking about things unrelated to the game like what's being talked about on Twitter.
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2017, 12:27 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Another thing I've noticed is a lot of talk about if the last man fouls it has to be a red. That's not the rule. It has to be denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity, and while that often aligns with the last man committing a foul, it doesn't have to.

Talking incorrectly about calls is still better than them talking about things unrelated to the game like what's being talked about on Twitter.
Yes, well, Twits have little value.

As for handling, as Dale Sims was bringing up, the position of the arm has always been an issue. The Law has stated for some years (in English) that it is a direct free kick foul if a player other than the keeper in his own penalty area "deliberately handles the ball." Note that the word used is "deliberately", not "intentionally." This is a very important distinction. The focus isn't on the intent of the player (did he intend to use his arm to play the ball?), but rather on did he consciously move his arm into a position that resulted in it playing the ball.

Over the years, this distinction has lost some of its value. The classic mantra for some time has been "arm to ball, not ball to arm", meaning any motion of the arm, consciously done or not (compare instinctive reaction), in a way that would intercept the ball is considered handling. But the bit about "unnatural position" still hints at the distinction. When a player is attempting some soccer move, like going to ground, or jumping, is he consciously putting his arm into a place that might intercept the ball, when he wouldn't naturally put it there in accomplishing the move? After all, the arm has to be somewhere, and while it's easy to keep it at one's side, with hands clasped behind one's back while standing up in front of the player with the ball, that's hard to do when trying to make a sliding tackle, or jumping up to head the ball amidst a whole bunch of players in front of goal.

The easiest way to demonstrate the meaning of this is to think of how a keeper comes out towards a break-away forward trying to score. The keeper will have his hands out to the sides, to make himself as big a target as possible. He doesn't know that the hand/arm will actually stop anything, and when the shot comes, he may not have time to even move it in an effort to stop the shot. But he's deliberately putting them out there in the hopes that works. Now, imagine the player in question isn't the keeper. If his arms are spread to the side as he rushes towards the break-away forward, pretty clearly he's doing so deliberately, and it simply doesn't matter in that case that the ball, when struck, goes straight into the arm.

As always, there is an element of subjective determination with handling. Most of the difficulty in second-guessing a referee on the subject comes from commentators, spectators, and even players having no idea exactly how the foul is determined. This is an endless source of annoyance for referees.
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  #26  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:05 PM
Mr Shine Mr Shine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
If we want to make it more confusing we can throw in "offsides player doesn't touch ball but creates advantage for his team"

1. Offsides player is standing right by goalie who dives for ball but dives into offsides player

2. Offsides player is screening goalie, hops over shot and ball goes in.

Sometimes you'll see those called and sometimes not.
There is no such thing as "offsides" in association football.
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:12 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Shine View Post
There is no such thing as "offsides" in association football.
No shortage of annoying pedants though.
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:28 PM
Mr Shine Mr Shine is offline
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
No shortage of annoying pedants though.
On the contrary, there are far less of them than there ought to be.
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  #29  
Old 03-21-2017, 08:36 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Shine View Post
There is no such thing as "offsides" in association football.
In actuality, there's no such thing in American football, either. It's simply a commonly used descriptive term for the offense/offence in question.
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